Winter

[QUOTE=Godelsensei][COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New] As far as I am concearned, religion is an irrelevant issue. What matters is a person's moral standards, and their acceptance of differences. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] What about the people whose base of morality is stemmed from their religion? Those people do exist, so knowing that would go without saying that whether you believe it is or not, religion is far from an irrelevant issue. A lot of times, its what societies are structured from.

[QUOTE=Transtic Nerve] I'm not even going to bother to respond to CS, my point was made, he just doesn't see it yet. What I said in Myotaku was practically agreed with by EVERYONE who responded to my post. Not one person who responded to my post said that I was wrong. Now if everyone agreed with me, that makes me think that I am right in my assumptions. [/QUOTE] Then you are deluding yourself. Just because everyone agrees with what was said, doesnt make what was said actual, factual truth. If you said the world was flat, and everyone agreed, that doesnt mean it is true. Popular opinion doesnt always equal absolute truth.

The fact of the matter is, we arent a threat to our earth. We cannot kill the planet. If we pose as bad enough a threat to the planet, we'll die long before we kill her. Our planet isnt going to die; we'll go first. *smokes cig, and throws smoke carton out on the grass*

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Cool. Thanks for the replies, Winter. The only thing I have left to add is that to me it seems it's possible to get to where you want to go but without taking the Satanism road. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that because Satan is evil and what not (especially since you don't hold that belief yourself), but I think that it makes it seem that the path you chose is almost just to spite Christians. The reason I'm saying this is pretty much all of the ideals you hold dear are ones we share (the privileging of knowledge and self-enlightenment, etc.). But I didn't follow nor did I need Satanism to reach where I stand. And I don' t know how much YOU truly need it either. You seem to privilege reason and self-reliance, but do it by studying an idea born of fear, ignorance, and unreason. Perhaps you simply don't want to give yourself enough credit. Maybe it's to build self-confidence, like a student who knows more than the teacher but takes the class nevertheless. It's a fine line you walk, my friend, and you just have to be careful not to step onto the wrong side, because that's when logic no longer holds all the cards.[/quote] Insightful. You've gained my respect. I will note what you've said regarding my beliefs, but unfortunately either you dont understand the deepness of my spirituality, or I havent explained enough. Regardless, I appreciate what you've said. I will say, I was inspired into diving into the Satanic path partially because of my music. I'm a huge fan of Children of Bodom, Dimmu Borgir, Immortal, Gorgoroth, and such bands, and when I was younger I noticed they all seemed to promote Satan. I decided to see what all the fuss was about, and found myself agreeing with a lot of what I discovered. I'm sure that those bands had [I]something[/I] to do with the darkness I've brought into my life, lol.

[QUOTE=Heaven's Cloud][color=indigo]Good, I am glad people's opinions mean nothing to you. That means that I won't be hurting your feelings when I tell you that your post disgusted me as well. [/color][/QUOTE] I said 'you' referring to Boba Fett. I didnt say people. You're powers of assumption however, are quite profound.

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]Heh. Well I guess that works. But I had follow-up questions to that, and you've still to answer those. Another question: if your point of view shared by most "satanists"? What's the doctrine of the majority? I'm just intrigued.[/QUOTE] Follow up questions? Meh, sorry, I get into a rant and just go off. Actually, most Satanists *sans the quotations, dont know why you included those* do not follow the ideals of it that I do. The majority of Satanists tend to be children looking to rebel against their parents, or watch too much Buffy and look to Satan for black magick or whatever. Then there are the people who will literally bow down and worship the dark lord. Then there are the people who strictly follow the codes of the black bibles, and act out the black mass. However, thankfully there are enough Satanists who can look beyond any bourgeious trinkets of the philosophy, and stick to what made the movement in the first place. Now to answer some of your other questions, I'm unusually happy to oblige. You asked why do I stick to some 'psuedo-religious' yadda yadda. Well I do believe I answered that one. The doctrines so easily mirror the types I was developing myself during my budding years as a Satanist, that I felt it right to adopt what was taught as my own. As for my own values; I do have them. Thats why I dont believe Satan is a real deity worthy of worship, and why I do not believe in the black arts that are taught by so many other Satanic sects. Its also why I dont consider sacrifice a viable aspect of the philosophy. I also think I answered you question, however covertly, regarding Satan guiding me. Satan doesnt guide me as the Christ guides his flock. I'll say this one more time, I do not believe Satan is real. The [I]ideal[/I] of an angel of G*d being defiant and strong enough in the self to willingly rebel against the ultimate, is the ideal that I hold closest most. In that, I use my own innate wisdom, experience, and intelligence to guide me and get me through each day. Satanism has more or less, coaxed me into realizing that. It has helped me strive to reach the 'Christhood' within myself. In short, I am my own guide to that metaphorical building of enlightenment. Satanism is the car I'm using to get there.

