DBZgirl88

[COLOR=#004a6f]I thought it would be interesting to start a topic based on the Islamic religion. However, the point of my thread is only to try to convince you that the Quran is the word of God, but not neccesarily that Islam is the "right religion". As far as I know, there are three scriptures which have been said to be the direct word of God: the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran. However, all of us agree that the Torah and the Gospel have been changed time and time again. No two Bibles are alike. What about the Quran? The Quran states that it is the last scripture to be sent down from God, and the God has take it upon himself to preserve it. It is true that the Quran has remained completely unchanged for over 1400 years, since the time of it's revelation. Not a single word, nor a single letter has been changed. Cristians believe in the Torah, they believe that it was sent down by God, but they follow the Gospel because it is the most "revised" message so far. Is it not possible that yet another book would come after the Gospel? I don't that is is stated anywhere in the Gospel that no more books will proceed it. Jesus was an Israelite/Jew right? At that time, his people were following the teachings of the Torah, but the Torah's message has been altered, and the jewish rabbis of the time were taking advantage of people using religion. Jesus comes along with his miracles and a new book. Many people start to follow Jesus' teachings. It's not like they converted or anything. They simply knew that God has sent them another prophet (or as Christians believe, his Son) down with a new book, which corrected the mistakes in the altered Torah. Now let's take a look the the last scripture, the Quran. There is no "proof" that it is the word of God, and there is no "proof" either for the other two scriptures. But, let's take a look at the facts shall we? First of all, the prophet Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael became the "father" of the Arabs, and Isaac became the "father" of the Israelites/Jews. Jesus (peace be upon him) is therefore and decendant of Isaac, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a decendant of Ishmael. The Arabs never had a book sent down to them like the Jews, but they still believed in God and followed the teachings of Ishmael. However, they strayed far from the right path over time. They began to engage in idol worshipping, alchohol consumption, gambling, and just about everything that went against the teachings of Ishmael. They treated their women next to animals, and even buried their daughters alive since they preferred boys. There were some Arabs, at the time as well who were Christian, meaning they believed that Jesus was the son of God (from the Islamic point of view they were following the altered Gospel). Muhammad was born into this disgusting Arab society. Growing up, he was highly respected because he was very honest and trustworthy, and was very good at solving social disputes. He knew there was something terribly wrong with his society's culture and religion. The Arabs would have all sorts of festivals which involved idol worshipping and alcohol consumption, but Muhammad steered clear of these habits. He often went aone to a cave in Mount Hira, to worship God and ponder about the point of his existence. Here is his story: One day while he was up in the cave, an angel (Gabriel) came to him. Muhammad was completely terrified. No, angels do not look like beautiful human beings with wings and halos. All we know is this: They have wings, how many we're not sure, but Gabriel specifically has 300 pairs of wings. Angels are huge, and they are terrifying in their true form, at least in a human's point of view. Anyway, Gabiriel gives Muhammad a command: "Recite,", he says. Muhammad, being [B]illiterate[/B] answers: "I am not a reciter." The angel embraces Muhammad with a rip-cracking hug and repeats the command: "Recite," he says. Again Muhammad answers, "I am not a reciter". Gabriel repeats the embrace, asking Muhammad to repeat after him and said: "Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not." Muhammad, still terrified, repeats what the angel said and runs out of the cave. But the Gabriel follows him out of the cave. Muhamad can't even bear to look at the angel, so one can imagine how frightening Gabriel was. Muhammad turns his head to look away, but everywhere he looked, there was Gabriel. Can you even imagine something like that? When Gabriel spreads his wings, he is so Gigantic his form fills the entire sky. Then Gabriel tells Muhammad that he is the prophet of God, and that he is to carry out the God's message to mankind: The Quran. Okay, so Muhammad (phuh) runs home to his wife Khadija and asks her to cover him (he is still scared of course). She comforts him and he tells her what happened. She calls over a cousin of hers who was Christian. Her cousin hears Muhammad out and confirms that he is indeed a prophet. The Angel Gabriel visited the Muhammad many times over a period of twenty-three years. Gabriel taught Muhammad the verses, and Muhammad, being [B]illiterate[/B] was to memmorize them. He then repeated the verses he was taught to his companions and scribes to record on paper. But wait a second! What if Muhammad wasn't telling the truth? What if the Quran was not the word of God? Let's examine this question. The