John

I'll have the mods make sure "Otaku Lounge" becomes "Quantum Leap" ASAP.

*Ahem!* So yeah, Sara wrapped up the snakes thing for me, and I'm way too lazy to read any of the arguments since then. (I didn't see a rebuttal to that one, anyway.) [quote name='Generic NPC #3']Evolution is so obvious I don't even know why people question it. It may be a theory, but it works in real world situations on a regular basis. I'm continuing with my idea of "Why couldn't god be responsible for evolution?", personally. I don't see why a religous person cannot accept both, unless they honestly think the world is only a few thousand years old. If I was really religious, I would be able to comprehend the idea that "hey, maybe something like evolution was god's plan!" It's not like we have any idea how long his creation days were, if we go by Genesis.[/quote] Most Christians do go by the idea that the "seven days" thing was metaphorical, and each stage of creation could've lasted for ten seconds or ten billion years. Obviously, the latter is more likely. The reason Evolution couldn't have happened is because of the order of the creation of the animals, which doesn't line up with evolution, from what I recall. [QUOTE]As it is, half the argument in here seems to be "The bible doesn't talk about it that way, so it must not exist!" If people want to believe that, then fine... I'm all for personal faith. But denouncing what others thing and calling evolution "shaky" by comparison is rather bizarre. It's not like the Bible mentions 95% of the things that go on today either.[/QUOTE] And that's something that pisses me off about a lot of Christians, because Evolution is a solid theory. By my beliefs it's wrong, but it's a solid theory. They just think that because it [i]is[/i] wrong, that they have to attack it relentlessly to convince people of the fact, even though all it does is drive people away from Christianity. In addition, I do believe in evolution on a small scale, like you described. As for why I can believe it on that scale, but not the large one that would logically follow? Well, part of it comes down to the faith we've been debating here, and part of it could be a result of several possibilities. One of which is that evolution was set into motion after the Creation was finished, and that it'll end before we see any major results. I'm not an expert on this topic, though, and I tend to stay away from it.

[quote name='Ilium][color=darkred']In the Bible, it says that some obscure prophet or other (Maybe Abraham or somone of that creed) confronted the Pharoah og Egypt, and he tried to convince him of the existence and power of his god. The Pharaoh's two priests cast down their staves and, ta da, two snakes. Than the prophet cast down his stave and created a bigger snake which supposedly ate those two. Now, how do you explain those Priests being able to create those snakes unless by the aid of another diety(ies)? Which one is more powerful isnt the question right now, that is the Word of God himself saying that he is not the only god. That is, by the Biblical logic, infallable proof that there is more than one God. Therefore, if you take the Bible seriously, you also believe that there is more than one God. If God is hypocritical about that, that means his word is not infallable, and therefore we can deduce that God himself is in fact either lieing to us or false entirly. I choose to belive the more rational, which is the latter.[/color][/quote] You're going to scoff at this one, of course, but it was Satan. Sure, he doesn't hold a candle to God's power, but often God will let Satan intervene and affect situations anywhere from this extent to simply tempting people. He (God) does this often as a test of faith, or - less often - as punishment. (Ganymede's take on punishment, mind you, was a little over-the-edge.) I'm just going to leave this debate at that for tonight. I'll see if I can get back on tomorrow, assuming this thing isn't dead by then.

