Brasil

[quote name='Balmon']Whoa whoa, Siren. Ease up. I admitted a while ago to my stinker of a posting - and others before it. I'm not claiming to be a genius. The paragraph you so intelligently quoted, for example, doesn't exclude me... but for some reason, you chose to assume as much. So before you feel the need to act as the Defender of the OtakuBoards, give it a little more thought, eh?[/quote] Not to belabor this point, but Balmon, the way I see it, I'm not acting as a Defender of Otakuboards. I'm not defending everyone who goes here, and I'm not blindly standing up for the Rules. What I am doing, however, is providing a defense for those less-skilled people whom you've deemed unworthy of posting stories and thus should be punished or reprimanded for their transgressions against an online messageboard's rules that you take more seriously than most here. If simply standing up for the little guy is considered being a "Defender of OtakuBoards," what does that make attacking the little guy for not being able to adhere fully to your interpretation of the OB Rules? "High Prince of the OtakuBoards?" Like James said, an imagination standard, which you seemed to be implying was desperately needed, is an unrealistic idea. We can't expect a 12-year-old Yu-Gi-Oh fan to write Crime And Punishment, lol. It just doesn't work that way.

[quote name='Balmon']While many of the lower-quality posts do come first from newer members, a fair share problems still arise from current members.[/quote] I find it humorous that you're so quick to criticize other members and their RP posts when you've put up your fair share of stinkers. Your now-deleted reply in terra's 'stress relief,' for example. It was clearly rushed and suffered from the same kind of randomized nonsensical narration that those quotes from the so-called "N00b RPGs" suffered from. Adding partially to what terra has said, I think it'd suit quite well to get your own writing at least somewhat in check before you start posting threads about "The quality of RPGs currently in The Arena" and posting these silly criticisms and so forth. Just a thought.

Drix, remember, you asked for it, lol. [spoiler]The night was April 1, 2002. I say "night" because it was probably after midnight. Yes, April 1st. I know, I know. April Fool's Day. April 1st was probably the most significant night/morning of my life. The topic that I'm replying to here is about Hospital Stories, so the cause of my hospital (ER) visit is inconsequential. I'll just say I did something very foolish whilst driving an automobile. The Emergency Room is an alien place. Very few people, without actually having been admitted there, or worked there at length, realize just how otherworldly the ER is. After my crash, I was rushed to a local hospital, into the ER, with pretty heavy gauze wrapped over my forehead, preventing me from scratching my left eye, as there probably was glass in there and as we are all aware of, scratching a glass-infiltrated eye will do nothing but wreck your eyeball. I'm brought into the ER, and placed on a simple hospital bed. After a few seconds, a nurse hurries in...an old black female nurse. Normally, I don't have a problem with anybody, especially old black women, but when said old black female nurse starts preaching to me, in her Southern accent, warning me of the dangers of Hell and the punishment for suicide, I get a bit pissed, lol. But, I can't say anything for a rebuttal, because it wouldn't have been Kosher. So, I keep my mouth shut. Grin and bear it, as they say. After this horridly annoying woman is done with her religious self-puffing, she leaves. I don't even remember her doing anything helpful regarding any medical care...I just remember the preaching and that's it. She leaves and in walks another nurse who was going to draw some blood. Here's where I start freaking out. I can't take needles, at all. They scare me half-to-death. Honest truth. Considering all that I went through up to that point, and what I'd experience after that point, a simple blood test was nothing. Yet, I came close to hyperventilating, which apparently would have altered the results of the blood test, giving the appearance that I was on drugs. Not a good thing, to say the least. I managed to get myself under control a little bit, but it was really the nurse and my parents who got me to calm down. After the blood is drawn, another nurse enters, this time to stitch my eyes up, I think. You'd be amazed just how much blood can come out of a simple gash on the eyelid, eyebrow, or nose. I laid there, half seeing the fluorescent lights clearly, and the upper half through a murky haze of gauze, then the gauze was removed, and the nurse warns me, "Okay, now I'm going to inject some [insert name of novocaine-type agent here] into your eyelid. It's going to dull the sensations there so I can get those wounds closed." We all know what novocaine in the gums feels like. We're all aware of the weird sensation afterwards, when we can't feel our chin and such, but it's something else when that numbness is spreading over your eye socket and cheek bones. There wasn't any pain when I felt the needle go back and forth; I really couldn't feel anything except the tickle as the stitching tugged through my eyelid. After I'm stitched up, I'm told I can get up to wash myself off. The gauze is now removed, so I can see...sort of. I stand up, a bit unsteadily, and more or less walk in the vague direction of a bathroom, with my dad close behind me. I reach the bathroom, and flip on the light. Keep in mind, that the last time I saw myself in a mirror was a few hours prior, when I was cleaning the bathrooms at Boston Market. I flip on the light switch. I realized one thing there. There is such a thing as a walking corpse. My clothes--my Boston Market uniform, the shirt of which is normally a forest green, is stained a deep crimson. There is absolutely no hint of green anymore. My pants, normally dark blue, are spotted bright red. My navy blue sweater jacket can't be seen for the blood and dead leaves, which have also intermingled themselves into my hair. My hair is usually a dark brown; it was bordering on rust-colored. An entire half of my face was red. Some of it was sticky; some of it was dried. Some of it was somewhere in between.[/spoiler] I think I'll end my post there.

I do like all that's been said here, but I think we must keep in mind one thing when we're talking about how the Rebellion is so clearly the "Good" and The Empire so clearly the "Bad." Much like how James brought in Kill Bill, I think Final Fantasy VII is a rather good supplement to this discussion regarding perspective and Good/Evil. I've spoken about FFVII in the past with a few people, and it's remarkable at how sympathetic Avalanche seems. Why are they sympathetic, though? We are forced onto Avalanche's side. Throughout the game, we are constantly bombarded with Shin-Ra's utter lack of respect for the planet and Midgar's citizens, and Avalanche is continually portrayed as defending the rights of all, by targeting Shin-Ra and blowing up reactors and such. In many respects, Avalanche is just a bunch of terrorists...eco-terrorists, if you will. But why do we seemingly ignore (or possibly not realize) the fact that Avalanche is nothing more than a group of anarchists? Because we're looking at the story from their point of view. This has bearing on a discussion about Star Wars, I think. It is said that throughout Star Wars, the Rebellion is portrayed as the "Good guys." James mentioned the "sheer obviousness present in the characters' dialogue," and also aspects of the cinematography and so forth. I doubt one can argue with the Rebellion being portrayed as good, and The Empire being portrayed as evil, but one key point to keep in mind is that we aren't seeing things from The Empire's point of view. We view Star Wars as Leia views it: the struggles of a small, motley, rag-tag group of freedom fighters acting defiantly in the face of their dominant and self-righteous ("Tarkin, only you could be so bold.") oppressors. When you think about it, the Saga [i]is[/i] told "from a certain point of view"--the Rebellion's. Of course they're going to be the good guys, and of course their enemy will be the bad guy. Does this mean the Rebellion is the end-all, be-all, last bastion of hope for humanity? I don't think so. All it means is we're seeing the Galactic Civil War from one certain point of view. I think it'd be very, very interesting to see the Star Wars Saga told from The Empire's POV, honestly.

