densuke

The best thing about this title is that it puts its horror and romance on a more or less equal footing. It reminds me of loopy old Victorian stuff like [i]She[/i], which is probably not an accident. Yakumo and Pai (played by Hayashibara Megumi) are fabulous characters. When the story narrows down to just the two of them there's still plenty to see. Sanjiyan is amazing as well... Just for the record, 3x3 Eyes is 2 separate OAV series. They try to tell way too much story (the manga is insanely long and the OAVs kind of jump around) but the basics of the plot are not hard to grasp.

[QUOTE=gundampali23]There are two series? Can you explain th laughing man to me. I dont mind spoilers.[/QUOTE]a) Yes, GITS SAC is comprised of two 26 episode seasons for a total of 52 episodes. b) Not very well. It's something to do with cybernetics, nanotech, industrial espionage, high-level governmental corruption and a vendetta. Sorry. If you really want to see the series I recommend you stay away from any spoilers, as the mood of the show depends a lot on the characters not knowing what's going on...

[QUOTE=PAche]i'd say...azumanga daioh and mai hime both shows have got an original storyline. as you watch the entire show, you watch as they grow up(or remain the same) and mature yet keep the child in them. as the show ends, you feel sad that you can't follow them longer and for azumanga daioh, although the drawing sucks, you feel depressed that they actually have to face the real world and stop living in their dreamworld where they have been till graduating from school[/QUOTE]Azumanga Daioh strikes a lot of people as a bunch of random scenes which simply share the same characters and follow a linear timeline... but there is a very nice story in there about Sakaki and Chiyo and how and why they become friends. My favorite story is R.O.D The TV because it gives out with straightforward action in the style of American comic books (Kiddy Grade is similar). I get kind of cranky when I have to sit through the umpteenth mystical leveling-up scene in the average action series. R.O.D doesn't have that stuff.

[quote name='gundampali23']Does the :Stand Alone Complex mean there are other series.[/quote]The term "stand alone complex" refers to some sort of dysfunction which affects some of the cybernetic humans in the series. I can't be more specific than that because either I don't remember or it was never described clearly. It's also an odd sort of pun referring to the fact that not every episode in the series advances the main plot points - thus there are "standalone episodes" which do just that as well as "complex" episodes which tell the Laughing Man story in the first series or the story of the refugee crisis in the second series.

[quote name='James']And what "valuable historical context" do fansubbers provide? lol[/quote]Haw, haw, haw... what was I thinkin'... I'm sure World Masterpiece Theater is gonna get licensed any year now...

[quote name='AzureWolf']...Greenfield has a lot of information at his disposal for the subject at hand (yes, more than you). He is taking that information and making a conclusion. If we knew what he was judging this conclusion on, we would be able to say more...[/quote]I don't need Greenfield or anyone else to give out with nothing but conclusions and withhold facts, and I decline to assume facts based on assertions. That sort of thing led to the invasion of Iraq. You can call me "kid" and characterize what I say as "foolhardy" and so on but I rather you tone down the [i]ad hominem[/i] stuff and speak to the argument. I made a clear distinction between fansubbing and piracy and while you don't have to honor it, not doing so is pretty much what I am accusing Greenfield of doing. And he at least should know better.

