Qukey

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by StrikeGundam [/i] [B]First of all, that isn't even the definition of chivalry. If anything at all, Treize is chivalry personified. He was always the great conquerer, who felt that it was so dishonorable to have long range weapons, that he omitted them completely from his own personal gundam. If that isn't a shining example of chivalry, you show me one better.[/QUOTE] The definition of chivalry does not lie in close range or long range weapons or about being a conquerer. It is about bravery, courtesy and honor. If you want a good example, check out Mashymre Cello of Gundam ZZ. He is a true knight. A true knight has to show great qualities not only in his speech, but great skills in defending his belief without throwing away the human inside him. [QUOTE] There is no way that everyone (save Treize) was presented as completely perfect. Take Heero for example. In the begining of the series, he is presented as the perfect soldier, but that was only on the surface. [spoiler]After he meets Relena, (and even before that, as shown in endless waltz) his feelings begin to break the surface and interfere with him untill he accepts them[/spoiler] Wufei is another example. [spoiler]He feels that he and Nataku are the greatest warriors ever; that is, until he is defeated in a sword duel by Treize. How can you be perfect if someone else beats you?[/spoiler] [/QUOTE] Don't you think the characters are create as "perfect"? They are the "perfect" soldiers without any feeling or hestiation on the subjects to kill. So, if a person is defeatable, they are not perfect? When talking about a character, it is not if he/she can be defeated, but can make mistakes and suffers from it. Do the characters in GW feel sorry for the countless soldiers they killed? No, because they think they are doing the right things. If the characters are always doing the right thing, they must be perfect, like the characters in Gundam Wing. Only the people in OZ and everyone over 25 who make mistakes because the main characters can not be wrong!