I think Boba has summed up quite well the conclusion regarding Amidala's incompetence, so I'm going to concentrate on the comparison between Palpatine and Hitler. On the surface, the comparison seems nearly rock-solid. The Empire is a militaristic, rigid, structured organization that is seemingly obsessed with keeping systems in-line. Any attempt at insurrection is crushed, quite brutally. They demand order and unwavering allegiance to The Empire. Simple mistakes have serious consequences, and if one is to survive in The Empire, one needs to shut his mouth. It rises out of chaos; Palpatine re-invigorates a crumbled and feeble economic and political climate, spurning on unprecedented growth. This is not unlike the Nazis and Hitler. In fact, it's quite similar, to the point of being an allegory. When we talk about Stormtroopers, the grunt soldiers of The Empire, and the grunt soldiers of the Nazis, the case seems air-tight. The Empire [i]is[/i] the Nazi party. But, not quite. We know that the Clone Army will obviously become the Stormtroopers, and the transports/ships in the last few shots of Palpatine on the balcony are clearly early Star Destroyers. We can tell from their triangular shape, and the three boosters on the backs. With The Imperial March in the soundtrack over the scene, it's frighteningly clear what is going to happen. For argument's sake, for the Saga in general, let's just say that the Clone Army are in fact Stormtroopers. They are. Even in the Prequels, it's so obvious they are going to become Stormtroopers, we might as well consider them to be Stormtroopers. If Stormtroopers were the "Infantry" of the Nazis, what does that make the Old Republic? To put so fine a point on it, that turns the Old Republic into the Nazis. If we aren't prepared to say that by only Stormtroopers, than let's look at Hitler's S.S. The S.S. were Hilter's elite guard. They were his bodyguards, more or less. Probably one of the most secretive groups in the war, they operated on a level of security and privacy unheard of in the common population. All the citizens knew was that the S.S. was very real. Apart from that, it's safe to say they knew nothing. The S.S. were also very specifically breeded. For an officer to wed, he had to apply, go through an evaluation process. His Intended had to be thoroughly evaluated. The S.S. were breeded, basically. They were a blood-line. What does this have to do with the Old Republic? Let's re-cap what we've learned about the Jedi Lineage: Incredibly secretive group of the most trusted advisors, bodyguards, and elite warriors in the Republic, serving royalty nearly 99% of the time. The Jedi's role of Bodyguard can be seen throughout the Prequels, as Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin are continually assigned to babysit Amidala. In the Original Trilogy, we are told that a Jedi's power comes from a connection to the Force. Force Sensitivity is more mystical than anything else. What do the Prequels tell us? Force Sensitivity, and thus, whether one will become a member of the Jedi Order (Jedi Lineage) is heavily dependent on midi-chlorians, a symbiotic organism found in a person's [i]bloodstream[/i]. The Jedi Order is no different than Hitler's S.S. So, I don't think a simple comparison between Palpatine and Hitler is in order, because if we were to indict Palpatine based on those grounds, then we really should indict the entire Old Republic, and especially Amidala. She just looks worse and worse now, doesn't she? lol This brings me back to the idea that there is no good or bad in Star Wars, because when you examine the good "from a certain point of view," they're ridiculously absurd and inept and removed from any rational thought, and when you examine the bad "from a certain point of view," they're not all that bad. The good side in fact seems much worse.

My reaction to the new trailer: "Eh." The more and more I see of MGS3, the less and less I'm caring about it. For one, the previous gameplay footage we've seen isn't really anything groundbreaking, when you think about it. The highly touted "Camo" feature isn't remarkable at all, because the game is still helping you, by giving you a percentage of how well you're hidden. Hopefully, this feature can be turned off, but from what we've seen/read, nothing has hinted at it being able to be disabled. The Stamina idea is half-baked, as well. Yes, you can die from, kill, and eat crocodiles and such, but when you "Harvest" their meat, you're still getting an Inventory item, which gives you a read-out on how healthy the meat is or how much it will restore your health. For how much Kojima and Konami have been screaming "Organic gameplay" for MGS3, I'm still seeing gameplay "revolutions" that are less than revolutionary. If they wanted totally organic gameplay, there shouldn't be a hud at all, or at the very most, a tiny ammo count in one of the corners. My largest problem with this Camo system is how players are not left up to designing their own Camo patterns. Yes, there are contests, yes they can customize how they look in-game, but no matter what they do, the computer is still going to give them a "This is how much you are hidden" percentage. How challenging is that? lol I'd rather do away with the Percentage read-out, increase the range of color/patterns in a particular location, and give players the chance to evaluate their Camo Rating through [i]visuals[/i], not numerical read-outs. It seems that Kojima is obsessed with giving players freedom? Give us a visual, player-evaluated Camo system, and not a computer-evaluated one.

Since we're talking about Jar-Jar a bit... (taken from my MyO) Queen Amidala is the precise cause of the fall of the Old Republic. Through her lack of leadership ability, her reluctance to take appropriate action where and when appropriate action is needed, and her general malaise and inability to appoint and surround herself with able-bodied and competent individuals that will enable her to lead the Old Republic into an age of golden prosperity, Amidala dooms the Old Republic, and guarantees its collapse and eventual transformation into a dictatorial and authoritarian organization that is better known as The Imperial Empire. --- The story, the core story, is still very interesting. By "core story" I don't mean any of the superficial character development, or actual plot progression in terms of scenes. When I say "core story," I mean what has happened, what will happen, and how it all fits into the bigger picture. While the entire execution of the Prequels is really quite atrocious, even the CG, I don't think Lucas can be faulted for the story itself. The Star Wars Saga is about point of view. I only recently realized that. What "Obi-Wan" (quotes for a reason, heh) says in Return of the Jedi is the precise idea of the Saga: everything is told from a certain point of view. This is what the Saga is. Everything we are shown is always shown from a certain point of view. When we keep this in mind when watching the Prequels, we realize that Luke, Leia, Han, and the Rebellion are really just playing sides. You could consider them to be exercising "the lesser of the two evils." Why is this? The core story of the Prequels. It can be argued with a reasonable level of certainty that the attitude demonstrated by Amidala, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, etc, are the attitudes of the Rebellion. But who are Amidala, Obi-Wan, etc, fighting against? Who are they fighting for? They're fighting for the Old Republic, because they believe the Trade Federation/Separatist Army to be the greater threat. Hell, they don't view the Old Republic as any malicious force, really, just as a cumbersome governing body. But what is revealed to us? Rather, what do we know about the future, based on the Original Trilogy? The Old Republic will be transformed into The Empire, and the "Rebellion" of the Prequels will become the Rebellion in the OT. Amidala's efforts are a lost cause--a misguided cause, because she thinks she is fighting the "right" enemy, but instead lets Palpatine, whom she believes to be her ally, take over during Emergency Rule. True, Amidala may not realize that Jar-Jar is an idiot, but that doesn't matter, really, because by appointing someone who has no idea how to run things, she is now an incompetent ruler. Amidala appoints Jar-Jar because she's playing favorites, which is not unlike a few current leaders. Star Wars has a bit more political commentary than one may think, huh?

[quote name='DetectiveMikeRS']We're not allowed to leave the building at any time. We dont have a courtyard either, according to the rules in the agenda, all food must be eaten within the cafetria, failing to do so shall result in detention from either the teacher or principle. That's word for word out of my agenda.[/quote] Try faking a seizure, then. It'd be even better if you blamed it on the school food. As I recall, school cafeteria food was never the most healthy, anyway. I think it'd make perfect sense for a student to have a violent physical reaction after ingesting a cheeseburger, tater-rock, or lukewarm/cold french fries. I'm telling you, man, fake a seizure. It worked for me.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']I'd say a bigger threat to humans than nuclear war or pollution or running out of cheap fuel or other common concerns is a pandemic of some sort. [/quote] Actually, I'd say there's an even bigger threat than that, and going back to what Drix has said regarding Revelations, Revelations is just a hallucination. The real threat to the world, the thing that will bring about our ultimate destruction is none other than... [img]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20763&stc=1[/img] Phil Collins. Think about it. He's the ultimate evil. There is no other person in the world as capable of the violence he's able to inflict on humanity. And when he begins his ascent to power, we won't be able to stop him, because Rick James died. Yes, that's right. Rick James would have been our savior, but cocaine was one hell of a drug. --- As you can probably tell, I view the End of the World as more of an entertainment than anything else. I mean, human beings have a lifespan of 85 years on average, give or take 10. Unless some dumb n00b on some random messageboard magically unlocks the way to utterly destroy every living being on Earth, I'm not terribly concerned with the End of the World on any serious level. When you think about it, it really is just an entertainment to ourselves to muse over what may happen. It's pretty much fantasizing, and if we're going to fantasize about how the world is going to end, at least make it fun. Write up a Gospel that prophesies Rick James' death and resurrection, and how he comes to realize that he is the Chosen One, and now will face Phil Collins for control of the Earth. I think that's a hell of a lot more entertaining and worthwhile than saying "OMG liek thers an astrid!11 its coimng our way11!!!!"