Quran is in Arabic, so only someone who knew Arabic well could have possibly written it. Therefore, there are only 3 possibilities of who could have possibly written it: The Arabs in general, Muhammad, or God. When looking at the first possibility, one can already have many doubts that it was the Arabs who wrote the Quran. The Quran went against just about every aspect of their lifesyle! The Quran forbids Idol worshipping, but the Arabs loved their Idol gods and were constantly worshipping them and offering sacrifices. The Quran forbid alcohol consumption, but they Arabs freely consumed alcohol. The Quran fobid the maltreatment of women. It said to be kind to women, to treat them as human beings, and it gave women political, economical, and social rights as well. But the Arabs, as I have already said, treated women next to animals. Why would the Arabs write something that goes completely against their socity's ideals? Wouldn't they rather write something that encouraged their lifestyle? Okay, so that rules out the possibility of the Arabs writing it, so lets look at the second possibility shall we? Could Muhammad have written the Quran? First I would like to mention this: The Arabic language had reached its peak when it comes to grammar, vocabulary, and poetic expression in the 6th century, during Muhammad's lifetime. Poetry was something highly valued and there were many highly respected poets at the time. When other poets read the Quran, they were completely baffled by its style and poetic qualities. It was something completely out of this world. But some people just assumed that Muhammad was a poet, and that he was very good with words. But Muhammad was [B]illiterate[/B]! It doesn't mean he was stupid, but he would not have they ability to express himself the way the Quran was expressed. But even if Muhammad was able to express himself so beautifully consider this: The Quran was revealed bit by bit over a period of 23 years, and never did a single aspect of its style change! How could any human keep the exact style of speech for 23 years? Furthermore, Muslims follow the sayings of the prophet (the hadith) in addition to the Quran. Muhammad expressed his teachings [B]in his own words[/B], which had a completely different style than the Quran. How could a human maintain two completely different styles of speech for 23 years? But that gives us yet another small possibility: Maybe another individual Arab wrote the Quran, and that person also didn't agree with the pagan Arab culture. However, the Quran has no author. Anyone who writes a book would put their name on it, but their is no name on the Quran. Furthermore, Muhammad was the only person to ever teach the Quran. He always knew the verses before anyone else. The Quran also contained many of the same stories found in the Bible and Torah, but Muhammad had never heard of these stories himself! How could he have known? Cristians and Jews from other lands would come to Makkah and ask Muhammad to answer questions that none of the Arabs would have known. But the answer always came, and in the form of Quranic verses. I'd say that there's enough evidence here that show the Quran is indeed the word of God. What do you make of it?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Morpheus]I haven't read one word of the book(though I plan to) and I already have proof that Creationism was altered by humans: We, or namely a few "Prophets", created the entire ideal. It formed in the minds of those that sought the "Why are we here" that we look for today and found no answer. I don't mean to be so blunt, but isn't it entirely possible that we are just here? That there is no real reason? Tell me this: If god is so all-powerful, why didn't he just speak to us all and not just 4 people?[/QUOTE]I really don't think that assuming a creator exists means that humans invented God. For example, the greek philiosopher Democritus assumed that matter can be broken down untill you finally reach a point where you cannot break it down any longer. At this point, you would reach the building blocks of matter, which are atoms. Does this mean that Democritus invented atoms? There is no proof that atoms exist, not one has ever seen an atom, but all scientific evidence completely supports the theory, which of course all of us agree with. No one has ever seen God, not even the prophets, but there is evidence in the universe that he exists. I've asked this question before in other discussions and I will repeat it again: Where did all the matter and energy from the Big Bang come from? And people, rather than insulting me, and telling me that I'm "regurgitating years of mental doctrine", how about actually thinking about this question? And you know what? None of you have an answer to it, do you? You will never have the answer. The only logical answer is that a devine being with qualities and powers beyond comprehension could have possibly done it. A being completely seperate and independant of all creation. To answer your question Morpheus about prophets: God created humans and sent them to live on earth. The reason we were created is to worship God, and follow the way of living he has prescribed for us. The whole point of worshipping God without seeing him is to test our faith and devotion. But ever since Adam's time, people have been straying off the right path. God sends prophets to help guide