Adahn

[quote name='Siren']You're not telling those Re-incarnated people, though, are you? Are you giving them any indication at all what to do? Come on, man. You've got nothing left. Your entire argument is falling to pieces, lol.[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I'm talking to everyone here, inculding myself.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] We've already established that there cannot be a successful Re-incarnated life without the memory wipe, so people are going to have no idea what they did wrong (yes, wrong) in their previous life. You're forcing them into this vicious cycle, and giving them no indication at all how they can help themselves.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Again, I just told you what needed to be done, and I'm talking to everyone.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] You're telling us this, yes, but nobody here buys into your theory anyway, so that's a moot support point for you.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Right. Everybody knows that if nobody believes something, that makes it untrue.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Come on. lol Furthermore, in case you didn't see the Edit, your entire take on the "Eternal life" theme of the Bible is a misinterpretation, like I explained to you over AIM. I walked you through the entire thing, remember?[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It is an interpretation. I explained to you how I was right, and you explained to me how I was wrong. I bought into what you were saying just as much as you believed what I was saying.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Ohhh, you're saying I haven't told you exactly what you need to do? Here it is. All that other stuff applies. All you have to do in addition to that is believe that Jesus saved us from sin and death, and accept his offer of eternal life. You have to have faith in it. I thought I made that clear before, but I guess not.[/color][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]By that same logic, getting into heaven is a random event, too. You have to somehow stumble across this Bible, read it, and understand that you have to believe in this Jesus fellow so that when you die, you can live in the eternal bliss of Heaven. If you fail to meet these conditions, you burn eternally, with no idea of what you've done or why everything hurts so much.[/color][/font][/b]

[quote name='Siren]I've again bolded a key sentence here. If you're re-incarnating someone as someone completely different, with no knowledge at all of their past life, how do you expect them to right their wrong in their previous life? Are you going to tell them what they need to do? [i]C'mon[/i'].[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Reincarnation is no more and no less than another chance to accept salvation and eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Then people are merely stumbling about, and there's no real, tangible salvation in store, because it just becomes a redundant rat-race on the previously mentioned hamster wheel. It comes down to pure randomness, and randomness isn't going to save anyone.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We're talking about the decisions of real people, here. Are you trying to say that every action any and every man makes is completely random?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] [size=1]Your idea has merit Adahn; Go pee yourself.[/QUOTE][/size] [size=1][/size] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes sir.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]There is alot to deal with here, but I'll do what I can.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Boba Fett, just because an idea is old doesn't mean it's right.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Ben, eternal life means no death. Reincarnation entails death. The soul always has been immortal. We all know this. If it weren't immortal, it wouldn't have been able to burn in hell. Therefore, salvation can only be for the flesh, because the soul cannot die.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]2Cr 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is just an interesting quote. If the life of Jesus is made manifest in our mortal flesh, how can it die?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Azurewolf, the leap of faith is believing that Jesus took death, and that you will never die. I'm not taking things as literally as possible. When Jesus says,[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I think, hmm, maybe this verily verily thing means he's telling the truth. When I say something preceded by "truthfully, truthfully", I expect people to take what I'm saying for what it means. This looks alot like immortality to me, how would you interpret it?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I must apologize to Siren. I should have said that reincarnation means you come back as someone different with no knowledge of your past life. That's why it's so [i]bad. [/i]It's a punishment because the life you lived was a wasted one. You don't burn in hell, which is cool, but all your thoughts and memories go away. If anything, it's worse, except for the fact that you get another chance and you don't burn forever.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I never wanted to argue with atheists/agnostics, but as I said multiple times, [i]I'll take what I can get.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]As for a resolution, the best I can hope for is for someone, anyone, to say that there's even the slimmest chance that what I'm saying isn't completely asinine, and could possibly stand by itself as a viable interpretation of the Bible. Any more than that and I'll pee my pants out of pure joy and excitement.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Really? Guess I must have missed it.[/color] [color=green]It's the end of the world. God has taken all of the living and the dead to be judged. Those found unworthy are smote. Those found worthy are lifted to heaven. Hell and death, now no longer needed, are destroyed. At least that's how I interpret Revelations...[/color][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Yeah, the end of the world happened 2,000 years ago, or sometime close to then. We're the ones who were found worthy, and now all we have to do is accept eternal life. Jesus already destroyed death, but man can still condemn himself by denying what Jesus did.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Revelation already happened. I'm not ignoring anything. Also, if you're calling the lake of fire hell, than what's the hell that's cast into the lake of fire?[/color][/font][/b]