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Haze_Gundam006 [/i] [B]Qukey, [spoiler]Zechs wanted to destroy earth for a very logical reason. If you look at when he decides to destroy earth, you will see that he is then fighting for the colonies.[/spoiler][/QUOTE] When did Zechs fighting for colonies? The problem is, he has no reason for doing that! He did not come from colony and Earth is his home, even when he is in OZ. [QUOTE][spoiler]He believes that earth will be the destruction of the colonies. So why not destroy it? Why not destroy the thing and all of the people on it that are trying to destroy them? Why not destroy the two factions that are trying to take over the entire world, but will probably bring about the end of the earth in their quest for power? Why not just end all of the colonies problems?[/spoiler] [/QUOTE] Zechs does not have a very good understanding of colonies as he is not one of them. He has never experience the corrupting of the sky or have to calculate the air the breath. That is what the people in colonies have to experience. However, do they want to destroy Earth? No, Earth is a hope of freedom that they don't need to worry about enemies put gases or holes on your ground and they can breath freely. [QUOTE][spoiler]If he causes complete winter year round on earth, no one will be able to live there. In fact all of teh people that are on it will probably die, which pretty much serves Zechs' end because all of the OZ and Romefeller people will be on earth. The end of earth is the end of the colonies' problems.[/spoiler] Or at least it is in Zechs' opinion.[/QUOTE] Can that bring peace by killing off a potion of human population? Is Earth the source of all evil, not human? There are a lot more people on Earth than in space. The population in space is much smaller than the UC timeline. People build colonies because they can. There is not a very serious problem of overcrowding on Earth. So, the population in colony is considerably small. If human can not reproduce in space, what will happen? It leads to the end of mankind. Someday, war will start again and people will fight for the right of living on Earth again. [spoiler]Now, look at Char. Char is from Side 3 and his father is Zeon Daikun. However, Char has lived on Earth after the death of his father. So, he love Earth and space equally, maybe more for Earth. He doesn't want to kill everyone on Earth, but the drive them to space so they can become newtypes.[/spoiler] Does destroying Earth can bring peace? It is the people who wants to fight, not Earth! [QUOTE] Like I said before it is no wonder that almost all of the shows after the original in the Gundam Saga would have characters that are somewhat like Char. Char helped make gundam extremely popular. The only reason so many gundam shows exist is because they want to make money. They saw how well teh original did, and so they still want more of that.[/QUOTE] Maybe you should check out some of the better Char copies in other Gundam series. I love the Char-like characters in Gundam but at least make them good with the depth of Char, not his look. Some are done right but Zechs is not one of them. [QUOTE] To answer your question about the plot twists being logical, I don't suppose it matters. I mean, are the plot twists in anything logical?[/QUOTE] Everything has to be logical still. When there is plot twist, the watchers must be able to find supporting reasons for the decision later on. That make the story with depth so the watchers can think about the story and the intention of the director. [QUOTE] If you are watching a movie and the main character goes down into the dark, scary basement where screams are coming from and some big scary monster is inevitably down there waiting to kill them, is it logical for the character to go down there? I don't think so! It is just how the writers wrote it. Those twists are there for a reason. Maybe they don't want to give something away just yet, so they add in some type of twist to draw it out. I think all of them serve some type of end that makes the series better.[/QUOTE] So, now, look at the story. Does it have enough reasons for the main characters to walk down there? Does it have enough reasons for not walking down there? If this is a horror movie, you don't need a reason because being a horror movie is enough reason. But, it is a romatic drama, is it logical to have a hairy monster in the basement? [QUOTE] The emotions of the character are what define a character. So yes, they are valid. They act in the manner that was given to them. Treize will always be chivalaristic. Heero will always be the silent, perfect killer. It's just how it works. [/QUOTE] Is Treize really that chivalaristic? He has never shown any weakness in normal human. He can easily gain power and lose power whenever he wants. He still has to right to choose when he wants to die. Not alot of people in the world can be that lucky. He doesn't really has any emotion at all. Do we feel his pain, happiness or sadness? No, we don't because, like any other GW characters, he is created as perfect without any flaws. Is Heero's life sad? It is what we should feel but we don't. We still enjoy seeing him blowing up countless nameless and voiceless pilots. Is there any emotion there? He doesn't have any, so we don't need any as well. Right, he was trained since very young! He was not suppose to have any emotion! Then, why do we have to feel for him if he doesn't feel anything himself.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Haze_Gundam006 [/i] Does it really matter? I mean, they are both great shows so why fuss? If you liked the original as much as it seems, shouldn't you like Wing as well since they have various plot similarities? But in Bandai's defense they did change a few things to make it to where Zechs would not be Char in a different series with a different name. I don't think that Char [spoiler] ever stopped wearing the mask and became a pacifist at times; then started his own rival faction to destroy earth. If he did, then I completely missed something. Maybe I did. . . [/spoiler][/QUOTE] [spoiler]Char has not wear his mask since the fall of the Zabis at the end of MSG. He has revenged his father's death, more importantly, he has realized the goal of his life: Newtype. Is he a pacifist? No, but he doesn't enjoy killing for sure. Watch Episode 37 of Zeta and listen to his Dahka speech. Char was given the leadership of AEUG after the death of the leader and he later becomes the leader of Neo Zeon fighting against the Earth Federation Governement. He purchased Axis from Earth Federation and dropped it on Earth to cause nuclear winter. So, tell me, does this look like Zechs' life? [/spoiler] Almost all Gundam series has a clone/copy of Char in it. Lancelaw of GX and Harry of Turn A are just some of the examples. They don't copy the look from Char or his background, but his emotion and his depth. That is what I look at in an anime. MSG has done all the emotion right and in great detail. They are believeable without going outside their mental bounds. [QUOTE] Honestly I don't think anything is wrong with either of the series. I was brought up on Gundam Wing. To this day it is my favorite anime of all time. I enjoyed figuring out all of the plot twists and character emotions. It is a "thinking" kind of anime. But my next favorite is G Gundam. I loved it as well. The characters were completely loveable, and they were the kind of characters that made you watch the show so you could see what happened next. The show has its own complexities and plot twists.[/QUOTE] That is nothing wrong of liking GW but doesn't the plot twist really logical? Does the emotion of the characters valid? This is what we have to look when watching a show. If you can compare MSG with GW in detail, you can see GW is not well planned at all. In additon, can someone tell me why Zechs want to freeze the Earth? The most logical explaination I have is because Char has done it in CCA.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by StrikeGundam [/i] [B]:flaming: Also, as far as I know, Wing was never meant to be based on the first Gundam sseries, so it really cant pretend to be something that it doesn't want to be. [/B][/QUOTE] Then, it is really hard to explain the situation of Zechs and Char. Zechs is obviously the Char of GW. They both wear red and silver masks, they have younger sisters and they are planning their revenge of their fathers. Also, the ending of GW tv is almost identical to the ending of CCA except that Heero is not killed in a magical way. Someone tries to drop something big on Earth and a single Gundam stops it. Tell me that is original from GW. GW wants to be MSG, actually, Bandai wants all AU to be MSG for its success. Bandai wants to duplicate the success of MSG in every other series. If G Gundam is Gundam meets DBZ, then GW is Gundam meets Saint Seiya.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Katana [/i] And WHY? That's my big money question. I am awfully curious to know why everyone on the face of the Gundam forum hates G Gundam and SD Gundam so freakin' much. It appears that I am the opposite of everyone else...I can't stand Gundam Wing, or any of those Gundam series with mobile suits...they just bother me. ~_~ Anyways, back to subject. G Gundam appeals to me because, I think, it has more of a storyline and plot. And it's easy to understand. The fight scenes are pretty cool but don't take up half or 3/4 of the episode. The characters develop over time and there is a wide range of theme (characters), from eight year old kids to sixty year old men (or so). [spoiler]And it has a pretty nifty opening theme.[/spoiler][/QUOTE] For many people who was introduced into the Gundam franchise through GW or Seed think G Gundam is an insult of their "deep political war stories". G Gundam has some very interesting characters and a deeper theme than most people expected. If they can actually spend the time watching the show, they may understand who G Gundam is a true Gundam series with true Gundam themes. Anyone who think G Gundam should not be Gundam doesn't understand Gundam at all. In addition, since North America has never seen a true Super robot show, the style used in G is so different from what they know about robot show. It is always labelled as Gundam meets DBZ in North America without knowing the history of Super robot. [QUOTE] SD Gundam. Why does everyone hate this show so much? The only reasons I've seen is "It's too childish". Well DUH! It was intended for children, geniuses. I really like this series. I think it's a good change of pace for the dudes who created Gundam. The colors are nice a bright, the episodes are (for the most part) hilarious, and the evil dudes aren't exactly evil. Or smart for that matter. Sure, I can't stand Captain Gundam (I hate main characters), but I do like the other characters. Zero and Bakunetsumaru have good and bad traits to themselves, like every charcter does, and they actually have compassion for the stuff they do. The episodes don't have too much fight time, and the fact that the characters aren't war-driven, psycho maniac nuts ("calm youself Katana...") is good. [/QUOTE] SD Gundam is nothing new but most Gundam watchers in North American fail to see that. The first SD Gundam, Super Deformed Gundam, was made in late 80s to make fun of the characters in various Gundam series. The Superior Defender style SD Gundam was created in early 90s, which are not called Superior Defender yet, to attract a different group of audiences into the franchise. It is just part of the business. According to the CGO, Chief Gundam Officer, from Bandai, there are 3 major groups of Gundam fans and SD fan is one of the 3. When people see the name Gundam, they want "deep" stories, "complicate" characters and sad environment, like in Gundam Wing but SD doesn't provide that. So, people bash it for what it is. I don't remember hearing Gundam fans shorting at the first SD Gundam in late 80s being an insult to MSG, Zeta, ZZ and CCA and I surely don't understand why some fans can accept the fact that it is a kid show for kids. If it is too childish, it means you are not the target audiences. Maybe I should start some bashing on GW and Seed sometime because they are too childish for me!

