Drix D'Zanth

Vampire the Masquerade : Ivory Tower?s and Halls of Eldrich. First off, I?m not trying to dissuade anyone who just want?s a good role-playing so I?m going to need you to agree with a few simple rules before even thinking of signing up. 1) You accept there may be mature content, gratuitous violence, and possibly sexual situations in this game. (no X-rated stuff though) 2) You are willing to work with the obvious change of mechanics that I am now about to provide to you. That you trust your character to me and are willing to let me roll for him in order to prevent problems. 3) You have read and agreed with the Harlequin?s sticky "Reminders". If you cannot comply with what he has written then you will be asked to leave after a few infractions. I'm looking for quality here please. 4) You understand that your character may die as a direct result of stupidity and/or luck. I'll do my best to prevent this however, and I'm not out to get you... it's more your decision. 5) You will dedicate yourself to mature, organized, role-playing, attempting to post at least once a day. If not, please notify me through PM or an ooc within your post. The mechanics of the game: Firstly, I am going to be challenging you with a complete change of mechanics for the most part. I am going to be running this game on a Storyteller-Player system. This means you may only post what actions your character WISHES to perform, what your character says, or what your character does/thinks. You may not post completing a particularly difficult task in a single post , or what NPC?s/fellow players say/do/think. This will require extreme detail/dedication to your character?s person and thoughts. This is a game of PERSONAL HORROR. Your dead, your humanity is seeping from you every time you feed/kill, you see the degradation of society around you, you have to commit a taboo act to survive. If you have the Vampire: The Masquerade core book, this will be a whole lot easier. Character creation: 1) Think of a concept, think of a background and write it, what was your character?s mortal life like? What were your character?s aspirations? His dreams? What does he look like before the embrace? How about after the Embrace? What about his family? His job? What clothes does he wear? This is ESSENTIAL, so I'll be expecting a nice long schpeel. Note: you will all be starting the game as the last night of your mortal existence. 2) Select a Nature and Demeanor. Your nature is how you regain willpower, and what?s really inside you under the layer. It?s the "real you". Your Demeanor is how you choose to appear towards everyone, and how they probably view you. People?s natures are RARELY the same as their demeanor. Here?s the list (with an explanation of an outlook using each nature/demeanor) Architect- You build a better future Autocrat- You NEED control. Bon Vivant- Unlife is for pleasure Bravo- Strength is all that matters Caregiver- Everyone needs nurturing. Celebrant- You exist for passion. Child- Won?t somebody be there for you? Competitor- You must be the best. Conformist- You follow and assist Conniver- Others exist for your benefit. Curmudgeon- Nothing is worthwhile. Deviant- You exist for no one?s pleasure but your own. Director- You oversee what must be done. Fanatic- Whatever your cause may be is all that matters. Gallant- You?re not the show stopper, you?re the show! Judge- The truth is out there. Loner- You make your own way. Martyr- You suffer for the greater good. Masochist- You test your limits every night. Monster- Your dammed, so act like it! Pedagogue- you save others through knowledge. Penitent- Unlife is a curse to atone for. Perfectionist- Nothing is good enough Rebel- You follow no one?s rules. Rogue- Those who can, win. Those who cant, lose. You can. Survivor- Nothing can keep you down. Thrill-seeker- the rush is all that matters. Traditionalist- It has always been, so shall it be. Trickster- Laughter dim?s the pain. Visionary- There is something beyond all this. 3) Pick your clan. I will only be letting you all pick from the Camarilla?s 6 clans (The Gangrel left) List of clans, and their flaws. Brujah- As the brujah tell the take, they were once philosopher kings of Mesopotamia, Persia, and Babylon. They controlled an empire that spanned from the cradle of civilization to northern Africa, and collected lore from around the world. In their pursuit for enlightenment, however they killed their founder. For this , Caine cast them from the First City. Since then the Brujah have suffered a decline. Now they are perceived as little more than spoiled childer with no sense of pride or history. The brujah make up most of the Anarchs, luckily the Camarilla took these powerful warriors to heel. Flaw: Brujah are FAR more likely to fall into frenzy, difficulties of frenzy +2 (don?t worry, I?ll do the rolling for you). Diciplines: Celerity, Potence, Presence Malkavian- This clan has suffered throughout history, and continues to suffer to this very night. Every member of the clan is afflicted with madness, and are slaves to their debilitating lunacy. Caine cursed their founder with true enlightenment, which apparently sent their clan founder mad. Throughout Cainite history they have been feared for their bizarre behavior, and sought for their Bizarre insight. Flaw: Every malkavian must choose a real derangement that they