[quote name='AzureWolf ']I don't see how this statement has any relevance, and in fact, it seems to weaken your argument. You've heard of one case, meaning those people doing illegal sales of fansubbed material were caught. I'm assuming that you've heard of more cases where self-made (and most likely, poorer) groups were caught. It is then comparatively safer to assume that the good, richer, and bigger pirating groups (i.e., the harder to catch ones) are using fansubs for their releases.[/quote]You seem to imply I am withholding information by only discussing one case because it suits my purposes. What I said was that I heard of exactly one case where an English-language translation script used in an HK bootleg was taken from a fansub group. That is what I mean, and I'd rather you didn't twist my words around to suit your own purposes. Another assumption you seem to make is that pirates have to be "caught" in order to be known as pirates. The fact is that there is plenty of HK bootleg material floating around. It's easy to buy and it's obviously pirated material. And it's not like nobody has ever seen these or seen rips from them. Like I said, these bootleggers have people in-house to cook up English-language subtitles, and that's what they use. [quote name='AzureWolf']I'm not saying fansubbers are responsible for piracy, but they certainly help to promote it. I've seen enough of fansubber logos or "if you paid for this you were ripped off" text on pirated copies to realize this fact.[/quote]How does labelling a fansub as such, ceasing distribution upon licensing etc. equate to "helping to promote" piracy? "Helping to promote" is a far cry from "potentially facilitating," which is the argument you are apparently trying to make. Fansubbers are not offering willing assistance in anything having to do with distributing anime for profit, which is what sets them apart from pirates. I can't see the point of damning fansubbers for the fact that other people sell their fansubs. That's a "blame the gun for the murder" argument. The key player in that scene is ebay, which refuses to do anything about people selling fansubs and bootlegs on their website even in the face of specific complaints about specific individuals. Applying your logic it's just as easy to [b]blame ADV for "promoting" piracy[/b]! They sell DVDs of their licensed product to people who then rip them and distribute the rips. If they never licensed and sold the DVDs, there wouldn't be any rips.

[QUOTE=James]I understand what you're saying about the licensees, however, we have to bear in mind that this material [i]is[/i] owned by the Japanese companies. At the very least, the intellectual property belongs to them. They therefore have the right to protect it, in whichever territory they choose. Secondly, it's fair to say that much of this stuff is still making its way back to the asia pacific region (and potentially other markets too). Nobody can say that fansubbing has no relationship to piracy, when there is an obvious intrinsic relationship there. Considering that much of this stuff is being subbed in America, it's fair to say that the Japanese companies have the right to a) stop the subbers and fansub distributors and b) to cut off the pirates within the region that the fansubs are selling or being physically distributed (as well as via the Internet). The Internet presents a particular problem. You could say that Americans could download the stuff that isn't licensed and therefore, they are doing nothing wrong. Although it's true that the anime isn't licensed, it's also true that downloading that content is nonetheless illegal, as a result of intellectual property laws. So whether or not the anime is licensed is a relatively moot point, in my view. The only reason that would come into it is whether or not licensees should be involved -- but obviously they are and I assume that they are legally able to be involved. So if it's a legal operation, I don't have any particular objection to it. It's hard to say whether or not the distinction between fansubbing and piracy is being blurred. I don't know (and I haven't seen in this thread) any truly authoritative statistics on that point. But again, it's worth mentioning that there [i]is[/i] fansubbed material in this region (and potentially other regions), which is sold via pirate software/bootleg vendors. The distinction here would be the same as saying "I download MP3s but I don't burn them and sell them." Sure, burning and selling MP3s en masse is a bigger problem for the companies. But let's not kid ourselves; both are illegal.[/QUOTE]I don't get where I come off sounding like I am unaware of the copyrights held by the Japanese producers, or that I wish to deny these rights to the companies. All I said was that [b]Greenfield won't be a party to anything the Japanese companies do, regardless of what he says[/b]. It's not possible, as I have explained. And there's no precedent in which the Japanese companies have done anything against English-language fansubbers. Nothing specific was mentioned about their plans to do so either. Until they do there's nothing newsworthy in what Greenfield said. I don't see an obvious connection between English-language fansubs and the Asian pirate market. HK pirate DVDs use English-language scripts from "in-house" translators with obvious dodgy results. I heard of exactly [b]one case[/b] where an English-language translation script used in an HK bootleg was taken from a fansub group. Again, the major problem is the distribution of unsubbed TV recordings - and those originate in and are distributed in Japan and Asia (mostly via P-to-P programs). I don't think that Bittorrent distribution of unsubbed recordings from American websites is any more ethical or desirable than BT distribution of US DVD rips, but there are offshore players in that game too. And there's very little value in a strictly legalistic interpretation of the situation because it fails to engage any ethical considerations not based on that interpretation. The "blurring" I am talking about was kicked off by Greenfield, who cited a case of action taken against [b]pirates[/b] as the first step in some undisclosed plan against [b]fansubbers[/b]. I think it is fair to question his motives in doing this. Even assuming that he is engaging in smear tactics is fair - there is no call for him to associate fansubs with heroin. None of this amounts to a cut-and-dried case for telling fansubbers to pack it in. Even with the current glut of licensing companies and a concurrent rush to license the very latest titles, there are plenty of older shows being subbed which don't seem likely to be licensed. In a few rare instances these shows won't even be re-released in Japan due to intractable copyright problems. Fansubs of these shows provide valuable historical context and aesthetic enjoyment which would not otherwise be available.