Exactly. So, Turn A should be the one and only most deadly Gundam!

Don't you think GP03 Dendrobrium is a bit old, consider it is UC 0083. Any late UC MS can easily outrun it. 3 deadly MS: Crossbone 3, V2 and Turn A. Crossbone3 from Crossbone Gundam manga(UC0133) is very solid build with speed and power. V2 from Victory Gundame(UC0153) has the speed no one can match. Its Wing of Light is a pair of mile long beam wing. Turn A from Turn A Gundam(CC2345) has Moonlight Butterfly which can disable all machines in its path. Best team of 3 in any universe: DX, Leopard Destroy, Airmaster Brust from Gundam X. 3 best looking, properly very deadly: Zeta Gundam, Hyaku Shiki, Super Gundam.

You can find most information about Gundam on [url]http://www.gundamofficial.com[/url] [url]http://www.mahq.net[/url]

Any specified question? I am sure some of the members can help.

If you need more reading about spotting bootlegs, here is a good link [url]http://www.digital.anime.org.uk/piratefaq.html[/url] BTW, I don't think communist has a lot to do with getting legitimate, licensed anime in Hong Kong. There are official licensed animes in HK but most of them are dubbed in Chinese. Anime has been very popular in HK for almost 30 years where there is constant demand for fansubs. The shows broadcast on TV are always in Chinese, not the original Japanese. Also, many TV stations hold the rights; if they are not going to release the shows, no one else can. Slowly, there are some legitimate DVD released in the market in R3.

The director of Gundam Wing, Masashi Ikeda, admitted in one interivew that he doesn't really know how to write female characters. Maybe that explain why Relena is badly made.

I would not recommand the 39 episode series GX as well, but not because it is bad. The show is cut short, just like Mobile Suit Gundam which is cut to 43 eps. from 49. However, it doesn't mean the story or the characters are bad. In fact, it is very very good. The major problem of GX lays in the setting which is very closely related to the Universal Century. Unlike G or W, it follows the more "realistic" feel of UC timeline with the story centering in the concept of newtype. To understand the plot of GX, one has to really spend time watching UC Gundams and understand the meaning of UC newtypes first. GX concludes the most pure and original meaning of newtype and it is done very well. The character development is amazing. Within the 39 eps., almost all characters grow. Jamil and Lancelow can finally face their dreams from 15 years ago and Garroad, the main character, has learnt a valuable lesson about being alive. The best development is done on Tifa in my opinion. She starts as a child who closed her heart to protect herself to willingly becomes part of the human race. I highly recommand it only if one has watched all UC Gundams.

You are welcomed. If you have any further question, feel free to ask again.