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]That disgusts me. To even contemplate dropping a friend when she?s going through one of the more difficult times in her life, so you don?t get ?pulled on a roller coaster ride?, sickens me. You sound like a real loyal friend, Winter. [/color][/QUOTE] Be as disgusted as you want, you, like your opinion, mean nothing to me. I stated what I stated as 'possible realities'. Let me explain to your little brain what that means. It means the girl can choose any path she wants. I merely pointed out what the most evident paths are. Its up to her to pick them. You are a fool if you deny even the darkest of paths.

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]I don't know if you've answered this already Winter, but being satanist does that mean that you also believe in the Christian god? I'm asking because you attribute a lot of biblical (or otherwise) details to satan, but they come with some extra baggage, if you ask me. If you don't believe in "God," as you do not believe in "Satan," then my question is "why bother?" Why even consider yourself part of some pseudo-religious organization when all you really need is your personal value code to get you through the day? (It would seem I can ask a Christian the same question, and the answer I think I'd get is that Christ is the teacher of the values, and therefore without him the sense of the values would be lost, or something along those lines.) Is that how you feel as well? That "satan" guides you? Because isn't the whole point that you guide yourself? (I don't mean to sound like I'm making assumptions. If you answer one question many others might not be legitimate anymore)[/QUOTE] Its a very valid question, and I dont mind you asking. Now, I dont believe in G*d as real, nor do I believe in Satan. Its a philosophy with concepts that I hold true. To understand my acceptance of the dark lord, you must understand what drove me away from Christianity. Mostly, my disdain for it stems from Jehovahs Witnesses. It is preached that their G*d is ultimate, mighty, powerful, unrelenting, vengeful, oppressive, insecure, and intolerent being. A jealous G*d, and to me, an unforgiving G*d. For me, Satanism is the exact polarity of that. The exact defiance of this oppression. I identify with Satan, because for me, it symbolizes enlightenment inspite of tyranny. I dont like how its preached that intellectuals will be shunned, that gaining awakening and enlightenment through means other than the supreme and Jesus Christ is the only way for salvation. Its narrow, and naturally I seek to defy that; Satan is the perfect outlet for that goal. And again, no I dont belive in Satan as a tangible object. Its a symbolic reference to defiance of oppression in all its forms. And that doesnt restrict itself just to the ignorance that is preached to be 'the way' in Christian faiths. It goes in to all aspects of life. So in answer to your question, no I do not believe in the supreme beings or dark beings as literal aspects of metaphysical worlds. I identify with them in the extent of philosophical concepts. Also, I have a hatred, flat out hatred, for Jesus Christ because of what it is also preached in most denominations of Christianity. Timothy McVeigh is the prime example of why I hate it. He was a terrible man, who killed innocents as a statement. He was brought to justice, but in his last moments on earth he said something. He said he had found Jesus Christ. That is why he was confident he wouldnt suffer eternal damnation. And thats all it takes in most denominations. A faith, and acceptance of the son of man, in order to gain everlasting love, life, and happiness. Thats all it takes. You dont have to be a good person. You dont have to show love. You dont have to be kind. All you have to do is accept Jesus. I see that as terribly...well, wrong. Mind you, Jesus did preach kindness, but if you understand the "truth" of it, all you have to really do is merely accept it. You dont have to be nice, kind, loving, good person. Just accept it, and run amok in this life without consequence. I strongly disagree with that idea, and thats another piece of coal in the fires of my anti-christian furnace.