them back. This is a mercy. He could simply leave us to stray off the right path, and walk right into hell's flames, but God shows us mercy by sending us prophets, and occasionally he would also send a book down, in his own words, telling us the proper way we should live our lives. I think the reason some people refuse to belive in God is because they don't want to be told what to do. If that's the only reason, then they are being quite cowardly for denying the truth just to legitimize their lifestyle. There are so many different religions out there, it makes you uneasy, and want to avoid it altogether. Some people use religion as an advantage to make money for themselves, or gain extra respect, or even be worshipped. The pharohs of Egypt weren't gods, and they were worshipped. In addition to that, the Egyptians made up all sorts fo gods and weird stories about them. But that religion was wrong. It was all made up. None of it was real. Why even consider religions that have made-up gods? Just for a second, lets pretend that God never sent down any books, and that the Torah, the Bible and the Quran never existed. Yet some of us will still assume that some sort of Creator exists, even though we don't know the Creator's name. But, could more than one Creator exist? Let's think about that for a moment. What would happen if there was more than one god? My little brother was asked this question in Islamic school. Being only four years old at the time, he still managed to provide a logical answer: "If there was more that one god, they would all fight!", he said. Hmmm..... makes sense to me, even coming from a four-year old. But like I've said before, the purpose of our existence is to worship our Creator. Surely, our creator wouldn't leave us in the dark! He would send us prophets to encourage us to live a good life, and He would send messages in his own words as well.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]I've recently been making animated gifs for teaching purposes and I'm looking fo a more advanced anmation softare, one that has a variety of text and image effects, like fading and such. Does anyone know of good gif animation programs?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Generic NPC #3]There's no way what you've written here will help explain or clear up anything to anyone that doesn't have the same faith based system you have. In order to accept most of the ideas you've presented (or really just reiterated because this is really the traditional argument here) you have to already believe in it. If you don't accept these ideas of faith, this simply just doesn't work and really doesn't bring either side any closer together. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your purpose in writing that, but I don't think what's there allows the idea to make any more sense than it ever has.[/QUOTE]I was simply presenting the ideas which give the creation theory it's validity. I'm just saying, that the fact that humans are physically and mentally limited is what makes people have a hard time believing in a creator. I wasn't saying that what I had said was proof that God exisits, just that if God did in fact exist, there is an explaination for some of the questions running through our heads.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]In my opinion, evolution is not possible unless there is divine intervention. Basing the origins of the complexity of life on pure chance is completely ludacris. God could, cause evolution to occur, and we could, have evolved from apes. But I simply don't believe that we evolved from apes because God states in his books (which I belive are the word of God) that Adam and Eve were the parents of humankind. That settles it for me. Just because apes are very similar to us, that dosn't neccesarily mean that we evolved from them. Of course you would have to be a creationist to believe that. [quote name='James][COLOR=#B0251E']There's a book by an Australian geologist (which I've mentioned before here), which basically goes into great detail in terms of disproving, point-by-point, the biblical account of creation (from the great flood -- where did the water go and for that matter, where did it even come from? -- to the ark -- what about animals that need to live in swarms? Those that require fresh water? Single-cell organisms? Noah and his wife would have had to run at the speed of light to feed them all, lol).[/COLOR][/quote]I've wondered about that story myself, but notice that it was specifically "2 of every animal". This would not include microorginisms. The earth is massive, and you wonder how Noah possibly got to all parts of the world, to get all the different types of animals. Beats me. Maybe he really did carry out the task. Maybe there were much less animals back then. Maybe the 7 continents were actually 1 then. Or maybe Noah only had to get animals in his region. Anyway, Noah's task was quite unneccessary, when you think who powerful God is. God could have protected Noah and his good followers and the animals, yet destroyed all the evil people without the need for creating a flood or having Noah build and arc. None of it was neccessary. But God wanted it done this way. Why? I'm guessing that God was testing Noah and the believers, he wanted to test Noah's faith and willingess to complete such and incredible task, and he wanted the believers to endure