I recommand starting from the beginning with Mobile Suit Gundam(1979). Then follow by the one year war side stories 08th MS Team and 0080 War in the pocket. This will give you enough knowledge for the One Year War. Universal Century Timeline Mobile Suit Gundam, TV series 08th MS Team, OVA side story 0080 War in the pocket, OVA side story 0083 Stardust Memories, OVA side story Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, TV series Mobile Suit Gundam Double Zeta, TV series Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack, movie These conclude the wars between Earth Federation and Zeon. These are from the UC timeline but not directly related to the above: Mobile Suit Gundam Formula 91, movie Mobile Suit Victory Gundam, TV series All seriesfrom alternative universes are not related to each other or the UC timeline storywise. They can be view individually. Mobile Fighter G Gundam, TV series New Mobile Report Gundam Wing, TV series Endless Waltz, OVA and movie, follows Gundam Wing New Mobile Century Gundam X, TV series Turn A Gundam, TV series (The series is condensed into 2 movies, Moonlight Butterfly and Earth Light) Mobile Suit Gundam Seed, TV series The live action movie G-Savior is listed as an alternative UC timeline. I don't recommand it anyway.

There are 2 groups of fans who don't like Relena. The fangirls who only believe in the pairing of Heero and Duo or Heero with whichever boy don't like Relena. They think Relena is "on their way" for their perfect pairing. This is done intentional by the creator to attract female audiences. There is another group of fans who doesn't like Relena. They are the one care so much about the story and character development. They view Relena as nothing but a "love interest" of the main character and she has no really value in the beginning. Then, in the later part when Relena becomes an important politcal influerence, she grows to even more unbelieveable as her development is too rapid and dramatic. The change in her doesn't fit her personality. One day she is willing to revenge for her father with a gun in her hand; as soon as she knows about her royal bleed, she starts preaching about peace. She seens to throw away everything about herself in the past and starts a new life of as a world leader. She is in school one day but suddenly, she can run a school and teach others about her father's ideal which she has only known for a few days. Is her really that clever to understand the idea of peace within a few days which takes years of her father's teaching? Again, it is intentional from the creator. Relena is very easily to relate to because she is the perfect female many females want to be. She can have power, love, compassion, influences and wearing pink and still be cheered by her followers.

If I remember right, there are Chinese empires in Han who are just a few months old. Many are considered adults when they reach 14 or 15 because their average lifespan is only 45 years old. It is not problem for a 8 years old who wants to rule the world but does every 8 years old has an army to archieve her goal? An 8 years old doesn't know how to organize a real army big enough to be a threat. There must be someone who shares the ambition who would use her as a figurehead and shares his army with her to archieve his goal.

Sorry about it but Gundam Wing did not include the idea of newtype in the original plan because they could not explain what newtypes are. Watch GX and you can see how difficult it is to have newtypes in alternative universe Gundam. The truth is that GW wants to be as far as from the UC because they are attracting different audiences, mainly the females and younger kids. I am not the one saying mecha cannot have deep plot. Please read all messages again. It is the question "Did EVA really defy a new gerne?" My answer is no because everything EVA had done had been done before. If Gundam or all other mechas are about human finding comfort in technologies, tell me what the Five Stars Stories is about and what Macross is about and what Brain Powerd is about? At the end, how technologies can save lives and bring peace in these shows? BTW, does EVA really not about technologies? I don't think putting a human brain in EVA is only for making it cool. There is a meaning there. I don't think I am rude because I have not one time calling names which is not appropiate to the reading of children. When I am using examples from shows you have not even heard about, how can you prove me wrong? Fine, I am wrong and EVA is not a mecha because it has incrediably deep story and the characters are unique. It is definitely the most original and unique story in the history in animation. Unfortunately, I don't think it is true because I have enough reasons and knowledges to back it up. Now, back to the topic. Is EVA the best story ever made? My answer is again, NO because many of the themes, plots and characters have been done before and done better. I am sure if someone doesn't want to believe, they can simply accept that the older works don't exist at all. Does it mean it is not good anymore? Of course not. It has its flaws like any other shows. The main character, Shinji, is not really a likeable character or one that is easy to relate to. It is not real that he is still loved when he doesn't want to help. Our society does not work that way. Do we gather around a loser and clap when he has a little personal improvement? Our people are not so forgiven. The world out there is quite different. When a person is useless, he/she is discard. If Shinji is on Whitebase replacing Amuro, he is dead in a day because the enemies and crew of Whitebase is not so forgiven. Then, when Shinji meets the people, he does not even think about them in their shoes. If he can, he will realize his life is not such a tragic comparing to others. Does he has to face the fact that he is made like Rei? Does he has to see his mother hanging herself like Auska? Does he has to live in guilt for abandoning his father like Misato? Does he has to see his mother bound into a computer because she thinks she can be a better computer than a mother? Shinji can be a happy child because he still has a father looking after him and he is the one refusing to understand his father's intention. He is just a very selfish and self-centered person. He can decide when he wants to fight without looking at the big picture. EVA does a great job in reflecting some of the problems of children nowaday. They are like Shinji who refuses to look at the world in others point-of-view. They enjoy soaking in meaningless pain and waiting for others to help. When there is help, it gives a chance for them to refuse and being sad over and over...... BTW, I am not the one saying labelling EVA a mecha is an insult. Read the post again. In fact, I try really hard to defend it but it doesn't work too well, I guess because some people have already made up their minds. Don't expect that I don't understand the greatness of EVA at all. I know it is about human but don't most mecha shows, especially UC Gundams, are about human? Off-topic In an earlier post, I have said I am a fan of mecha for a long time. If you are under 20, I have been watching mecha, and anime in general, before you were born. I guess I am just old and have been living too long to understand what young people think. I don't think you believe I have watch a lot of Gundams and mechas in general. The truth is that I have been collecting Gundam shows, books, merchandises and models for the last 15 years. Gundam has been very popular worldwide except in North America.