will always visibly display. (This must be role-played.) It can be anything, Obsessive Compulsive disorder, Multiple Personalities, Schizophrenia, Paranoia, Megalomania, Bulimia, Hysteria, Manic-Depression, Fugue, Sanguinary Animism, etc. Disciplines: Auspex, Dementation, Obfuscate Nosferatu- The members of clan Nosferatu suffer the most visible curse of all. The embrace hideously deforms them, twisting them into literal monsters. They must shelter themselves away from the eyes of humanity or risk breaking the masquerade. Most nosferatu communities are confined to the sewers. Flaw: They cannot raise or improve their appearance. Their appearance starts at 0. Disciplines: Animalism, Obfuscate, Potence Toreador- Prodigals of the kindred, Clan Toreador indulges in excess and degeneracy , all while claiming to maintain patronage of the arts. To a great degree, this patronage is true, as the clan claims many talented artists, musicians, writers, poets, and other gifted creators. On the other hand, the clan possesses just as many "poseurs", those who would fancy themselves great aesthetes but lack the ability to create at all. Flaw: whenever a toreador sees something beautiful, he/she becomes enraptured and hypnotized by the object. I will roll on your behalf to find out how long before you can willfully pry yourself from the beauty. Disciplines: Auspex, Celerity, Presence Tremere- No other clan is so shrouded in mystery as the tremere. They are warlocks, practitioners of Thamuturgy? Frightening blood magic. They have a tightly knit political structure, forcibly making their subversaries and lessors of the clan blood-bond to those who are of higher position. Legend has it, they never possessed one of the 13 original clan founders. Tremere himself apparently diablerized (sucked another vampires blood, and eventually soul) of another ancient clan resulting in the creation of this elusive clan. Flaw: They are bound to the clan?s elders upon creation. Blood bound. This means they are almost always the pawns of elder Tremere?s schemes, easily dominated by their masters. Disciplines: Auspex, Dominate, Thamaturgy Ventrue- These are the Blue Bloods, leaders of the Camarilla. Forever seen as the corrupt yet rightful rulers of vampiric society. They are the foundation of the Camarilla, and the crown upon it?s head. They tend to embrace from genteel society. Preferring those who can carry on a lineage of royalty. Flaw: Ventrue are fickle and picky eaters. They can only feed from a certain type of mortal blood. This can be anything from the homeless, to children, to only mortals with blue eyes. Attempting to feed from other mortal types results in profuse vomiting. Disciplines: Dominate, Fortitude, Presence 4) Assigning the Points. Attributes and abilities are the first parts of your vampire that you must flesh out. Just how charismatic or powerful is he? Every attribute starts with one point, and you are given a number of points to distribute as you please amonst the attributes. Your attributes are divided into the Physical, Social, and Mental categories. Physical- Strength , Dexterity, Stamina. Social- Charisma, Manipulation, Appearance Mental- Perception, Intelligence, Wits. You are given 7/5/3 points to distribute amongst each category. For example Jill wants to be a smart, fairly powerful fighter, but doesn?t like talking too much. So Jill decides to distribute 7 points amongst the Mental category, 5 points amongst the Physical category, and 3 on the social category. Each attribute (ie. Strength, appearance) starts with 1 point. (except for the nosferatu, their appearance remains 0 no matter what). Next you are given your abilities. Once again these are divided into categories: Talents , Skills, and Knowledges. NONE of these start with any points in them! And you most likely will want to specialize in a few of each depending on what your character can perform. You are given 13/9/5 points to prioritize amongst these three categories. Talents- Alertness, Athletics, Brawl, Dodge, Empathy, Expression, Intimidation, Leadership, Streetwise, Subterfuge. Skills- Animal Ken, Crafts, Drive, Etiquette, Firearms, Melee, Performance, Security, Stealth, Survival. Knowledges- Academics, Computer, Finance, Investigation, Law, Linguistics, Medicine, occult, Politicos, and Science. IMPORTANT NOTE: All attributes are on a scale from 1-5, 1 being weak, 5 being human apex-inhumanly powerful. Abilities are rated from 0-5. Those with 5 in an ability are MASTERS of their fields. 5) Disciplines: You will notice with each clan is listed 3 disciplines. Disciplines are what give a vampire his true power over a simple mortal. These are the gifts Caine has bestowed upon your lineage. You may distribute 3 points across any of the disciplines. These are like magical powers evoked through spending blood. I?ll provide a brief explanation of what the diciplines are like. Once you choose your Diciplines, I?ll show you what each level of the discipline grants you. Annimalism- Supernatural affinity with and control of animals. Auspex- Extrasensory perception, awareness and premonitions. Celerity- Supernatural quickness/speed Dementation- the ability to make a victim mad. Dominate- Mind control through a gaze. Fortitude- Unearthly toughness, the only way to resist sunlight and fire. Obfuscate- The ability to remain obscure and unseen, even in crowds. Potence- Unearthly physical strength. Presence- The ability to attract, sway and control crowds. Thaumaturgy- The study and Practice of Blood magic. 