Zeta

[QUOTE] So basically doing a planned PR stunt rather than a spontaneous one is going to draw more warm feelings toward this guy? Yeah, I got ya.... And I don't like it.[/QUOTE] I don't know about you, but I would rather do something out of my own free will rather than someone demanding me to do it. *shrug* But again, what will it accomplish? Hundreds of other parents camping outside of his ranch? I fail to see what it would accomplish.

[QUOTE]Well, seeing that he's the reason that their sons and daughters are over there fighting and dying the least he can do is offer some sort of appology since she took the trouble to go over there. I know for a fact that when he was here visiting he took time to see the local family of a fallen soldier. It was a very good PR move and he should be glad that someone told him to do it. Maybe if he saw the woman who's camping outside his ranch his rating would go up.[/QUOTE] There is a difference between him visiting someone while he is on the road than someone demanding him to visit him by camping outside of his ranch. [QUOTE]Did he go there by choice or by "choice?" Because somtimes people have no choice but to join the millitary, and once your there you have no choice but to go to Iraq (See: People crossing over to Canada to avoid the war) Maybe he was just there to get an education and than, ta-da, Bush goes and createst his magical little war and he gets killed. Hey, I'd be pretty ******* pissed at Bush (Moreso than I already am) if that happened to me or my relatives. [/QUOTE] So you are saying that just because someone joined the army for an education, means they shouldn't be called upon to serve if the time arises? I am sure that a vast majority of the people who enlist join for just that reason, someone to pay for their education. Her son knew, or should have known what he was getting into when he joined the armed forces. You don't join and expect to never be called upon. And saying that is is Bush's reason alone that he is there is ridiculous. There are many more people who work with him, helped him make the decision, and so on.

I don't believe that he should stop and talk to her, I agree with his actions here. Imagine if he did stop and meet with her. How many other fathers and mothers would come and camp out on his ranch, demanding a visit for their dead sons and daughters from the war? And as Morpheus and Retribution said, he joined the armed forces by his own choice. There will always be the chance you will be called into duty, and could possibly be killed. You don't go into the armed forces expecting to never see any military action, which comes with the possibility of death. [QUOTE]As for pulling out of Iraq. Terrible idea in this stage of the game. We came into Iraq, uprooted their government, knocked out their electricity, and in general threw the country into a state of chaos with this war. We need to restore order, by instating a new, stable, centralized government that can handle things for themselves before we pull out. Leaving now would be extremely cowardly. Really, you have to finish what you start.[/QUOTE] Couldn't have said it better myself Retribution.

[QUOTE=Morpheus]Is it really that hard to buy a song for 99 cents? I know some artists make large amounts of money, but what if you went to get your paycheck and found out that a large chunk was missing? Just missing. Never to return. Can't pay for rent or food? Who cares? I've downloaded about 2 dozen songs ilegally in my life, and they were all deleted 2 years ago. I decided it was worthless. Why not just support a band and pay a frickin dollar for the song that cost them a lot of money to record? Just because you will buy the DVD doesn't make it right. The box office is the main source of income for the motion picture industry. Saying you can't live without a movie for a few months is rediculous.[/QUOTE] I get this is directed towards me, so I suggest you go back and read what I said. No it isn't that hard to buy a song for 99 cents. But if you are going to do that, you might as well just go out and buy the cd if you decide to download 15-20 songs from a band. I will download the songs yes, but I will also go and buy the CD, which means I do support them ;). I just don't delete them, I am a lazy guy, so sue me. There is no difference than downloading 15-20 songs and just buying their cd is all that I said. Why is it ridiculous? It is a movie I really like and which I would like to watch from the time it is taken out of theatres to the time it is released. I will download it yes, and then I will go and buy it when the time comes for it to be out. I don't download movies and never go and buy them. That is the only way I download things. And I suggest you go back and read my post. I [i]never[/i] said it was right. It is just what I do. I even asked if my way of doing things would still get me in trouble. I never said it was right, don't assume. lol

I myself am not going to go into a rant about it being wrong, one because it has been done, and two because I download things all the time. I am surprised that there are actually people out there who don't download things, not even a little. *shrug* I download music, all the time, Three fourths of my i-pod was full of downloaded songs. But usually, usually I will also own the CD that the songs have come from. It is like the anime preview thing earlier, I usually download a few songs and see if I like. I just don't take the time to delete the files after buying, lol. Can I still get in trouble even if I legally own the CD? o0 And things like iTunes are no different than buying a CD if you look at it. What, it costs 99 cents right? You download 15-20 songs you just paid for a CD anyways. Movies...guilty as charged. I've got movies that include Episode 3 and [i]Batman Begins[/i], to older movies such as[i] A Beautiful Mind[/i] and [i]Gangs of New York[/i]. The same thing applies here. I own[i] A Beautiful Mind[/i] and [i]Gangs of New York[/i]. And when Episode 3 and BB comes out, I will own them as well. But they are both such good movies I couldn't live without. :p

[spoiler] Ehhh....I myself doubt that. Voldemore went into the Potters house that night with the expressed purpose to kill Harry and he had no doubt in his mind that he would succeed. The most powerful dark wizard of his time being defeated by a mere baby would not have crossed his mind.[/spoiler]

Morpheous......I direct this part to your second prediction. If I am not mistaken we have been given a clear cut answer to where Harry's scar came from. From Dumbledore and others if I am not mistaken. No need to go come up with predictions for it, heh. Having finished the book a few days ago I must say....I am still in a bit of shock. Great book, yet very sad, at least for me. :animecry: Snape is good. [spoiler] We go all the way back to the Unbreakable Vow chapter.Snapes hand flinches, obviously this concerns him in some way, seeing as how he knows of the plan. *Fast forward to the argument that Hagrid mentions overhearing between Snape and Dumbledore. This right here is where I believe it all came into play. Snape has just told Dumbledore what he has all ready suspected about Malfoy and the Vow that Snape has taken. Dumbledore doesn't want any of his students to be hurt/killed and therefore orders Snape to follow through with his Vow. Not only will this protect Malfoy, but it will also ensure a good guy in [i]very[/i] good standings with Voldemort. Just in case the argument part is a little hard to understand, here is a simplified version of the argument itself.[i] "Dumdledore all ready knew, and Snape confided in him about the situation. And my guess is Snape told Dumbledore he was not going to kill him, which started the argument, and ultimately having DUmbledore order Snape to follow the Vow to save Malfoys life"[/i]) *And when the time comes for Snape to follow through with the Vow, Dumbledore's pleading is not for his own life, but for the life of Malfoy (Malfoy was obviously not going to do it, and would thus be killed by Voldemort if Snape didn't go through with the Vow). *Now onto Snapes escape. Just look at the duel between Harry and Snape. Snape is [i]still[/i] giving him lessons on how to stand up to Voldemort, telling him he will never get anywhere if he doesn't learn to close his mind. Why would a loyal supporter keep racking this into his head, even after killing Dumbledore, a way to defeat Voldemort. *Now, people will be going "but oh, no one else in the Order knows he is still a good guy, so how can he give them information, yadda yadda yadda." Simple. He doesn't give them information. He makes it possible for Harry to continue on with the quest for the Horcruxes in subtle ways. He makes sure that others do not interfere with Harry's path to Voldemort, and Voldemort alone.[/spoiler] [spoiler] Harry being a Horcrux.....is a very cool idea, but I don't think it will actually be. The Horcruxes have to be destroyed in order for them not to work. There will be two paths here with this. 1) Harry will realize this before facing Voldemort and will take his life, and hopefully have someone else destroy Voldemort. BUt the problem with this is is that the prophecy plain says this " 2) Harry will realize this before or after facing Voldemort, defeats him, and then takes his own life. I myself don't like the idea of Harry having to commit suicide to destroy the last Horcrux. I just don't think JKR will actually write a suicide in the books, *shrug*. That is the main reason why I don't think this will come to pass. And anyways, I believe it is all spelled out all ready.[/spoiler] Horcruxes [spoiler]*We have the ring, Riddles diary, the lockey, Hufflepuffs cup, A possible Ravenclaw/Gryfindor object,a mysterious number 6, and Voldemort himself as number 7. *The Gryfindor object (as far as Dumbledore is aware) is safely in his posession (the sword from CoS.) *And Dumbledore says that Voldie entered Harry's house that night with the intent to make his last Horcrux after killing him, implying that he has at least 5 of them all ready finished (since Voldie himself is one of them). And if he was planning on making his 6th [i]after[/i] his death, how would he become the Horcrux at all? Remember, Harry was going to be dead. So how would Harry be the horcrux is what I ask you. *Dumbledore then goes on to say he believes the 6th is to be Voldie's snake Nagini.Makes sense. He wasn't able to get his last Horcrux with the death of Harry, and therefore makes it when he kills the dude in the beginning of GoF(a significant death by the fact that it is his death which ultimately begins his track back to his body and power). He has had no chance to make Harry a horcrux, and still has one horcrux remaining. Why not make a pet he seems to "love" (for lack of better word) and a symbol that shows the Slytherin connection as Dumble so speaks.[/spoiler] So, that is all I really have to say. A lot of what I have said has probably all ready been said, seeing as how I haven't really read anything earlier than a few posts on this page, heh. So if it is repeats, just ignore it. ^_^;;

Hit ctrl. alt. del. and go to File > New Task (run) and type explorer in the window that pops up. I had that same problem awhile back and htat is how I fixed it, was surprised that it was such an easy way to fix. Try that.

I believe he was trained by the US to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Sorry to hear about your dad, but I am sure he knew what he was getting into when he joined up. You don't join the army and never expect to be called on. That is just my opinion, *shrug*.