I think my problem is that I have been a mecha fan for years, many many years and I can see too many similarities between EVA and many other mecha shows. Believe me, I have watch more Gundams than those on American TV and they are quite different from Gundam Wing. Gundam Wing is not true when using it to judge Gundam in general. I still don't see how you can judge EVA has more emotion in order to call it non-mecha show because there are a lot of emotion in many mecha shows which you have never heard of. Please tell me how you define "mecha" and what your bases are? I don't see Zeta Gundam with the same power if it is piloted by someone other than Camille Viden, who is as emotional as Shinji in many way, who has also witnessed has parents' death, who is able to see death people and uses their power. Also, what about the other examples I gave? Remember Five Star Stories and Brain Powerd? Those mechas can select their pilots as well. Do you have an answer to those as well? To answer your questions a) Is the discussion still meaningful if we don't agree on the most simple thing? To define a gerne is not that difficult when it clearly shows characterists from the gerne. b)Do you really think EVA defines a gerne where no other shows, especially mecha shows can compare to it? I would suggest you to watch some more mecha shows before making the comment. c)Again, whether it is mecha or not is a fact, not opinion. I am just seriously wondering why someone think labelling a show mecha is a great insult when the show shares a lot of trends as the rest of the gerne? This is the thing I don't understand. Gundam Wing is not a side story but an alternative show which are made for merchandise market. Gundam Wing is about pretty boys fighting to save the world in some cool mechas and it is not the meaning of Gundam at all. Gundam can be used as an example perfectly, but not Gundam Wing. If you have watch Mobile Suit Gundam, the first Gundam made in 1979, you can clear see the problem with Gundam Wing. There are a lot more and better shows than Gundam Wing. I am sure GW fans will not agree. Tell me if Gundam is only about mecha: In UC Gundam, a special type of human is used in the battlefield. They are called the "newtype". The idea of newtype is developed by Zeon Daikun, a leader of spacenoid. His thoery includes human evolution in space to newtype in order to enlight their senses of their surrounding. When becoming newtypes, people have power to understand others easily, so maybe it is a key to peace. In addition, when people moves to space, Earth is allowed to heal from the destruction of mankind. However, newtypes are used as super soldiers but almost all of them end in tragic. This is the main theme of UC Gundam and it is not about building the latest weapons or developing the latest technology. The most important elements lie in the human themselves, not the technologies. I feel kind of sad when people talking about EVA being non-mecha because mechas are about fighting. I don't think it is true as many mecha stories have very deep meaning, like EVA. Mecha has been look down as a gerne and it is the most misunderstood part of animation in North America. There are more than just mecha and technologies, there are a lot of human in those stories. If you are talking about EVA creating a gerne, then the gerne is created by Yoshiyuki Tomino who puts human into robot stories. If you don't believe me, you can find a show named Space Runaway Ideon by Tomino which possibly serve as the base of EVA. The reason I have Tomino in the discussion is because the way he revolutionized mecha anime into something fit into the gerne created by EVA if there is a gerne at all. He put deep looks of human mind in his Gundam series. He put religion elements in mecha with his Space Runaway Ideon and he started using biological mechas in Aura Battler Dunbine. These are all characterists shared by EVA.