[quote name='Ilium][color=darkred']Truthfully, there is no evidence DIRECTLY.[/quote] [color=black]Which (I feel repetetive saying this) is exactly the point I was trying to make. No matter how many "mountains of evidence" you have, you still can't disprove God. As for your supporting evidence...[/color][/color] [color=darkred][quote name='Ilium']There is, however, hurrendous amounts of evidence supporting that what he supposedly did WAS fake, plagerised, wholly made up, or hypocritical. Walking on water, thats damn impossible. And if it was supossedly Divine Intervention, why, exactly, has no such miracle occured during these times, where it could be properly recorded? There is evidence that no one, NO ONE, can be swallowed by a whale, much less survive the encounter. There is even evidence, using the Bible's own Fiary-Tail logic, that God himself is not the "One True God." As I've stated before, if the direct word of God is made up, than there is not even a shred of evidence that he does exist. If somone's standing on a bridge with no supports I don't need to throw boulders onto it to make it collapse. The Theory of God collapses in on itself. And if you say faith, well, ants cannot hold up bridges.[/color][/quote] First off, I'm going to go ahead and give up on everything I've been saying about logic, evidence and its relation to God and Christianity. You haven't picked up on it yet, and I suppose you're not going to. First off, it's obvious that I will defend those events as Divine Intervention, so if you want to talk about that you're going to have to give something better than "thats damn impossible". (And even so, there are records of people being swallowed by whales and living. But that's irrelevant now, anyway.) As for why no miracles have happened in this day and age, it's mostly due to the fact that the world was in a lot worse shape back then than it is now. But it'll get worse again, so it's written, and the miracles will happen again. And elaborate on this "not the One True God" thing for me. EDIT: [quote name='Ilium][color=#8b0000]Ahh comon, it's all in good fun. Debates on the net never get anywhere, but they are DAMN fun if your into them.[/color'][color=black][/quote] That's the first thing I've agreed with you on all night, lol.[/color]

If you ask me, the fact that the name of the forum actually refers to what the forum is about is only a coincidence. We all know James only picked it out because it sounded pretty. ~_^

[quote name='Ilium][color=darkred']Aye, aye, I get it just fine. It's Faith vs Evidence, the age-old battle. You can't win againts faith, it's like bringing a nuclear bomb to fight an ant.[/quote][/color][color=black] You know, that's basically it. And instead of moping about how you can't debate faith, have you ever thought that maybe it's actually true?[/color] [color=darkred] [quote name='Illium']By the by, there is no evidence in Atlantis DIRECTLY.[/quote] [color=black]Ok, now give me some of your infallable evidence against God that [i]is[/i] direct.[/color] [color=#000000][/color] [/color][color=#000000][quote name='Sage']But this thread will surely end like all religion-themed threads before it: some excessive offending, few flaming replies, and a lock/deletion from a mod. So much for the civilized debating... ;)[/quote] Let the games begin! >=D (Actually, I may shuffle off pretty soon here, too.)[/color]

[QUOTE=Ilium][color=darkred] I think I understand Christianity just fine. You see, just saying "No, your mountians of actual evidence mean nothing to me! God soooooooooooooooooooooo did it. Even if I dont have a scrap of evidnce, he sooooooooooooooooooooo did it!" isn't enough. That's what we call blind faith, and that is one of the weaker aspects of the human mind. Yes I understand that it's all faith, but it's basically God (Who has, more or less, zero credible evidence) VS Things that prove that god is notihng but a figment of our imagination (Which, just so you know, has mountain ranges worth of imformation strangly laking from Christianity and religion in general)[color=#000000][/QUOTE] [/color][/color][color=black]You missed it again.[/color] It isn't all about the evidence. Go back and read what I said about logic again, and slower this time. And do you have evidence that God doesn't exist? Sure, I guess. I haven't heard of any myself, but I [i]will[/i] take your word on that. Wholeheartedly. However, there's also, I'm sure, real evidence that Atlantis exists. Lots of evidence, I'd venture to guess. Problem is, it doesn't. You get my drift? [QUOTE=Ganymede]Ps: for those of you who think that swearing is alright and it doesn't say anything in the bible about it. GUESS WHAT? YOU ARE WRONG!!! Take out your handy dandy bibles and flip to that wonderful New Testiment to Colossians chapter 3 verse 8. " But now you yourselves are to putt off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, FILTHY LANGUAGE out of your mouth." I believe my version is in the NIV, but I could be wrong, there might be different wording and other stuff in other bibles, so be careful. Check and see if you don't belive me, if you don't have a bible go to your local library, they should have one! ^_^[/QUOTE]Indeed I did. The Revised Standard uses the phrase "filthy talk", and the King James says "filthy communication". If you ask me, that seems to point more towards [i]what[/i] you're saying, not [i]how[/i] you're saying it. (i.e., it's actually talking about not gossiping, not telling perv jokes, etc.) And if cussing [i]is[/i] wrong, then what makes "darn" and "poop" any more virtuous or fit to speak? I do, however, appreciate you backing up your beliefs with a verse. Nobody else that I've had this discussion with could, much less would. [QUOTE=The Baronator][size=1]Perhaps the Adam and Eve story is true, and as we currently are, we are but a poor reflection of super-intelligent ancestors with three legs and numerous eyes. I feel so retarded and deformed...[/QUOTE][/size][size=2]Now there's something to ponder.[/size] [size=2][/size] [size=2]EDIT:[/size] [size=2][quote name='Ganymede']Of course some of us children are hard headed and stubborn so He will continue to punish us until we understand what we do is wrong.[/quote] That's a bit of a skewed statement, but I'm too bored to go into why, lol.[/size]