6) Backgrounds- Was your character rich? Did a vampire of greater power than the norm embrace you? Is she famous in the mortal world? Does she have contacts ? Allies? Distribute 5 points amongst these backgrounds as you see fit. These backgrounds have an influence on what your character can do and what power your character may have outside personal influence. The list: Allies- Human confederates, usually family or friends. Contacts- the number of information sources the character posesses. Fame- How well-known the character is among mortals. Generation- How far removed from Cain through blood the character is. Each point lowers the generation by 1 (characters start at 13th) Influence- The character?s political power within mortal society. Mentor- Special: Every character in this game will take this background at 3? they do not need to spend any points in this background, it will be explained in game. Resources- Wealth, belongings and monthly income. Retainers- Followers, guards, servants, ghouls, butlers, etc. 7) Virtues- These represent what is at the core of your heart and being.. these will be associated a lot in rolls that I?ll be doing for you. But consider your virtues wisely. Every virtue start off with one point, you are given seven more to distribute amongst the virtues as you will. Virtues are on a scale from 1-5. Conscience- governs how much your character can deal with what is right and wrong. Associated predominately with the loss of humanity. Self-Control- this virtue determines how readily she maintains her composure when dealing with extreme Hunger, or the "Beast". Courage- This is the vampire?s ability to withstand Rotschreck , or the absolute fear-induced frenzy from a vampire?s fear of fire, sunlight, or other things that even undead dread. 8) Determine willpower. Willpower is equal to your courage rating. That means it starts out from 1-5. I would GREATLY encourage you to increase your permanent willpower through freebie points (This will be explained later). What is willpower used for? -Spend a willpower point to gain an automatic success on a single action. Only one point per turn may be spent in this matter. -Spend a willpower to resist an action that may occur due to instinct, such as leaping through a patch of sunlight, or stepping back from a chasm. -Spend a willpower to prevent a derangement (ie. Schizophrenia ) from surfacing. This will be used at my discretion, malkavians are out of luck in this situation. -Spending a willpower point allows a vampire to ignore his injuries and fight at his full potential even while heavily damaged. How do you regain willpower? Adhering to your basic nature gives you a willpower point. And every sundown , when you rise you gain a willpower point. Willpower can be increased from 1 (spinless) all the way up to 10 (Unshakable) Willpower is also important for resisting some vampiric disciplines. 9) Humanity! This is at the core of the game. Humanity is your character?s grasp on his moral?s from the mortal life. Kill a victim with high humanity? You may face a decrease in the humanity , representing your acceptance as an inevitability and becoming more callused to the perverse lifestyle of the undead. If your humanity drops to 0, you are no longer fit to continue play, your vampire has fallen to the beast within, and will probably be exterminated for fear of Masquerade breach. Humanity is on a scale of 0-10. 10 being angelic. Most humans are around 7, most criminals around 5-6, most psychopaths around 3. Your starting humanity equals Conscience + Self- Control traits. You can get a score between 5-10 usually. Players may increase this score with freebie points. 10) Blood pool. I?ll tell each of you how much blood you start out as a vampire (I?ll roll myself). Your generation determines how much blood in total you can have in your body, and how many points of blood you can spend. Blood is essential for vampire?s survival. The uses of Blood: -Blood can create a blood bond. In essence, taking three drinks of a vampires blood puts you into an almost mindless slave to his any whim. -Blood can create Ghouls. Ghouls are mortals fed vampire blood without being first drained of their own. Ghouls usually take upon characteristics of vampires , such as unholy strength, they are fatally addicted to this blood. Ghouls can live substantially longer than most humans as long as they are fed every day. Ghouls can live in the daytime, so vampires use them as their primary connection to the mortal world. -A Blood point can heal one point of lethal damage per turn. -Blood is required to activate a discipline. -Blood can add one point to ANY attribute for an entire scene (i.e. increasing strength from 4-5) . Every additional blood point can power up the character for 3 full turns AFTER the character stops spending blood. This means Joe, with stamina 5, can spend a point to increase it to 6 for a scene , and spend a point every turn until he wants to stop (to a maximum of 10). So Joe spends a blood point every turn for 3 turns. At the end of that, he?s strength NINE! (samson would be proud). This lasts for 3 turns before dropping back down to 6. Edit: I FORGOT FREEBIES! You get 15 