The problem is I use the examples in Aura Battler Dunbine, the Five Star Stories and Brain Powerd but what kind of reply do I get? Do you honest have heard of the shows? Let's see the 3 examples of Gundams you are pointing out. 08th MS Team, Stardust Memories are side-stories and Gundam Wing is an alternative story. How much of UC Gundam can you get from those? Do you understand the real meaning of "newtype" by watch these three? BTW, what is the most original theme of Gundam? It is not about peace but human evolve into the next level in space as newtype. When they are newtypes, it is a better chance that they can understand each other in order to build a better world. That is the meaning of most UC Gundams and Mobile Suit Gundam to be the most obvious. It is not about making better mobile suits to kill off the enemies, but change human in order to make the world subtable for most human, not all. I think EVA is sharing this kind of meaning in the story. I think you have to learn about the meaning in Gundam stories before making the assumption that side stories and alternative represent the true meaning of Gundam. I highly recommand you to watch Mobile Suit Gundam(1979), Zeta Gundam(1985) and Victory Gundam(1993) before drawing the conclusion about Gundam. I honest don't think you understand why I choose MSG as an example because you have not watch it at all. The "handful of people" you are pointing about are the fans who have follow the idea of giant robots in anime since Iron Man 28 made in 1963. I am happy to use Aura Battler Dunbine, Five Star stories and Brain Powerd as examples to explain why EVA is mecha but, unfortunately, that no one seens to care about them because they are not on American TV. I have 3 perfect examples and I have also mention shows like Patlabor and Magic Knight Rayearth. You really have to watch these shows in order to understand why I think EVA is mecha. I start to believe that EVA is not mecha in the US only because most American fans don't know anything about mecha in general. As a summary, I think EVA is mecha because it is made as a mecha show. Biological mechas are made before and after EVA and they are seen as mechas in general. Mecha stories are not necessary all about mechas. There are some of the best human drama in mecha shows. Therefore, it is fine if EVA has deep human drama and it can still be a mecha show. Examples like Aura Battler, Five Star Stories and Brain Powerd prove mechas can be biological. Also, Mobile Suit Gundam and most UC Gundam, all mecha shows by Tomino in general, Macross and Patlabor are human drama as well. They are treat as mecha but their values lay in the impact of human minds. Those should be treat no different from EVA which follows the exact same trend. Fans nowaday seems to think mecha shows are no better than robots fighting each other. They have miss some of the best stories in the history of animation. Again, calling a show mecha when it has mechas in it is not an insult. I think I am wasting time here as most people who read the post don't even know who Yoshiyuki Tomino is and how he revolutionize mecha in general. How about watch some show from him and we can discuss if EVA is mecha? AzureWolf, I am not ignoring any post from you but I have already share my reasons to answer your post in an earlier post. Read again and you can find my position on the topic.

Sounds like you have never watch Mobile Suit Gundam. If you did, you would know the story is centered around Amuro, not his RX-78, just like Shinji. When I was watching Aura Battler Dunbine last night, it was fun to see the parts of the mecha come from giant bugs. Now, maybe I have to adjust to the fact that it is not mecha at all because someone said living creatures cannot be mechas! Let's remove Brain Powerd from mecha or Five Stars Stories so fans are not confused by biological mechas. Also, a living creature with FREE WILL can be piloted by human as well because the souls only want to take their sons or daughters for a walk. The kids are not "piloting" the EVAs and that is not a cockpit. Maybe I can share something from Brain Powerd which is a "reply" to EVA as Tomino himself put it. Brains, and all Anti-bodies, have their own mind and feeling. They are afraid of battles and they refuse to be pilot by someone who endanger them. However, the main character Yuu later realizes the meaning of pilot. The pilot is the one who guide the mechas to the direction of the pilot. If EVAs do not need the same guide, why do they have to risk human lives in the battlefield. How about allowing EVAs to fight angels off on their owns without pilots? The pilots are there to control them, so they are mechas. It is fine if you don't want to call EVA a mecha show but I don't think you should call Gundam, Macross and Brain Powerd mecha shows as well because they are not about the mechas. So, in your standard, they are not mechas. You will realize it if you have watch them all. I don't think these posts have any value at all because I am telling reasons and examples where no have seen or even heard of. Mechas or not, it is not an opinion, but fact. If you don't think EVA is mecha, it is because you do not know the gerne well enough. Anno himself is a fan of mechas and I don't think he sees mecha as an insult. Watch some more mecha shows will definitely help because you will see how overgeneralize is your assumption. BTW, in a poll a few years ago, EVA was voted one of the most tragic mecha shows in Japan. Looks like people in Japan agreed EVA is mecha.

What is a theme Gundam has to do if EVA is mecha? BTW, I think 0083 Stardust Memories is a very bad example of Gundam show. Let me tell you how EVA is depending on the technology, like Macross. If the technology is not advance enough in Gundam, there is no need of mechas from BOTH sides as they shared the same technologies because they are all human. However, like Macross, EVA is fighting something/someone more advanced in technologies, the only way they can bring balance in the fights are using enemies technologies. That is why the EVA units are essential. I don't think our little guns and missiles can hurt the angels. Without the EVA units, can we still have the story? No, human will be too easy to kill and there is no story about a boy if he wants to fight. He will not experience the fear of being attack by some unknown. Before all the emotion and deeper looking in human mind, the angels can kill everyone already. Allow me to introduce you to a better Gundam show than Stardust Memories, Mobile Suit Gundam. First, the characters do not revolve around the Gundam. The story is about people suviving in war and the MS are just tools. Indeed, MS are first developed to use in construction in outer space. They are used as war machines only because Zeon doesn't have enough tanks and fighters. If we remove the MS from the story, the human drama still exists. Isn't EVA the same? How about Zeta Gundam, ZZ Gundam, Victory Gundam, Turn A Gundam and Gundam X? Stardust Memories is really not the best example you should give because the characters do not live up to the Gundam standard. If EVA and Gundam have the exact same kind of human drama, why is EVA not mecha and Gundam is mecha? I never disagree that EVA is a human drama. However, it is still a robot show and robot show can have human drama as well. If EVA is not a robot show, I don't think Macross is one. Not just Macross, most UC Gundam are not mecha. PS: Kou Uraki is not challenging Shinji in anything as he is made before Shinji. How about saying Shinji challenges Kou Uraki and he wins? Also, it is possible that Shinji is based on Amuro of Mobile Suit Gundam as MSG is one of Anno's favorite show, along with Space Cruiser Yamato and Space Runaway Ideon. Please, if anyone think calling a show a mecha is an insult, he/she should watch more anime before making the statement as it proves that person does not know a lot about anime. Watch Macross and tell me if it is mecha like you expect from a mecha show. Since Anno, the director of EVA, himself is a mecha fan and worked in a Gundam before, I don't think he sees mecha as an insult.