Graduation was something I was looking forward to. I was looking forward to the little scenes in movies where you see friends hugging and smiling and jumping in slow motion, the parties...and all the fun associated with it. Unfortunately I did not get to experience any of that. :-( I did graduate yes. But with like a month left of Junior year my mom moved for the most bogus reasons to Georgia. So, I had about a month of school down here before summer hit. And then come Senior year. I have classes up the wazoo and realize that people down here are idiots, no offense to those who live here. I made friends yes, but not like my friends back home in Wisconsin. These were just people to "chill" with for a year. Come college, I am never going to see nor talk to them again. Hell, I all ready don't even talk to them. Because of all that, I decided not to attend the ceremony with the diploma and what not. Partly because I didn't want to graduate with these people, but also to deprive my mom the happy moment of crossing the stage and getting my diploma. *shrug* She was mad, but she didn't say too much about it. ^_^;; I've never really liked my mom, as you can probably tell. But I am happy that I am no longer going to have to see these people ever again. *cough* Again, aplogies to those who live here.

[QUOTE]ust remember that once you're famous you're always going to be even after you die.[/QUOTE] And that my friend, is the key to immortality. In my mind at least, lol. I would want to be known for my stories, and only that. I am going to come out and say it that I think my writing is pretty dang good. I've been writing since I was about 7 years old. I have gone from the little ole' stories concerning things all ready created (such as DBZ, Star Wars, etc...) to writing things my own. Naturally I draw inspiration from other things, but I try and keep it myself as much as possible. I've been given many a comments concerning my writing from teacher who wish that someday they will read a book by me. *shrug*

Can't you just go to Star>programs>said program> and then check if there is an uninstall option right there? I know there are some programs I have on my computer that I am not able to remove through the regular add/remove, but in when I do the above there is a special uninstaller for the program.

I also agree that his acting was fine, except in a select few parts. I do agree with Dagger concering the whole "you are so beautiful" scene. I literally cringed and shut my eyes through that part, couldn't stand it, heh. The conversation right before Anakin and Obi-Wan began to fight was fine, in my mind. I really liked it. But the party right before Anaking gets [spoiler]every limb other than his mechanical hand chopped off[/spoiler] by Obi-Wan was the only thing that really bothers me. His "you underestimate my power" was just so bleggh. If he had said "power" any differently, I am sure it would have been much better. For all the EU readers out there at OB, which do you prefer, The OT books and those after, or the prequel books? I am torn between the two. After having just read a great many prequel ones, and then picking up [i]Shadows of the Empire[/i] I don't know which I prefer. I am going to go back and read some OT books this summer, since it has been a good half a year to a year since I actually read one.

I am going to repeat what I have said a few other times; you and I will get nowhere with this argument. I wish to regard the EU and all Star Wars books not labeled as Infinities as relevant material because I am able to do so, since they are canon, and are only regarded as bogus if they contradict something from the films. And I assure you; nothing I have said has been contradicted in the films. And if it has, you have no provied ample proof to show it contradicts something in the films. Have you read the Episode 3 novelisation? I am assuming you at least regard [i]that[/i] as relevant material to draw upon? Hopefully you do, otherwise this will fall on deaf ears. Near the end, when the decision of where [spoiler] Luke and Leia will be hidden, we see a little conversation between Yoda and Qui-Gon. We have Yoda blatantly blaming him and the Jedi order for their fall. He goes on to say that they have been training for the [i]last[/i] war with the Sith, a failure in their teachings (which if you remember, I said at the beginning of the debate). Qui-Gon, whom Yoda holds as a much more powerful Jedi at this time, blatantly tells him to not blame himself. That it is not only his fault. Which is what I have been saying as well. Yes, the Jedi brought upon a lot of the hardships they faced by themselves. But as Yoda said, their teachings have remained the same, and not once has the Republic fallen. Only when the Dark Side and Palpatine come into play within the Republic itself, do they fail.[/spoiler] it is a 50-50 situation. I have yet to see a situation in SW and real life where there is only one person at fault. *shrug* though I guess that is just me. [quote]But if the ability is available to the Dark Side, why would a switch to the Light Side even matter? The switch wouldn?t change anything, because there?s nothing to be changed in the first place. And again, what happens in the EU is irrelevant, because going by the films themselves, the premise of the EU post-mortem material is broken, so any reference to the EU is useless at this point.[/quote] Who says it is Dark Side ability as well? You haven't given any concrete proof that is is Siren. You are basing this off of the fact that Anakin has a Force Spirit at the end. That isn't proof enough. If Palpatine does indeed have the same power, Lucas would not have ended the saga with how he did. With the destruction of the Sith. With the Force being brought into balance, regardless of your take on the matter, Lucas said it was in balance and I am taking his word over interpretations. He would give you inkling that Palpatine does indeed have a Force Spirit. We do not see it, anywhere. He obviously does not know the ability to the extent that we see with Obi-Wan, Anaking, and Yoda. Do I know how Anakin can do it and not Palpatine? No. I am making a guess. But that fact that we see no shred of evidence that Palpatine also has the ability to have a Force Spirit, it is obvious he does not have the ability. There is obviously something that Anakin knows and Palpatine doesn't. Again, why is it impossible that Anakin is not naturally inclined to have the ability? It is entirely possible that he doesn't even know he has the ability. And could this not be another form of the manipulation of Palpatine at work? Making Anakin believe that he, like everyone else is mortal, and that the only way to continue his existence is to search it out? Which ensures that he stays loyal to Palpatine so that he can "find" the way to do it. We know Anakin has this thing with stopping people from dieing, and I see no reason Anakin wouldn't want to live himself. By making Anakin think that the only way he can cheat death, is with Palpatine's help, is the perfect way to make him go on a "goose hunt" on how to figure out, without even knowing he already has the ability. Just because Palpatine says they will both find the answer, doesn't prove that he did indeed find the answer in the end as well. Instead of finding the answer to immortality in the "shape" (for lack of better word at the moment) of a Force Spirit, Palpatine finds his way to immortality by inhabiting clones. I hardly see Lucas trying to mesh [i]anything[/i] in with the films. The only "meshing" I have seen is him taking the name of Coruscant as the capital planet. The dates with the Clone Wars aren?t meshing. The comment in Episode II ( I believe) from that old guy on Naboo about a full-scale war with the Republic goes against events from the EU that tells otherwise. He isn't meshing the EU in, he is unmeshing. And that is entirely within his power to do so. But does that mean all EU is unreliable? No. And again onto your comments with the EU. Entirely your choice. But I can safely draw upon the EU when talking about SW. Your canon link only proves that I can. But you are entirely up to your own devices if you want to be a movies only person. [quote]And just examine it in the context of the films. What are the films telling us? Everything points (damn near confirms, really) that Palpatine has a Force Spirit, established through plot developments throughout the Saga.[/quote] Where? What? A single sentence damn near confirms it? [quote] But Anakin does learn it from Palpatine. There?s no other way.[/quote] Where does it say this? [quote]But it?s the Order of Whills or nothing. The only reason anyone has a Force Spirit in the Saga is Order of Whills. And since it?s only Order of Whills, if Anakin has figured it out, Palpatine has, as well.[/quote] Is it not possible that he could have figured it out himself, if he had to actually figure it out at all? Palpatine said himself that Vader will become more powerful than himself and Yoda. With that in mind, assuming of course Anakin has to figure out how to do it, he could easily figure it out and leave Palpatine in the dust about it. [quote]But see, you?re basing this on the idea that the EU is accurate because Palpatine wouldn?t have the same ability as Anakin, but Palpatine would (and does) have the same ability, according to the films themselves.[/quote] Again, where? Where does it say/show/what have you say he has the same ability. Just because he says they will find a way, does not provide concrete evidence that he figures out how. Take it all with a grain of salt. Some stuff was drawn from the official novelisation, some from EU books, and some from the movie. *shrug* Just curious, but what was your profession in Galaxies? I'm on my way to be a Bounty Hunter myself. Game has picked up now that I can actually kill things, heh.