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Yeah, I am talking about exactly that. I use it very rarely because most people edge-guard enough that it simply won't work and is more than anything suicidal. But occasionally it's a decent escape, and doing a waveland as you get on the ground helps distance yourself from the opponent even more. Hitting L to get onto the stage works ok too, but Marth and some others can smash you even while you're rolling, so it's also risky. The least risky is to get on with A or B I've found. Or, if you're good enough to AND you're feeling lucky, jumping into the air and doing an aerial right at the edge.[/quote] I've found that characters who possess a higher jump are better suited to it. Samus, Marth, Mewtwo (especially Mewtwo, surprisingly), and Ness are a few of those characters who have a floaty enough jump to make it work well. [QUOTE]It depends on who you are perhaps, but with Link it's a bit too slow of a jump to really get a good attack at your opponent with. It's easier for you to get hit instead, I've found.[/QUOTE] Link generally is a slower character, though. I would actually compare Link to Samus, in that they're both heavy projectile characters. In fact, we could say that apart from Young Link, Link's counterpart in Melee is Samus. Now, obviously, both Link and Samus can deal some nice damage with particular melee attacks, but both of their strengths lie in projectiles. The difference between the two seems only in terms of agility, but this isn't a major detriment/advantage to either, because it's only a difference in play styles. [quote]Wavedashing isn't basd on the "tech" flip at all. It's an aerial avoid, but you do it into the ground and your character slides across it as a result. It's not at all what the "tech" is, although it also involves the block button.[/QUOTE] Though, I've read of some players not even jumping to do it. They literally never leave the ground and slide across. Normally, just reading about it wouldn't be sufficient proof, but I've done it myself again using Fox in Great Bay, so, if we were to get totally technical about it, a Wavedash could be hitting the tech while you're on the ground. Obviously, this isn't the case in general, but when a player becomes proficient at the Wavedash, it does become teching on the ground, just with a forward or backward momentum. --- Speaking of Mewtwo, if only briefly, reminded me that he has one of the more useful Mid-Air Evades in the game, actually. Granted, every Air Dodge works in relatively the same way, but Mewtwo actually disappears, and if I recall correctly, we're able to angle it moreso than other characters. There were a few times where I've launched a beam sword--[i]lightsaber[/i] at a friend of mine, which he Air-Dodged and appeared a few feet away. It's really a nice maneuver, both from an evasion standpoint and movement standpoint.

James, ask and ye shall receive. [url="http://kcl.blig.ig.com.br/"]http://kcl.blig.ig.com.br/[/url] The original is on that page, and just for reference, I've also included the image itself as an attachment. [img]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20736&stc=1[/img] What wasn't pirated?

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Not quite. The animation for wavelanding and wavedashing is almost the same. Wavelanding is not the roll, it's also a dash but you do it as you land (the way to do it is almost the same as the tech roll, but you do it not when you're hit back, actually, but just when you jump). It's most useful for jumping back onto the platform from the edge I think. The roll follows what I believe is called simply a "tech." (That ninja flip you do as you land to recover faster from a knockaway.)[/quote] We're agreed that Wavedashing takes place on the ground. The character never leaves the floor, but "slides" along. I've seen it done with various characters, and have done it with Fox. Now, Wavelanding would be a slight variation on that; instead of starting and stopping on the ground, we would start in the air, and end on the ground. Seems that it really is just a Wavedash performed from the air. The process is the same, button-wise, just a different physical foundation, in that Wavedashing is a ground maneuver, while Wavelanding is exactly why "landing" is included in the term: it's a landing technique. When you think about it, Wavelanding is still a Wavedash, just an airborne one. Makes sense. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "jumping back onto the platform from the edge," however. I can only imagine you're referring to hanging onto the edge, then hitting L (or Z in SSB) to quick recover back up onto the stage, which is considerably faster than hitting A or B, but doesn't include an attack like A or B does, very nicely giving the player the option to either Attack and move slower, or become vulnerable while moving faster. It's really quite interesting, and further shows how much HAL Devs paid attention to making Melee one of the more balanced fighting games, I think. If you're talking about actually jumping up into the air after an Edge-Grab (I find that is easiest by simply tapping Up on the joystick), then hitting L to Waveland, isn't it simply more feasible to use that method to attack, instead of getting back onto the stage? If recovery is the primary objective, which it should be, if you're hanging off the edge, lol, I think a Tech Roll from the edge would be much more effective. If there is a need to attack, however, then I think the jump is better suited, because it provides a rather nice window for an attack on your opponent. I do agree that the simple "ninja jump" after a launch into a wall/ceiling/floor, or a simple free fall into the ground, is the "tech" that everything (Wavedashing, Wavelanding, Wall-Teching, Floor-Teching, etc) is based on. When we examine the simple "tech," we see that nearly every quick recovery maneuver, whether Wavedash, Wall-Tech, etc, is built upon the "ninja jump."

Yeah, there's a difference between Wavelanding and Dashing. Wavelanding is what happens when you've just gotten launched up in the air, and are falling back toward the ground. If you hit the ground at an angle, continue tilting the joystick, and tap L as you hit the floor, you'll do a quick little roll, and the recovery time will be non-existent. Wavedashing, however, when executed properly, there is no airborne movement. It all takes place right on the floor. I've found it's easiest to do at first with Fox in Great Bay. The top platform there is quite useful in practicing and seeing yourself Wavedash.