Short answer; there is little you can do. Long answer; do you think its worth it? If this friend is, then its time for you to step up and be a friend. Consul, coax, and comfort. With care, compassion, and love, your friend will find their own path to freedom. Generally, all they need is warmth to stay in the game, and keep working toward that path. But aside from that, there is little to nothing you can do. *Unless you want to get involved with authorities* Cut your losses, and detatch yourself from this friendship, unless you are ready to be pulled on a rollercoaster ride. Easiest, and some would say worst answer: realize you can do nothing, and sit back and let her die. Which will be your reality?

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]In regards to the above post, being "satanist" does not imply that you "worship" satan, similar to people saying they're "christian" doesn't mean the "worship" jesus christ. It's not quite the same thing because apparently you can be "satanist" and see satan as only some sort of ideal (or whatever) and not an [i]actual[/i'] entity. More than anything, it just means that through some abstract idea (in this case the biblical satan) someone found a particular code of values to stick by. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, although I'd question the depth of the "devotion to satan," if there is any at all, because of course the devil is credited with a bit more mischief than just "rebelling against the social construct."[/quote] Nice answer. Now here is the real answer. I go by the LeVey system of Satanism. Specifically, the 1st Church of Satan. Within the organization there are various types of believers. There are those who practice dark arts, and literally hold Satan as their deity, and leader, there are those who identify with the lore, and then there are those who utilize the concepts of the lore within their everyday lives. I believe in no supreme beings, and the concept of Satan is what I identify with. Question my devotion all you like, I am completely devoted to the concept. Just as any Christian is devoted to the concept of their supreme being. As for my Luciferian ideals, I identify with the lore of the angel of light. In that, this angel not only rivals the might and light of the supreme being itself, but in that, the supreme being of the bible actually grows insecure, and fearful of his own creation. To me, that symbolizes the idea that no being is without rival, no creature without challenger, no entity, fiction or not, without equal. Considering that, its an empowering idea. An idea I like to believe in. [I]Hail Satan[/I]

[QUOTE=Godelsensei][COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New] Why should the church stay out of the school system? One could argue that religious schools bring children of the same faith together. And that is what is wrong with them--they're bringing children of different faiths apart. This point may seem irrelevant, but think about it: if you're constantly surrounded by people who follow your beliefs, what will you learn to think? That they, and they alone, are the right way to see things? In one school system, where there are no devisions (aside from inevitable ones brought upon by the students themselves) based on religion, race or social status, we learn to at least accept the views of others. I don't mean we outwardly tollerate them, but understand, inwardly, that they hold value, as well. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] I just want to point out, that I personally went to Catholic school for 7 years, and being surrounded by people who believed the same thing without question, naturally prompted me to wonder if they were wrong. I actually was expelled from that school in 1st grade for questioning my teachers; only got back in after a few bribes from my papa.