[quote name='Ben]There is the Church's teaching, and there is yours, it seems. The two are [b]not the same[/b']. Stop trying to pass your ideas off as Christian. You've little basis.[/quote] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Chris·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn) adj. 1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I suppose I am a heretic. I'm also a Christian.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Ben] Jesus destroyed [b]death[/b] with his Resurrection, he did not destroy [b]Hell.[/b] At least, that's what the [i]Church[/i] teaches. Your stand once again seems to be different. [size=1][strike]Heretic[/strike][/size][size=2][/QUOTE][/size] [size=2][/size] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Good job. My stand is different than the Church's. I'm really glad you pointed that out.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]So, what you're saying is that Jesus destroyed death and not hell. Ok then, you've got two choices.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Jesus destroyed hell and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Jesus destroyed death, but he'll re-destroy it at the end of the world.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Ben] So....we don't want to live forever, so we deny Christ, and we are then continually reborn.... I'm not seeing much of a distinction, besides the being reborn. Being reborn implies that you die, as opposed to your supposed immortality.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yeah, immortality is eternal life. Being reborn is an immortal soul living many mortal lives. There's a difference.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Ben] Also, a question. If we accept Christ and become immortal, then what's with the whole heart-stopping-and-brain-shutting down-thing that we call death?[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It's a sort of if-Adam-hadn't-sinned-he-wouldn't-have-died kinda thing. Jesus undid what Adam did and presto, here we are with the opportunity to accept eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Ben] You've considered everything, eh? Well then, what if the love of your life doesn't accept Christ, while you do? Yay eternal loneliness! Again, what if they don't accept Christ? Stuck with the eternal loneliness, in an imperfect world.[/QUOTE] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yay for not knowing much about the bible. If you're married and you accept eternal life, your wife gets it too, and vise-versa. I think I have considered everything, actually.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Ben] Then why bother with this entire [b]11 page[/b] thread?[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Perhaps someone will realize that what I'm saying isn't inherently wrong. Maybe someone will think about what I'm saying. I sure don't [i]expect [/i]it, but it can't hurt to try.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]First, to both Ben and Boba Fett, I am ignoring nothing. I am merely interpreting everything differently. I'm not choosing which parts to believe and ignoring others, I'm taking it as a whole and doing the same thing Christians do; try to find the meaning of what is written.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [quote name='Siren]The Book of Revelations is about the [i]end of the world[/i] for a reason. It's called The Final Judgment for a reason. It's very clearly [i]prophesied[/i] in the Bible for a reason. That reason is that it [i]hasn't happened yet[/i'].[/quote] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The world ended when Jesus died. Final Judgment has already been passed.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Sleep=[i]eternal[/i] death. Lazarus died, and depending on the pretext for his death, would have either gone to Heaven or Hell. This isn't all that hard. Jesus resurrected him because Jesus was a cool guy and did that sort of thing.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I feel I must correct you. He had been dead for four days, which means (according to you) he [i]was[/i] in heaven or hell. Jesus wouldn't have pulled him out of heaven. What you're saying is that Jesus pulled him out of hell, correct?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] And remember, Christ's love redeems ([i]saves man from eternal damnation[/i]. Remember [b][i]Adam[/i][/b].). Christ has the power, and he used that power to save Lazarus.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Christ's love saves us from [i]death[/i]. I remember Adam, Adam brought death to man. If Christ has the power to bring men back from hell, then when he died, he destroyed hell, [i]just like I said before.[/i] He has the keys to hell and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [i]Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.[/i] [QUOTE=Siren] This isn't a hard concept to understand.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I don't understand how he could pull a man out of hell and not do the same for everyone else. Revelation is what happened. It was done when Christ died. The end of the world happened, it's just that people missed it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Sleep=[i]eternal[/i] death. People will not be dead forever. This refers to Revelations, the Final Judgment, and then, after the judgment, eternal happiness in the Kingdom of Heaven. The death is a transformation, and death is[i] unavoidable[/i]. Are you claiming to be immortal, Adahn? [i]No, your Hell is a Bill Murray movie called Groundhog Day[/i]. Humans dislike redundancy. That much should be clear from the posts by AzureWolf, Sciros, Baron Samedi, Dagger, and myself in this very thread.