hardship, as a test of the faith and patience. Where did all the water go? Well, only God knows, and he has the complete power to make it dissapear. Often when engaging in the Creation vs. Evolution debate, I've noticed that athiests always ask for scientific explanations for everything. They want proof that God exists; they want it handed to them like some sort of scientific equation. Here's where the problem lies. We are so limited with our understanding, we can't comprehend things that our senses cannot percieve, or ideas too complex for our brians to proccess. God is not like us. He is not like any of his creations. He is not a tangeable being, for he is the One who created matter and energy. And He created them from nothing. He has no beginning and no end. He has always been there and will always be there. He is eternal; absolute. Why ask for His origins when He created time and space, and matter and energy? Why ask for scientific explanations to His existence when it is God who created the laws of the Universe, and has the power to change them at his will? This is way too difficult to understand. You wonder: "How can something be created from nothing? How can God have no beginning?", but Creationists accept this, because we know that humans and all of God's creations are limited in understanding. When you think about the Creation theory this way, it suddenly makes much more sense, doesn't it?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]The thing is, many people make marriage a much bigger hassle than it ought to be. Really there is no need for the big expensive dress an all. People should think of marriage as something which limits your freedoms as an individual. You get a boyfriend, and you could break up, same thing with marriage. What makes a "legal" marriage different is that people know that you are in a relationship with that person. It does not need to be the government, just the community you live in. If they know your are married to that person, then it prevents you from being harmed. If the person is unfaithful to you, it is much easier to discover that, knowing there are others who know of your marriage. Marriage is not just a romantic fantasy. It is a commitment that involves responsibility, and legal marriages put stress on that responsibility.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]Sometimes your religion plays a part in whether or not you decide to pull the plug. Even if the person is in a vegetative state, people who believe in God still beleive that God decides whether the person dies or not. God can even suddenly end the coma and the person would wake up. I went to a releigious lecture one day about death. The guy who was giving us the lecture told us that one day, he was called to a hospital for advice about someone's loved one (a father and husband) who was on life support. They were asking him whether or not it was right to pull the plug or not. He stated that someone in the family must decide, that that God would propbably be forgiving because the situation seems hopeless. The man's soul might have even left his body, and you just have a lump of flesh right there. The man's wife was considering pulling the plug, but then, the man's son, who was living in another country, called and forbid her to do so. So the guy who was asked for advice stated, "okay, the decision is made". Miraculously, the man in the coma woke up a month later, and although he had suffered brain damage and was unable to speak, he still lived happily with his family for another full year. Weird huh? As I see it, from a releigious point of view, it was God's will that this man lived. It was him who allowed the phone call to be made and the boy's decision to get through, and it was him who allowed the man to wake up.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]Personally, I feel that a proper marriage should be both spiritual and legal. You should not engage in sexual acts with someone if you're not legally married to them. If you love them, then well, MARRY THEM! Then sexual acts would be both legitimate and have no harmful effects. If you're "legally" married to someone, but don't love them, don't cheat on them. Divorce them, simple as that.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]Where I live (Ontario, Canada), all four seasons show themsleves pretty well. Summer can get pretty hot an winter pretty cold. This years winter was a bit crazy. It started out pretty cold, the way it usually is. The snow is too cold and dry to stick together, so there's no point trying to make snowmen. But then a week ago, the it got pretty warm and sunny. The snow shone brilliantly in the sunlight, it was quite blinding. Then later it melted away and we also got heavy rain. Rain in febuary? Weird.... It got cold again and the snow is back. I think it's all caused by global warming. It's messing up the weather. Not too interesting. But two years ago something weirder happened. There was alot freezing rain, and everything got covered in a thick layer of ice. The trees vere covered too, down to every twig. The ice was so heavy the tree branches sagged and dangled on the cars below them. Whole branches were ripped off some of the trees, and some of the smaller trees were literally torn in half. What's even more awkward is that it was spring and it had suddenly become so cold. Some of the trees were just growing new buds and leaves and those were all lost. Despite the damage caused by the ice, and the safety hazards it posed (people in the past have been killed by branches that gave way due to the weight of the ice), it was quite a beautiful sight to see.