freebie points to improve any statistic. Some things cost more freebies than others. Freebie point costs: Attribute- 5 per attribute point Ability- 2 per ability point Discipline - 7 per discipline point Background - 1 per background point Virtue - 2 per point in any virtue Humanity - 1 per point of humanity Willpower - one per point of PERMANENT willpower (every character starts out with temporary willpower =permanent, eventually spending temporary willpower is like taking from the pool of permanent, ie. 3/6 willpower points left.) That?s about it for character creation. I?ll be posting a sample Character sheet too. I?m going to be screening based on the dedication and quality of your post. This will require A lot of dedication and imagination. Please remember the rules. Remember I?ll be rolling for you. I?ll help answer any questions you have. I will only be taking a few players as this game will become a very deep role-playing experience. Please, experienced roleplayers only. -=== BACKGROUND STORY==-- [I] When I think of New York I have a very different feeling. New York makes even a rich man feel his unimportance. New York is cold, glittering, malign. The buildings dominate. There is a sort of atomic frenzy to the activity going on; the more furious the pace, the more diminished the spirit. A constant ferment, but it might just as well be going on in a test tube. Nobody knows what it?s all about. Nobody directs the energy. Stupendous. Bizarre. Baffling. A tremendous reactive urge, but absolutely uncoordinated. When I think of this city where I was born and raised, this Manhattan that Whitman sang of, a blind, white rage licks my guts. New York! The white prisons, the sidewalks swarming with maggots, the breadlines, the opium joints that are built like palaces, the kikes that are there, the lepers, the thugs, and above all, the ennui, the monotony of faces, streets, legs, houses, skyscrapers, meals , posters , jobs, crimes, loves? A whole city erected over a hollow pit of nothingness. Meaningless. Absolutely meaningless. And Forty-Second Street! The top of the world, they call it. Where?s the bottom then? You cal walk along with your hands out and they?ll put cinders in your cap. Rich or poor, they walk around with heads thrown back and they almost break their necks looking up at their beautiful white prisons. They walk along like blind geese and the searchlights spray their empty faces with flecks of ecstasy. -Caelbros, Prince pro Temporis , New York City. [/I] Welcome to a world of Darkness. This is where the corrupt reign and the weak sustain them. This is a world where the undead and supernatural lurk behind every corner and event of human history. The vampires today are evoked in an immortal duel with themselves, forever combating the loss of what they once had. You are in a system where government unchanging, the CEO?s of your vampiric life will never die off, and never retire. You are stuck at the bottom of this immortal existence. Want to know the worst of it? Or best, depending at how you look at it. The worst is, the mortals can never know. Considering there may be a grand total of 40,000 vampires on the entire face of the world, organized mortal resistance to a vampiric threat would result in their destruction. Therefore every vampire in the fold known as the Camarilla must obey their princes in their ivory towers. They must sustain the [B] Masquerade [/B] and keep their existence hidden, pulling the strings through unearthly intrigue. New York is different. The other major group of vampires, the Sabbat, a ravenous counterpart to the Camarilla, fighting over cities for their brutal reign. The Sabbat believes in a different philosophy, Vampires are not the cursed spawn meant to heel to mortal society. Vampires are the masters of their destiny, meant to throw off their immortal bound shackles. What you believe is irrelevant, you have an eternity to think about it if you play your cards right. The Sabbat has lost it?s grip on New York city and the Camarilla is now the dominant power, after two decades of Sabbat rule. The wars were fought from mortal eyes, secret wars in abandoned warehouses and penthouses, their immortal lives were locked in deadly combat. But the beautiful coup of the camarilla has secured New York for now. A temporary prince was established, no primogen was called to being. Only a few nights past, Caelbros, the Nosferatu temporary prince stepped down. He has witnessed the Camarilla victory and seceded his position. Was this move made too presumptuously? Too early? Who will rise to a position to power? The city is now a gold mine of opportunity. So young mortal, tonight is your last night, you know nothing of the society I?ve explained to you yet. You know nothing of the events that have occurred. There has been no news broadcast of vampires fighting in the streets, they were too careful of that. Tonight is your last night of beautiful humanity, you will descend into a new world of personal horror. So I implore you , my fellow roleplayers, What do you do? *note.. don?t actually answer that question.. just create your character.. PM me for questions, I?ll be screening and decide who plays once I found it suitable. Combat rules coming soon so you can get a feel for the system, and how I'll be handling your combat. Edit: :bow: whoohoo! 100th post :2women:

Oh dear god, please send them back to page 3 so they can read my article. Amen.

From the *****'ing i've heard on the part of Leh, sounds like he still causes trouble in the poor stores today. Poor wall mart :( . Pardon the short post, I just hate mud-slingers.

Hey about military investitures, alot of my family was in the military. My Uncle was a captain in the navy during the Vietnam war, he got to fire off those big cannons! My grandpa fought as a medic on the beaches of Normandy, he helped liberate Paris, then he was sent home after taking a bullet in the Ardenne. He was awarded a Silver Star , I belive, for saving over 50 men's lives in the battle of the bulge. He's a family hero, still alive to this day. Almost al lof his brothers (he had 5 I think) died in that war. He even fought next to my great uncle hank! My great uncle hank was an engineer in world war 2. He helped blow up about 4 bridges. He's still got alot of souveneirs. He gave me an authentic german hat, and some feild glasses (binoculars). My best friend's Grandpa fought on Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. He was captured at as a POW earlier in the war and watched his best friends be decapitated for sport. Eventually the camp was liberated and they found Private Waite (my best friends grandpa) nearly starved to death. Oh and my next door neighbor is a Chinese Immigrant. He was alive during Japan's invasion of China. You know where he lived? Nanking. Read the book "The Rape of Nanking" to try and grasp what he's seen. These people inspire me to realize the freedoms I posess. I would never take advantage of my freedoms.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Original [/i] [B]Did I ever say that they were capable of anything near humanity's intelligence? Did I ever say they will go through anything resembling biological evolution? No. I was stating that they appeared to be showing an emotion of fear and devotion to Trixie. You seem to think animals can't have human-like emotions, and thats fine. Everyone's entitled to they're own opinion fter all, and I'm not trying to force anything onto you. But answer me this. When Stella and Tiger's mother died, they curled up next to her empty sleeping bed and didn't move or eat for four days. Is it anamilistic instict to do that when a family member has died? I don't want to us the word "mourn" to describe their behavior, because apparantly you scoff at that. Again, I'm not saying this to offend or force anything on you. I am only curious to see what you're response is. [/B][/QUOTE] Alright, I'm not trying to force my belifs down your throat either. I belive pets show emotion, I'll agree that they care about certain people, I've heard the stories. I think you misunderstand my argument. I'm not arguing against pets showing emotion, I'm returning to my previous point that Pets shouldn't be given the same freedoms as humans. There is a difference here. Please refer to my earlier arguments, because It is just a big rebuttal to the first comment on the topic, so let's not sidetrack here. As for Stella and Tiger, well give them a big hug from their pal Drix.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Luminaire [/i] [B][color=crimson] Albert Einstein wrote the E=mc(2), but had no idea it would be used to make a bomb. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE] I Just want to clarify something. Albert Einstein wrote E=mc^2 but that is the literall formula for the speed of light, not the Atomic bomb. No offense. I just belive you were slightly mistaken there. However Albert Einstein did help invent the Atomic Bomb. I agree with the dropping of the Atomic Bomb, and in my opinion it was justified. If you look at casualty rates, more people died in the Firebombing of tokyo than the two atomic bombs combigned. Even after the firebombing, Japan didn't flinch. It was estimated that more than 1 million american soldiers would have died in a full scale invasion of Japan. Many more Japanese would have died as a result of that, and their code (as adressed earlier). I think the Atomic bomb was nessicary to shake Japan up enough to end this war, saving the lives of many more Americans and Japonese. As Gen. Patton once said (I belive): " The object of war isn't to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

I want to bring up this controversial topic for the sake of open debate and discussion. So please be civil here, insulting people isn't going to change their opinion. This topic is about the Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Was it entirely justified? I know that alot of you anime lovers consider japan a second (or first) home! Do you think it was right that the US bombed these cities? Please research your facts before posting, any one line run-on sentances are not welcome here. I'll post my opinion after a few posts.