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]So, death is unavoidable. Hmm, I thought I made a pretty good point that Jesus took death from us, seeing as he said it [i]over and over and over and...[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, I am claiming to be immortal. No, you don't live the same day over and over again. If you fail to accept eternal life now, then you get another chance, with another life. You people don't want to live forever? Then by all means, deny what Jesus did and keep being reborn. It's your choice.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Adahn, you're not improving the existence of anyone by forcing them to endure consecutive existences on into infinity simply because they can't accept this "truth" you've arbitrarily constructed.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This doesn't happen forever. We will all be changed (made immortal). I'm going to have my immortality now. You can wait if you like, it's none of my concern.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Furthermore, you're not improving the existence of anyone by having them endure one endless existence, because, let's face the facts: nobody wants to live forever, because they'll always be alone. Everyone they know will have died. They'll never be able to have any lasting relationships. Have you even considered the implications of what you're preaching here? You're talking about putting people into a vicious existential cycle that they have absolutely no control over, except if they submit to your will, and then, if they do, you're putting them into an endless singular existence in which they'll be alone forever. Immortality is boring as hell.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, I've considered everything. This isn't one person being immortal and seeing everyone die. Everyone can be immortal, including those you love. Tell me that you would rather die than live forever with the love of your life, and I will tell you that you don't deserve to love anyone if you can't love them forever.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Your idea is no better than the [i]Christian[/i] idea of Hell, because the [i]Adahn[/i] idea of Hell is just as bad. The Christian Hell is a [i]physical[/i] torture; your Hell is a [i]psychological[/i] torture. C'mon, man, just admit it. You haven't thought this out at all, yet you still expect everyone to follow you because you think you arrived at the answer.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It is bliss! You get to live forever with those you love, right here! I expect nobody to follow me. I only intend to show you all what I believe, how it is better than what is believed today, and that I cannot be proven wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] EDIT: Also, Ben and Boba Fett have posted here with some good points, and you have yet to reply to them. Please do so. I'd be interested in what you would try to use in a rebuttal.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Done and done.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][color=#000000]rev·e·la·tion [/color][url="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Drevelation"][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg[/img][/url][color=#000000] ([/color][color=red][font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font][/color][color=#000000]) [/color][url="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html"][color=#0033ff]Pronunciation Key[/color][/url][color=#000000] (r[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gif[/img]v[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif[/img][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]-l[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif[/img][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif[/img]sh[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]n)[/b] [b][i]n.[/i] [/color] [list=1][list=1] [*]The act of revealing or disclosing. [*]Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized. [/list] [*][u][i]Theology.[/i][/u] A manifestation of divine will or truth. [*][b]Revelation[/b][i] Abbr. [/i][b]Rev.[/b] or [b]Rv.[/b] [u][i]Bible.[/i][/u] See table at [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Bible"][color=#0033ff]Bible[/color][/url]. [/list][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I believe that this already happened.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [size=2][b][i]Jhn 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.[/i][/b][/size] [size=2][b][i]Jhn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.[/i][/b][/size] [size=2][b][i]Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.[/i][/b][/size] [b][size=2]First of all, take note of how Jesus uses the word sleep, I will refer to it later. Secondly, this Lazarus guy died, correct? So, Jesus pulled him out of eternal damnation? I think not. Jesus saved him from having to be born again. There is no hell Siren, or this man would have burned in it eternally.[/size][/b] [size=2][b][i]1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[/i][/b][/size] [b][size=2]What is sleep again? Sleep is death. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. This means that the world [i]will[/i] be perfect. It also says that some will never die. All I'm doing is accepting my salvation now, while the rest of you would rather just die. I believe that the world will be good, and I will not die before I see that, nor will I die afterwards.[/size][/b] [size=2][b]EDIT:[/b][/size] [b][size=2]Hell generally has the meaning of eternal torture and damnation. There is no hell, only what we know. Heaven and earth, life and death, immortality, they're all right here. My hell (as you use the word) is another chance at eternal life. It's not so much a punishment as a lack of a reward.