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Annalisse][color=#404142]So what if people don't know [b]everything[/b'] about religion. That's why these threads are here. So people can come together and discuss, and learn. Yes, I'll say that I have not been right with everything I've said; I've never stated that I was right, everyone else was wrong. And yes, I can't speak for anyone else. [/color][/quote]There's a difference between not knowing and asking questions, and pretending you know something and telling lies. Yes we are all here to learn, but people making false statments won't help us to. As for homosexuality (why is everyone so obsessed with it these days?), everyone is entitled to their beliefs about it. People who dislike it have good reasons for it, so you can't call it discrimination: [I]"There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life." [/I] [QUOTE]As for homosexuality in that, why would God shun his children for loving another human being, whether they be man or woman?[/QUOTE]Okay, love is different than lust. A man can love his male friends, he can love his father, and his brothers. God has stated in the books than homosexuality is forbidden: "We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81 "What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165 Of course you can choose to believe these are scriptures from God or not. However, I never said God hates homosexuals, he hates homosexual acts. If you commit a sin, it doesn't mean God will hate you. He hates the action, and you should repent and not do it again. Likewise, if you have homosexual urges but you don't act on them, God won't hate you. And if you do commit homosexual acts, you still have a chance to repent, and not do them again. Sigh... here we go again...[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']Don't at all be sorry, I'm actually glad you corrected me. I did not belive that Muslims belive in Jesus(in any form) as well. If your next statement about being racist and just blurting out whatever was directed towards me I did not mean any offense by it. It was just my misunderstanding. So I would like to apologize for any misunderstanding.[/quote]No don't worry, it was not directed at you. You understood the fact that you might have been mistaken, and I respect that. There are others though, that made false statements as though they are facts and they think they're all smart or something. That really pisses me off.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']Muslim(sorry if I mispellsed it) have the prophet Mohammed(once again I'm not good with spellings) who is supposed to come back. Something similar to Christianities Jesus.[/quote]Sorry, I really felt I needed to correct this statement. Muslims believe in one God only. We believe that both Jesus and Muhammad were prophets that were sent by God to deliver his message. Muhammad is NOT like the cristian Jesus. Mohamad is human and is not to be worshipped. We simply love and respect him, and we take his actions as examples of the proper way to live our lives. We don't believe that Muhammad will return. We believe Jesus will return, and that he is the Messiah. But as we believe, Jesus is not God, or even his son. He is also human, and by God's will only he was able to preform miracles. Meanwhile, the rest of you can leave the "Islamic Extremeists" out of this. They are people who make up rules for themselves and don't follow Islam properly. And Japan86, the Koran (Quran) doesn't state that we should kill non-Muslims, so you can kindly withdraw this false statement. If it states that anywhere, it is only talking about people who oppress muslims, and it says to leave them be if they accept Islam. You people think you know so much and blurt out a bunch of crap you hear on racist sites. Why don't you actually pick up a translation of the Quran and see for yourself the real message it holds? [QUOTE=Godelsensei]All religions are the same. That is: they're all elitist, discriminatory cliques run by crazy, sexist, homophobic, racist old guys who love to claim that it is only through [paying, worshiping, and waiting on] them that any one might achieve a half decent afterlife.[/QUOTE]What "old guys"? I don't pray to anyone but my lord. Apperently because Muslim women are supposed to cover themeselves, that makes our religion sexist? And why don't you just leave people alone about homosexuality okay? We believe in our religion and God says he despise homosexuality, and that it is a bad lifestyle, you know what I do? I listen to my lord! So deal with it![/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]Why must every topic started be turned into a huge debate thread people? God, I simply made a suggestion, intended for the James. You're all making a really huge deal of something that isn't. Alot of you ask "why does it matter"? Well why doesn't matter huh? If you don't care about specifying genders that's fine, but must you degrade people who do like the idea? Honestly...