L-canceling is essentially a Floor-Tech, it seems. The only difference is an L-cancel is performed after performing an aerial attack. Though it works with most any character, Link and Ganondorf are said to have the most noticable L-cancels. What happens is, when you perform Link's Down+A aerial, and are falling toward the ground, tap L a second before you land, and it should cut down on the recovery time. As we're all aware, Link's recovery time for that Sword spike was never all that fast, so L-canceling is certainly worthwhile in that regard. I've done it here and there, and it really only helps with the slower recovery times, I think. A character like Pichu or even Samus doesn't have to worry about it. Bowser would certainly benefit from it, though.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Yeah, it'd be nice if HAL had anything to say about it, but even if they have some nice numbers to provide, it's how those numbers matter in play that we should really care about. I'm betting HAL hasn't played their own game enough to judge that any better than other experienced players. But whatever.[/quote]They are the ones who programmed the game, though, so they would at least have more accurate statistics and such. They may have not played the game more than experienced players, but Wavedashing, while HAL programmers probably don't call it that, was programmed into the game, as was L-Canceling, Wall-Teching, etc. So, even though HAL may not have played the game, although, I'm sure their game testers put in some major overtime for Melee's release. When you think about it, it would have been commercial suicide to release a buggy and glitchy game, especially an entry in the Smash Bros. franchise, and also a launch title for Gamecube, heh. I'm sure they put some time in, and I think it would be nice and very helpful to at least hear from them. [QUOTE]Anyway, it appears that the Tiers describe, really, one thing: the character use distribution of a number of expert players.[/QUOTE]I think that about sums it up. [quote]Good job Alex.[/QUOTE]Thank you much. It was enjoyable, albeit taxing on my IE browser, heh. Actually, through the course of the discussion, specifically talking about frames, something occurred to me. It's nothing terribly significant, just a neat observation. When we go back and play the original Smash Bros, it seems incredibly laggy and choppy. I recall last year my friends and I caused the framerate to drop significantly. Playing in Hyrule Castle, unleashing a swarm of Beedrills, which subsequently traps two players bouncing in the air, and two players using a Fire Flowe at full blast will get that game very choppy. But it's not that the game was choppy back then, when it first came out. The framerate has stayed the same over the years. It's just that we've played games with faster and smoother framerates, and now we play SSB and notice slowdown we hadn't seen before. This is going to be the case with Melee in about 7 years, and it's odd to picture the older versions of ourselves, if we're still into gaming, that is, firing up our ancient Gamecubes and saying, "Hey...I don't remember it running this slowly. Did Pikachu always have a frame hiccup when he did Thunder?" It's weird.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]The tiers can be seen as taking into account skill in that it has to be high for them to apply. But relative skill between players [i]shouldn't[/i'] be taken into account, because that's like taking into account relative skills of drivers in determining a faster car. So I think it's not really a contradition in the tiers so much as piss-poor wording on the thread beginner's part.[/quote] Then supply another thread. If you're able to find one, that is. Regarding relative skill versus "absolute" skill, very few things in this world are absolute. Possibly the only absolute is there will always be mindless twits. But in this case, in Melee's case, there is no end-all, be-all of player skill, because those top players you praise are not absolute, are not perfect. This actually draws upon the idea that humans make mistakes. Somebody can be the best in the world, but they're not perfect. They will still have errs in judgment. The Olympics are a prime example of this. Those athletes are the best in the world, but something as simple as an incorrectly executed direction change in the swim competitions could mean a loss. This applies to the "absolute" skill of the top players. They're only human, meaning they make mistakes. Just because one is highly skilled does not make them the greatest player ever. That "Marths that rock" video you linked us to proves this. At one point in the match, one Marth runs right off the edge, with absolutely no reason to from what we can see regarding the match circumstances in Final Destination. At another point, one Marth is trying to recover jump from the right side of the arena, and to Edge-Guard, the other Marth jumps down for a stalled Charge B, then hops back up. This maneuver was wholly unnecessary and that player took a risk that he or she did not need to take. It was clear the other Marth player was not coming back, so why bother pulling off a flashy move like that? It was expending energy that did not need to be expended in that fashion, and is an example of sloppy play. [QUOTE]Players can be of "close enough" skill that character advantages start to matter. If character advantages matter, then they're equal enough in this case. So in one way, the tiers factor in skill, and in one way they don't.[/QUOTE] This is a huge gray area, then. The Tiers either factor in skill or they don't. They are treated as absolute, so we should treat them as absolute on one end of the spectrum, not as hovering in the middle. They factor in skill or they don't. [QUOTE]It bores me. I don't care if I convince you of anything or not, frankly. You agree, whopteedo. You disagree, whopteedo. I might have initially brought the tiers up, but you were the one who outright asked me to keep the discussion going.[/QUOTE] But you do care. If you didn't care at all, then you wouldn't have gotten so pissed and/or offended earlier in the thread. And if I hadn't outright asked you to keep the discussion going, we would not have arrived at the rather significant conclusion point that we did. If it were up to you, Sciros, the discussion would have stopped when you wanted it to, not when the topic was explored to the fullest extent it can be. [QUOTE]Thanks for the heads up. I said what I said to make a point. What's yours?[/QUOTE] Funny, I couldn't see any point in your statement. It seemed to me to simply be stating the obvious, like I did with my reply point. [QUOTE]A "perfect" player's assessment of characters is the most legit one you can have, because that assessment won't fluctuate and addresses something important: how good can you possibly get with [whatever character]? A "casual" player's character assessment is only legit until he or his opponents change skill levels.[/QUOTE] Allow me to clarify here. Because a Casual player is a casual player, and really only just "average" all around, they have absolutely no weight or legitimacy in a discussion held by Casual players? [QUOTE]Lol, I should have put one of your patented "again, I'm not trying to insult you" phrases at the end there.[/QUOTE] Sarcasm and cynicism. It's not appreciated. I include "I'm not insulting you" because you will take it as an insult and overreact if I don't. You have in the past. I'd rather you not deny that. [QUOTE]Urgh. I mentioned Mewtwo as a not-too-viable character, in response to your mention of Kirby as one. I never argued with him being a "containment fighter," because that was never the issue. How he fights was irrelevant. The fact is his moves are hard to actually hit with, which makes him difficult to use well, which makes him not that viable. End of discussion.[/QUOTE] He is a viable character, provided you understand why his moveset is arranged the way it is. How he fights is completely relevant, because you are basing your assessment of his viability on whether his moves are difficult to hit with, which is entirely based on how he fights. [QUOTE]Oh, I understand your analogies and criticisms. I don't agree with them. Why is that distinction lost on you? And yes, I'm pretty much gonna hold steadfast to the idea that you don't know what you're talking about. No offense, lol.[/QUOTE] Do you? Care to regurgitate them for me? The fact of the matter is, I do know what I'm talking about. I've played Melee for just as long as you have, and my observations do have merit, because the inconsistencies and weaknesses of the design and construction of the Tier system are apparent, provided you analyze them a bit, just like how people analyze Melee to arrive at those Tier systems. I think it is only fair to allow that level of critical thinking to question the Tier system, because there has been a ridiculous level of "critical thinking" in determining the Tier system. [QUOTE]Heh, I may have to concede that the stats the tiers may be based on are the stats on the Smashboards page. And not all were collected using precise enough methods, making them bad stats to base anything on. If that particular thread were right about tiers being based on just stats, then that would speak poorly of the tiers indeed. At least their origin. But the tiers aren't just based on that, [b]OBVIOUSLY, since they're VOTED ON BY PEOPLE[/b], one of which would've voted differently (the one you talked to). So they don't just go by stats, because then voting would be unnecessary, lol. And so, we haven't made too much headway in finding out how illegitimate their origin is. (Keep in mind even the stats they may be based on is a speculative matter at this point.) Beyond that, we've made very little headway in finding the tiers to be poor indicators of which characters dominate when handled by the best players. Almost none. So, while I must commend you Siren on your tireless efforts to research these tiers, I'm afraid there's still a lot to be done to make a solid case against their existence. I also thank you for the information you HAVE uncovered, because it's good information to know.