[/size][/b][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Really? I'd say that Christianity is exactly the kind of religion that would allow unsaved children to burn. After all, the god it worships wasn't above killing all the firstborn sons of Egypt to punish one man for stubbornness...[/color][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I don't think those children burn. Yes, they were killed, but if reincarnation is true, those children were reborn. This is one of the points of Christianity I challenge; its hell.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']Your first complaint applys far more to fundamentalism than to Christianity as a whole. The church that my family attends is not a part of some extremist sect--our minister recently served as the moderator of the Presbyterian General Assembly--but very few of its members believe that only Christians will go to heaven.[/quote][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I believe that only people who accept Jesus can enter heaven...[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Dagger IX1] It's impossible to stop sinning altogether. To me it seems as though you're implying otherwise, but perhaps I'm over-reading.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Is it?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [QUOTE=Dagger IX1] You assume that death automatically causes or is somehow equivalent to suffering. Death can be (and often is) peaceful, even welcomed, particularly by those who have lived long and fulfilling lives. Is it wrong for someone who is very old and physically weak to yearn to meet his God? As you near the end of your life, your body does start transforming into a useless shell. The human body, much like human nature, is inherently imperfect--I, for one, certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity as I am now. [/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I make no such assumption. Death is a sacrifice. To accept death is to deny everything Jesus did. An old person who wishes to meet his God after death will only find himself with another chance to accept Jesus. If Jesus is in us, and life works in him, then aging can be stopped. Would you not want to be forever young?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Dagger IX1] God may have modeled our capacity to love and care after his, but people all [i]look[/i] very different. So much of the Bible tells us to think not of wordly matters; what could be more worldly than one's own physical form? What could be a better reward for true faith than being allowed to transcend the limitations of that form? The body is not "useless," but it should definitely come second to the soul. What would you tell people who were born (or have become) crippled, or people who hate their bodies for being deformed or unattractive? I'd take eternal life in heaven over eternal life in my earthly body any day.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Jesus healed the sick with the power of faith. Why would Jesus heal the physical form of so many if it meant nothing? If Jesus healed the crippled with faith, then the crippled can heal themselves using the same power. If your earthly body were perfected by faith, would you still toss it away?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Dagger IX1] FYI, I'm agnostic. I was raised Christian and still attempt to keep up with church affairs, but it's not something that truly appeals to me in my heart of hearts ~Dagger~[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Why does Christianity not appeal? I was not raised a Christian, and here I am today, a Christian.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT[/color][/size][/font][/b] [size=2][QUOTE=Siren][/size] Adahn, are you viewing the Original Sin/Death thing as purely black and white? Either someone knows Jesus or they will die? Now, I'm not a smart man, but I'm pretty sure there are some major parts in the Christian religion/theology that allow you to redeem yourself, just like how Jesus is the Redemption of Adam.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]I don't understand what you're trying to say. Believing that Jesus saved us from sin and death is redemption.[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] A young child, while inherently Sinned through Original Sin, is not doomed to burn in hellfire, because that child can redeem his or herself by accepting Jesus' love, or the "Truth." "Repent and ye shall be saved" should ring a bell..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]I don't understand what you're trying to say here either.[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Now, I've gathered from your numerous posts/rants here that your idea is better, because there's no burning in hell..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Yes, that is a part of why my idea is better.[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Maybe I'm just missing some key point here, but you've said numerous times that if people don't accept your "Truth," they're going to burn in Hell, and if they accept your "Truth," they will live in eternal happiness or pleasure, or something to that effect..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]I said I don't believe in hell. If you don't accept my truth, you are reborn. You misunderstand.[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] Everyone, am I the only one who does not see any difference at all between Adahn's "solution" and the Christian doctrine of Redemption?.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]You are basing everything after this on your misunderstanding.[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] We've got Adahn's "Accept the 'truth' and you will be saved," and then Christianity's "Accept the 'truth' and you will be saved.".[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Christians say, "Accept the truth, and after death, you will go to heaven." I say, "Accept the truth, and you will never die."