[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Dagger IX1]I'm with Godel. Personally, I always get a huge kick out of being mistaken for the gender I'm not. ;) Anyway, I don't think it's really necessary to distinguish between genders--if it bothers you, there are plenty of places where you can make your own gender clear (i.e. your custom title, your signature and certain parts of your profile). I've been to forums that mark almost every user as male or female (although one can opt out of it, if one so chooses), and for some reason the practice always makes me vaguely uncomfortable. ~Dagger~[/QUOTE]Well, I did state there should be an [B]option[/B] to specify your gender. If you felt uncomfortable with that for any reason, or you simply love the thrill of "mystery", then you simply don't specify it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Ozy Jones]Sorry. That would be a lie still, and he'd still be executed. And is yours silence?[/QUOTE]Yeah. Oh by the way, I looked up the answer to yours, but I won't say the answer until more people have tried. Here is a riddle I was told as a child, but it is metaphorical, so it might be a bit hard . I find it a bit corny but meh: There is this "land", the "inhabitants" of the land are black "people", the "grass" is very green, and the "sky" is red. The "people" are floating, stuck up in the "sky". What is this "land"?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='lea']Heh. When I was younger, I was taught that Muslim girls had to marry Muslim guys, while Muslim guys could marry from whatever religion they choose.[/quote]Actually, Muslim men can only marry from women of "the book" meaning, christians and jews, and muslims ofcourse. They can't marry athiests or hindus or other polytheitists It is not so strict for men because men are the authority in the household and children will take on the religion of the father, (though I don't understand how this works out if the mother is jewish). They are believing people, but in our views, their beliefs have been slightly misguided by altered books. A muslim man can marry a christian or jewish woman based on the assumption that the women he marries will eventually become muslim herself, or will not try to make her children the same religion as her. If this is not agreed upon beforehand, or if their are muslim women available he should not marry her. Meh.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]It would be nice if there was an easy way to tell if an OtakuBoards member is male or female. Maybe we can have an option to specify our gender, and when we post, our name can be in a certain color if we're male or female (doesn't have to be blue and pink mind you). I've been mistaken for a boy for quite a while. I thought that people could tell by my style of writing that I was a girl, but I was wrong. I also used to think that Zeta was a girl, lol. We need a way to clear up these misconceptions.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]I find it very difficult to control my self when it comes to crying. I find myself very sensitive and the slightest thing can make me cry. It happens alot when I'm around others, and I try my hardest to hold it in, but end up with red eyes anyway. I cry easily from sad, mushy movies. When I'm on my own though, I love to cry. It's such a good feeling. I feel this release of pressure and anxiety and feel so much better afterwards. I just neal over the sink and let the tears flow in bucket fulls, and wash my face with cold water. Ahhhh....[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Ozy Jones][COLOR=DarkOrange]Very Good...how about this? A captain was being executed for treason. He had the opportunity to make a last statement. If his statement was true then he would be hung. If it was false then he would be shot. He made a statement and was released... What did he say?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]I have this feeling that he said something that is a lie and a truth at the same time. He said: "I'm dead" Here's a riddle: What is is that you will break every time you name it?[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Ozy Jones][COLOR=DarkOrange]My Riddle: "Pronouced as one letter, And written with three, Two letters there are, And two only in me. I'm double, I'm single, I'm black, blue and gray, I'm read from both ends And the same either way." [/COLOR][/QUOTE]Hmmm... is it an eye?

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE]And this topic was, in fact, started on an actual arranged marriage[/QUOTE]True, but I would have called it "semi arranged". In my first post, I stated that some muslim parents offer their children in marriage with out thinking properly, or getting their opinion, assuming that their child agrees. In "John's" situation what his father did in the first place was wrong and disrespectful to John, but I doubt he would actually forced "John" into the marriage if "John" had disagreed. John's family is Muslim (I know it doesn't say so in the first post, but he's Arabic and lives in Saudi Arabia, so that must be true), and it is against Islam to force somebody into a marriage. That was why I had found it neccesary to explain Islamic marriage. "John's" marriage was labeled as "arranged" when infact it was not. At least not entirely. I hope this clarifies the purpose of my previous posts.