[/QUOTE] "(Keep in mind even the stats they may be based on is a speculative matter at this point.)" Even the Stats themselves are purely speculative, because chances are, nobody knows how to accurately measure the characters, by using proper video editing equipment and so forth. Without that, any Stat sheet we may find on the 'net is no better than Mew2King's. Keeping in mind, also, that as of today, there are no other Stat sheets on the 'net, based on our searches. Also from what we've seen in the United States in the past 8 years, voting is by no means the ultimate test of human cognition, lol, and likewise, I think, we can't validate the Tiers because people vote on them. These people may, and are most likely, looking at the Stat Sheet to give themselves a "better" idea as to what characters seem "better" than others. Why is the voting process inaccurate? [quote name='Sciros']Since the tiers are based on at least TWO things (stats and personal feelings of the voters who create them)[/quote] Certainly, a voter has personal feelings about what they're voting on, but if someone votes for Kerry simply to get Bush out of office, without any regard to policies or platforms, they are certainly not basing their decision on any factual pretense, essentially catering to their own emotions. A vote is a vote, true, but a vote voted in a moment of empassioned fury (for lack of a better term, obviously) will not have any substantial value, apart from distorting the results of the poll. If I may go off on a slight tangent... I think that SSBM characters are NOT balanced. I think that some can be taken to higher levels than others, as far as battle effectiveness goes. They're not the same characters for all the settings you can play, but I think that in almost no setting does it not matter who you are playing as. If you don't mind, most of the following of your post is extraneous material, providing background and history and such, and really is pure personal preference, so I'm going to pin-point particular sentences and phrases. [QUOTE]Having seen those [Tiers], I basically figured that those players who created the tiers simply thought the way I did, and also had some good numbers handy to back up their claims.[/QUOTE] What numbers were they using? Were they referring to character Stats? The only Stat sheet we've found in our discussion here is Mew2King's, keep in mind. [QUOTE]Now, the actual order in the tiers is not THAT important (as in, the top I think shifts sometimes, as does maybe the bottom). The top three can almost be considered equal, I'd suppose.[/QUOTE] When we read that Shiek is placed at the top because she is the top character, I don't think the Tier list, especially the Top-Tier, is arranged arbitrarily, even with the Tier class divisions. [QUOTE]And the bottom tiers are a toss-up because no players I've seen have really tried to make the most of them to the point that "Ken" has taken Marth, say.[/QUOTE] This bridges us back to my points regarding the "vicious cycle," actually, and also incorporates BlueYoshi's comments. The Bottom Tier characters stay there because so few people play as them, and because they are at the bottom, people don't believe them to be worthwhile characters. Similarly, Marth and Shiek have stayed at the top because the top players play as them. If the top players, who are able to dominate no matter who they play as, were to start playing as Middle-Tier, Lower-Tier, or even Bottom-Tier characters, we would see a shift in the character ratings, specifically in terms of the Tier list itself. The Tier list is not changing significantly, and the character choices are not changing significantly. This supports the idea that the Tier system is in fact a vicious cycle. [QUOTE]Since the tiers are based on at least TWO things (stats and personal feelings of the voters who create them) and possibly three (tournament results; some have said they're based on them but they weren't in the MBR so they're not necessarily reliable), and these things don't exactly coincide, it's natural that nothing in them is set in stone.[/QUOTE] If those involved in the Tournaments aren't in the MBR, then those Tournament results are certainly not that reliable, provided we believe MBR to be reliable gauges of the game, of course. This calls the Tournament results support into question, then, and combined with the Stat Sheet inaccuracy, and voter personal preference, further weakens the case that the Tiers are reliable. [QUOTE]Well, that was pretty ranty. Anyway, if you Siren happen to uncover the awful truth, that Predators came to Earth long ago and put together these tiers after having played Smash for five minutes, then we're gonna have to be responsible for spreading the word, heh. Because it's bad to swear by such tiers.[/QUOTE] Why am I not surprised a Predator reference snuck its way in here? lol I think I've provided a reasonable doubt enough to start asking questions, actually. Just from our discussion here, we see there are definite questionable areas concerning the Tier list, and the Tier list's design and construction doesn't seem so air-tight anymore. [quote]But I still will always think that some characters are better than others. The tiers as they stand now match my personal listing quite well, so for me personally they won't go away altogether. It'd be interesting to compare my "tiers" (which don't quite match the "official" ones, by the way; I don't completely agree with them myself based on what I personally know) with yours, if you think you can put some together.[/QUOTE] It's unusual that we haven't heard anything from HAL Laboratories or Nintendo regarding Melee's character selection. There has literally been nothing from them regarding balance (or lack thereof) or general "Tiers." Anything from HAL would be official. However, the Tier list that we've seen is not from HAL, and isn't "official." Really, the Smashboards Tier list is just another personal preference list, simply agreed upon by more players that share that preference. It's certainly not the authority on the matter by any stretch of the imagination.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']It says it's only for highly skilled players but doesn't care about skill.[/quote] This is a rather significant contradiction, because when the thread starter makes a special point to say: [quote]The Tier List determines who is the best character by their stats. The higher they are, the better they are. The better chance that they have at winning someone who is lower than them. They use any stages and Low to Very Low Items. Don't worry though, it only effects highly skilled players. So casual gamers shouldn't care about them. You shouldn't let the Tier List change your characters, 'cause each person has a different style of playing. Remember though, Tier List =/ Skill. It's only stats, the player's skill doesn't play in the Tier List.[/quote] There is no player skill involved in the Tier list. However, if you'd like to continue discussing how the Tier list is designed for highly skilled players, but does not factor in player skill, then could you explain how that doesn't make the Tier list rather contradictory? If the Tier list accounts for highly skilled players, but is still described as not being affected by player skill, this needs consideration in evaluating the Tier list's merits. Don't you agree? [QUOTE]The latter part of that means that the tiers will be right when opponents are of equal skill (as long as they're both good).[/QUOTE] But are any players of equal skill? Is there ever a totally even match-up? I think not. Someone will always have an advantage. There are no equal players, even the World-class ones. No two gamers are identical; that much should be obvious, I think. [quote]In that sense, skill is taken into account.[/quote] When there are no totally, completely equal players, and just by saying "this is for highly skilled players only," shows a consideration to player skill, how can you or anyone have suggested the Tier system does not factor in player skill? [quote]And I'm tired of having to repeat myself about this.[/quote] I think you should remember that you brought up the Tier system first. You initiated the discussion point about it, and now you don't want to continue the discussion. I find that questionable, no offense. [QUOTE]Casual play can be between good players.[/quote] Likewise, Casual play can be between mediocre players, highly skilled players, etc. Likewise, Competitive play can be between mediocre players, good players, etc. Any type of play is possible with any type of player. Do you agree? [quote]I have "felt" the tiers while playing, because I usually play 1 v 1 with no items.[/quote] With whom were you playing? What characters, opponents, settings, levels, etc. [quote]Even if there were no widely accepted tiers as there are, if I had to rank characters from best to worst based on my games, I'd have a similar list. I think the tier list can have a bearing on casual play if the players are good enough.[/quote] When the players become "good enough" to have the Tier list apply to them, are they Casual players anymore? [quote]And we were comparing characters, which can only be legit if you look at the "best those characters can be." At least that's how I feel.