[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] The eternal happiness/bliss that Adahn's preaching here...it's no different than the Christian idea of Heaven..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Yes it is...[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] [i]There is absolutely no difference between the two ideas[/i]..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Yes there is...[/color][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Siren] This thread is over..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Is it really? Perhaps you should ask me what my ideas are before mangling everything I've been trying to say.[/color][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]First to Baron. I don't have to put myself in harm's way on purpose, because I do it very often unintentionally. I should have died lots of times (most of them while in some sort of car), but I never even get scratched. The earth actually is a pretty nice place. It was made for us. The only thing that's wrong with it is that it is filled with those who won't stop sinning. The earth is perfect for those who accept Jesus. I'm having a good run of it, anyway.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Next, to Dagger. My main gripes are...[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. The Christian belief that everyone gets one life, and if one doesn't accept Jesus in that life, one will burn eternally.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. The Christian belief that one can only attain eternal life after one has died.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]3. The Christian belief that the body is a shell carrying the infinitely more important soul.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'll explain these a little bit. By the Christian belief, anyone who doesn't accept Jesus burns eternally when he/she dies. They insist everyone has the same chance. This is quite simply untrue. There are millions of people, including children, who are not presented with Christianity, and who die without ever having a chance. Tell me a 5-year old living in a native tribe untouched by civilization has the same chance as you or I of accepting Jesus, and I will call you a liar.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The next two go together. Our souls cannot die, so why do Christians insist that Jesus took death from our spirit, and not from our bodies? Is life such a punishment that we must suffer death to escape it? I believe that Jesus didn't lie when he said he took our sins. Sin and death cannot exist without each other. If Jesus took sin, he took death. If you deny this, then you deny everything he did. God created us in his image. I do not think that the body was meant to be a useless shell that houses the spirit.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm done for now, respond if you so desire.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Did that "infiltrator" talk to any of the workers? No, he didn't. He showed a video with probably a few scattered instances of hitting a chicken against a cage, and edited out hours of normal work. You're taking this PETA guys opinion as fact, when nobody has talked to the workers. I doubt that they are hitting the chickens for the pure pleasure of it. Those animals are no longer seen as living creatures to those workers, they are just something that has to be worked with. A misbehaving chicken is no different to them than a machine that isn't doing its job. The ideal chicken would sit in one place quietly waiting for death. Good chicken. If a machine starts to malfunction, what do you do? You smack it until it starts working again. I doubt that there is anything malicious in the workers' intent, and all of you are just assuming that this PETA guy is painting an unbiased picture of the factory. Ha ha ha, an unbiased PETA person. I crack myself up.[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Since this whole reincarnation bit isn't spelled out in the Bible, as it is in other religions, you'd have to pretty broadly interpret some very vague quotes to come to that conclusion. Care to share them?[/color][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]This is not easy, but I will do what I can. I know you can interpret these to your own ends, as can I, but I will show you that my conclusions are not unfounded.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][i]1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The first thing you should know is that when I read the Bible, the womb and the grave seemed remarkably similar to me.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][i]Psa 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This supports my vague idea that reincarnation is a punishment because nobody will remember who you were or the deeds you accomplished in life.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b]Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.[/b][/color][/size][/font][/i] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This speaks more of rising from the grave (womb). It also speaks of the pit, and makes a distinction between it and the grave.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b]Pro 30:16 The grave; and the barren womb; the earth [that] is not filled with water; and the fire [that] saith not, [It is] enough.[/b][/color][/size][/font][/i] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here, the grave and the barren womb are placed together, and used in a comparison with the parched earth that always wants water and fire that always wants fuel. I could write an essay about what I think about this, but the basic idea is that the womb and the grave are opposites. The womb is dependent on the grave. The fire is dependent on life sprung up on the earth. If a womb is barren, the grave is useless to it (no reincarnation). If the earth is barren, then it can provide no fuel for the fire.