He was rapping, i could swear thats a lyric from a rap song. ( If you call them "lyrics" anyway).

Good point. But I stand by my arguments. I think posting a rebuttal to what he said now would make me sound redundant. No one wants that. But remember you just tried "forcing" your opinions as much as I have, and well I think we both hurt eachothers feelings here havent we? So I put my dedication to this thread to the rest, what's said has been.

Sorry double, just giving my two cents :D . I'm not stalking you, and I do agree my last post was kinda low-blowish on my part. Sorry if I seem that way. I'm just trying to give my personal opinion like everyone else. Don't worry Diago, i'm sure you are a great person, we just disagree on something.

Double Diago, not everything revolves around your cultural "experience". So don't flatter yourself by claiming you burst his "bubble" by hanging around a certain crowd. He probably cares less than I do at this point. Think before you post please. No offense.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RPCrazy [/i] [B] 1) Number two, you are heartless person who sees your poor family "pet" as nothing more than that. A burden on your life and not even close to resembling a friend or family member. You don't deserve the undying love that dog gives you. 2) And complain and justify as you wish. I promise you, I'll ignore every statement. You have claimed that animals feel no emotion and convey no emotion. That's proof enough for me that you have no heart, and nothing will EVER change that point of view. 3) Thousands of years ago human beings knew nothing more than instinct. I think what many of us have forgotten is (if you believe in evolution) that at one point man was nothing more than an animal. He knew nothing about emotions...there were no emotions. Love wasn't love, it was a need to find the best mate and reproduce. Hate was only pain. Anger was pain. Sorrow? There was no sorrow. The weak died, that was that. As you've all pointed out, life goes on. 4) But man kind evolved, didn't we? We learned how to feel all of these emotions and more. We now choose our mates because they make us happy and feel loved, not because "they are the best" to carry on the genes of our kind. I'm sure many of you will agree that there are some couples out there who should not be reproducing. We hate and we kill not because the opposition is a threat to our personal lives, but because they have angered and insulted us. Hell, we've [I]created[/I] the insult. 5) I will give you that today, many of an animal's thoughts are based on instinct. But they are different instincts than what they were thousands of years ago when Man first domesticated the dog and cat. Because everything evolves, and with us evolving, animals have developed their own emotions. Their own very simple ways of knowing that they love their master, they are happy to be in his or her company. They know hate and anger beyond the scope of physical pain into the mental. They mourn the loss of their loved ones. Not as long as we do, but they notice that empty spot where a person once was in their heart. They're getting there. They're where we were when our minds first started developing into what we have today. 6)And please, don't twist my words and tell me I'm saying "that one day dogs and cats will walk and talk like a human." I'm not. Their minds don't have that room to expand like ours did. 7)I'd like to bring to attention the fact that all of you have missed the point of my original post. Granted, it was my fault to assume you would understand the meaning of my words...I hope I've fixed that now. Though, I'm sure someone will read this the wrong way...but oh well. 8)I never meant for it to be taken that animals deserve [B]the exact same[/B] rights as human beings. They are still animals. They cannot vote (like I give a damn about voting...but anyway), they cannot build towering cities of brick, stone, or metal, they cannot carry on the terribly complex thoughts that a human being can do. However, as I've pointed out, they can feel. They know what love is. They know was pain is. They know what suffering is. 9)We have laws in place (granted, often ignored laws, but laws) to keep human beings from suffering and to repay that suffering if it is felt. Our laws concerning animal cruelty and the malpractice of vets need to be looked over to prevent animals from suffering. Lucky suffered. Doesn't matter if Adam is a lawsuit happy [I]adult[/I] who wants fame and money. Lucky went through unnecessary pain as a [I]direct result[/I] of the vet doing [B]something[/B] wrong. That's what needs to be justified. 10)If Adam wins this case, you won't be put in jail for running over a stray cat. You won't be sentenced to the death penalty for shooting a wild dog that's attacking you. But vets, just like doctors, who let their patients suffer will pay for that pain. That's why this is important. That's what I meant when I said "we need a serious rewrite of our laws concerning animal cruelty." [/B][/QUOTE] First a warning: my response will be gratuitously violent and not for the feint of heart :demon: . Just joking. I've taken the liberty of numbering each paragraph so I can respond to your points individually. 1) I would invite you to my house to see how much i love my dog. Just because I don't think dogs and cats should run the country doesn't mean I don't love him. I love Jake like family. Saying that made me cry. That's not very nice of you. :( 2) I'm sure you don't care about what I have to say.. that must be the reason you sent this long-winded breath of hot air through the forums. Probably for ****'s and gigles right? And no, your arguments probably won't change my point of view, usually that takes someone to make me realize something new or different. 3)I don't belive in evolution, so your point is invalid to me. 4) I don't belive they did, sorry again bud :\ . 5. "They know hate and anger beyond the scope of physical pain into the mental." This was an especially funny statement. Maybe someday, in a future life, we shall meet in the "mental". :laugh: Oh ya, I'd love to see your support on the evolution of a pet's psyche. Go back 3000 years and record what pets were like. They didn't change a whole lot. I do belive some pets show emotion, but let's be serious here, fluffy wants the bacon-flavored rawhide over stock dividends. I don't try to give him an excuse, I accept reality. Try it sometime, it tastes good.. reality, i mean. 6) I think you do that well enough for the both of us , champ! 7)No I'm glad you posted this and you should be too. But dont YOU forget that you posted this for a better reason than to have everyone here just mindlessly accept your opinion right? I mean, you wanted an exchange of Ideas here right? No? Oh, well then, nevermind. :smirk: 8)I know this, so lets prevent the pain and suffering of animals by keeping our vetrinary professionals in business here ok? 9)Actually, the fact that Adamn is money grubbing and lawsuit happy has everything to do with the article. Everyone is human, ironically enough, but Adam seems to be less unforgiving of that fact. No, 5 thousand dollars isn't going to make you any happier that your dog died if you [B] truly [/B] cared about the animal, it just makes a sad man who lost his dog 5 thousand dollars richer. This is the pressure that malpractice puts on well meaning professionals that do NOTHING but BENEFIT SOCIETY! Jesus, how would you feel if you were out of a vet cause some kid lost his cat? 10) I, for one, know how much doctors LOVE inducing suffering on their patients! And on a side note, when i think anesthesia induced comas, i think suffering! As for: "we need a serious rewrite of our laws concerning animal cruelty.", I hope you mean "we need a serious reconsideration..." otherwise that wouldn't make sense. Lucky you, cause you got that serious reconsideration today! I'm off to give my dog a big hug, then pray that he never has to die suffering, and no, I'm being serious in this last sentence. -Drix