[/QUOTE] And who is deciding on those characters' full potential? Players who have devoted their life to the game, it seems. How does using a "perfect" player's assessment of the characters in judging a Casual player's character assessment suddenly make the entire discussion legit? If anything, it introduces an element that is incredibly skewed and unrelated. [QUOTE]Well, if the tiers apply exclusively to skilled players, and you claim they don't apply to you...well you're welcome to decipher that however you want.[/QUOTE] I notice you left out "highly" there, and I assume it was for a reason. Sciros, do desist with the insults, either overt or subtle. [QUOTE]I'm saying that you can't compare characters and say which one's better when you're looking at them played by average players, because "average" can mean a lot of things and it always implies that the characters aren't played to their fullest.[/QUOTE] Are you average? Am I average? Is Desbreko average? I seriously doubt any of us are the "middle of the road" players, who are so-so at the game. If Desbreko and I were merely "average" at Melee, having "average" knowledge of the characters and so forth, would we be able to discuss the game at-length? I think not. [QUOTE]As for the Mewtwo discussion, I said that every move he has besides his throw is difficult to connect with. Please understand my English. I don't want to discuss him any further because I don't care enough.[/QUOTE] If you don't care enough to further discuss it, why did you raise the topic of Mewtwo in the first place? Again, you are desiring to stop discussing a point that you yourself began. Regarding Mewtwo, you seem to disagree with my analysis of him, and his being a Containment Fighter, let's see what Jason says. [quote][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:12 AM): (btw i forgot to vote in MBR in teh "final tier list")[/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:15 AM): (****)[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:41:23 AM): Heh.[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:31 AM): i could have changed it prolly[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:40 AM): Pichu >>>>>>>> Bowser[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:44 AM): because of speed[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:52 AM): cant kill if u cant even hit[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:42:00 AM): I find that Pichu is a "Better" character than many in the Bottom/Lower Tiers, honestly.[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:06 AM): yes[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:09 AM): he is[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:15 AM): that part of teh tiers in ****** up[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:39 AM): the key to not sucking with Mew2[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:54 AM): is his tilt attacks believe it or not, that and Wdashing[/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:00 AM): ::nods::[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:04 AM): tilt down a, and forward tilt[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:10 AM): esp. down tilt[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:16 AM): great starter move[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:31 AM): Would you agree with the assessment of Mewtwo being a Containment fighter?[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:31 AM): but takes practice[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:37 AM): ?[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:40 AM): containment?[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:44 AM): Yes, in that,[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:53 AM): most of his moves are designed to keep the enemy off-balance,[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:44:04 AM): and while they may not be uber-powerful,[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:44:15 AM): they're annoying-like[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:44:16 AM): they are more designed to **** with the enemy's movement.[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:44:20 AM): yes[/quote][/font] [font=Arial][/font] [font=Arial]Interesting that he agrees with my points regarding both Pichu and Mewtwo. He's a very respected member at Smashboards, a Moderator, in fact. Do you regard his opinion as BS, as well?[/font] [QUOTE]Where have I said that I know exactly how the tiers are put together? Nowhere. But I don't think up some bullcrap model out of nowhere and convince myself that that's the way it is. I'd suggest you not do so either.[/QUOTE] You may have not said so, but you certainly act like you do. It's unusual, because others have come to understand my analogies and criticisms, yet you hold steadfast to the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about. Why do you continue in that manner? I think it's because you think you know what you're talking about, and everyone else who disagrees with you is a total moron who has no idea how anything works. That's just my observation, but as this thread continues, that trait is becoming more and more apparent. Again, I'm not insulting you, merely providing some personal remarks that you may want to consider. [QUOTE]Lol, you've referenced threads to discuss player "obsession" or your horrendous Star Wars analogies. You've not actually provided any relevant information of your own, so don't act like you have.[/QUOTE] I've also referred numerous times to the Stat sheet in regard to faulty bases for the Tier list, but it seems you missed that. I linked to it when I was discussing [i]how[/i] the Stats were created, and asking about the methods used in acquiring those numerical figures is quite relevant, considering the Tiers are based on Stats, and that we are talking about the Tier system in this very thread. [QUOTE]Oh, I see. So if games have "elite players" then you can now discuss how much bearing Star Wars has on this discussion? Starcraft B-net and Warcraft B-net and Counterstrike and Unreal and Quake ALL have "elite players." Dude, Counterstrike has more bearing on this discussion than anyone may think or want to think, lol. Leave it alone. To win, players use the characters they're BEST with, not the characters highest on the tiers. On top of that, the vast majority of players don't know about the tiers, and many that do don't give two craps about them. Wrong. Nice try, though. There's no "Smash Melee" world. To make a "proper" analogy in this case, those who play Smash in the real world can likened to those who practice the ways of the Force in the SW universe. In the case of SW, those who practice the Force know who the Council are AND what their purpose is. Well, if that is what the tiers are based on, then they're truly bogus. But we haven't established that they are, so that's moot.[/QUOTE] In our discussions here, we have been going back and forth regarding the Tier system's construction, and the reasoning for placing particular characters higher than others. Earlier in the thread, Sciros went through a brief list of various evaluation criteria that players use to form the Tier list: [quote name='Sciros']the Tier list is built on a large amount of information and research, from tournament results to all aspects of a character (ground speed, power, move lag, recovery time, weight, jump height, etc.). [/quote] But his comments contradict those of the Tier List link he provided us with: [quote][b]The Tier List determines who is the best character by their stats[/b]. The higher they are, the better they are. The better chance that they have at winning someone who is lower than them. They use any stages and Low to Very Low Items. Don't worry though, it only effects highly skilled players. So casual gamers shouldn't care about them. You shouldn't let the Tier List change your characters, 'cause each person has a different style of playing. Remember though, Tier List =/ Skill. [b]It's only stats, the player's skill doesn't play in the Tier List[/b].[/quote] Tournament Results are certainly dependent on a player's skill level, so even if the results are compared against the Stat sheet and perhaps confirm the Stat's predictions, they are still invalid because player skill has not been factored out at all, because humans are still the ones winning the Tournaments. This leaves only numerical data as the viable criterion that the Tier List is based on. This is confirmed by m_darkdragon in [url=http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/index.php?fn=view_thread&t=325040&p=2]the Tier List thread[/url] that Sciros has personally linked us to earlier in this thread. It is made clear that STATS and stats alone determine the Tier List, but what Stats is m_darkdragon referring to? Sciros ran a search for "reputable statistics" earlier, and informed us that he was unable to find anything. Apart from Smashboards, it seems there are no other reputable stat pages. Are we to use the Stat list from Smashboards then? Since Smashboards seems to be the internet authority on Smash Melee, and seems to be a very comprehensive website, with fully detailed character evaluations, strategies and so forth, and seeing as how Mew2King's Stat Sheet is Stickied at the top of the Melee Discussion area of Smashboards, I think it is very likely that Mew2King's Stat sheet [i]is[/i] the Stats that the Tier List is based on. There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. So, Sciros, to answer your question regarding what Stats are used, yes, Mew2King's Stat sheet seems the most likely to be used, as there is nothing else on the 'net to provide any type of Stat examination. This makes the Tier List "totally bogus," and makes this discussion complete.