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]In the grave, there is no work, device, knowledge, or wisdom. I always thought hell gave people a chance to suffer their minds to know their wrong, but here it says all is forgotten. Does this not seem to work with the womb? You can't do anything, there are no objects to work with, there is no knowledge, and there is no wisdom.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Job thinks that he is being condemned by God, but is still faithful. He doesn't say "naked I was born, and naked will I die". He says he's going back to the womb, because God has seemingly forsaken him. I do not see why he would say that unless he meant it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, and wrist cutter, heaven is on earth, but not for people like her *shudders*.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b][i][b] [font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b][/i][b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]I'm not PETA. I just used those as...examples. Biased, I know ~_^ How about another example. A boy finds a wounded bird on the road. He picks it up, and takes it home. He the sets it's broken wing on fire. After extinguishing it, he crushes its body with a brick, and then kicks its [presumably dead] body into the garden. Isn't that a nice tale? The moral of the story: According to increasingly violent Americans, acts of wanton cruelty to animals are acceptable as long as the creatures death was likely anyway.[/size][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]You forgot one thing. He has to eat the birdie.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT: I'm not doing that to animals. The argument is that we shouldn't eat meat because of how the animals are treated, not whether or not cruelty to animals is right or wrong. PETA thinks you're an abominable person if you eat meat because of how the animals are treated. I think PETA is retarded.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']So, you're the first one to stumble upon this amazing concept...[size=2][/quote][/size][/size] [size=1][size=2][/size][/size] [size=1][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Perhaps not the first, but I was born and bred for this sort of thing. I almost died while I was very young, I almost crashed headfirst into a tree while sledding. However, I stopped, and there was no explanation for how it happened. I then told my atheist mother that I saw a white ghost on top of a tree. I didn't know what angels were, and she didn't believe in them, yet she insists that that is what I said, while she would have gained nothing from making it up. I was not raised a Christian, and am therefore not brainwashed into blind faith, at all.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] Anyway, what about the idea that there is no aim or reward in life, except the chance to experience it again and again. Eternal life.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]If you think that dying and being reborn is a good thing, well then you're in good shape. It's not eternal life, it's an eternal cycle of death and rebirth.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] Or that you are re-incarnated until you reach Nirvana?[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]There's more truth in this than you know. I don't know Buddhist teachings, and yet I got the impression that reincarnation until one could accept Jesus was the way things worked. I said before that there was a certain amount of truth in other religions. Is not Nirvana an ascension in life, not achieved after death? Is it not a change during life? It says in the Bible that not all shall sleep, some shall be changed. Sounds alot like Nirvana to me...[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] Surely there is merit in these things. Or, if you'd care to look at the atheistic or impartial side of the argument, what if there is no hell or no heaven, because God does not exist.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]There is no hell, and heaven is right here on earth.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] You're quite right: It makes no sense to give people one chance and then send them to hell. What if you lead a good life, but didn't believe? What if you died young? What if you never heard of Christianity?.[/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Exactly. This problem, and every other, is solved by reincarnation rather than eternal damnation. If you die young and have never heard of Christianity, you live again with another chance. By the Christian interpretation, if you die young and have never heard of Christianity, you had the same chance as anyone else and deserve to burn eternally.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [QUOTE=Baron Samedi] I think that logically, if you're a believer, the Nirvana kind of image is the most logical. Why would a compassionate God allow you to live forever on this world? An immortal would be caged, and examined. Would watch everyone they love around them die. Is that fair reward? I think not.[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]There are those that I love who will die, but it brings joy to my heart knowing that their souls will live on. As for being caged and examined, I don't think God would allow that. If he did, however, I guess I would be caged and examined. My only proof of my immortality is that I am alive right now.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Er? This whole reincarnation thing doesn?t strike me as any interpretation of biblical teaching that I?m familiar with. I?ve always been taught that people who accept Jesus into their lives, ask for forgiveness and live by his word will be accepted into heaven. Heaven, to my understanding is permanent. As is hell, so I?ve been taught. Is this your own interpretation of the bible (Which version, by the way), or a Protestant splinter interpretation (If so which)?[/color][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]This is my own interpretation. I got it from the Bible, and never read anything like it anywhere else.