As I stated, if the Japanese companies want to choke off English-language fansubbing, they are going to have to do it on their own and not by proxy (which is what Greenfield seems to be talking about). The licensees can't do anything about shows they don't have licenses for. Once the shows are licensed, the licensees are merely protecting their own potential market. I don't see why the Japanese companies need to be invoked in this, or why Greenfield is blurring the distinction between piracy and fansubbing.

It's easy to settle on the 90s as the golden age or whatever. For one thing, most of what is available to Western fans was filtered by other fans via fansubbing. Licensees for the most part have simply grabbed up the shows the fans were keen on. There was also a very hot Japanese market (which allowed for a high quantity of releases) and a load of ambitious newcomers in the industry. Many of the newcomers made a big impact on storytelling quality. Some of them have left the industry. But I don't think the 90s overall produced a higher percentage of great series comapred to any other decade. A lot of shows boil down to inferior rip-offs of other better series of the time. And dismissing any part of anime history for any reason distorts what anime is about. Anime from the 90s reflects a rehashing and love of the earlier shows and themes just as much as it shows new thinking. Major figures like Gou Nagai and Miyazaki got their start in the 70s. Japanese fans tend to value series from the 60s through 80s more highly than the newer ones. I also think it's far too early to judge 21st century anime. Some new shows have stepped away from older storytelling styles and their reliance on mysticism. I think a few series like ROD OAV and TV and Ghost in the Shell SAC stack up with anything ever made. And there is still plenty of time.

I've seen this particular piece (the first one) elsewhere. Greenfield's cryptic and threatening statements here are typical of his attitude, but a bit hard to take seriously. First of all he seems to be accusing English-language fansubbers of ruining the Asian market for anime, which is ridiculous. Most fansubs nowadays are encoded from [b]recordings of the original TV broadcasts[/b]. These recordings are distributed in Asia through the internet. I can't see how English-language fansubs enter into this at all - they make a poor substitute for these original recordings. Until a given show is licensed, the US companies can't do anything about its being fansubbed - that would be up to the Japanese production companies. Once it is licensed, US-based fansubbing of the show is a domestic matter between the licensee and the fansubbing group. It's odd that someone deeply involved in the industry has gotten fansubbers confused with bootleggers. Perhaps the intention is to sow confusion amongst the wider public - I have seen fansubs referred to as "bootlegs" in mass media articles on anime. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Having recently read the whole of the [url=http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/08/wo_jenkins081004.asp?p=1][color=blue]second article[/color][/url], I have to say that [b]the two articles are not really talking about the same thing[/b]. In fact, the paragraph quoted is rather odd when read in context. The article discusses the evolution of English-language fansubbing, and describes the historical attitude of the Japanese industry as being encouraging. While this is informative, it does not serve as a guide to what American companies should do or even the current Japanese attitude. This piece then mismatches Japanese fan activity (particularly dojinshi, or fangroup manga) with fansubbing. Many dojinshi could be construed as a violation of copyrighted characters but the Japanese producers don't think it is necessary or desirable to prevent them being published. I don't think dojinshi publishing is comparable to fansubbing. Dojinshi are [i]an alternative product[/i] - buying a dojinshi based on a given title does not preclude watching or reading the original title. Fansubs are roughly equivalent to what the US licensees sell, and one can arguably be substituted for the other.