Honestly, it seems futile and somewhat of a time-waster to concentrate on the Afterlife. I mean, we don't know what's there, we won't experience what's there for a while, so why should we think so much about it now? That said, I'm one of those people who doesn't view the Afterlife as anything specific. The way I look at it, everyone's Afterlife is different, based on their Ideologies and approach towards life. For example, if someone views the world as antagonistic and resembling a boring, mundane, filing clerk's job, then their Afterlife isn't going to be pretty. It'll actually be kind of boring. I envision my Afterlife as a Theatre Performance. I recently saw Inside The Actor's Studio when it featured the cast of The Simpsons (Hank Azaria, Harry Shearer, Nancy Cartwright, etc). When asked about what they want God to say to them when they reach the Pearly Gates, one said, "Show starts in half-an-hour." I'd like that. :) I'm a performer at heart, so I'd like to think my Afterlife is doing what I do best and love: performing.

I would stalk myself. It's a perfect idea. The stalking would just be so easy. I couldn't lose track of myself. I'd always know where myself is. I would know what foods myself enjoys, so I can prepare them for myself. Sure, I may be a bit creeped out by myself, but hey, I am stalking myself, after all.

[font=Courier New][color=seagreen]My head hurts so bad. There's this pain there. I can't think; I can't talk. I'm in this huge vice and it's just squeezing tighter and tighter. My body is burning up. My head feels like a furnace. Sweat beads down, but it isn't refreshing at all. It burns. It's scalding my skin. Damn it, it hurts.[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]I can't even feel my hair anymore. It's like it's not even there. I just feel this damp fabric sitting there. It's matted into my scalp.[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]I can't breathe, cause [/color][/font][font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]I've got the shakes. My chest doesn't stop jittering. My ribs ache. My skin aches. Every inch of it. My limbs keep spasming, and I can't control them. My teeth chatter. It feels like my jaw is going to snap off. I'm so cold, but they won't give me a blanket.[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]Low moans are all I can make. I can only whimper, and they don't understand what I want. I want to get out of here. I don't want to stay here. I don't belong here. There's got to be more than this...hell. I'm dying, and I just want to feel better.[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]Another nurse enters, but she wears shades? Inside?[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]"Take this now," she orders me.[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]"Waa..." I gurgle.[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]"Do it. NOW."[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]She shoves a red pill down my throat.[/color][/font] [font=Courier New][color=#2e8b57]The fever's gone, but I still feel so cold and alone.[/color][/font]

[color=darkviolet]I just saw this on the news the other day. Jim McGreevey, former Governor of New Jersey, just came out of the closet and resigned at the same time. I'm not really all that surprised. At least, about him resigning, that is. He was an awful Governor. I'm not saying that Christie Todd Whitman was much better, but when a Governor proposes to merge two well-known colleges (Rutgers University and TCNJ) with a few other smaller schools, so The New Jersey Institute of Arts, Science, and Technology, or some utterly ridiculous name like that, I begin to doubt just how competent my Governor is, lol. Then, when he proposes to essentially cut all of the Arts programs of colleges across NJ, I get a bit pissed. I'm very supportive of the performing arts here at Rutgers, having been involved in their theatre program for about three years now, acting and/or doing support roles (programs, posters, etc). McGreevey may have done one good thing by revamping the DMV, but other than that...he was pretty much a lame duck. Anyone have any thoughts in their pretty little heads? [/color]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]I don't see how this disqualifies these stats from applying to [i]very skilled[/i] players. There's no need to "remove that from the game" in this particular case. [b]The tiers apply to highly skilled players, more specifically, playing each other one-on-one. If anything that takes player skill [i]into[/i] account[/b'].[/quote][url="http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/index.php?fn=view_thread&t=325040&p=2"]This thread[/url], the one you linked us to, says otherwise. [QUOTE]Because people were comparing characters. There's no tier list for "casual player skill" since there's no set level for that. There's a tier list for what I've mentioned above, however, which is why I brought it up. It's the only possible list by which you could compare character effectiveness [i]overall[/i]. I mean, car 0-60 times aren't tested by various 80-year-old sleepy grandmas. They're tested by professionals, and they're the only times that are legitimate to compare.[/QUOTE]And who were those people who were comparing characters? [i]Casual[/i] players, meaning copying and pasting a skill list designed for [i]highly skilled[/i] players has no reason at all behind it, because as you've said yourself, the Tier list you copied and pasted has no bearing at all on Casual play. It doesn't matter if it's the "only possible list," because that "only possible list" doesn't even apply in this thread. I'd like some clarification here, as well. You're not comparing us casual players to "various 80-year-old sleepy grandmas," are you? [QUOTE]There's a big difference between "every move" and "the throw," lol. Against fast characters, Mewtwo has difficulty connecting with his attacks.[/QUOTE]I'd like to re-evaluate what you said, then, if you now are not talking about "every move." Here was your previous comment: [quote name='Sciros']5. besides his throw ... --> all his moves are tough to hit people with besides his throw (people of an equal or higher skill level, of course)[/quote]I do notice that you saild "all his moves are tough to hit people with," which would mean you were referring to "every move." [QUOTE]That "certain, ignorant way" is seeing it as a "vicious cycle," as you so put it. You have no clue how the tiers are actually put together,[/quote]When the Elite players simply tell you the Tier System is how it is, and there can be no question about it, and you accept it without questioning, do you have any clue how the Tiers are actually put together? I'm not insulting you, either, but you have consistently given vague answers here that sound suspiciously regurgitated. Numerous times in this thread you have told us how you don't question the Elite players, and when someone "1000 times better than you tells you that Shiek is the best," you have "no solid authority" in the matter, and accept what they tell you. I've referenced numerous threads on Smashboards, and you seem to have never even seen them, even asking me if I Googled to find one of them. How much have you actually browsed Smashboards, and then were able to understand how these Tiers were put together? [quote]but you've convinced yourself with your "vicious cycle" model, and then fit it to SWG. Way to go. First of all, not only is the [i]only[/i] similarity between the two situations is they're both games and one of them has a self-sustaining cycle and the other *might* have one, but it's a terribly weak one at that. Though, [b]since tournament champs play [i]to win[/i][/b],[/quote]What do you think the Powergamers of SWG are? They are the gamers who grind the missions; they are the Armorsmiths who constantly raise their prices, to become better than the other players around them. The Powergamers [i]play to win[/i]. This again bridges the similarity of the Tournament Champs, who oddly enough are the Elite players, correct? [quote][b]the characters they use aren't based off the tiers[/b]. They build the tiers and that's that. There's no cycle. Anyone who uses a character only because he/she's high on tier list won't get anywhere unless that character is indeed superior, because enough good players use characters of all sorts.[/QUOTE]If that's what you're saying now, how does that not contradict what you said earlier in the thread? Specifically, [quote name='Sciros previous reply]I want you to think about this, because it's important to realize. Equally skilled players do on occasion play against each other (yes folks it's true). In fact sometimes players that are both so skilled as to not "outplay" each other meet. (There's no overwhelming opinion that either Isai or Ken or Azen or Chillin is better than the other three, for instance, and they do play each other). This is when character advantages become apparent. You can choose to ignore them, but that's all you'd be doing. [b]The best players in the world play to win, and there's a reason that they use the top-tier characters[/b'] (Azen = Sheik, Ken=Marth, ...Chillin=Fox I think...).[/quote]If in your most recent reply, you're saying that the dominant players [i]don't[/i] base their character usage off the Tiers, then what are you saying by what I just quoted? [quote]Har. I know who the Jedi Council are. I don't know who the MBR (or whatever) is. In fact, as I said before the "powers that be" from Angel the TV show would be no worse (and in fact better) as a parallel. Your analogy is thoughtless.[/QUOTE]Do you realize why we know who the Jedi Council are? Because we are shown them. Put yourself in the role of a common Republic Soldier, and you won't know anything about the J.C. In Smash Melee's world, you are a common Republic Soldier. EDIT: I'd also like to mention that I had a rather long conversation with Jason Zimmerman (Mew2King) last night, over AIM. He's a good kid, a bit hyper, and a bit rambly, but I was like that at that age, too. I had asked him about how he tested those stats, and how he arrived at those numbers. The method he used was similar to hitting A then hitting Start insantly to pause the game. Now, he doesn't realize the problem in that method, simply because he hasn't taken the courses at CHS yet, specifically, TV Production. When he does, he'll understand my point a bit better. But what I was telling him was that without the proper frame counters, editing/recording machines, frame advancers, etc, getting an accurate reading with a simple manual pause was impossible. Given this, when the Elite players base their character rankings off of those stats, they are getting an inaccurate reading, and thus creating a rather broken, invalid, and very skewed Tier system.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]Des has it pretty much right. The tiers that everyone refers to as "the tiers" are intended to rank character effectiveness in very competitive one-on-one human play exclusively. Siren, I haven't been able to find exactly what the tiers are based on just from asking around, but I'll do some more searching later on at some point or another [b](if you want a large list of statistics, though, Smashboards does have a very lengthy sticky concerning some)[/b']. Some have mentioned that in 4-player FFA, Link is a top-tier character, for example (implying that there are different tiers for different scenarios).[/quote] What thread? Do you mean [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=30064]this thread[/url]? How does one collect data? How does one collect data for this stat sheet? You'll notice there are many, many numerical calculations, some involving repeating decimals, others that [i]seem[/i] like very precise measurements. Specifically, I'm talking about all of the frame numbers and their subsequent fractions/decimals, and the throw ranges. However, how precise can they be? The frames, they can be fairly precise, but the throwing distances? What are they using as a testing environment? How are they measuring the distances? This is all information that is left out. Further, [i]who[/i] is running this battery of tests? You have said again and again that theories and hypotheses are idiotic, because they are just pure speculation, without any real-world application. Those were more or less your words, albeit with some polishing. If these stats are all numerical, with no further testing in a game setting, they are purely hypothesis. However, they were tested, but by whom? [url=http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=8177]Mew2King[/url]. I find his location to be most interesting. You will notice that his location is the same as mine, "Cinnaminson, NJ." I found this rather perplexing, and checked his [url=http://hometown.aol.com/oovideogamegodoo/myhomepage/profile.html]AOL homepage[/url] that he links to in his profile. He attends my Alma Mater. Chances are, he lives within 10 minutes of me. Peculiar, isn't it? But back to the point. If these numbers weren't tested in any game environment, they are purely hypothetical. However, since Mr. Zimmerman has so graciously provided that he in fact tested all of this while he was bored, his data is tainted, because obviously, he must be a very skilled player, and as we are all aware, player skill cannot be removed from any game, [i]especially[/i] when players are playing. So, as much as we can commend Jason for his efforts, his data is skewed, simply because it was not gathered in an isolated, controlled testing environment. [quote]Of course, [b]the tiers are not exactly correct for everyone, because they do change as player skill goes up or down[/b]. For instance, in the realm of "casual players", I'd say Captain Falcon is at best mid-tier. He's very hard to bring to a competitive level, much harder than Marth (of course all characters are equally hard to get 100% out of). Same goes for Ganondorf and Jigglypuff. Likewise the bottom-tier characters don't seem so bad when you're not talking about world champs playing.[/quote] If they are not exactly correct for everyone, why did you even bother to start raving about them? You know that most OBers (excluding yourself, [i]of course[/i]) are casual players, do you not? The Tier list does not apply here, and if you are aware of that--if you were aware of that to begin with, why did you bring it up in the first place? [quote]As for that difficult-to-decipher sentence, Siren, let's tackle it one step at a time: "Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with." 1. difficult to connect with --> tough to hit people with = bad 2. aren't difficult to connect with --> not tough to hit people with = NOT bad 3. moves which aren't difficult to connect with --> moves that you can hit people with 4. he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with --> none of the above 5. besides his throw ... --> all his moves are tough to hit people with besides his throw (people of an equal or higher skill level, of course) Makes sense now?[/quote] But if he's a [i]containment[/i] fighter, meaning Status changes and moves designed to keep the opponent off-balance, why would you treat him as a character that needs to connect with [i]every[/i] move? Given his moveset, he's not designed as a "in the fray get in there" type character. [quote]Your Star Wars economy analogy only works if you interpret the Tiers in a certain, ignorant way. So it's bad.[/quote] ...you have no real rebuttal to the SWG economy analogy, do you? "in a certain, ignorant way" And what is that "certain, ignorant way"? [quote]Your likening of the guys who put the Tiers together to the Jedi Council is about as apt as likening it to "the powers that be" from Angel the TV show. People I don't know who are really good at something putting together a reference for everyone... dude it's totally like Star Wars! And Ken is Mace Windu! And Azen is Yoda![/quote] So, your description of the World-class players as [quote name='Sciros']those 60 people who created the tiers are, well, nobody has been able to tell me much more than that they're killer players who have done a lot of research themselves[/quote] is in fact wrong? Are those players indeed well-known and is there a vast expanse of information about them that details their lives, backgrounds, histories, etc? If there was, then they are different than the Jedi Council. If there isn't, however, then you have yet to prove the Elite World-class players do not resemble the J.C. [quote]Why don't you turn off your "humanities paper auto-BS generator" for a second and live in the real world.[/QUOTE] Again, like I've said and requested before, that you leave the insults out of this discussion. I'm simply asking you to leave your personal bias out of this, which isn't unreasonable, when you think about it. Do you really think there's some stored-up conflict between us? There is no "us." "We" don't exist.