[QUOTE=Ilium][color=darkred] Give me one properly recorded shred of proof that God ever directly intervened with anything.[/color][/QUOTE] Obviously, I can't give any proof. You're missing the entire point of Christianity because you're basing everything off of logical thought and excluding faith and emotion. Those are as much a part of life as logic is, and should be looked at thusly. So no, you don't know Christianity as well as you think you do. And for that matter, saying "the wizard did it" is logical, anyway. We're not talking about some other human here, or some element of nature. We're talking about the power that created everything in existence and can do literally whatever the hell He desires with it. Since I believe that He exists, saying that he can stop incest is every bit of a logical statement. [quote name='Sage']I believe that even the events at 9/11 could have been prevented if the hijackers had stop to think "is this really what our god wants us to do?". After all, they did it because they believed they had to in order to serve their god. Defeat the enemy of their god, and all that.[/quote]That's very true, and from what I ken, most Muslims disagree sharply with those radicals. But as I just mentioned, believing in Divine Intervention is completely logical, so it doesn't compare to that situation. [quote name='Sage']I was saying that blind belief is simple, no matter what religion we are talking about, and people who shut their eyes from all other options are very simple in my opinion as well.[/quote]Again, you're right. And I don't just shut my eyes from everything else, either. Everything I believe, I weigh balancedly against all other possiblilities. Just because I [i]do[/i] believe one of those possibilites and don't believe another doesn't mean I'm shielding myself from all other options. [quote name='Sage']It's great that you get comfort in believing something, but you don't have to be so agressive in defending your faith - it will only make you look like you're uncertain. ;)[/quote]Sorry, but the only reason I defended my beliefs aggressively is because it by all means looked like you were attacking them aggressively.

[QUOTE=Sage]Sure, you can explain everything by that... ;P It's the same as "the wizard did it!" Your faith is a practical little thing, isn't it? It takes away all needs to think for yourself, or actually wonder about anything ever. Simple solution to simple people, I say...[/QUOTE]And I suppose you get this attitude from the idea that because something, anything, is simple, it must be wrong? Get off your pedastal, dude. And don't accuse Christianity of simplicity, because I can assure you that when you start learning about it, it's a hundred times as complex as Atheism. God doesn't always intervene straighforwardly like that (barely ever, in fact), but it does happen.

[quote name='Hack Helba][font=Trebuchet MS][color=royalblue]Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, which gets worse with each generation, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. When a Christian next time relies on the urban myth of "Christian Family Values" then wander how they would explain to someone the big question of "What happened after the Flood?" The only moral escape route is to admit that the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor. The only biologically correct explanation known is that we evolved slowly from lower animals so that incest was never a problem.[/color'][/font][/quote]Well, the whole reason incest was ok in those times was because God was trying to populate the Earth, and I can only assume that birth defects didn't occur because, simply enough, he made them not. That's why he's God, lol.