You know what.. your reply has given me the greatest idea. Tiger and Stella have inspired me to endorse a "cat army" where today's cats can devote themselves to the protection of America's freedoms! They will HISS the enemy away, swiping at their usless AK 47 5.56mm assault rifles, sheilding their fallen comrades with all their 15 pounds of mass (a guess) can provide! Do you get it now? I think it's great your cats love eachother, I'm sure they gather together for regular dialectics once a week. PLEASE PEOPLE!

"Most do" is a sentance fragment! :demon: *cue evil laughter* Now I'm being picky. Oh well, it's for posterity sake then.

GAH, you got me. Note to everyone else: this is why Semjaza is on my Intelligent list. I'm editing so i can hide my tracks from the kids.

Please don't end your sentences with prepositions, it's bad grammar.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Double_B_Daigo [/i] [B] and play the game all the while trying to completely humiliate there opponents or make themselves look amazing. Its really flashy and extremely fun. Every one is freindly and you learn from your mistakes. [/B][/QUOTE] I know when i think of "fun" i think of "complete humiliation".

Unless I'm misunderstanding something. You can't seem to accept Fiasco for his opinions. It's not like he's attacked anyone, or acted upon his opinions. So, technically, Diago and Charlie, you are far more prejudice than he is for critisizing his opinion. I don't care what or who you hate, everyone is entitled to their opinion. tr.v. prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing, prej·u·dic·es To cause (someone) to judge prematurely and irrationally. Wow, it bites both ways doesn't it!

As for your post... *sighs*. Nevermind. I think your grandfather may have gotten a purple heart, it's usually given to those who die or are injured.

One time my toilet's flush handle was broken. The replacement part was a bit too large so we had to push the handle back up .. or the toilet would continue to circulate water. Well a friend of mine accidently plugged the toilet with about 6 wads of paper tissue. The resulting flood covered nearly 3 rooms on the 3rd floor of our dorm. I feel bad for the people that lived on the 2nd floor, that water leaked for weeks. It took the combigned effort of the entire 3rd floor and their weekend towel supply to contain it. Let's just say the local laundromat was VERY busy.