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The thing about that teaching is that you get things like children burning eternally in hell. They say that everyone has a chance, but by their own definition they condem millions. Why would God create a soul that had no chance of getting into heaven? Why would he create someone who he knew would burn eternally in hell?[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT: Sorry, Baron, you posted after I replied. There are no immortals simply because nobody has ever believed what I'm saying now. I'm no messiah, but rather one of the first to see the truth (if I'm right).[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]It's the morality of the issue. It's like raping a woman who's on Death Row; it doesn't matter because she's going to be dead soon anyway. Right? Or beating up a kid with cancer. Or going out and bashing quokka's as a group of boys did on Rottnest a year or so ago. It's wanton cruelty, and if you did it to anything else, you'd be in trouble.[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]There's a difference between people and animals. If you disagree, you're a PETA person and you scare me. It's not like raping a woman who's on Death Row; it's more like raping a chicken. If you don't see a difference, then there's no point arguing with you, because you're a crazy PETA person (runs away screaming)[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Yeah, I haven't skimped on the post quantity (over 1/3 of the total)[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here are the basic ideas which I have already supported, but will gladly do so again.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Man was created to not die.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Adam brought sin unto us, and the punishment for sin is death.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]3. Death does not bring about eternal damnation, but rather a cycle of death and rebirth as a punishment.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]4. Jesus came to earth and died to take away our sins.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]5. He freed us from the law of sin and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]6. Those who accept Jesus' sacrifice will be given eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]7. The soul always has been eternal, and salvation is for the flesh.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]8. Eternal life is achieved through life, not death.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]9. Denying Jesus' sacrifice by accepting death (which he has taken away) is paying for blood with blood.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]10. Jesus was the final sacrifice, and he will not let us pay for his gift of eternal life with our own blood.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I felt like making it ten. I just came up with these now, and I may have made a mistake, so if I've made an error in judgment here and now, know that I understand that I am human and that I make mistakes.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]And because I have not read the Bible, my opinions are worth nought, and my logic, illogical? I have yet to see you reply to some of my earlier posts, indeed your last post was basically a rant, ignoring the contents of the very post you quoted o_O Your argument is based on faith, faith in the veracity of the Bible, and after that, faith in your own reasoning. Thats fine. Don't assume that you are right though. Because you may well not be. Your blind faith means that your opinions on the matter may be taken with a grain of salt too. I'd like to see you take a look at some of my posts in this thread, ones that you seem to have glazed over, and I'd like to see you answer them. Because, this is going nowhere.[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]You're arguing against the veracity of a book you've never read. Repost you ideas, as bluntly as possible, and I'll address them. There are about 120 posts here, and I'm not going to search yours and 40 some of mine to figure out what I didn't get to. If nobody will argue with me, why can't I assume I'm right? My faith is anything but blind. It was, once, before I hadn't read the Bible. My opinions are worth more than yours, because not having read the Bible, you essentially don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Read the book yourself, and speak for yourself.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Adahn, this isn't just slaughter, with which I have no problem, it is torture. With which I do have a problem. Is there any need to beat, slap and otherwise mutilate chickens? The slaughter of them isn't worrying. It is the cruelty inherent in some of the workers actions which is the problem. Chop their heads of and they're dead Adahn. You don't need to beat them against the wall first.[/size][/QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I could do a better job of torturing chickens. If I had to work with the stupid things all day and they were squawking and flapping around and jumping out of their little box, I'd be pissed too. I watched the movie, and it really wasn't that bad. He probably had hours of footage, and that was the worst of it. You have to remember, also, that this guy is PETA (shudders). There's just a little bit of bias in anything and everything they say.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, and if you've got an excitable chicken that always hops out of its pen, maybe it does need to be calmed down a little bit. Short of giving it a tranquilizer, banging it up against something is probably the best course of action.