Spinnelein

Elendira is cool, she just rocks! Had to say it...:D Don't they both occupy about the same level of power? Neither willingly takes orders from each other, or from anybody but Knives. It's just plain old rivalry; there's only room for just one second-in-command, and two people want the job. They can't really just come out and fight each other, because that would probably cheese off K-sama, so instead they settle for mental catfights, wine-slinging, and the occasional giant freaking spike {:blackeye:} through the torso. Legato probably worries less about Elendira taking his job than Elendira worries about Legato. He's pretty well-entrenched, and he rose back into power very quickly after getting squished, much to the Crimsonnail's chagrin. May I offer up my theories as to why she's with Knives? Like I said, there are 4 reasons people put up with guys like Knives, who are just generally unfriendly and a pain in the nether regions. Revenge, ignorance, love, and greed. Elendira's there out of greed - she knows that if she does a good enough job (and she does), she'll be able to buy a few mores years of life and the high standard of living she insists upon. The airship, the fancy dresses, the wine supply, and not to mention the fact that when Knives eventually gets around to killing her (as she expects him to do once they've "won") she'll die happy with a cute Plant-bishounen's face in front of her. :angel: I'm buying the manga at Otakon this summer. Cannot wait...! And I've already seen that site, thanks anyway though.

Tscha, I always forget about those coins! I meant overall, there are very few binding factors that can produce such a deep loyalty - ignorance of anything better (Monev), need for revenge (Hoppered), personal greed (Elendira), and love (Dominique and Legato). I agree - sex is the last thing on Legato's mind, especially now that he's a quadripalegic. I stand by my belief that what keeps Legato loyal to Knives is a sort of religious-fevered love, something like the love a Christian has for God. However, Knives is a tangible "God" and humans do have trouble keeping love and sexuality apart; interpret it as you will. In any case, Legato isn't in a particularly good situation, as Knives has a very arrogant streak and seems to lack any sense of empathy at all. The whole thing is hopelessly one-sided. I don't really understand how the coins affect this. They always seemed like a decorative, last-minute touch to Legato's character. His place as the leader of the GHGs is relatively recent, only coming up after the July incident - he and Elendira had already been with Knives for years. (BTW, what do you make of the little rivalry between Legato and the Crimsonnail?) :confused: I would probably be much more useful if I had the illustrations to go along with the translations...

Yeah, we were suggesting that.:angel: The support for Legato possibly extending his devotion to Knives into certian facets of behaviour is rather overwhelming. To put it bluntly, Legato is in love with Knives, rather hoplessly. It's also as obvious that Knives does not return this affection even the slightest bit, and if he acknowledges it, it's only to abuse that very deep adoration. Whether this is a religious or more earthly love is open, but my personal belief would be that Legato wants to be Knives's lover. Unfortunately the poor creature will [I]never[/I] get his wish. [kicks etheral approximation of Knives] For reference, re-examine some of Legato's facial expressions when he's talking to or about Knives in the manga - particularly the scene where Knives yawns. He looks so utterly wounded...let's all feel sorry for Legato-sama now... Tch, Episode 24 is just a whole other mystery in and of itself. Legato's gone kind of reckless and a little sloppy by this point, his mind seems to be preoccupied with shutting itself down. My guess for his "kindness" to Vash is either that he no longer cares enough to hate him, or that he has figured out that Vash will respond best to gentle, insistent coaxing rather than violence done upon his actual person. His job is, after all, to show Vash just how f'ed-up humanity is. Does pretty well, doesn't he? Sorry if this post is incoherent or excessively disturbing to anyone.

Thank you for being civil, Liebchen.:p OT, Plant_angel: There are four Noble Truths (just plain old truths, really, but Buddhist texts and phrases tend to be translated...very literally...like you can find a "Glorious Sunbeam Lotus Jewel" sutra. It's very strange.) Anyhoo... 1. Life is full of pain and all the living suffer. 2. Suffering is caused by desire and unfulfiled desire. 3. Ceace to want, and you will ceace to suffer. 4. The way to cessation of want is through the Eightfold Path (basic Buddhist practices, the order of which I can never remember) It seems very pessimistic, but it's actually quite placid and nice. All about sitting under a bodhi tree of choice and thinking quietly. I'm glad to answer any inquiries, as it is ever-important to learn about our world. Ahem though... Legato-sama... Sunde, I hope you didn't scare anybody away. Good points, though. He's certainly a very dark personality, the deeper you go the worse it gets. Myself, I feel pity towards Legato, he's a good person just on the "wrong" side. His motivations are clearly rooted in a certian virtue, if you know what I mean dear.:blush:

I typed up a massive reply, and it was promptly erased. Grrr. Anyway. To summarize: The new religious bent of this discussion is very good, very useful. It applies well to Legato. Do you think Knives has replaced God, in his eyes, as Knives has replaced so much else in his life? I'd say so. Would anyone like to comment? More kooky Eastern mysticism - Legato makes a great example of the First Noble Truth ("Life is suffering" or "Everyone experiences suffering"). This extends from [I]samsara[/I], the Buddhist and Hindu belief that life, basically, sucks, and the joy in life is quickly consumed by sadness. It's more complex and less pessimistic than that, really, but that's the short version. It goes along peachily with Legato's world-view as well. Second Noble Truth, too: "We suffer because we desire." The main cause of Legato's misery is his wish to become more perfect in Knives's eyes, an impossible goal. He does everything to please and obey Knives, which only makes the Plant more prone to abusing that adoration. (Jerk.) Urm...I can't stand to retype the whole thing. "Friendship. Trust. Desire. Hatred. You are all flawed. You carry too many unecessary burdens. Only one thing - absolute devotion to Him - ought to be all you need." Think about it. Ciao~

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Plant_Angel [/i] [B]Hmmm, this brings back subjective and objective thoughts of philosophy. Objective is what it is DEFINATELY right as conforms with our society, a basiic truth like Paris is the capital of France as an example. If someone said Paris was not the capital of France then they would definately be wrong. Subjective however, is a like "Strawberries taste nice" which may differ to someone elses opinion, but in itself is not wrong. Saying "Killing is wrong" however doesnt fall into either category, to be objective, a truth, it must be proven that it is wrong, that it is "evil" where to some one like Legato it is more merciful than cruel. Where as if it is subjective, a matter of opinion, then that makes it just as right to differ in that killing is alright because its what the other beleives in. Basically what Im trying to say is that Evil is a judgement in whats most disagreeable with a society. Lets say executing a guy who has been accused of heinous crimes, say murder and theft. This will make both the victims and those who read about it happy right? But is it right therefore to accuse somebody and execute them whether or not they did it to make everyone else happy? They wont know they didnt do it, but thats not the point. Is it evil then to kill innocents, those with nothing to do with it? Is killing evil in itself when faced with the grisly execution Knives has planned? Legato has every faith he will succeed. I would say evil is probably preventing others from making their own choices, from living their beleifs, but then that contradicts those who beleive killing is right, that being their beleif. It is most difficult. Altruism is most defintely not evil, but how many people are genuinely altruistic? It may be a way of honouring some one to clear your own conscience of the guilt of their fate.......see Vash and Rem. Then it is still for your own benefit, but Vash is not evil is he?? He has a fair background of manslaughter though... [/B][/QUOTE] See, the probem is with me. As a very overcontemplative Buddhist, my views of what is and what is not are just...whacked. Even with something as simple as "Paris is the capital of France", I see issues with that. I KNOW Paris is the capital of France, but everything in the mind is falliable. Everything I believe to be true is potentially false. In the future, perhaps, the capital of France will instead be, Lourdes. Then, the statement becomes false. But this has little relevance, I suppose. In Legato's case, he has the ability to kill everyone around him - "every man, woman, and child..." but he restrains himself from doing so. What holds him back? Compassion, or something Knives wants him to do? In episode 15, he has to beg Knives to "only kill half" of the Roderick's gang. Knives wants them all dead on the sin of humanity; Legato wants half of them dead as a lesson. He wants them to understand pain as he understands it, and act accordingly. If killing makes one evil, then Legato is evil. But that is not necessarily so. Actions are merely actions. Like MillieFan said, it all depends on intent. So the question would be, what is Legato's intent? He intends to destroy humanity, because Knives wants him to do this. So, his intent is to obey Knives. This comes back to the original topic of this thread: Why does Legato follow Knives? Also - great news about the manga.:D

From what I've heard (my friend is a ~huge~ Eva geek) it's about a rival company of NERV's, kind of similar to J.A. They send the girl Mana to befriend Shinji and try to weasel information out of him, apparently Shinji and Mana "go out" or something until it's revealed that Mana is a spy. And Asuka is hilariously jealous. Other than that, don't know. Sorry.