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]Well considering that to be a good Christian one should try to honor God through his/her actions, including speech? If so, is a loose tounge really honoring God? In fairness, cursing is usually subject to the vernacular of the culture... so I think that "cursing" sinfully falls under one's intentions. Cursing someone is a sin, but is saying "I bite my thumb at thee" at your friend a sin? Probably not... I'm speaking from a Christian perspective...[/QUOTE]Well yeah, that's the same way I feel about it, and that's why I opt to say "cussing" instead of "cursing" or "swearing", because when you hit your head on a tree branch and say "dammit!" you're not cursing the tree. (Unless you actually are, for some reason.) How you use the words (just as how you use any word) can obviously be sinful, but the words themselves aren't. [quote name='Retribution][size=1'](imagine teaching peasants more complex things...)[/quote]"Rain!" "Gravy!" "Very small rocks!"[/size]

[quote name='Hells Angel][b][font=Times New Roman][color=darkorange]I am not a christian, But I do believe in God, I dont go to church because I hate hyprocrites, I smoke and cuss, so until I can get over these habits I wont go to church.[/color][/font'][/b][/quote]Just f.y.i., don't let anyone tell you cussing is a sin. It isn't. That's an old wive's tale that some 18th century redneck mother stuck to a then-obscure Bible verse to stop her children from saying words that she didn't like. (This is coming from a Christian, mind you.)

Nice to see Shin cares about keeping up with his own threads. I'm reading The Inheritors by William Golding. It's about a small group that consists of the last of neanderthal man, and their encounters and observances of human beings. (Of course, I haven't gotten that far yet. It's taking a while for the story to get up and running.)

[quote name='Dragonboym2][color=blue']I don't think "Brazil" was a book. How come you think you'll never be able to get your hands on those movies?[/color][/quote]Erm, I was saying that I had never seen the movie Brazil, or read the other books by Orwell. I probably won't be able to get my hands on them because I don't think any of the libraries around here -- and probably most anywhere, for that matter -- would carry anything other than Animal Farm and 1984.

[QUOTE=Dragonboym2][QUOTE=Who?]I just finished rereading 1984, and I must furthermore insist that everyone with half a smidgeon of thought in their brains needs to read it. [color=blue] That's a great book. But wicked freaky. Orwell is one of my favorite writers. Have you read "Animal Farm"? It's on fastist sociity. 1984 was on English Soicalism by the way. Not Fasicsism. I don't know what else he wrote, but "1984" and "Animal Farm" are by far his most popular. Oh yeah, some inspiration from "1984" was put into Terry Gilliam's "Brazil." Have you seen that movie? It's very good. "KAMEHAMEHA!" Dragonboym2[/color][/QUOTE]I haven't seen that movie, but I do know that Orwell actually wrote a lot of other books. I've never been able to get my hands on any of them, though.

I just finished rereading 1984, and I must furthermore insist that everyone with half a smidgeon of thought in their brains needs to read it. Right now, I'm sort-of-sort-of-not reading Dave Barry Hits Below the Beltway, by Dave Barry. I picked it up for another Forensics piece for school, and it's absolutely hilarious. Basically, the book is Dave Barry poking gentle fun at American politics with sidesplitting humor. Nothing outwardly insulting or scathing -- hell, practically nothing [i]true[/i] -- is said, as you might find in books by P.J. O'Rouke, but it's still funny as all get out. I plan to start reading Weaveworld, as suggested by Tony, if I can find it at the library. If I can't, I'll try As I Lay Dying, Shin's suggestion.

I got mine on the first day of its release, being about the fifty-somethingth member. I don't think I had an incredibly clear reason for being so eager to register other than that my name, [url="http://www.myotaku.com/users/john"][b]John[/b][/url], is probably the most common one in existence (including alien planets). So I wanted to register it before someone else did. Other than that, I'm still very fuzzy on why I registered. I don't even remember if Adam made it clear as to what myOtaku [i]was[/i] until it was launched. I did end up enjoying it, however. To explain the content of my site... well, I'm not quite sure how to do that. As of recently, most of my posts have been about my daily life and things of that sort, but before that I can't explain it as more than being totally random, and even that wording doesn't seem to fit. I think that the reason I prefer myO to other blog services is by far the smaller community as opposed to other sites. The Otaku network is large enough to make you feel like you've never really seen everyone or everything, but small enough that you feel like you could. People may actually take interest in your myO, rather than just passing it by like they might with other services. Another thing that ties into that is the customizability. With a little work, you can make your site into almost anything, and that definitely helps define users clearly from one another.