[QUOTE=Megumi]I'm sorry, I misunderstood that part. Near every religion and every people have history of bloodshed behind them. You can't hold all Christians accountable for the evil some people did in the name of Christ. You must remember that Christ taught us NOT to kill. They acted against their own beliefs. The Jewish people have just as bloody a history, only it was a longer time ago. By your reasoning, since you're saying Christians don't deserve as much respect because past Christians did some bad stuff, I guess there's no need to respect Germans. And hey, look at all the bad some Muslim people are doing right now. Guess they're free game too. Why do people keep bringing these things up? Christians have killed in the name of Christ. Muslims have killed in the name of Allah. Jews have killed in the name of Elohim. Does that mean any of them are right? Are any of them particularly worse than the others? Murder is murder, and against every one of those religions. The world is full of hypocrites, yes, but should true followers have to suffer because of them?[/QUOTE] You like making assumptions. First, I am against most faiths. Why did I target Christianity? Because [B]the title of the thread referred to it.[/B] If it makes you feel better to know, *and since you are so eager to make assumptions, I'll flat out tell you my beliefs* I am against most faiths. I understand other faiths have killed in the name of their beliefs; I didnt say they didnt now did I? I am against Jewish faith, Christian faith, Muslim faith, Hindu faith, Paganistic faiths. Why? Because they personify beliefs that hold little truthful evidence, or tangible realities. Why should I believe in an all powerful being dictating my life? Why should I believe that a man was born to preach this word? Consider the evidence that we can say safely many who wrote the bible and heard the word of a supreme being may have easily been psychotic, and had delusions and episodes. Consider in the Pagan faiths that most deities were created for either A)Entertaining stories, or B) explaining natural occurences in the world that science now has answers to. Consider in Christianity, specifically, that the English monarchy originated because a man believed he was ordained by G*d to rule the country. Due to ignorance, this was believed. Due to ignorance, it was believed that demons working with Satan caused illness. Due to ignorance, people feared other cultures and beliefs, and sought to destroy them. Why do I hate the Christian G*d? Think about this. He loves humans more than anything. Before humans, it was Angels he loved the most. Angels became second to humans. G*d pushed them down for favor of humans. Whats to say that G*d wont grow tired of us, and create a new blessed being? If the bibles were still being written, I'm sure someone with delusions of granduer would create that story. What would happen to humans? G*d would push us down to the second best spot, Angels being third, and the new beings number one. G*d is very tempermental, and insecure. Its actually stated that he is a jealous G*d. For a supreme being, you'd think he'd be able to transend such darker emotions that humans share, wouldnt you? I will not surrender myself to an idea thought up by humanity, to make it easier for monarchy structures to oppress, control, and enslave their citizens in a world of ignorance, dominance, and tyranny. I will also not surrender my faith in a being that may easily cast me aside for his latest, newer being he may create. But of course, thats just me. ;)

[QUOTE=Boo][color=gray][size=1] And to Winter. That what you say, ofcourse, is your point of view. Satan was not free to roam the earth or anything. If he was, why would (ex.) Jesus do the trouble to save a man who was outcasted because he was controlled by demons, at all? He wouldnt have let them roam the earth if he after that, does all the trouble to save humanity from satan after that would he? He confronted god near heaven when Jesus went away from the Earth. And the part of what Satan looks like depends on the person. People just say he's carrying a pitchfork and looks ugly to show how evil he is. You might think hes not, a lot of people think he is. And by the way. You arent a messiah when you rebel against a great force. Its the same mistake that people make when they are praising Che (the cuba rebel). Just because he is a rebel doesnt make him a good person. He had slaughtered many of people, but still hes a freedom fighter *cough*. In short, its a matter of opinion ^_^;; [/color][/size][/QUOTE] Of course its a matter of opinion. What else could it be? Is it possible for me to provide 'facts'? Of course not. I dont see Satan as a 'good person', but a symbol of defiance. Defiance against the ultimate oppressor, G*d. Thats how I see it, and I identify with it. Although, I can, and evidently I will have to quote some things to let you know that it is identified by Christianity of many denominations that Satan roams the earth tempting people. And to me, Satan [I]is[/I] a messiah. Because to me, he has 'saved' me from the constraints of Christianity. The doctrines, specifically within the texts of Jehovahs Witnesses, dictates that my pursuit of knowledge is to be shunned, that to have faith in G*d and denounce the pursuit of personal achievement intellectually is wrong. The pursuit of what ever possible truth that can exist is considered blasphemous; unless its ordained within the specific churches, or alleged word of the 'supreme being'. The cloak of ignorance is Christianity's greatest weapon, and I refuse to be confined by it. Now mind you, I dont worship Satan. I dont even believe Satan is real. But the concept is symbolic for me. But I find it terribly troubling that certain faiths can preach ignorance to other possibilities as the key to everlasting life, salvation, and eternal happiness. How can someone, especially a concept of mankinds imagination, tell others that the path they are using to personal enlightenment is wrong? Its not fair, and to me, Satan symbolizes rebelling against that. Its foolish, the corellation you made that other freedom fighters are in the same boat as Satan. You didnt even understand my view completely, before you jumped to that unfair assumption. But no offense taken.