Quick reply, meeting at school for graduation crud. [quote] What ample evidence is there, Zeta? Is there any concrete proof the Dark Side was playing a part in the Jedi failure? Think about it. The Jedi Council let their abilities go soft; they became too comfortable with the idea that they were the ultimate cognition in the galaxy; they acted as if they could do no wrong (and boy, did they get quite the wake-up call)...they brought the ****storm down upon themselves. They were stagnant, like the Republic, and out of stagnancy comes destruction.[/quote] Is there concrete proof that it wasn't Siren? You haven't provided me proof of this either. What I have been saying, and have been saying all along, is that it is a half and half fault. The Jedi for allowing themselves to think extrememly high of themselves, diminishing their abilities, which allowed the Dark Side to effectively cloud what little control over their abilities they had left. The Jedi Order has basically stayed the same in its fundamental beliefs and teachings, and not once has it resulted in the Republic being overthrown and the galaxy being thrown into the darkness it is. But when a Dark Lord of the Sith is on the scene in the Jedi's backyard, only then does it occur. It is a 50-50 laying of the blame Siren. Proof? Read the novels. Read the Clone Wars books, specifically [i]Labryinth of Evil[/i] and [i]Revenge of the Sith[/i] itself. As you said it yourself Siren. Lucas stresses points that are important. He stressed the importance in the movies, and it is stressed in the books. [quote]...by Force-ghost I'm assuming you mean Force Spirit, and I don't have the time right now, but earlier in this very thread you stated (quoting the EU, I believe) that the Force Spirit is a Light Side ability...but it's nowhere near a Light Side ability, as shown by Episode III.[/quote] Who/what said this? After going through my posts I have failed to find where I make the claim that it is a strictly Light Side ability, and by quoting the EU. Are you talking about my post where I say that Palpatine coming back to life and taking over a clone body is the parallel to the Jedi Force Spirit? If so, then I can answer. [quote]Fact of the matter is, Anakin could only have learned how to attain a Force Spirit while serving Palpatine, which would classify the Force Spirit itself as "universal" ability, so Dark Siders and Light Siders alike can possess one, provided they have the training.[/quote] [quote]And since it's an ability that can be found in the Dark Side as well as the Light Side, "compassion instead of greed" becomes inaccurate, because the Dark Side is hardly compassionate, yet Dark Siders can have the Force Spirit ability same as Light Siders, which would effectively nullify any conjecture that Anakin had found a "loophole" of sorts in his redemption in RotJ. There is no loophole. There's just sloppy writing that doesn't "fix" anything, instead just ends up breaking things even more. lol[/quote] How is it an ability found in the Dark Side? Palpatine doesn't come back as a Force Spirit. Anakin does, but he isn't part of the Dark Side any longer. Palpatine found a way to cheat death, not become immortal. How he is not immortal? Because his new body can still be killed and he has to transfer to a new body quickly, otherwise he will be lost forever. Why is it so hard to believe, that Anakin being the Chosen One, the most powerful Jedi and the one who brings balance to the Force, cannot become one with the Force for exactly that reason? [quote] Careful here. If the Force Spirit is a reward for doing good things, being on the Light Side of the Force, then we would see many more Force Spirits in the films--and I'd think many other Light Side Jedi have studied the Order of Whills...and we don't see any of them. Becoming one with the Force being a type of benefit of being Light Side? I don't think so.[/quote] Simple answer? George Lucas didn't want anymore Jedi to dissapear after death. He stopped it from happening in the later NJO books, and the Jedi that die in the prequels. He wanted to explain to us the mystery behind the Force Spirit. In all technicality, that is why we do not see them. Anyways...a more...on the topic answer. Where do I say it is a reward for doing good things? lol. I said Yoda and Obi-Wan become one with the Force. How? We now have the answer that Qui-Gon taught Yoda and Obi-Wan. And I repeat what I said above. Why is it so impossible to believe that Anakin, the Chosen One, who brings balance to the Force and is the most powerful Jedi has this ability for exactly that reason? What did Lucas pull in the Prequels to match with the EU? I am curious. We know that he completely ignored the original Clone Wars dates set forth in the Thrawn Trilogy. Why would he ignore something has important as that, but make adjustments for other things? Unless I am missing the add-ins you are talking about concering his adjustments to accomodate the EU, please point them out to me. EDIT: Addes some stuff. All right, in this small part I am going to be on your side. Lets only take the movies into play here, seeing as how that seems to be the only source you will accept, regardless of what we can safely assume as canon. You and I both know of Palpatine's line in ROTS that says something along the lines of "to cheat death only one has mastered, but together we can find a way." And at the end of ROTJ we have Anakin coming back as a Force Spirit, but not Palpatine, but you say that Palpatine [i]should[/i] have one too correct? At least that is what I get from this statement: [i]Light and Dark both possessing the same Force Spirit ability, which seems to be the case now.[/i] Why do you say this? Where is your basis? Because Palpatine says they can figure it out? And because Anakin has a Force Spirit at the end? Palpatine does not. Why? He should right? Not necesarily. Palpatine does has not figured out the secrets of the Force Spirit. Otherwise I am sure Lucas would have put [i]something[/i] in there correct? But no he doesn't. Palpatine is "destroyed" on the Death Star. Which means that Anakin doesn't learn it from Palpatine. How else can Anakin then become a Force Spirit after death? He naturally has this ability. Not because he does good deeds as you claim I have said. But because he is the Chosen One. The one who brings balance to the Force. And now, using this, we can bring the EU into play. Palpatine [i]never[/i] comes back as a Force Spirit. Not once do you see a Force Spirit of him. You have him die, and then he transfers to a clone body right away. He [i]needs[/i] a clone body to survive. Why? Because he hasn't figured out the true secret to immortal life as Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, and Anakin have. If Palpatine had taught Anakin the secrets of become a Force Spirit, Palpatine would have no need for the clones. All Palpatine has done is found a way to prolong his life. A life that he is not immortal in, because he can still be destroyed. My apologies if there are spelling mistakes, my word program is going whacko and I keep having to send error reports. -_-

[quote] Then an even greater indictment of the Jedi. They had the ability, and even then couldn't use it, because they were so wrapped up in themselves and so ignorant of the real world. If they have the ability, then they have no excuse. It's a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" type of thing.[/quote] Which goes back to the Dark Side clouding everything. Have you read the novel? It only provides more truth in Yoda's line. It isn't just themselves to blame Siren, why continue to say that it is? There is ample evidence that they are not the only ones to blame. They are not 100% at fault. Remember the little speech between Anakin and Sidious in his chambers? "To cheat death, only one has mastered. But together I am sure we will find a way." Or something similar to that end. I have no doubt in my mind that they both were able to find a way. And the fact that Anakin redeemed himself in ROTJ he no longer has the handicap of having to find a clone body to sustain himself as Palpatine does. We know that the Dark Side basically "uses" up the user, especially if they draw as upon it as heavily as Sidious does. Does that mean this cannot apply after ones death? So yes, why can this not apply after death as well. Without the body, he cannot sustain himself because of the tremendous toll that his power still takes on him even in death, since he doesn't relearn all his teachings after he dies. So it is quite possible, and makes sense that the effects of such power usage could destroy him completely, if he doesn't get to a clone in time. But he didn't find a way to become one with t he Force, as Obi-Wan and co. do. He just found a way to cheat death. Two different things here. How so? Palpatine didn't become one with the Force. Then how does Anakin have a Force-ghost? By redeeming himself and turning away from the Dark Side and fulfilling the prophecy of the Chose One by bringing balance to the Force with the death of Palpatine. [quote]As for Episode III "proving" Lucas works closely with the EU authors, it doesn't really "prove" anything. All it does is show just how volatile and scattered the EU really is, especially when Lucas has to write-in (rather, wedge-in) "saves" like that (and sometimes, the "saves" actually make things worse for everything).[/quote] Can you pelase tell me where I said he works closely with the EU authors? I said he works closely with the authors of the movie novelisations. lol.Anyways wWho said it was a save? He never said they didn't have the power. What about all those lines i n the movies, all of the movies, along the lines of "I sense much fear in you" etc..They can only sense fear then I take it? It is a logical assumption from things that happen in the movies and the abilities that they have in the movies Siren. It isn't an out of the blue assumption of the Jedi's ability.

Oh my good chap. If you go back a few posts and read a post by Siren, you will see that Lucas works quite closely with the authors of the move novelisations. :-) And if you will also look at the post with his different types of canon, it says that G-canon (absolute canon) includes the movies, the movie novelisations, and a few others. [i]G-canon is absolute canon; the movies, the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays and the Star Wars DK "Cross Sections", "Visual Dictionaries", and "Inside The Worlds Of" books based on the movies. G-canon always overides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.[/i]

Saw it opening day, and loved it. I've been watching it ever since...*cough* :animeswea Anyways, I myself thought it was a very good movie. Way better than the Episode's I and II. Though there are a few things here and there that I did not like. [spoiler] My favorite lightsabre battle had to be the between Anakin and Obi-Wan. I just found it too cool, especially the very beginning of the fight on the landing platform.[/spoiler] [spoiler]The Yoda and Palpatine fight was awesome,and hilarious at the same time. "My little green friend." I still crack up at that line. And when Yoda Force pushed Palpatine after getting up and having him fly backwards into the chair upside down, funny stuff.[/spoiler] [spoiler] The one part that I did not like in the movie was in the final battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin, with Obi-Wan on that little hill thing with Anakin on the floating thing in the river of lava. It sounded so horrible when he said "you underestimate my power." The way he said power just made me go o_0. [/spoiler] The book is great as well. I enjoy the book much more because you are actually able to see how much more manipulation was done on Anakin by Palpatine. Sadly, that is the fault with movies. Only so much can be shown. A good deal was left out of the movie, that made its way into the book. The book allows you to see more of the conflict going on in Anakin. A very good read. Oh, and on a closing note. Siren, it seems that Jedi can "officially" sense deception/etc.. [i]Revenge of the Sith[/i] pg. 249 [spoiler]Your Jedi senses, Anakin. Your ability to [i]read evil intent[/i]. I have no doubt these Senators will put some virtuous facade on their plotting; with your help, we will pierce that veil and discover the truth.[/spoiler] Not EU, but part of the G-canon in your link in an earlier post, the [i]absolute[/i] canon. ^_^;;