Legato and Wolfwood do have some interesting similarities, as well as many glaring differences. They are a pair in that they both have attached themselves to the lives of one twin; Wolfwood as a guide (literally) and Legato as a follower. Wolfwood seeks redemption but doesn't know the right path; Legato has found his "right path" but hesitates at the brink of "salvation" (his death). Both hate each other madly, thinking the other to be a complete headcase/a pathetic traitor. Both are sinners, but then again who isn't? Their situations are very parallel. It would be interesting to write up a full-formed essay, perhaps I'll get around to it someday.;) Heh, forgot to adress Plant_angel's questions... No, I do not have the manga, but I want it desperately and will buy it as soon as I have the oppurtunity (and money, hah). Also, it would be easier to explore the question of Legato's "evilness" if you could please define what "evil" means to you. Does killing others automatically make evil, or is it lack of compassion? It would seem more relevant to try to find out if Legato has compassion or not, compassion being a feeling of oneness with others. I would say that he does not for most people - especially adult men in positions of ill-gained authority - but he seems relatively kind to the women and children he interacts with. He perhaps sees some of himself in their powerlessness? The idea is now up for debate.

Well, seeing as he [B]does[/B] follow Knives...:rolleyes: "Legato", you brought up an interesting point. Bluesummers-sama isn't necessarily evil (I don't believe in such things as "evil" anyway) his philosophy is just very, very different from the norm. He sees humanity as scum, miserable beings who would truly be better off dead; the kindest thing he can do for another human is "anrakushi", mercy killing. However at the same time he [I]is[/I] human. While this might seem like a paradox to many, it isn't really. Legato functions on a sliding scale of worthiness, with Knives at the top and humans (especially slavers and criminals, who he seems to hold a special contempt for) at the bottom. Because Knives has "chosen" him and Leagto follows Knives's path, Legato feels that he is special and better than other humans. This alots for both his extreme arrogance and abject humility, depending on whom he is interacting with. Ahhh, I have too much free time...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MillieFan [/i] [B]The GW pairings and the VashXWolfwood Trigun pairing aren't canon as far as I know. I might agree with you to SOME extent: mostly what I'm against is yaoi fanart. [/B][/QUOTE] No, none of those are canon, really. Trowa and Quatre do have some really adorable scenes, though... and Catherine is Trowa's [I]sister[/I], for crying out in the mud! Ah, but Vash/Wolfwood bothers me too. The fact that some people just slash ~anybody~ bothers me. There is very little canon romance in Trigun - Vash and the priest are just pals, and I personally think all the Plants are asexual. But, from what I've read of the (rather patchy) translation of Trigun Maximum #5, Midvalley and Wolfwood used to be together. Apparently, it did not end well, from what I've been able to ascertain. Also, later on in TM, there is some jealous conflict between Legato and Elendira, the source of which is just...obvious. ;) That's about it. Anything else is fan-created. May I enquire as to what you have against yaoi fanart? Do you mean, like, graphic drawings or just fanart with shounen-ai themes?

;) I'm a girl. Anyway, I've done a little informal study (emphasis on "little") on Freudian and Jungian psychology as related to Legato's subconscious versus conscious. The subconscious is the part that is very primal, instinctive, concerned only with the preservation of the individual at any cost. The conscious, on the other hand, is the cultured, logical part of the mind, the part that is directly controlled by the Self, while the subconscious acts on its own. Say, you're having a hard day and somebody bumps into you. The subconscious immediately pipes up, "Kill them!" While the conscious shushes the subconscious and solicits an apology from whoever bumped you. When we are stressed, the subconscious is more likely to act up and be harder for the conscious to control. With Legato, whose mind was constantly flooded with the largesse of other people's thoughts, the conscious would have been unable to form properly. The influx of foreign signals and the need to simply remain alive would have given his subconscious control of his Self. He would be a literal street-rat, a shadow of a human potential and probably mostly concerned with finding food. Later, after whatever Knives did to him (used his own powers to "fix" Legato's overstimulation problem?) the imbalance in his mind would have resulted in Legato forming a very classical proxy conscious, a very controlled and mannerly facade. The turbulent under-mind is still very present, along with the residue of the voices he heard, but he seems to do a very good job of ignoring it.The whole mess between his ears slips a little after he's crushed in Trigun #3; he reverts somewhat back to his insane mode. I find it peculiar that some people decribe the anime-version Legato as "insane". He isn't, really. In fact he is extremely stable - just with a very different ethical code than what is considered normal. He's only doing what he thinks is fair. And, with such pain and misery that he's been through, the pain and suffering of another (which he can, of course, easily feel) must seem petty to him. He's more of a zealot than an outright psychopath...that would be Knives, now wouldn't it?