It is really sad to see fans don't enjoy the great stories and characters anymore without useless flashy mechas and pretty characters. When looks become more important than substance, can we still expect any show with good content? A recent interview of Fukuda, the director of Gundam Seed, states his works have to be successful in the merchadise market. It is all business. They don't care what message they send, as long as the toys are selling. Please explain to me how Gundam Wing has a better story than Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam or Victory Gundam? If Gundam Wing is so great, why are many former GW fans become fans of Gundam Seed now? Because of merchadise. Whenever a newer show is released, this group of fans become the fans of the latest show for the newer toys, prettier characters and better looking animation. They don't care about the story or the depth of animation because they are not reading into the story. GW is a good story if the watchers don't want to understand the meaning. Unfortunately, it is what most people do nowaday. Does GW really have any deep meaning? Look and see. BTW, is the newtype power of Amuro makes him less believeable? If it is, Heero is even less believeable as he can suvive a big fall and fixes his own leg. So, it must be their looks. Amuro is an average looking character; on contrast, Heero looks more femine and cute. It doesn't matter how much character Amuro is going to offer, he cannot beat Heero on the look alone. There are still people who love the older, better shows. They are not the kids who will proclaim Camille is the cutest or Judau rocks. They are they one who understand Gundam is a lot more than the cute looking characters and the beatifully drawn mechas.

I didn't mis-read you. You are the one saying religion brings quality into EVA. I am wondering how much will change if there is no religion reference. As for EVA mecha or not, it is a fact, not opinion. See, you understanding there is a cockpit for controlling, so it is a mecha, right? Didn't you say EVA is not mecha because they do not follow order wordlessly? Then, why do they need a cockpit and a pilot? BTW, what is so bad being a mecha. Does it mean if it is mecha, it cannot be serious? Maybe EVA is like Pokemon where you don't need a pilot to control it. Please don't look down on a gerne you don't really understand. Next time when you run into any Aura Battler Dunbine fans or Five Star Stories fans, please tell them those are not mecha because EVA is not mecha. I agree it is impossible for anyone to full understand EVA. Properly not everyone working in EVA understand everything as well because some of the stuffs do not make any sense at all. However, don't you think we need a a certain degree of understand to like a show? How can someone claim a show to be the best when he/she doesn't even understand anything in it? So, everyone can develop their own theories on the meaning of EVA, but there are something everyone agree on. Looks like you mis-read my message. I have never say you are the one saying EVA is the best ever. It is what this thread is about and I am not the one start it.