[quote] How well does a mortal body respond to a lightsaber slicing into its jugular vein? Possessed or not, a flesh and blood being will be turned into a Pez Dispenser. If the LS Force Spirits were to possess a mortal, flesh and blood body and get struck down like Palpy did in the EU, they would die, too, Zeta. It doesn't indicate weakness on Palpatine's part (or weakness on the part of the Dark Side). It indicates weakness on the (body) parts of the hosts. The fact that Palpatine can keep doing it is testament to the EU portraying him (and Dark Side techniques) as more powerful than Light Side techniques.[/quote] By reading the Dark Empire comics where this is found, we are told that Palpatine has to hurry himself to a clone. Otherwise his spirit will fade away. When he comes back, he doesn?t become more powerful. He is exactly what he was when he did. But the Jedi are able to stay in their ghost form, not having to worry about finding a clone/what have you to continue on. Not only does this show the Dark Side?s weakness it the ability to keep him alive after death, it shows that the Light Side is not weaker. It shows that the Jedi can survive without the use of a body; taking away weakness Palpatine has of needing a body to just be able to survive. [quote] Do you remember your example of the Jedi standing on a hill, to inspire soldiers? Picture that Jedi on that hill, lightsaber ignited, ready for battle. Then picture that Jedi gets blind-sided by a Sith warrior. The Sith cuts the Jedi in half. What do you think that's going to do to the soldiers? They're not going to be so keen as to rush into battle, Zeta. They're going to be seriously freaked. Apply that idea to Vader, Palpatine, Tarkin, the Death Star, etc. Every major blow, be it personnel death, technology destroyed, etc., is going to have a negative effect on the morale and resolve of the troops. The Imperial Navy falling apart after the upper echelons of their command are disrupted is to be expected, because that?s what happens in militaristic societies, especially societies with the distribution of power and authority found in the Empire. Take Rome, Britain, Germany, USSR, for example. It?s just what happens. Again, someone in a position of power is killed, it has a negative impact on the grunt's psyche, so I don't see how the Empire falling apart after its entire commanding infrastructure collapses is indicative of one man inspiring the entire military through the Force. All it's indicative of is basic human psychology playing a rather significant role in war-time.[/quote] Using a single Jedi is different than using the Tarkin, Vader, Emperor, etc..The Empire had countless brilliant strategists in their Navy. If as you say their success was due to their leadership, they would have fallen back onto them. You see it in real life too. A higher ranking office is killed, the one below him assumes command. The Imperials do not do this. They immediately fall apart. There was more than just three powerful leaders of the Navy that could have easily went and squashed the still small Alliance. Yet they didn?t, despite their great skills you claim them to have. [quote] OT. Read between the lines. Study what Obi-Wan and Yoda say. Had there actually been a Dark Side blame, they would have said something about it in the OT.[/quote] Had there been no Dark Side to blame, they would have placed the blame entirely on themselves, which we do not see. [quote] I already took that into consideration. It?s just as easy for a ?normal? Senator to inspire fear. It?s not as if a Sith Lord was the only thing that would scare others. Sometimes you just need an image and a voice to keep others in line.[/quote] How on earth would they be afraid of a regular senator? Palpatine was able to instill fear because he told them what to do and how it would come out. Showing them his power. That is how they began to fear him. Because they know his powers. A regular Senator wouldn?t be able to show them a damn thing. Only way they could is hope that their plans work out in the end as they see fit. [quote] Well, if it were stronger, why would there be a need to balance the Force? If the Light Side is stronger, there wouldn?t be a problem. The Dark Side would be a minor annoyance, a bit of a hiccup, and easily defeated?and it?s not easily defeated. There?s a constant give-and-take, push-and-pull between the two sides of the Force. Read between the lines in the films. The Light Side and the Dark Side are even. The only difference is the Dark Side is faster to achieve, while the Light Side is slower to achieve, like Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back.[/quote] Just because it is stronger, doesn?t mean they will keep everything in balance. We are the most powerful country in the world, yet we do not keep the world at peace. We are not able to stop terrorists. Even though we are stronger than them we are not able to do so. [quote] If I'm wrong anyway, where's the harm in actually examining my analysis? We both know what balance means, don't we? What's the danger in you examining my analysis in the context of the films?[/quote] There is no harm. But the fact of the matter is we have proof from the creator himself who has said Anakin brings the Force into balance at the end of ROTJ. There is no need to examine it as all since we have a flat out answer right in front of us. [QUOTE]We?ve seen throughout the Trilogy that if Lucas wants an idea or concept to resonate, if he wants to stress the importance of a particular idea or concept, he will repeat it throughout the Saga.[/QUOTE] Why would he stress the importance of Anakin being the Chosen One, if he does not bring balance to the Force i n ROTJ? [quote] Later in your reply you mention the Force being unbalanced because a Sith rules the galaxy. Okay, so the Force isn't unbalanced from the Light/Dark duality, so neither the Light Side nor the Dark Side is stronger than the other.[/quote] Perhaps I didn?t fully get across what I was meaning to say, my apologies. The Force is unbalanced due to the fact that the Sith are present. Regardless of whether or not they are in control of the galaxy, the Force is unbalanced as long as they are around. Notice how after the deaths of Palpatine and Vader there are no longer any Sith. Just wannabe Sith. Hell you don?t even need the books for that. We hear from Yoda there are only ever two Sith. Master and Apprentice. By the OT this is Vader and Palpatine. With the death of both of them the Sith are no more. Bringing the Force into balance. No more Sith. Force is blalanced. [quote] Nowhere in the OT do Yoda or Obi-Wan attribute their clouded perceptions of the Prequels to the Dark Side. That is an important point to realize here, Zeta.[/quote] Nowhere do they say it is strictly their fault. It sounds as if Obi-Wan is even praising the Jedi when you see him and Luke in his house. The obviously do not put the blame entirely on themselves, otherwise they would have said so clearly. [quote] The Dark Side--rather, Palpatine, only has an opportunity because the Jedi fail. There is an opening only because the Jedi are incompetent. They are solely responsible for the fall of the Old Republic, for the Old Order, etc. Had they been doing their job from the start, disaster would have been averted long before the Trade Federation ever came into the picture. Think about it. Palpatine nabs some people because the Jedi are fools. Is that indicative of both being responsible for the disaster, or is that indicative of the Jedi sitting with their thumbs up their *****? The Jedi are the cause for the Fall...not Palpatine, not the Dark Side. The Jedi are.[/quote] Which is what I have been saying, lol. [quote] But, if they had had the proper teachings and fundamental beliefs that they were not all powerful, the Dark Side would not have gone unnoticed.[/quote] [quote] Had the Jedi not been lack in the ways of life and beliefs, the Dark Side would never have gained a foothold.[/quote] Their own failings prompted the Dark Side to take affect on them. Had this not done so, the Dark Side wouldn?t have bothered them in the slightest. They could have still be able to keep the Republic going if the Dark Side hadn?t come into the picture, even with their diminished abilities. The only reason why the Republic fell is because the Dark Side came into play. Had it not, the Jedi could have gotten away with the diminished abilities and kept the Republic together. It all boils down to the Dark Side taking control of the Republic itself, with Palpatine using it to manipulate things into his favor and bring about the destruction of the Jedi. We have seen countless times the Jedi and the Republic practically crumble, but not once has the Republic been completely destroyed, along with the Jedi. The Jedi way of life/leachings/beliefs/what have you have remained practically the same throughout their history, and yet all the other times they are brought to the brink of destruction the Republic still lives. But when the Dark Side specifically comes into play, only then does the Republic fall. So yes, the Dark Side is to blame just as much as the Jedi themselves. [quote] What is that passage there? It's gloating, it's a snide remark, it's conceited and self-absorbed. We heard the same attitude from Anakin throughout the Prequels. Light Side inclination you say? I doubt it.[/quote] Why wouldn?t he? Palpatine just said moments before that ?you like your father, are now mine.? And he kept calling him apprentice throughout that whole ordeal beforehand. Luke would have only become Palpatines apprentice if he had killed Vader. He did not. He proved that he would not be turned, and that Palpatine had failed. [quote] Where in that passage does he ever consider the well-being of his father? For that matter, where in the scene? He goes berserk, starts hacking away at Vader, and is about to kill him until he sees the mechanical hand. His father is not what stops him, nor does a consideration for his father. What stops him is purely self-interest, as shown by the mechanical hand.[/quote] Yes self-interest for him to live. Had he killed Vader he would have killed himself, by wiping away all vestiges of Luke Skywalker, just as Anakin did when he became Vader, in effect killing himself. Him choosing to not embrace the Dark Side is the choice he makes, which ultimately ends with him not killing his father. [quote] If both Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT demonstrate an understanding that their self-assurances and attitudes in the past are what blinded them, what evidence is there that Palpatine had to hide himself at all? The Jedi couldn't sense deception, but not because Palpatine was hiding himself. They couldn't sense deception because they themselves were limiting their own perceptions. They can't detect anything because they blind themselves. There were no external forces at work. The Jedi were the ones clouding their own judgments.[/quote] I am basing this off of events that are very similar in the EU. So it is entirely possible that I could be right, or you could possible be right. It is not contradicted by anything being said in the PT or in the OT. Where does Obi-Wan and Yoda strictly place everything on themselves? Where do they admit it was their own failings? Where does it say the Dark Side had no play in matters? I have yet to see them say ?it was our failings that led to the rise of the Empire.? The only thing we see close to the fact is Obi-Wan admitting that he thought he could train Anakin as good as Yoda had taught him. That doesn?t speak for the whole Order. [quote] What the EU has been doing in this argument is ?fill? ?gaps? that never existed to begin with. Head on over to fanfiction.net and you?ll find thousands upon thousands of ?EU? that authors don?t get paid for. There is no difference between Luke?s childhood on Tatooine as told by ForceChyk3053 and the same concept as told by Timothy Zahn, apart from writing quality. It?s still the same fundamental thing: sidestories.[/quote] Which is exactly what makes the difference. The EU is licensed and we are able to take it into account when talking about Star Wars. We can bring it in as much as we like Siren until it contradicts something in the movies. [quote]And if we go by strictly the movies, I'm correct? So that would mean that the movies imply differently than the EU does, which would mean the EU conflicts with what the films set-up, which means the EU is unreliable. If you view the films exclusively, and they clearly show one particular stance on particular issues, and then the EU comes along and gives a different stance on those same issues, the EU is not giving the same message as the films...meaning, the EU is unreliable.[/quote] But we do not have to go strictly by the movies. The movies and EU form an overall continuity, with the movies taking precedence only if the EU contradicts them. Which we have seen in a few places yes. But that doesn't mean all of the EU is unrealiable. Siren, the fact of the matter is this. We [i]can[/i] take the EU into account when discussing Star Wars. We can bring points from the EU into play when discussing things in the films. We can believe what is told to us in the EU. As the link that you provided pointed out, we can consider the EU canon until it contradicts things in the movie. And there have only been a few cases of that throughout the Enire EU. Regardless of how you view the EU, I can safely draw upon the EU when discussing matters until they contradict something in the films. And this is why we might as well just end this disucussion. You are unwilling to believe that the EU is canon, whereas I am. You wish to go directly by what the movies say/show, whereas I do not. I wish to take the EU into discussion, which is valid canon, but you do not. Neither of us are going to get anywhere.