The title of the thread captured me, but I felt it lacked the themes I was looking for. There is a reason why its easier to jump on Christians than it is Jews. I think it has something to do with the era of the Crusades and the hundreds of years of occupation by force, murder, violence, and destruction from Christian crusaders. The inquisition ring a bell? And thats just a piece of the cake. You know, being St. Patrick day, its a little known document that St. Patrick was another patron of Christian oppression, slaughtering Druids in G*d's name. Yet we still manage to keep a day commemorating his 'valor'. Sure, Jews had there moment of tyranny, but collectively, Christian tyranny was far more destructive, merely because of the slaughter coupled with the amount of time in which it existed freely. It was only recently that the tyranny has been nubbed out, and its evident that the mindset of oppression still exists within the media, society, and specifically Mr. Bush. A prime example. Personally I hate Christ a lot more than I hate G*d, which is why I'd be more apt to being anti-Christian than anti-Jew.

[QUOTE=Semjaza Azazel]Why in the world are you typing god as G*d? That's one of the weirdest things I've ever seen, regardless of your beliefs lol [/QUOTE] Weird, not weird, does it really matter? You understand what I'm talking about, anyway.

Wow, this is one helluva thread. Here is something I thought that was interesting. Do you guys know where the idea of hell originated? First, lets bypass the obvious underworld domain that was ruled by the Goddess Hel of ancient lore, but move on to the Hebrew context. In ancient times, 'hel' was the word used to describe the city dump. It was a terribly disgusting place in where rotting animals, and other rubbish were discarded. The landfills would gather so much rubbish, that the city had to burn it. Sometimes it would burn for days on end. It was quite a site to see. Darkened skies, the area became hot as all...hell, and the smell would be so toxic it would burn the eyes of the cityfolk. Eventually, it was thought that when people were bad, they would be cast into these hels. And after years and years, eventually the concept of hell being fire, brimstone, and torture came about, from this place. Funny thing is, Satan doesnt reside in hell. There is garbled text within the most recent of bibles that states that he was condemned to suffer in it, which isnt entirely true. He was condemned to confinement for 1000 years, but after that, was free to roam the heavens and the earth. Which is why in certain books within the most current bible, he is known to confront the angels and g*d quite often. And the misconceptions on the dark lord are so unjustified. Many believe the concept of Satan being ugly, corrupted by evil, and carrying a pitchfork and ruling in hell, when in the mythical reality *oxymoron, I know* he is the most beautiful of all the angels, and was not corrupted by evil. He is merely rebellious, and refused to bow down to the child of man, Jesus Christ. After all, why should a blessed angel bow down to a mere 2000 year old child? If anything, Satan is the real messaiah for humanity. He rebelled against the most oppressive force in the universe, the Christian G*d. He defied, and refused to leach onto an outside source for salvation. He discovered the concept that g*dlyness resides in the individual, and neednt be worshipped by an oppressive overlord. Of course, you should know that I'm a devote Satanist, and Luciferian, so maybe I'm a little biased. And another misconception; Satan is NOT Lucifer. Lucifer is the angel of light, and Satan is the most beautiful angel. The problem with G*d and Lucifer, is G*d was foolish, and made Lucifer as powerful as himself. Because of this power of light possessed by Lucifer, G*d banished him, to make sure he didnt question G*d's authority. Lucifer had no intention of taking G*d's throne; it is worthless to him. However, the funny thing is, in ancient texts, its still known that Lucifer retained much of his power over Gabriel, Micheal, and the other arch angels. If Lucifer wanted to, he very well could gather the defiant angels and destroy G*d in his heaven. That would be a loverly sight...