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Annalisse][color=darkslategray']I totally disagree with arranged marriages. I love and respect my parents. And they love and respect me. So, if your parents respect you, I don't see why they have to arrange your marriage.[/color][/quote]I don't agree with arranged marriages either. No one can force you to marry someone against your will. But the thing, many of you keep calling marriages that are not arranged "arranged marriages". How are they arranging things for you if a guy asks you for your hand in marriage? Yes, he asks YOU, and YOU can say yes or no. Just because your parents should agree too, that make its an arranged marriage? My older sister was directly asked be a guy for her hand in marriage. He was attracted to her intellect and her outspokenness, and her good sense of morals. They had worked together along with other muslim students in a local radio station in which volunteers can speak about different topics. The muslim community in my city has it's own hour on saturdays, and so did other cultural and religious groups. So she went and discussed it with our parents, who also agreed. She's very happy, she likes this guy, he's a good devoted muslim, and he's known very well in our community as a man of good character. If you call this an "arranged marriage", or an invasion of her rights, you are sadly mistaken. She has the choice to marry him anyway even if our parents didn't agree, but in Islam, she would be commiting a sin, and the marriage would be in an Islamic view, invalid. In Islam, we can only marry people who are muslim, but no one says anyone should be forced to follow this rule. God will deal with it (as muslims believe). There is no compulsion in religion. But anyway, my sister decides to follow the teachings of our religion. SHE chooses in the end. Got a problem with that? Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Why can't you accept that?[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Syk3][i]What?![/i'] Do you even know what you're saying anymore? lol Just quitting nicotine really isn't that easy; your body comes to depend on it, which is why people have so much trouble getting off cigarettes and have to resort to patches. o_O You can try to quit, sure, but you'll go through physical withdrawal of the substance, and to tell people to just suck it up shows how uninformed you really are.[/quote]True, people do find it difficult to stop smoking. That's why I said that banning tabacco and marijuana altogether was somewhat unrealistic. However, maybe the bannnig of tabbaco products can be gradual, like slowly removing it from stores untill stores don't sell it anymore. Eventually selling cigarettes can be made illegal. For those who are hooked on tabbaco, offer programs that will help them quit during this time. Future generations won't be exposed to tabbaco products normally, because only drug abusers will be using it. There is no good reason to allow any of these harmful products to be legalized. Like I said before, they can hurt everyone, and the environment. It's not fair to people who don't smoke. You're forcing us to breathe in toxic and dangerous substances second-hand.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='James][color=#334366']Don't you think you've missed the point if you are talking about who is winning and losing? That sounds very childish, frankly.[/color][/quote]Hey, I'm entitled to my beliefs, I'm not being childish. And what is the point I'm missing? Anyway, I think all of us agree here that no one should be forced into a marriage. Daughters are not to be "sold" to families who you want to have business relationships with. Marriage should be about the union of two people who want to start a loving relationship together, and to raise a family together (that is if they do want kids). Instead I think the question should be raised about wether your family has a say in the spouse you choose. Everybody says "hey it's my life, I can do whatever I want with it". They're asking for complete freedom and choice. But really, can you? And should you? Why are drugs illegal? Why is prostitution illegal? Even if they don't affect others around you, They are harmful to you, that's why. The person whom you marry can greatly affect your life, and the lives of others, like your children. That's why your parents should have a say in the matter. The decision needs to be collective. Your parents are usually looking out for your best interests. If they are not, you can disobey them if they force you to do something against your will like marrying somebody. If they disapprove a good, decent person, who shares the same moral values as you, for no good reason, then in Islam, you can seek the help of an Islamic judge. They might reject him if it's a fincanial issue, but it depends. You need only expect that the man be able to support his wife and children, if he can't then he is not ready for marriage. So If a girl really likes the guy, but he's too poor, maybe you can wait a bit until the situation is better. It is important to realize what your parents have done for you. Your mother carried you for nine months in her belly, suffered the pains of childbirth, nurtured and fed you. You cannot even make up for the pain of a single contraction your mother went through. Do you not feel morally abligated to obey your mother, (and father of course), even after you become and adult? If you have kids, they are morally obligated to obey you.