[quote] Zeta, how is a Light Side Jedi Force Spirit and Palpatine's Dark Side Force Possession the same ability? They aren't. Not only can Palpatine assume an other-wordly form, but he one-ups the LS Force Spirit by being able to possess the living. His ability there is more powerful than the LS's, and it's established in the films that the Dark Side is not stronger than the Light Side. Again, see YODA in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.[/quote] How is the fact that Palpatine can die even as he does this, not a sign of being less powerful? The Jedi in ?ghost? form cannot die. Being truly immortal. But the fact that Palpatine can die only shows that the Dark Side is not more powerful than the Light Side, from the fact that he can still die. [quote] Okay...so if it isn't fact, just a theory, why treat it as canon with utter relevance to this discussion? And you do know that Tarkin is dead, that Vader is dead, that the second Death Star is destroyed, that the Imperial fleet is majorly decimated and scattered...shall I go on? Palpatine is dead, yes, but so is the powerhouse of the Empire (Vader, Tarkin, Death Star, the Executor, etc). Consider that the Empire crumbles because 80% of its heavy-hitters have been wiped out, not because of some EU text's supposition that Palpatine's Dark Side Battle Meditation went the way of the dinosaur when Palpatine did.[/quote] My reply here is going to cover this, and all your other points about the Imperial Navy/might, etc.. The loss of Tarkin wasn?t that big of a loss. Look at the amazing victory they had over the Rebels at Hoth, it obviously had no effect whatsoever. The Imperial might was still strong as ever. The loss of Palpatine and Vader would only strengthen their resolve to fight as well, no? You lose a leader/important person, you would think that they would also fight twice as hard and get revenge no? Even with them gone, the Imperial might was twice that of the Rebels. Had the Imperials had competent generals they would have been able to continue their fight. They are having the butts handed to them on a platter after the Emperors defeat, even with their impressive military might, that they still possessed even after the Emperors death. The size of the military didn?t help them. They had more great leaders than Tarkin, Palpatine, and Vader. Yet they still crumbled, even with their superior firepower, manpower, etc.. [quote] And what if the Dark Side wasn't to blame at all?[/quote] How is it not to blame at all? It doesn?t say/show this in the movies. [quote] You've got a corrupt Senate, corrupt government in general...so you're not going to be able to get people to hush-hush by bribing them, or granting them special immunities, benefits, etc etc? The corrupt state of the government would only facilitate the process, regardless of who was initiating it.[/quote] The whole of the Senate is not corrupt. We see this with the fact that Padme diehard pro-Senate, without corruption in her midst. Not all can be bribed. [quote] You know the beauty of holograms? You can play dress-up and act. You can disguise your appearance, disguise your voice, etc. The Trade Federation is corrupt and driven by greed, as well, keep in mind, so appealing to what drives them the most (i.e., wealth and power) is the name of the game. The Viceroys actually express worry in dealing with a Sith Lord. If they were dealing with a "normal" Senator, they might have been even more inclined to go along with it.[/quote] They expressed worry yes. But without a Sith Lord, they would have no assurances that their victory could be completely successfully. We all ready see Palpatine himself being surprised at events playing out. Imagine all the things that a lowly Senator would not know about happening. Things that would not play in his favor. Lets just say that a plain ole? Senator managed to get all the way through the Naboo blockaded, and ultimately failing. Would you honestly believe it would progress any farther? With Nute Gunray on trial he would immediately rat out his benefactor. He never did this with Sidious because he was [i]afraid[/i] of him. They would have no reason to be afraid of a lowly Senator. [quote] Since when is the Light Side stronger? The only difference between the Light and Dark path is the speed, as Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back: "Faster, more seductive."[/quote] Since when does it say it is not stronger? [quote] What's the definition of "balance," Zeta? And how is the ending to RotJ balanced? How is the Force balanced? Think about it analytically. "Balance" would entail a total even-ness in the Force...which there isn't. Luke's a more powerful Force user than Leia is, and he's Dark Side, and she's neutral. Vader/Anakin isn't as powerful as Palpatine, so there's not an equal loss there.[/quote] I do not care what you see the movie as Siren, plain and simple. Regardless of whether the clothes are still black or what not. I am taking Lucas? own words over your interpretations. If he says the Force is in brought into balance with Anakin killing Palpatine, then it is, regardless of what you interpret. His words take precedence over your interpretations. [quote] Do we see or hear anything in the OT, from either Obi-Wan or Yoda, that repeats "Dark Side clouds everything"?[/quote] Do we hear them say anything about midi-chlorines? No. Things that are said in the prequels don?t have to be said in the OT. I am also going to reply to your things after, without quoting them. Yes they have gone through a learning process. Yes they have realized that is was their own faults. Yes they realized that they have been played for fools. But, if they had had the proper teachings and fundamental beliefs that they were not all powerful, the Dark Side would not have gone unnoticed. They would have been able to sense it immediately. Their weakness allowed the Dark Side to ?overpower? what little the Jedi had. This still doesn?t imply that the Dark Side is stronger in anyway. The Jedi still have the ability to be stronger, to realize the truth of what was happening. But they didn?t. They were hell bent on believing that they were all powerful. Which is why the Dark Side had such a profound effect on their ability to use the Force. It is the fault of both sides here Siren. Had the Jedi not been lack in the ways of life and beliefs, the Dark Side would never have gained a foothold. But, the Dark Side did gain a foothold, clouding things and diminishing the Jedi?s ability to use the Force. [quote] I don't think you ever touched upon that, so I'd appreciate it if you could. If you can't recall what my above quote was a reply to, you were asking why Luke not killing his father wasn't a Light Side inclination. Thank you.[/quote] What would have happened if Luke at killed his father? Would he have literally killed himself? I think not. But would he have turned to the Dark Side if he did? Most definitely. He would have killed his father with hatred, fulfilling his destiny and joining Palpatine, aka the Dark Side. But the fact that he chose not to kill his father, proved he will not embrace the Dark Side. If he were Dark Side, he would have easily killed his father. But he doesn?t. He chooses to let this murderous, Dark Side monstrosity live. It is as much as self-survival as it is showing an inclination towards the Light Side. Killing Vader = Killing himself in the way that he would be the last of the Jedi and would join with the Sith, losing whatever identity he had beforehand. And the Force would remain unbalanced with the Sith ruling the galaxy, possibly for eternity. Not killing Vader = Luke beginning the throw off the Dark Side that has taken root into him, and starting on his path to the Light Side, ensuring the survival of the Jedi and his own survival. I am going to make clear on what I have been saying. I have been saying that the Dark Side has been able to cloud the Jedi?s judgment and ability to use the Force, due to the Jedi?s own failings. Both are at fault. I have been saying that the Jedi can sense deception, and that Palpatine has been ?hiding? himself from the Jedi (the Dark Side clouding everything). Where am I getting this? I am making conjectures based upon events in the EU that is very, very similar as to what is going on in the movies. I can do this safely because we [i]can[/i] take the EU into account. We can take it into account until we are shown otherwise by the movies themselves, the novelizations, etc.. But as of right now, none of what I have been saying has contradicted anything in the movie, meaning it is a valid conjecture, and one that makes sense too. But you are free to think the EU is bogus if you want. If you want to go strictly by what the movies are saying, you are correct. But I do not go by just the movies. As your link said, I can think of the EU as canon until the movies show otherwise, which is what I am doing. This all comes down to whether you wish to believe that the EU is fair game to bring into discussion. You obviously do not believe this, whilst I do. We might as well end this discussion here because it won?t get anywhere from either side of the argument.