...But the others were unimpressed with Lebrowski's balancing act.

[quote name='Sepiroth']Religous fundamentalist are always talking about how the unsaved are violent and kill people, etc. Load, the funny thing is most atheist and non-religous like myself, are not violent and do not kill.[/quote]I second Gravy Train in saying that I have [i]no idea[/i] what the hell you're talking about. Not even Fundamentalists think that. Guess that goes a long way to show how far making up **** off the top of your head will get you, lol. [quote name='Sephiroth']Also they say getting your children involved with youth religous groups decreases there wanting of alchol and smoking, onceagain a laod. I hae a friend who goes to 3 different churche services every SUNday, yet she still goes out and drinks and gets laid. But calls heself a good christian.[/quote]Once again, just who is telling you all this? Let me guess: your marvelous intuition. Youth groups (most of them, at least) do [i]try[/i] to get kids away from that lifestyle, but it's quite obvious that it doesn't always help. As for your friend, I'd say that that's not who you should be basing your view of Chrisitanity off of, but that's definitely more her fault than yours. [quote name='Sephiroth']In general religon is mostly for people who can not think for themselves. And need a giant light orb to tell them everything. Godelsensei is upport ya.[/quote]Hasn't this issue already been cleared up? [b]Religion is not a crutch for depressed people.[/b] And moreover, you're not cool or smart for thinking it is.

[quote name='elfpirate][b']***I'd like to point out that I am in no way an advocate of anarchy, but I do (perhaps arrogantly) think that certain laws simply do not apply...***[/b][/quote]Oh, I wasn't talking about you if that's what you're thinking. I was talking about the general populace of teenagers who take pride in breaking rules. You have a valid reason to be pissed off, because you saw a problem and actually [i]tried[/i] to do something about it.

I think rules are dandy. There's far too many stupid people out there to base everything on common sense. However, that also means that an average person doesn't always have to obey the rules outlined for the guy beside you on the airplane who's throwing a fit because the lap belts are too short to tie in an extra-safe bowie knot. One of my pet peeves is definitely people talking about anarchy. It's a pretty damn stupid idea, and showing complete disregard for the rules doesn't make you look like anything more than a jackass, anyway.

[quote name='bogger3k']Over the years people have asked people this same question time and time again and everyone always comes up with something that would seem cool. Like flying or controlling heat. In all of that time I have never, not even once, heard anyone come up with the power that I suggest that I would love to have. I would want the power of nullification. In other words the ability to stop all processes aka null otehr powers. IMO it is the best power of all based mainly on the fact that no other power could harm me because I have nulled it.[/quote]But how would that benefit you in a world where noone else even [i]has[/i] superpowers? And if other people did have superpowers, how do you stop the guy who can control time and shoot you before you have time to react?

[quote name='TOTALIMMORTAL']The most effective way to make someone change is by force. Who wouldn't change something about them with a gun to their head?[/quote]Indeed. Unfortunately, though, that just so happens to be quite punishable by law. (Surprise!) This thread is about the effect of advertising, not death threats, lol. I think that advertising does have a direct power over some weaker-minded people. However, it can still indirectly affect the decision-making process of an aware person, because advertisements nowadays are directed more towards getting noticed, rather than proving themselves to be better than their competitor. This is because when you see a lot of a product, it makes you think that it's because it's a very popular product. So when you go to the supermarket to pick up detergent, you get Downy instead of Sam's Choice Fluffin' Smells, because hey, more people were probably buying Downy, and that means it's better, right? Another case would be the iPod. A friend of mine recently wanted to get an mp3 player, and he automatically supposed that he would get an iPod, the very antithesis of cost versus function. This is because he assumed it was the best, since lots of people are buying it.