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen][size=2]I don't see why everyone gives pain such a hard time. Pain is a physical response to stimuli which are harmful to the individual. It is an unpleasant sensation with the function of causing the individual to remove itself from the harmful stimulus. We humans are pampered in that we're taught that nobody has any right to cause pain to another. All animals feel pain, and all animals die. What difference does it make whether one feels pain and death at our hands or natures'? Maybe it's better than starving to death in the wilderness or being eaten alive by some other animal. I've gone squirrel hunting before. Once I shot a squirrel, only nicking its neck, and I watched it run down the tree, move around in agony on the forest floor, and die a horrible death. I guarantee that that one little squirrel felt more pain than any one of those chickens. I ate that squirrel, and it tasted like chicken. I personally don't care what happens to my food before I eat it, so long as it is prepared in a hygenic manner. It would be okay for me if every chicken were personally and brutally tortured before being killed. Why? Because I wouldn't do a much better job of killing the critter humanely, myself. It's food, chobit. However, if someone pokes my cat with a stick, he can expect a swift and brutal *** kicking. I don't eat cats. I hug them and their soft and warm :D[/size] [/color][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f][/color][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I suppose that if you really like chickens and kept them as pets, I could sympathize with you, but chickens are food to me. Nobody cares about people brutally slaughtering plants, do they? No. Why? Plants can't respond physically to harmful stimuli, making pain an unnecessary response. We shouldn't have to work around a normal physical response just because it is paralleled in us, and we have a level of sympathy. Animals always have had the purpose of either feeding us or being cute and letting us pet them. I have petted chickens, but I've also eaten them. Next thing you know people will be knocking on my door telling me to get rid of my cat because it tortures mice before it eats them. Or to eliminate all lions and tigers because they kill other animals and eat them alive.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I do agree with you on one point, though. I'm not a big fan of people killing animals for fashion. The only animal I'll wear is sheep, and the last time I checked, you could get wool from a sheep without killing it or hurting it.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f][/color][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f][/color][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]My life is a total cakewalk. High School was a *****, and College is infinitely easier by comparison. I have scholarships based both on my academic ability and my parents' low income. I essentially don't have to really pay for anything, and my parents give me whatever I want (not that I ask for much). People here at College are nice, and I'm nice back. I find many opportunities to help people with Chemistry, or rather opportunities come knocking on my door with lab manuals in their hands. I'm blessed with a divine ability to learn, so I never required any pushing to do extraordinarily well in school, not even from myself. I can look at myself and say, "It's really not fair for all those people out there." I don't really have any problems, with anything. I get to go to Florida over Christmas to see the girl that I love, and I get to come back to more of the same. I guess everyone should just be more like me.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]That was alot of fun to write. I don't know about you, but I feel better :D [/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Adahn, the only Biblical text I've ever read, was the Easter Story, lol. I do have a general idea of the...plot of this 'novel' though ~_^ Sorry. Couldn't help myself, lol. Anyway, just from an un-educated layman's point of view, there are a lot of similarities in the main events between various myths. Christianity is more like the more peaceful version of the older tales. Somewhat. Anyway, here is a quote which may illustrate somewhat, the difficulty that must be had in dealing with Biblical texts. And yes Adahn, your flaw is that you cannot view this topic with any...equilibrium in you. You cannot accept either a) the possibility that you are wrong, or b) the possibility of mistakes, or rather, untruth in the Bible. And that is a vital flaw. If you can't look at what the other side is saying, how can you defend your own position? Right here, I could say that the Bible is untrue. I found it to be so in my heart, and now I know [through my 'need' for knowledge] that it is untrue. And you're wrong. I couldn't prove that. Same as you cannot prove your point, because it is based on faith, not proof. And faith comes out of a 'desire' to believe. You want to believe.[/size][/QUOTE][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b]Forgive me for being blunt, Mr. Samedi, but you haven't read the damn book. You are therefore in no position to make any statement about its truth or untruth, and any and all comments from you regarding its "rightness" can be taken with a grain of salt.[/b][/color][/size][/font] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]No **** I can't prove the Bible. The funny thing about religions is that they cannot be proven, or they wouldn't be based on faith anymore. Could it all be wrong? It's possible. Could it all be right? It's possible. Which is better? The Bible being right. You can't prove me wrong, and I can't prove you wrong. That debate cannot bear intellectual fruit, but I will go through the motions nonetheless. As I said to start, and as my voice will ring throughout eternity, this thread was directed at those who believe in Christianity, in one form or another. They still have their chance to reply, but until then, I will banter back and forth with you people, especially Siren, because he's just so damn smart.[/color][/size][/font][/b] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT: If at all possible, I would appreciate your opinions as to whether my interpretation is, in fact, better than the Christians', (on a moral or logical standpoint), or if my views are inherently morally wrong and/or illogical.[/color][/size][/font][/b]