Shoujo/josei and shounen/seinen are not that hard to distinguish from each other. In manga there's really no question at all, because all the magazines and tankubons are gender-specific. It hardly ever takes more than a couple of minutes of googling to find out which magazine or tankubon series a manga title ran in. Some common shoujo mags are Ribon and Nakayoshi (for the younger set), ShoComi and BetsuComi for teens. There are a couple of lists on the web. Most anime are adapted from or are adapted into manga, and the above would be applied to that manga. Anime not based on or adapted into manga can be sorted out fairly easily; it just takes a bit of experience. For something like Tenchi Muyo, assuming there was no manga, the dead giveaway is the fact that one male is surrounded by romantically interested females (the "harem" cliche of many shounen/seinen comedies). A shoujo romance might involve a rivalry between two girls, but one of them will almost always be the lone female protagonist. A more common situation in shoujo romance is for the main female character to be interested in or pursued by two males.

[quote name='sakura18']I don't think Shoujo manga would be read a lot by boys thatn the girls do. If for any reason, a boy WOULD read a shoujo manga, it would be only to either giggle and tease at the nudity, or to laugh in the faces of the dramatic and heart-breaking situations os the shoujo's main character....at least that's what i believe.[/quote]I am not sure what your first sentence is trying to say or what your definition of a boy is. It's possible that adolescent males might have a tough time with dramatic romance stories whether they be shoujo or shounen. But I'm not an adolescent and this topic is about males but not limited by age group. Plenty of male anime fans can enjoy dramatic romance - or just enjoy stories with believable female characters, as shoujo is not always about "heartbreak." [quote name='Okita']...there are cases where the story will mingle with other genre, but they are still distinctively shoujo...[/quote]Shoujo is not limited to romance. There are many different types of stories. And I agree that a shoujo title will feel a certain way no matter what kind of story is being told. [color=blue]edit[/color]:[quote name='DeathBug']... I myself am a huge fan of Tenchi muyo!...[/quote]Tenchi Muyo is a shounen series; the manga was adapted from the anime and ran in Kadokawa Dragon Comics Jr., a well-known shounen imprint.

I apologize to all concerned for my second post in this thread. I said enough the first time and went too far the second time.

[QUOTE=Okita]densuke: while you have point in that there are manga with just as poorly executed ending as anime, you must admit that their a quite a few cases where the animated series literally cuts off without a critical resolution to make the conclusion satisfactory. This habit I would dearly like to see anime forgo, I hate series that attempts this, better to deviate from the manga completely than to cut itself off like that. eg: Legend of Basara, Kare Kano and HxH (though I admit that last redeemed itself through the endless series of OVA that just seems a tag on to the series.)[/QUOTE]My point is not that reading the manga wouldn't be preferable, just that the anime is worth watching [i]on its own[/i] even if it doesn't get to the end of the manga's run. Sometimes it has to happen, which is the case with Berserk and Kare Kano. I have never had a big problem with the way either of these adaptations ended. And most people whine if the studios change the endings from the manga's ending anyway, so that won't save the day. The only adaptations I don't like are too short to even tell you who the characters are, like Tokyo Babylon OAV, X: The Movie and RG Veda (funny how the ones I remember are all based on CLAMP works).

After reading this thread, which contains one guy lighting a (dimly flickering) match and 20 people fanning the flames of who-knows-what (they certainly don't - the original poster never said what this was all about), I think that [b]not only should anime be generally banned, but people who want to watch it should be forced to take some kind of test wherein they demonstrate that they can distinguish fantasy from reality[/b].

[quote name='Panda']I am sorry if you misunderstood my statement densuke...[/quote]It's more that saying something like "the anime makes you feel like the story just drops you or is incomplete" makes the anime sound awful. I didn't think you meant to go quite that far. And there's been way too much wailing and gnashing of teeth over adaptations like Berserk etc. Manga are often more enjoyable than their anime adaptations, but it seems to me that editing etc. is usually the least of it.[quote name='bishonenNEKO']There are a ton more mangas than animes. Like Psychic Academy or AI Love You.[/quote]Psychic Academy Aura Banshou is a poor example, as it already has been adapted to anime.