[quote] But it isn't a combination of anything. Had the Jedi not been so arrogant, Palpatine would have never had the opportunity. It all still ultimately boils down to the Jedi being solely at fault here. Plus, there still is no concrete evidence you've raised from the films that would indicate beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Dark Side played a part in anything.[/quote] Show me where in the films that it discredits this. [quote] Read the script to Episode III. For that matter, pay close attention to the Post-Dooku Yoda and compare him to the Pre-Dooku Yoda. Distinct differences in approach and attitude. Yoda goes through a transformation after squaring off with Dooku. This explains why he is so much more humble in ESB, and so much more in-tune with the true nature of things post-NT. He realizes that he and the Jedi Council were wrong in the Prequels.[/quote] Even if I do get the time to read it fully, I will not take it into account in this discussion. Regardless of whether it seems legit to you, we do not know for a fact it is legit. [quote] And again, there's no indication at all in the films that there are little Palpatine clones running around. It's the same Emperor all the way through. All that EU Palpy Cloning material is doing is filling in a gap that was never there to begin with. And in the EU post-RotJ, as I've come to understand it, Palpy also has a Force Spirit of sorts, because he possesses various characters. Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I do recall various EU texts that echo ideas like The Exorcist, The Shining, and Amityville Horror. So, not only does Palpy (according to the EU) possess life-transfer abilities, he also possesses the Force Spirit ability of the Light Side Jedi (and an even more powerful Force Spirit than theirs, at that), which would mean the Dark Side is definitely more powerful, which is contradicted by what Yoda says in ESB.[/quote] How does it indicate the Dark Side is stronger? He has the same ability as the Jedi. Making them equal you could say. He just comes back into a living body, that is ultimately destroyed [i]every[/i] single time. He cans till be defeated, ultimately making him weaker, whereas a ?ghost? Jedi cannot. [quote] Yes, EU, when there's absolutely no indication at all in the films that Palpatine was powering the Imperial Navy with the Dark Side of the Force. The films indicate (i.e. SHOW, lol) that the Imperial Navy was so powerful because they had fantastic leadership, devastating weaponry, and unprecedented organization. Tarkin was a think-tank. Vader was a powerhouse. Palpatine was a brilliant commander-in-chief. The Imperial Navy steamrolled because they had the tools and the talent, simple as that.[/quote] 1) It isn?t a stated, absolute fact. It is a theory among characters in the EU, which I happen to believe. Look at how fast the Empire falls apart after his death. They are reduced to nothing. A small, insignificant Rebellion pushed them to a small chunk of the Outer Rim. 2) Again, show me evidence from the film that discredits this theory. You provided the link that said all EU is canon, unless it contradicts the movies. This doesn?t contradict anything in the movie. [quote] And why isn't it possible that Yoda knows of Dooku, and knows of his story? Yoda is on the Jedi Council, after all, and Dooku was once a Jedi who left the Order. It's not some huge secret that Dooku wasn't pleased with both the Old Republic and the Jedi Order. Why wouldn't Yoda & CO. try to keep tabs on what he's doing? It'd be common sense to keep an eye on him. After all, he is trying to organize a mini-Rebellion of sorts.[/quote] There have been twenty different Jedi that have left the Order. All to their own devices. (I myself am curious as to who they are.) They were unhappy with the Jedi Order as well. The corruption within the Republic has been going on for possibly decades. They could be unhappy with that as well. We know that Qui-Gon was also unhappy with the Republic, and defied the Council.. It isn?t a common occurrence as what some Jedi?s feelings are about the Republic and Jedi. They viewed Dooku as just another one of these men, who was just acting upon his feelings. This doesn?t mean he was automatically turned to the Dark Side. We know what their feelings about him are from what Ki-Adi Mundi (is it Mundi?) said about him being a political idealist, not a murder. Just because he is leading a movement, doesn?t me he is automatically Dark Side. [quote] Again, I'm referring to Empire Strikes Back, Zeta. Why would Yoda have discounted the idea that the Dark Side was stronger if it really was? You have been blaming the Dark Side for the Jedi inability to sense deception, for the Jedi inability to sense Palpatine, but you never seem to consider Yoda?s dialogue in Empire Strikes Back, where he clearly states that the Dark Side is not stronger. Yoda says this many years after Episode III, so he has had a nice chunk of time to reflect on what happened.[/quote] I have been blaming [b]both[/b] the Dark Side and the Jedi themselves. [quote] So you're saying that it would be utterly impossible for "normal" Senators to do what Palpatine was doing? Palpatine was a brilliant strategist. That had nothing to do with his being a Force user. Yes, "I have foreseen" is something we hear from Force users throughout the films, but it would be impossible for a "normal" Senator to not be able to predict things? It's not as if the Senate was some huge, complicated and twisted conundrum that defied all the laws and rules of human (and alien) behavior and desire. When you know how to manipulate people (even strictly non-Force techniques), you can get a lot of what you want. Manipulation and suggestion isn't some massive Dark Side technique, nor is political observation, nor is political maneuvering.[/quote] But would you actually think that one lowly Senator could pull off all the things that Palpatine did? The mere fact alone of a Senator even thinking of blockading a planet for his own devices would spread extremely fast in such a corrupt governmental system as that of the Republic. It wouldn?t have even gotten off the ground. Imagine if Palpatine himself had contacted the Neimoidians. The Trade Federation wouldn?t have even moved a ship if they knew it was just a Senator, and not some powerful Sith Lord. [quote] I wanted to isolate this one statement. If you were a JEDI MASTER, who believed yourself to be the pinnacle of Force wielders, who believed yourself to be able to see and know everything, who was so confident in your own abilities that you had begun elevating yourself above those around you...why would you not believe that some external force was to blame for your failures? Why wouldn't you blame yourself? I think the fact that the Council does ultimately blame themselves (various Jedi now and again in AOTC, Episode III; Yoda in ESB) is testament to how inaccurate their initial comments of the "Dark Side clouding everything" were.[/quote] Yoda also said that the Jedi were blind, if they failed to see the creation of the Clone Army. They obviously don?t give all the blame to the Dark Side. Neither do I, as I have said countless times. [quote] I've bolded an interesting sentence. That seems to be pretty clear evidence that Palpatine wasn't hiding himself. If Palpatine were shrouded so heavily in the Dark Side, Yoda wouldn't even have sent those glances his way. You've said how the Dark Side doesn't choose when/where/how/who/etc. it clouds (it just clouds everything, all the time), so if there are moments where Yoda and others catch whiffs of something unusual about Palpatine, isn't that evidence that there in fact isn't anything being clouded by Palpatine or the Dark Side? There are times where the Jedi Council has glimpses of something not being right with what?s going on, so if the Dark Side doesn?t choose what it clouds, it should be clouding everything, which would mean Yoda & CO. would never have any of those little glimpses?but they do. Is that a sign of the Dark Side or Palpatine clouding everything? Or is more a sign that there are no external forces at work? We only hear of the Dark Side clouding things from the Jedi Council themselves, and we have no reason to trust anything they say there, because Yoda does in fact negate the implications of the "Dark Side clouds everything" line from what he says in ESB. You keep asking me why everything can't just be clouded? Think of the simplest answer here: that nothing is being clouded.[/quote] No, it just shows that the Jedi are becoming aware themselves. Just like I have been saying, it is both the Dark Side, and the Jedi?s fault for them being oblivious to Palpatine. As the Jedi become more aware (stronger), they can see past the less powerful Dark Side. It is the fault of both parties, as I have said all along. It doesn't stop everything from being clouded. But as the Jedi become stonger, they can overcome the "cloudiness", because the Light Side is stronger than the Dark Side. It is still there of course, but since they are stronger than the Dark Side, it will not affect them as much or at all. [quote] So by "balanced," you mean a less-than-Gray/leaning-Dark Jedi and his Force Sensitive twin sister being the only two remaining Force Sensitives in the entire galaxy? The Force being balanced is an essentially Dark Side Jedi (Luke) and his barely Force-awakened sister (Leia)?[/quote] Hey man, if you are willing to take Lucas? own words from the films into account, but not what he specifically says about this instance, go for it. But it is his story. And if he says the Force is balanced, it is, regardless of what you are interpreting from the films. [quote] Where does it show it, then? There is no solid indication at all that Palpatine is hiding himself at all. We only have what we see happening in the films, and what the Jedi Council attribute things to, and...I'm less inclined to trust what the Jedi Council is saying, based on what I've been repeating ad nauseum regarding blame shifting and so forth (PLEASANTVILLE).[/quote] Where does it [b]show[/I] that he isn?t doing it? We know Jedi can do this. And by reading the prequel book to Episode III, you can draw the same conculsion. It doesn?t say he cannot do this in any of the films. [i]You[/i] are the one who posted the link that said all the EU is canon unless it contradicts something in the movies/movie novelizations/etc..So far, [i]none[/i] of the things I have been saying as contradicted anything said or shown in the films. Until the movies say that Jedi cannot sense deception, that Palpatine isn?t/cannot ?mask? himself from the Jedi, we can safely assume that they can.