When I started reading this thread, I was thinking that I was going to actually quote stuff and respond to statements individually. Unfortunately, as happens with pretty much all internet religious debates, I quickly noticed the small size of the scrollbar. So yeah, I'm just going to respond to some of the general arguments I've seen here instead, and then maybe at a later time give a small outline of the beliefs of (at least) Baptists, so noone will feel obligated to contort everything they think they know about it into a hateful, broad generalization. Again. In response to the Original Sin argument, I feel quite certain that most Christian denomenations actually [i]don't[/i] believe in it. I don't know where anyone got that idea, but it's wrong. Everyone is born without a rational thought in their head, and they obviously can't sin without at least thinking. In response to the idea that all Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. are oppresive, maniacal hate mongers, well, you're wrong. Those people are stupid, and they are incredibly few and far between. Bottom line is that stupid people attract more attention, and consequently that's all you see in the news. Since [i]everyone[/i] knows that the news is a complete and accurate representation of life as we know it, that [i]must[/i] mean that all religious people are stupid like that, right? Pft. In response to the homosexuality thing, stop your whining. You believe that homosexuality is ok, and as an Atheist (or whatever you may be) that is a completely sensible belief. The thing you don't seem to see is that we are [b]not[/b] Atheists (or whatever), and we see things differently. Your opinions on the issue, as far as it goes politically, oppress us as much as ours do you. [b]EDIT:[/b] I had to get off the computer before I was done, so I'll finish what I was saying now. Back to the homosexuality. I even have a very controversial stance on the gay rights movement, at least coming from a Christian. I am completely 100% against gay marriage, but I do support gay [i]rights[/i]. I don't believe that God would have Christians oppress other people, even if they're sinning. People should be given the option, even legally, to sin. That's why God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from it, but if they weren't at least made aware of the option, then they would be no more than God-praising robots who only do so because it's the only thing they know. And even if this wasn't the case, what's oppressing gay rights going to do to our witness as Christians? It's going to pulverize it. There's no way we'll be able to successfully witness to a gay person again if we're known only for putting them on a lower social rung in society. So now on to the things that at least one denomenation, Baptists, believe. 1) We believe that Jesus died, rose, is the Savior and the Son of God. Very common. 2) We don't believe in homosexuality, but at least one Baptist doesn't believe in oppressing it. 3) We don't believe in Original Sin 4) We believe in telling people of Jesus and our faith, and that is something that is commanded of us. Try not to get your panties in a bunch when we do, because you are still free to believe what you will. We're just telling you what we know to be the truth, and asking you sincerely if you would like to consider what we say. 5) We are not the crazed radicals you see on channel 4 smacking people on the forehead to miraculously heal them. Not everyone who says they're a Christian really is, because it's more than a loose guideline for life. It's a spiritual relationship with God, and a belief in specific doctrines. If there's anything else you'd like to know, ask me and I'll edit it in. [b]EDIT 2:[/b] [QUOTE][font=Arial][color=#006400]I'm sorry, but this is the main reason why I hate to tie myself with any Christian religion, even though is was the one that I was raised in myself (well, Catholicism, to be honest) how can anyone go to Hell if they have lead a good life. I think that Judaism is far more fair when it comes to this part in their beliefs. How can a man/woman who raped, killed, and sinned beyond belief be accepted over a humble person, when thier only difference is that one believes in Christ and the other does not? I'm sorry, but thats the most unfair sh*^&est conclusion any person could ever come up with.[font=Tahoma][color=black][/QUOTE]Whoa there, buddy. You ask how someone who lead a good life can go to Hell? Well, how good do you think that person's life is from the perspective of the almighty, flawless God that they want to be in the eternal prescence of? Not very. By human standards, they might have lead a great life. But Heaven isn't exactly the most human location to be, is it?[/color][/font][/color][/font]

I think the biggest commonplace around here is that all the awesome people are Australian. It's pretty much true, too. I think they have some kind of fifth chemical in their DNA. "Awesium", or something. Aside from that and the persecution of the O. Lounge, I don't think there are too many commonplaces around OB. I'm not wholly familiar with everyone and everything, though.