[quote name='Okita']...I am not against the anime i did mention, I would go so far to say that I like Chobit alot, despite it's fairly unoriginal plot... also while they are not classify as shoujo, they are fairly often clumped together (yes purest might disagree but I am not so steep in anime folkslore that I don't make plenty of mistake myself.[/quote]The thing about mixing up shounen and shoujo is that they really are quite different. It's true that lots of people can't always tell them apart, but I don't think that's any virtue in itself. And purposely mashing them together kind of kills off the topic of this thread. There are plenty of shounen titles out there with female lead characters. But those characters often don't seem to be very easy for females to identify or even sympathize with - they tend to be much too pliable and pneumatic. Shoujo manga at least tries to present female characters which female readers can deal with, and while they tend to lack self-indulgent and generally creepy male characters, I for one don't find this to be any great loss... Also, shoujo manga encompasses more than romance (and the thread title at least does speak to shoujo in a broader way). The more I read shoujo manga the more I appreciate titles which include elements of action, fantasy etc. CLAMP made its name on this sort of thing. And of course yaoi and yuri are two subsets of shoujo romance which even male romance fans tend to shy away from. I can enjoy reading yaoi or yuri but I can't really get into the mad fangirl thing centering around them. [quote name='Okita]I've read all three series you've mentioned and I agree, there are many mellow series out there that are quite popular, and the conversion to anime does ensure it has a larger male audience...[/QUOTE]Few shounen romances are as good as any of these. Only Kimagure Orange Road can come close to Marmalade Boy, and it only features one love triangle...[QUOTE=Okita]...the majority of shoujo that [I]I [/I] read I've liked (discounting the virtually plotless steam-fest that seems to have the singular purpose of getting to the hot and heavy by the third page)[/QUOTE]The thing about Shinjo Mayu I object to is not the sex but the plotting, which is frantic and repetitious. Even the sex doesn't seem to be any fun - it's so obsessive and desperate...[QUOTE=Okita']To clarify, this is regarding shoujo romance as a genre, I an not typifying, merely asking wether an individual would give the manga the time of day AFTER they've heard that it's a shoujo? Or would simply say "oh one of THEM" and disregard?...[/quote]This is the main reason why I think it's important for people to distinguish shounen from shoujo. Kare Kano for example is a great title and lots of males have seen and enjoyed the anime. A lot of them also don't recognize it as shoujo either because they just don't know or because it's more convenient to pretend it's just romance. But that just prevents them from realizing that they have been exposed to something different from what they are used to. It's true that anime in particular tends to blur genre distinctions at times to try to attract a wider audience. And there are plenty of female fans who enjoy shounen or seinen titles. But there is little enough shoujo anime as it is, and I would really hate to see the day when its unique qualities are completely eclipsed.

[quote name='Okita']I'm not talking about mass market drive such as love hina or chobit etc (and the later clamp admits to be a shounen anime), but rather those shoujo that uses romance as its backbone rather than compliment.[/quote]Perhaps it's unfair to use the term "mass market drive(l)" to denigrate anime or manga you don't like. It's all up for sale, after all. When you mention Chobits or Love Hina though ([i]neither[/i] of which are shoujo titles), you could be pointing to "comedy/romance" or what is known (at least to American fans) as "harem anime." Certainly these are very popular and not necessarily very good.[quote name='Okita']Series such as Hana Yori Dango have almost as much drama as a soup, yet many people find them quite appealing (as compare to the soup). But how many male honestlly find these pure romance series a blast to read?[/quote]HYD definitely verges on soap operatics. The characters mindlessly and unerringly find ways to get into trouble. But there are other old shoujo romance titles which are less frantic, like Marmalade Boy and Here is Greenwood. I know that all three titles had some sort of following among male fans at some point. [quote name='Okita']I am a very ethused fan of most shoujo romance, which i consider my second favourite genre...[/quote]I like romance and watch or read plenty of it. But there is an awful lot of shoujo romance around lately, due to licensing and the efforts of fan translation groups. It's nice that it's available but it was easier to say I liked most of it when there was less of it. As it is, I don't even [i]read[/i] most of it, and there are some mangaka like Shinjo Mayu whose work I can't stand. [quote name='Okita']So how many poeple here read romance manga and like the majority of them? who likes the genre? Is this type of genre a female dominant one or is the fans more equally split?[/quote]This question is possibly misleading as to what you are looking for. Did you mean who likes [i]shoujo[/i] romance manga?