[quote] The Council is so confident in their own abilities that they never entertain the idea that perhaps the failure to sense disturbances in the Force is not the workings of the Dark Side, instead a fundamental failure in their own personal approaches. "The Dark Side clouds everything" is a self-assurance more than anything else...a self-assurance that it's really not the Council's fault (when it really is, because all along, they were the ones ultimately limiting their own perceptions, just like Big Bob).[/quote] Which is why I said earlier that it is a combination of the Dark Side, and the Jedi?s own fault in their approach to their teachings/fundamental beliefs. You combine the two and you have the Jedi being blind. Not 100% their fault, but they do play a part in their own inability to sense Palpatine, which I have said before. [quote] You ask why Yoda was able to sense Dooku's Dark Side when he faced him in front of Anakin and Obi-Wan? He sensed the Dark Side because he finally opened his eyes.[/quote] If he had suddenly opened his eyes, you would think that he would have even opened them more afterwards and have been able to sense Palpatine, no? [quote] As I understand it, there are novels that deal specifically with ways Palpatine keeps himself alive through cloning and life transfer techniques exclusive to the Dark Side. With this technique, Palpatine can keep himself alive forever (and continue to wreak havoc in post-RotJ EU texts). But there is never any mention made of any Light Side powers/abilities of this magnitude in the films themselves, so Palpatine possessing these abilities would significantly tilt the strength of the Force in the Dark Side?s favor.[/quote] This is his way of returning to life. The parallel to this for the Jedi is their ability to come back as ?ghosts?. He comes back in the flesh. Jedi come back as a spirit, more powerful than they were before death. [quote] The same is said for his ?Battle Meditation? (the EU supposition of how the Imperial Navy was so powerful). The success and strength of the Imperial Navy, according to EU supposition, is largely in part due to Palpatine ?inspiring? the troops and boosting their abilities through Dark Side powers.[/quote] Bastila and her Battle Mediation in KOTOR. Jacen and his Battle Meditation in the NJO. It isn?t an exclusive power to the Dark Side. [quote] Luke hasn't caused any disturbance in the Force on Tatooine. He pilots a speeder incredibly well, but that's a minimal Force influence. Yoda is able to both feel and see Luke there, and Luke is as "blank" as Han is. Dooku is considerably more "Force active" than Luke was in ANH, and since Yoda in ESB has established that the Dark Side is in fact not stronger than the Light Side, which would effectively establish that the Dark Side was never truly clouding anything in the Prequels, that would mean Dooku was in fact neither hiding nor being hidden at all in the Prequels.[/quote] The fundamental difference here is that Yoda [i]knew[/i] the whole story behind Luke. He was informed of where he was hidden. And naturally he will have concentrated and focused on him, to watch over him. But, Yoda had no reason to be looking out for Dooku. He had no reason to reach out and search out Dooku. Because as far as Yoda and the Council were concerned, he was just a Jedi unhappy with the workings of the Republic. [quote] I?ve bolded the line I?m specifically focusing on. Please see my above comments regarding Yoda?s dialogue in ESB. You say we?ve seen EU inaccuracy before with The Thrawn Trilogy, so it?s very possible there?s more of it that?s also inaccurate. It?s not unheard of, after all.[/quote] I know, lol. I never said it was completely accurate. But what are you claiming that is inaccurate? The Jedi?s ability to sense deception? Palpatine?s ability to mask himself to the Jedi? Neither have been discounted from the movies yet. So we can safely believe that the Jedi can sense deception. And we can safely assume that Palpatine can be hiding himself from the Jedi. [quote] Zeta, entire systems allying themselves with the Separatists, immediately after the Trade Federation pulls the stunt they did, with a peculiar similarity between the Separatist allies? forces and the Trade Federation droid armies, all the while with Senators that just happen to start viciously bickering in the Senate, divided into essentially two major sides? Common sense would dictate something is going on here. Common sense would dictate that everything is just too timely to be purely coincidental. Common sense would dictate there?s some sinister political maneuvering going on. The Dark Side doesn?t factor in here. The Light Side doesn?t factor in here. The Force itself doesn?t even factor in here. Force presence doesn?t factor in here.[/quote] Would Palpatine have instigated his blockade of Naboo if he were Force blind? Highly unlikely. Would he have had a leader for a Seperatist faction were it not for the Force? No. Everything he does boils down to the Force. We see in TPM him say something along the lines of ?everything is going as I have foreseen.? Were he just a normal, everyday senator, it is highly unlikely he would have been able to instigate a blockade of Naboo and stay anonymous, or have a leader for a Seperatist movement, assuming he was even able to get that far. [quote] The Dark Side has absolutely nothing to do with the Jedi inability to figure out that those events weren?t coincidental, Zeta. You don?t need to use the Force by any stretch of the imagination to know that a pro-Republican columnist for the New York Times getting paid by the Bush administration to write his column is a conflict of interests and something that should raise eyebrows. Same thing applies here. You don?t need to use the Force at all to know something is happening behind the scenes when there?s that type of progression going on in a political arena. The Dark Side has nothing to do with that. It?s just incompetence when someone can?t see such a transparent political maneuver like that.[/quote] Why can?t it be attributed to the Dark Side clouding everything? Palpatine is right there in front of them. Why can?t this all be clouded together in a way that doesn?t seem sinister? But we can see that the Jedi do suspect something deeper is going on. They don?t know which Sith they have killed, master or apprentice. And without Sidious making himself visible to anyone, they have no way of finding out who they have killed. So for all they know, they could have killed the Master. A very big mistake on their part yes, but the Jedi are not 100% to blame as you make them out to be. We see Yoda taking suspicious glances towards Palpatine early on in AOTC. We see them start to investigate the matter full in AOTC. Civil wars are a common thing for all countries/peoples and there is no reason to assume this is any difference. They are seeing it as the galaxy just entering a Civil War, with nothing sinister behind it. [quote] You mean the act of self-preservation? It wasn?t Altruism, Zeta. It was an act focused purely on Luke himself, in an almost selfish fashion. Remember the mechanical hand? Luke kills Vader, he kills himself, just like we saw in the cave on Dagobah. And if he wanted to bring balance to the Force, he would have had to end the Jedi bloodline entirely, by killing Vader, Palpatine, and himself. That would have been a Light Side inclination, through self-sacrifice to bring peace to the greater good. But he doesn?t sacrifice himself, so what do we get at the end, for one of the final shots of the film? A family portrait, essentially, with Han in the center as the father figure and Luke, Leia & CO. off to the right, which is an unbalanced shot composition. The Force is all about balance and Luke has just unbalanced the entire thing, and lack of balance is what led to the chaos in the Prequels?so I don?t think the New Order has the hope that the EU texts give it.[/quote] The Force isn?t unbalanced. Anakin brought the Force into balance by killing Palpatine. Lucas himself has said this. So the Force is not unbalanced, but balanced. [quote] You've been asking in nearly every reply where in the films is something said. It's a film, Zeta. They're not going to be telling you everything about what's going on. It's one of the golden rules of cinema and screenwriting: Show don't tell.[/quote] Me: [i] The dark side is a powerful tool on Palpatine's side. He could easily block the creation of the Clone Army. But the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense the dark side in Palpatine is the fault of the Council themselves. They have been Sith free for 1000 years. They are ignorant of the fact that the Sith are still out there, and have let their teachings show. [/i] You: [i] The problem with your supposition that Palpatine might have been using the Dark Side of the Force to "block" the Council is that there's nothing in Episodes I and II, or in the script to Episode III, to indicate that. I can't recall one instance of anything being said that would relate to that.[/i] You are asking me where does it say that Palpatine can ?block? himself from the Council in the movie. It doesn?t specifically say it, just as some of the things you have been saying are not specifically said or shown in the movie. So that is why I am asking you where it says it in the movie. Though I guess I should have said ?where does it show/say in the movie.? My apologies if it came out as me looking for only dialogue.

[quote]Yes, Yoda is standing in the same room as Dooku, and Dooku is giving off DS energy. But that doesn't account for why Yoda & CO. can't sense Palpatine when he's Darth Sidious (Darth Sidious, by the way, in full Sith-ness...no pretenses, no covers. He's total Sith Lord there.). He's using the Dark Side to hide himself from the Jedi even when he's Darth Sidious? Even when he is the Dark Side he's able to hide himself? C'mon. He's fully immersed in the Dark Side of the Force there, and it's clear he's not trying to play the Senator for the Jedi.[/quote] Who says he cannot do this? Why not? We know the Dark Side clouds everything. The fact that he [i]is[/i] the Dark Side will cloud him only more. [quote]Furthermore, there are times in AOTC where Dooku is meeting with the other leaders of the Separatist alliance and there's no indication the Jedi can sense that. Dooku revels in the Dark Side in those scenes--the Jedi can't sense that--and it's not as if Dooku is hiding at all there.[/quote] Says who? Dooku can easily be hiding himself from the Jedi just as much as Palpatine is. But, there is only what, one meeting with the Seperatists where a Jedi is present? Obi-Wan is a powerful Jedi. He is able to sense a lowly centipede thingy about to kill Padme, yet he cannot sense Dooku? There is obviously something more going on. Dooku has no need to immerse himself in the Dark Side while meeting with the Seperatists, why should he? And again, the Dark Side does cloud everything. The whole planet of Geonosis, mixed with Dooku?s Dark Side energy, could easily have clouded Obi-Wans perceptions of what Dooku actually was. [quote] Is it Dark Side power clouding the Jedi sense when Dooku is meeting with the Genosians far away from the Council's chambers, or when Palpatine is Darth Sidious, far away from the Council's chambers...or is that failure on the Jedi's part more a testament to their inability to wield the Force (i.e., their complete incompetence)?[/quote] Why on earth can?t it be clouding everything? Yoda says it clouds [i]everything[/i]. But they have no reason to believe that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side. There have been other Masters that have left the Order and not turned to the Dark Side. They believed he was a simple former Jedi, not impressed with the workings of the Republic and was looking for change. Why would the Dark Side stop clouding everything just because they are far away from the Council Chambers? It chooses where it beings to cloud things or something? Is there a certain distance where it suddenly stops, and everything is clear? [quote] These are Jedi Masters here, and Obi-Wan can sense Alderaan's destruction in Hyperspace...but a Council of twelve Jedi Masters can't feel anything when a minor Sith Lord is meeting with a bunch of anarchists/revolutionaries? I'm sorry, but that is just incompetence. The Jedi are supposed to feel things through the Force, at whatever distance. A minor Sith Lord like Dooku is one of those things.[/quote] The destruction of Alderaan and Dooku are completely different things here. Obi-Wan was able to sense the destruction of Alderaan because billions of people suddenly just went up in smoked. A lowly meeting with Seperatists on Dooku?s part isn?t going to peek a Jedi?s senses. It isn?t going to set off a disturbance to alert them to something. How does Dooku meeting with the Seperatists create a disturbance in the Force? These are two completely different things here. The key thing here is that the Dark Side clouds everything. It doesn?t choose when/where/who/why. It clouds [i]everything[/i]. And where does it say that the can feel things through the Force at whatever distance? Sure they can feel intense rage/destruction/etc.. but picking out a single person who hasn?t caused a disturbance in the Force? [quote] I keep repeating the very real possibility of Lucas not reading the texts because you keep minimizing it, and I want to make it clear that it's something that needs consideration when evaluating EU texts for accuracy. Lucas doesn't have the time to read all of the EU material being written/produced, so he's getting second-hand accounts of it from assistants, interns, etc.[/quote] I know he doesn?t read everything. But what I do know is that all major things that will affect his creation go through him. He is asked if so and so is ok to kill/do etc?If it conflicts with his story, he doesn?t allow it. He didn?t allow them to kill off Luke, Han, or Leia in NJO. He wanted Anakin Solo killed in the NJO to ease confusion. I never said he reads the entire EU. All I have said is that he approves/disapproves things that may or may not conflict with his story. He isn?t going to allow something drastic to happen if it changes his story. We [i]can[/i] look to the EU for accuracy. We know he won?t allow major changes to occur to his story. And your link on canon only strengthens that we can take the EU into consideration. The first three form an overall continuity. Until something in the books is contradicted by a line/scene in the Star Wars movies, it is just as much free game as the movies themselves. Then we can say that whatever part of the EU is inaccurate/non-canon. We have seen this before with the original dates of the Clone Wars mentioned in [i]The Thrawn Trilogy[/i]. So it ultimately boils down to this. Until something in the movies directly contradicts what is said in the book(s) it is canon, and can be safely assumed so, regardless of whether or not Lucas doesn?t ready every single EU piece out there. [quote] What if I were to tell you that the Force has little to nothing to do with the political maneuvering seen in Episodes I and II? The Dark Side and the Force is used only to "shield" Palpatine from the Force Attunements (although it's more incompetent on the part of the Council). The Dark Side power has nothing to do with what Palpatine does in the Old Republic itself, in the Senate. What he does in the Senate is plain and simple old-fashioned political manipulation. No Force required.[/quote] We all ready know that the Jedi know that politicians are not to be trusted. But had they known the [i]true[/i] Palpatine, they would have acted no doubt. Slowly they began to realize things were happening for a reason. As they slowly see what is going on they begin to suspect that Palpatine is more than he is. He is a clever politcian yes. But he is also a powerful Dark Side user able to manipulate things to go his way. Who is to say that he isn?t manipulating certain events/people on the home front to get his way? Had he not been a powerful Sith Lord, he would not have blockaded Naboo, etc?Many, many things that Palpatine, the politician, did were results of him manipulating events in his favor with the help of the Dark Side. [quote] It's not coincidence that the Separatists want to secede from the Republic shortly after there's such dissention among the Senators, after it's obvious there's a Sith presence, after the Trade Federation's stunt on Naboo. The fact that there were battle droids in the Trade Federation's army and the Separatists ally themselves with the Techno Union? Maybe it's just me, but that's too big of a warning flag that there's something sneaky going on in the political arena to just chalk it up to simple coincidence. One doesn't even need Force Attunement to smell a rat there. Jedi can sense deception? I'm sure they can, what with that whole "missing the big, fricking, red, flashing light" thing there, lol. It's just a matter of reading between the lines.[/quote] This all once again comes down to the Dark Side clouding everything. [quote] If Luke is DS instead of LS, and has clearly been falling throughout the OT, why would he suddenly go on the incline post-RotJ, when he's clearly been in a downward spiral the entire time? If there's nothing in RotJ to suggest that he's remotely LS (and nothing in the OT to suggest he's got a LS inclination), what precedent do the EU novels have to set him on the gradual/ultimate path of LS? For that matter, what precedent is there to set the New Order on the path to the LS? Especially considering the founder is DS?[/quote] How does him choosing to not fully embrace the Dark Side and kill his father, [i]not[/i] show an inclination towards the Light Side?