You know what you need? More of whatever you are on, that stuff's gotta be the shiznit.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PoisonTongue [/i] [B]Dude, um... 1) Ever had a baby? By your point, babies shouldn't be considered human or even equal to humans, just because they're helpless and they take extreme amounts of training to become pottytrained and so forth. 2) What do you think barking is? An involuntary spasm? Animals can voice their opinion. You're just too ignorant to realise that. What about when your pet puts their head on your lap or sits there staring at you? Don't you figure they want something? The moment you realize they want something, THEY HAVE COMMUNICATED. The ability to speak does not make one important and/or intelligent. Just look at George W. Bush. He's an idiot--the village idiot no less. He communicates worse than my dog, Sam. 3) So, how do you regard packs of wolves and lions and such? They are self-sufficient. Hell, they have no human influence and/or help whatsoever. They survive on their own, thus making them very much "self-sufficient." 4) If you're so against ppl dying for an inferior being, how do you feel about Henry V? He was most certainly not a wholesome being and ppl died for him. We mustn't forget Hitler; most of his army died for him. So, you have a problem with ppl dying for an innocent and/or helpless (sometimes helpless) dog, but are totally OK with soldiers dying for a dictator's deathly militarial campaign? 5&6) How are humans different from that? Are you really that naive that we humans care about each other? Do you really believe that we humans have actually created a utopian society where we all get along? The "emotion" comment is contradicting. Self-preservation is the PRIMARY instinct of any animal. Why do you think wild animals gorge on a kill? Cause they don't know when their next meal will be. That's instinct. That's self-preservation. We aren't different from animals concerning self-preservation. What was the entire point of every war? Survival. To suppress the other side. Self-preservation. Again, self-preservation is the primary instinct. [/B][/QUOTE] 1. Good point. But babies grow up. Tell me when a dog graduate's highschool and i'll give you points for that. 2. Yes, in fact it is. No wild dog barks, they yip or whine. Barking is only found amongst domesticated dogs. Scientists speculate that barking really has no real purpose amongst canines but to announce their presence. You continue to miss the point. Get a dog to give me a reason why he would vote for anyone and I'll give you points. So before you go off calling me an idiot, try a little reasearch. Sling your mud litte boy, sling away. 3. You miss the point again. I don't think little adam is suing over his pet Lion pride. Are you always this palatible? 4. I'm not trying to merit the atrocities that humans have commited, nor do I consider the life of a dog even worth mentioning within the same context as the brutal course of human history. However I'm talking about your life to a dog's life. Put it into perspective here. They are two seperate Justices. Historically, domesticated animals are lucky to be in the position they are today. 5. Awww man, give peace a chance. Tell that to the Vets of world war 2 who died for the freedoms I posses, ***. Better yet, tell that to your family, I'm sure they will be glad to know you care. 6. My point here was that animals aren't going to care about anything but themselves. If you somehow wander outside your parent's basement long enough to get married, tell your wife that you are primarily interested at SELF preservation. Next time... figure out the best way to make your life better... screw society, rob a bank or something! You seem to belive that animals should be given basic liberties like humans. Very well, you run along, let your animals hold equal voice in your government (or bark, meow, whatever). I'd love to see the day you run over a cat and get sentanced for manslaughter. That's what implications I'm reacting to here poision. You seem to miss the point. So before you try to assume my position on humanitas, Hitler, and the like. Read the whole thread ;). You aren't a very happy person are you :bawl:

Heh, this reminds me of the small children in movie theatres argument, except apparently Oji is the kid, and the stores are the movie theater. In a strictly methaphorical sense, though.

Name it after yourself. Flatter it with that honor.

Go Kent's, it's all relative here. I could quote a song lyric. But you can't take me calling my ideas "genius" literally. Idea's arent "genius", people are, and I've never claimed to be a genius :laugh: ! As for your the expansive wisdom you have gained on Otaku boards, well congrats. I'm glad you've shared the same opinions with the same set of people for who knows how long. I like posting on the big ol message board called the Real World. Let's not pull rank please. I've heard as thought out responses from newbies as I have Otaku, so don't demerit what anyone might have to say. "People notice that" :smirk: Thank's for respecting my opinion, same here.