It is Victory Gundam made in 1993 by Yoshiyuki Tomino. [QUOTE] Anyways, if Shinji's personality is not original, the way Anno depicted it and actually showed it is. And you're right, Evangelion is about peoples' relationships [I don't think I said it was about religion]. As I said earlier, in the end, the angels and Evas are sort of like a side-dish that comes with Evangelion. Evangelion is possibly the first anime that uses a lot of time just showing Shinji talk by himself and also using time in the last two episodes to show the inner-minds of all the main characters in Evangelion. So, the angels and Evas are not the main focus at all. [/QUOTE] The religion substance doesn't enlighted EVA. Religion is nothing more than just a device to get people into watch it. It doesn't enrich the story a bit. Take away all the religion stuffs and you still get a great human drama. So, the religion reference does not make the show with better quality. Believe me, there are a lot of other animes which will spend a lot of time on the main characters but most of them still remember they have a story to tell. [QUOTE] How can so many people say Evangelion is not original when it's practically bursting with a new plot, new viewpoint, new ways of showing the storyline, new mechanical designs, much reference to different religions, and characters' personal depictions? Why do you think Evangelion is regarded as a famous anime? There's a reason, and I feel that people are singling out Evangelion to destroy everything that's in it just because it's dub is 'Possibly the greatest anime of all time.' I believe fans would believe this quote, because the word 'possibly' does not mean the word 'is'. [/QUOTE] Originality is not a big issue in anime world but it is quite funny to see some fans use it as a defence. Religion in mecha is not something new. Religion in anime is even older. Who are these people? It is a view shared by many "fans" but how much do they know about anime in general? Anime is a very new media in English speaking world and most local fans do even know who Osamu Tezuka and Leiji Matsumoto are. If these are the people who tell you EVA is the best, can you honestly believe them? I have never say EVA is not possible to be the best, but being the best as a fact, not opinon, so important? Some people may enjoy EVA being single out and destroy but not everyone dislike for its popularity. It has weakness... [QUOTE] Yeah, the depth of Evangelion could be surpassed by Akira and the emotional standpoint could be beaten by a landslide by Ghost of the Fireflies, but there has to be some reason of why Evangelion pictures are always to be on a general anime site and labeled as a famous TV series. [/QUOTE] The reason is because most of these fans in general anime sites do not know a lot about anime. EVA is well-designed and well-made as I have stated before. The female characters are easily likeable for the fanboys. It has relatively new animation and flashy mechas for people to get into. Then, it starts its deeper meaning. Now, tell me how many people you have met in different messageboard who love EVA but don't even understand it? Its hype gets a lot of "fans" who are bad for the fandom. BTW, the movie is called "Grave of the Fireflies", not "Ghost of the Fireflies". [QUOTE] And I disagree that Evangelion is a mecha show. Mech shows=Mechanical shows, and do not even begin to tell me that Eva-units are machines. Macross, Gundam Wing, etc. What's in those shows? Mechanical robots that wordlessly follow the orders of the pilot. Compare a mobile suit gundam to Eva-o1 and try to tell me whether Evangelion can be considered a mecha show? [/QUOTE] Obviously, you have not watch many mecha shows. Mech means mechnical before 1983. Unfortunately, a man named Yoshiyuki Tomino, him again, made Aura Battler Dunbine in 1983. The battlers are bug-like robot powered by "aura" which is the spirit of the pilot. It doesn't need any electricity. Then, 3 years later, in 1986, the epic manga The Five Star Stories by Mamuro Nagano was born. The robots, known as the Mortar Headds, are biological. They have feelings and they can think even they are piloted by people. In one scene, one Mortar Headd throws his sword to another Mortar Headd on its own will without the knowledge of the pilot(headliner) or the fatima(co-pilot). We have seen the MHs feel fear more than once. Now, are Aura Battler and Five Star stories mechas? It is how they are defined generally. In 1997, Tomino made Brain Powerd. The Anti-bodies (robot) are biological as well. They are born, instead of made. They can even choose their pilots and the pilots refer them as "boy". They are alive and they are have mechnical part inside them, just like EVA. Many non-mecha fans think mecha must be mechnical but it is not always true.

EVA is about the relationship of the people, not any of the religions. A person knows all about the angels doesn't make them understand the story. The religion stuffs are to attract people into the show and they don't have any value at all because they are not part of the theme of the story. The story is and only is about human relationship. It requires a lot of thinking to understand that the angels are not important, the end of the world is not important, the secret organization is not important. The only important part is to see how people interact with each other. We don't really have to know any of the reference. Try to watch EVA with this in mind. I am sure you can understand the story better. Anyone can't overlook the religious reference doesn't understand EVA at all. Many true fans don't like the commet 'Possibly the greatest anime of all time' because they know the commet is not a fact, but an opinion. I can enusure you that there are more than 5 animes or manga with characters of more depth. Works from Osamu Tezuka(Astroboy, Kimba the white lion, Blackjack), Leiji Matsumoto(Galaxy Express 999) , Hayao Miyazaki(Heidi, Girl of the Alps) and Yoshiyuki Tomino(Mobile Suit Gundam, Space Runaway Ideon) have wonderful characters and I highly recommand them to anime fans, old or new. Now, back to Shinji. How can someone like him when he doesn't even like himself? Shinji is not the first abandoned kid in animation history and his life is not the saddest. He can have so much to live for but he chooses to annoy them. His personality and action don't justify the kind of care he receives. This make the story unreal. For the originality, let me share part of another show and tell me EVA is truly original. The show is made a few years before EVA. The story is about a 13 years old boy. He is abandon by his parents on Earth when his parents leave for space to join the war. During one of the the enemy attack near his home, he runs into a mecha and pilots it to protect his home. Later, when he joins a group to fight, an older female member takes care of him. The female member's fiance, later husband, is also a member of the group. Their enemy is a religious group who believe in miracles. Sometime later, the boy discovers the mecha he pilots is partially made by his mother and his father is the leader of his group. He is disappointed by his treatment from his father but he soon realizes the father's intention. Sounds like EVA? The problem is not the originality, but how well made the story is. EVA is well-designed and well-made. It takes elements from older stories and make a new story with a different look and feel. The idea of an abandon child fighting in robot is not original, but the feel determines it. It is just not possible from EVA's point of view to see other as unoriginal when its plot is not. Just a side note: Why isn't EVA a mecha show? If the story is not focus on mecha, then, most of Yoshiyuki Tomino's works are not mecha. Take Mobile Suit Gundam as an example. If mecha is the focus of the story, why is MSG still the most popular Gundam today worldwide? When mecha is the focus, people will simply look for newer, flashy, and better looking mecha. I am sure the mechas from MSG, which is 25 years old next year, look old. So, what is keeping the fans here? The characters. When people hear about mecha show, they think it is about robot fighting each other. That is not true most of the time. Many mecha shows have great characters, plots and theme. Also, do you consider Patlabor, Macross and Magic Knight Rayearth mecha show?