The only game that comes to mind is Road Rash 3D, for PSX. RR3D has a really fun soundtrack to start with, and the songs really fit the style and motif of the game, but as my brother and I were playing it, we realized that there was an abundance of Sugar Ray on the RR in-game soundtrack. We figured, why not pop in the actual Sugar Ray album? So we did, and the results were rather fun. One of the Sugar Ray albums, probably the one with "Fly," fit surprisingly well. There's not much better than kicking another cyclist off their bike to the lyrics, "I just wanna fly, put your arm around me baby, put your arm around me baby." It was great.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']I said I was done talking about tiers and I meant it. You want to hold me to it, you do that. Consistently.[/quote] You know what? I've changed my mind. I'd like for you to prove that the Tier System is not a vicious cycle, and I would also like for you to fully explain in full detail, the methods used in acquiring the various stats data on every character in Melee. [QUOTE]No, I made it quite clear that I'm no Smash god. But I do think I'd beat you, [i]especially[/i] if you use the all-powerful Pichu, lol.[/QUOTE] Like I've said before, you under-estimate Pichu, and many of the "Lower-Tier" characters. If you and I were to square off, I wouldn't be a push-over, no matter who I played as, Sciros. I can give you a run for your money. Believe it or not, I'm quite able to. [QUOTE]Silly Siren, throws are for combos. Not for KOs. Who besides Mario really KOs with throws all that much? You can KO with a follow-up to the throw, which is the reason to do it in the first place. Or to rack up damage.[/QUOTE] Considering that Mewtwo can KO with his Upward throw, Peach can KO with her Forward throw, Zelda's Reverse throw can KO, and Game And Watch's throws have KO potential, I hardly think you can say that throws are only for combos, and not KOs. [QUOTE]I don't think he does. He's too easy to land combos on, and his ranged attack is too easy to avoid. Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with.[/QUOTE] Shadow Ball is an excellent edge-guarder, and also an excellent way to deter an aerial character, given its erratic flight pattern. "Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with." Perhaps I'm just so very dense and slow, but I've re-read this sentence a few times now, and still have no idea what you were trying to say, lol. Are you saying that Mewtwo's throw is difficult to connect with? [QUOTE]It doesn't take that much to get a feel for character advantages. You don't have to be as good as those guys. I made a list of characters from best to worst well before I ever saw the Tier list, and it was quite close (besides Jigglypuff, Falcon, and Ganondorf's placement). As for those people, I agree that they probably play the game too much. But if I devoted ALL of my console/PC gaming time to Smash, I'd get close to their level I'd imagine. It's a question of whether you want to play Smash or some other game instead, really. It's not "letting the game rule your life."[/QUOTE] When someone says that they played Melee for four hours in the early morning, while they are [i]grounded by their parents[/i], I think that's letting the game have a bit too much control over their life. [QUOTE]Nope, haven't read it and I don't plan to.[/QUOTE] You should. It's a real eye-opener, but not in the sense of revealing a great truth about Melee. [quote]Har, did you find that thread by Googling for Isai/Ken/Azen? Oh, and Star Wars has pretty much nothing to do with this, unless you're talking about the beam sword which is totally a light saber, lol.[/QUOTE] Actually, no. I simply browsed through the Smashboards thread listings. Debunk my points about the SWG player economy and how its current condition is entirely relevant to the Tier system, and prove that the Elite World-class players [i]aren't[/i] some secretive group of elite warriors that you know little to none about, who set the rules and are not questioned, often implying "It is this way because it is so," and function very much like the Jedi Council, and then you can say that Star Wars has no bearing here.