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004a6f]I think I've mentioned several times that no one is forcing me to marry anyone against my will. That is forbidden in Islam, and makes the marriage invalid. I get to choose my husband in the end. All I'm saying is that my parents have to agree with my choice. I'm Muslim right? So that's what I believe. [quote name='Raid3r']How is it self respecting to let a man you do not know intimately (intellectually... what is with you people obsession with sex) ride you like a triple crown horse?[/quote]What's our obsession with sex? What's our obsession with sex? I'd say ask that question about western society first! Geez! We don't like illegitimate sex because it leads to illegitimate children. Many men who have sex out of wedlock and make their girlfriends pregnant simply leave them and provide no support for the children. You don't have a right to have children out of wedlock. Why? You take away the children's rights. Anyway, there are many ways to get to know a man intellectually on a personal level, before your parents even know about him. You might have had discussions with him before, worked with him for various business reasons. The guy might directly ask you to marry him, but you still need your parent's permission, and he will have to meet with them and everything. [quote name='Raid3r']Are conversations in front of your parents going to get you to know him?[/quote]Why does everything have to be so secretive and private? It's not like they have their ears perked up to max, they're just their to prevent anything from going to far. Really, what do I need to ask him that's so personal? "So, do you like to be on top or bottom?" "So, how big is your dick?" If he's a drug addict, or has a sexually transmitted disease, or if he's a murderer, my parents need to know this. [quote name='Morpheus']If you don't know how they are when the two of you are alone they could just put on an act for you and your parents, and be abusive and dangerous with you. Why would you take that kind of risk?[/quote]That's why you ask his family and people around the community who know him on a personal level. You can't blame Islamic marriage if the man becomes abusive after marriage. That happens in western marriages too. Even if you knew the man intimately, and you've even shared a bed, they might still be abusive afterwards. You never know. Heck, I've watched America's most wanted many times, and alot of the convicts were people who've murdered their spouses, though they apperently "loved" eachother when the decided to get married. Some men even break their marriage vows, and when their wife decides to leave them, they kill her! Please provide a sensible explanation for your so called "better way to get to know someone". You're making this assumption that an Islamic marriage prevents you from getting to know the guy properly. It doesn't. I don't need to let him touch my body to know me on a personal level. He can't judge me by my "sexiness". If either person doesn't fullfill the sexual needs of the other during marriage, you can still seek divorce. [quote name='Morpheus']What Chabichou has said is the reason I am non-religious. I simply am sick of things being forced upon me. I will marry whomever the hell I want, and no one will stop me from marrying her. I don't care if she's christian. Or muslim. She could be a frickin satanist for all I care. I will eat whatever the hell I want, whenever I want. I am not going to let a book rule my life. [/quote] Morpheus, if you don't want religion telling you how to live your life, that's fine. No body is forcing you. God stated (in Islam), that there is no compulsion in religion. Humans are the only creatures that God created that have free will. God has given us a set of rules on how to live our life, but we have the free will to obey or disobey. You have the free will to believe or disbelieve. Those who obey will enter paradise. And those who don't will enter hell. Those who believe in their religion and accept it must face consequences for their actions in this life if those actions have a worldly punishment, like the death penalty for murder, rape and adultery. God asked women to cover themsleves from the eyes of men. We have the choice to obey or disobey this command. No one can force me to cover myself, but I chose to obey my lord's command. God asked people to pray five times a day. The prayers must be offered in their correct time. We can choose to obey or disobey this command. We believe God created Humans for the sole purpose of worshiping him. Worship comes in many forms, like praising God, remembering him, and obeying his commands. We believe he sent us a message, his own words, which have been recorded without alterations onto books. We can choose to obey or disobey this message. Obeying this message will guide us to the right path, and hopefully to paradise. We also believe God has our best intrests in mind when these rules were made. He has permitted everything that is good for us, or neutral, and forbidden everything that is bad. So go ahead, choose to live your life how you like. You can choose to read the message or not. You can choose to believe in it or not, and you can choose to obey it or not. You can choose to believe in God or not. Make your choice, and we will see in the end who will win, and who will lose. P.S: sorry to get off topic.[/COLOR]