[quote name='Panda']...Kare Kano, Hellsing, Gravitation, Chobits and a few other animes don't complete the storyline or follow the storyline that is in the manga. Which when watching the anime makes you feel like the story just drops you or is incomplete. Reading the manga is the only way you can find out what happened to the characters...[/quote]I think this is unfair in that it makes it sound like some anime adaptations are poorly done ripoffs. I think most of them are quite skillfully done. Regardless of how much they edit out or where they leave off, they are worthwhile in their own right, even if the viewer never takes up reading the manga the anime was based on. A few OAV series (like Tokyo Babylon) provide only a brief introduction to or slice of a story told in a manga, but you didn't mention any of them. And plenty of manga endings are no less open-ended (after 20+ volumes in some cases!) than their anime adaptations.

[quote name='Okita']...I am unsure as to whether the series is finish or not? I've never come across the series on the net much and while I know the anime is complete already The anime is suppose to be alot longer...[/quote]The anime and manga are both complete. The manga ran 20-something volumes. 38 of the 50 episodes of the anime have been fansubbed.

I read some of this. Hiroyuki Nishimori is the mangaka. The artwork is kind of odd - the characters are sort of elongated and look very 2-D - but it's not unappealing. Megumi is very cute (her buddy Miki is even cuter). This title stacks up very well against what usually passes for shounen comedy these days. The idea is simple but open-ended, and (amazingly enough) it's expressed without resort to fanservice. Megumi quickly winds up with a sort of fan club. The boys in the fan club all want to go out with her, of course, but what they usually do is try to help Megumi reverse the spell or curse she claims to be under. So pretty much everyone in the story is taking the long way round. A 50-episode anime adaptation of this series ran in 2002-03. It's kind of cheaply made but it's very funny. Probably the best thing about it is getting to hear Megumi Hayashibara in the lead role, yowling and grunting and using a sort of low-life male dialect.

This show is impossible to discuss in a manner appropriate to this all-ages forum. It doesn't really have character development or romance - it lives or dies by the adult humor. So there is really no way to talk around the kind of stuff that really doesn't belong in this forum. The initial post goes a little too far already I think... I enjoyed watching the show but I just don't see how this thread is going to live a happy life here.

[quote name='r2vq']...I'm watching Episode 20 right now. That's where your signature is from no?[/quote]I can't say exactly which episode - it's been awhile since I made it up. The new series definitely has a TON of fans - I see 8,000 or so downloads over at TV-Nihon for each of the latest episodes.

[quote name='r2vq']...recently I've been getting into Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon, or Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon (Same name, translated titles) Live Action version. I think the characters are really cute as well as the actresses. I was wondering if anybody else liked this series?[/quote]The live action show got a little love somewhere back in this thread. I've been all over it since it started airing. [QUOTE=r2vq] Compared to the other Moon series, including Stars, I find it more entertaining to watch. I find the characters have more depth and relatability. It might just be because they're people.[/QUOTE]I like the cast a lot. They have really grown into their parts, and they work together well. Even the villains have managed to project themselves into admittedly limited roles. I am not sure how I would rate one over the other. The anime's fight scenes are weaker but the new show has some really awkward moments involving cheap props or unconvincing action. And neither quite pulls off the feeling of the manga. [QUOTE=r2vq] *drools* And Hama Chisaki is the perfect Mercury.[/QUOTE]*wipes off sig* IYA DA!!!