I'll edit from now on. :o Plant_angel, I'm sure you meant no disrespect. What is and what is not polite when dealing with the transgendered can be very complicated. It's not something society at large prepares us for, ne? But, ahh, Legato-sama... There are many conflicting theories about him, and not quite enough information. A bit of backstory from Nightow would be wonderful - but as Legato seems quite the enigmatic type (and probably would deny that he even had a life before Knives) we'll probably never know. Oh, well. It's interesting to think how many people, if they had the oppurtunity, would like to be telepathic. However there are so many problems and sufferings attached to that power - imagine the disillusionment of discovering that most people lack depth, that people constantly are thinking disgusting, cruel thoughts. Dealing directly with the subconcious excretement of one's self is bad enough, imagine being exposed to [I]everyone's[/I]...

Gay people exist in the real world, so why shouldn't we show up in anime too? Pairing off two characters who have absolutely nothing to do with each other is no good - it even bothers me - but that doesn't mean all shounen or shoujo ai is bad, or even against canon. In the reverse, "making guys from Gravitation straight" is no good because it's against canon. Fans should respect the wishes of the anime's creator.

As an official Trigun Maxiumum nerd and Legato fan, I would like to give my two cents... My partner in crime and I have staged a massive, ongoing psychological study of Legato Bluesummers (yes, we have NO lives) and have speculated to a point about the origins of his loyalty. It's likely he's had his powers from birth, as I don't see how one could get [B]mental[/B] powers from an[B]arm[/B]. He was probably poor and some kind of street-rat, an orphan perhaps? Such an oddly-colored child was likely to have been thought of as demon spawn and not treated very humanely. On top of that, consider that one of the quickest ways to drive a sane person insane is by exposing them to unceacing chatter - like what an uncontrolled telepath might hear. There was probably very little order or safety in young Legato's life, and it would be a daily struggle just to stay alive, much less to keep from going nuts. Perhaps Knives stepped in at some critical moment, having been attracted by the thoughts of the gifted young human. Knives would have recognized the untapped destructive potential in Legato and would have taken to training him to be another weapon in Knives's arsenal. For the first time in his life, Leagto Bluesummers has a steady supply of food, water, shelter, and someone who has promised to teach him how to modulate his powers. There are also some missing-father issues and resentment of the species that treated him so poorly, maybe? Nightow has said that Legato had a little sister; was she killed? A brainwashed Legato, I think, isn't half as scary as Legato, knowing full well what he's doing and still doing it. He's bound to Knives by his own will and a sense of purpose that he lacked desperately in his formative years. Knives doesn't need to have "brainwashed" him; it would be a redundant effort. Besides, Legato stayed by Knives's side even when the Plant was incapacitated in the July City incident, which would have shaken any mental control Knives was exerting. That Legato did not leave his Master is telling. He is very much a willing slave. That's just my opinion, however. Interpret Trigun as you will, but like Plant_Angel, I have read the manga, and I have way too much fun in psychology class. Oh, I forgot: As for Elendira the Crimsonnail... When dealing with a transgendered individual, it is polite to call them what they consider themselves to be, no necessarily what their chromosomes imply. Therefore, Elendira is a "she", despite being sexually male. [color=hotpink][size=1]PLEASE do not double post. Thank you. *QA*[/color][/size]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo [/i] [B]Hey, you're not the only one who likes shounen-ai...I didn't wanna say it before for fear of being attacked, but I'm a HUGE Knives/Legato shipper... *dodges objects which are being thrown in her general direction* Aw, c'mon! Even if it is a twisted Master/Servant, it's still really good! [/B][/QUOTE] Ah, I thought I was the only one on the board! Yeah, they're really messed up, but Legato ~adores~ Knives. You just can't get around that, and it's really very angsty and compelling. If you'd like, there's a bit of fanfic on my site. I do need the hits so very very much...