Not going to quote everything, would make for a really long post, heh. Palpatine: You still haven't answered as to why Yoda is able to sense Dooku, a far inferior being who won't be reveling in the Dark Side as much as Sidious. The Council is competent enought to sense a less strong being than a stronger being? If anything the should have an easier time sensing Palpatine than sensing Dooku. Canon: Please do tell me where you are getting me saying Lucas is reading the texts. He is only contacted about very important plot points/developments/etc.. G-canon, S-canon, be it what it may. The key is it isn't canon if it contradicts something mentioned in the movies. So, we can safely believe that Palpatine does have the ability to mask himself from the Council's awareness. And we can also safely believe that the Jedi do have the ability to detect deception, etc.. If you can point me to where in the movies/movie novelisations/etc..that Palpatine masking himself from the Jedi and the Jedi's ability to detect deception is a contradiction to something mentioned in movies, please go ahead. Ending of ROTJ: Again, I have never said that ROTJ ended with Luke being good. I agree with you on the fact that he is leaning more towards Dark then Light. I [i]know[/i] his Order is shaky. Nowhere have I implied otherwise. He has members fall to the Dark Side, just like the Old Order. But the majority of his Order is progressing towards Light Side, you can clearly see it in the books, regardless of the fact that Luke wasn't completely light by the end of ROTJ.The fact that he is not completely Light Side means that he can still stray down the path he almost took in ROTJ. All I have said is that Luke's Order is based mostly on action. His Order takes up fighting roles much more often than the Old Order. And concerning this matter, all I have said is that Luke's Order would have jumped to action against the Vong much sooner than the Old Order one. We can deduce this through the Old Orders actions in the past concerning various conflicts. This doesn't imply that Lukes Order is perfect. It just shows one change in his orders teachings and beliefs on what their job is. Script: I haven't been able to read it all yet. I am working on some school readings at the momet. Barely even had time to start it sadly.

[quote] And you don't suppose that Dooku, clad in all black, standing over Obi-Wan and Anakin (who are badly beaten, mind) would tip Yoda off?[/quote] ?Powerful you have become Dooku. The Dark Side I sense in you.? His exact words. The keyword here is [i]sense[/i]. He doesn?t deduce the fact that Dooku is using the Dark Side. He senses it. He doesn?t say he has deduced the fact that Dooku is using the Dark Side. Going strickly by the movies, as you seem to like, you are saying something that is [i]not[/i] explicitly said in the movie. What is said explicitly is that he senses it within him. [quote] It's been established in the OT that a Jedi can feel a tremor in the Force from great distances. Obi-Wan can hear the screams of Alderaan. Luke could feel Vader at the end of ESB. Why aren't Yoda & CO. sensing Palpatine when he's Darth Sidious? He?s not playing the Senator anymore?he?s playing the overt Sith Lord.[/quote] Which is what I am asking you. If Palpatine is not hiding himself from the Jedi, then how exactly is he staying masked to their senses? 1) The destruction of Alderaan took place light years away from Obi-Wan. Yet he is still able to feel the tremor. Largely because of the massive loss of life of course. 2) Luke is able to feel Vader at the end of ESB, yes. A Padawan, with extremely little training from the strongest Jedi alive at the time, Yoda. 3) We have Vader saying in ANH that he ?has not felt a presence since.? He is, as you know, talking about Obi-Wan. Here we have three instances where we know that the Jedi are able to feel other Force users. Now what do you have in the prequels. We have a very powerful, quite possibly the strongest, Sith Lord to show his face in the GFFA. We have Jedi, a handful of them at any given time, seated across from him. And they are all oblivious as to Palpatine?s true identity. Why? We know that the Jedi are not as incompetent as you are making them out to believe, as we can see from your two of your own examples. Luke, a lowly Padawan; hell, not even one in my books, is able to sense Vader, who is someone as strong, if not stronger than Palpatine. But what do we have in the Prequels again? An extremely powerful Sith Lord that has masked his presence to every single Jedi. We know the Jedi are not as incompetent as you are making them out to be. If they were, Yoda would not have been able to sense Dooku, Luke would not have been able to sense Vader. You tell me how it is possible for the Jedi to not sense that Palpatine is just bursting at the seems with the Dark Side, without him masking himself from them. Recap. As has been shown, Yoda sensed the Dark Side in Dooku. You cannot say that Yoda deduced the fact from his clothes and that there were two Jedi laying on the ground, why? Because it is not explicitly stated in the film, just like how you said I cannot claim that Palpatine was hiding himself from the Jedi because it wasn?t stated in the film. Dooku is far inferior to Palpatine in Dark Side power, but is able to be sensed by Yoda.[i] Now you tell me, why can the Jedi not sense Palpatine when he is quite possibly the strongest Sith to show his face in the GFFA.[/i] [quote] I think the probability of Lucas not reading them is a major issue here, Zeta, and one that definitely warrants consideration. Lucas would know Star Wars better than anyone on his staff. If he's not reading the novels, and approving them, someone else is, and I certainly don't think it's wise to trust that other "someone" when it comes to something like EU...do you?[/quote] I still do not see this as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. All [i]major[/i] changes are approved by Lucas in some form or the other, whether it be by phone or mail. Ideas that would drastically change his universe would most likely come from him. As an example, it was Luca who said that Anakin Solo would die in [i]Star by Star[/i] when it was originally going to be Jacen. I highly doubt he would let things fly that would interfere with how he interpreted the story to be. You can find this in the CD that comes with [i]The Unifying Force[/i] if you wish to see the proof. [quote] Now, if this were Lucas' intent, surely he would be apprehensive to approve an EU novel (or allow an EU novel to be approved) that would contradict his original vision. He is very protective of the OT, after all. He made significant changes in the re-release, so he could keep his original vision intact. So if there are EU novels post-RotJ that feature Luke fully embracing the Dark Side, what does that say about the EU and how they're being produced?[/quote] I never said that Luke was completely Light Side at the end of ROTJ. So now, the fact that Luke fully embraces the Dark Side does not interfere with what Lucas? story. The fact that Luke embraces the Dark Side fully, or as completely as he can without being totally consumed by it, does not mean he had to have been redeemed in ROTJ. It just shows that even though he is progressing towards the Light Side from the end of ROTJ, that he is still susceptible to the tempting of the Dark Side, and can still take that path. [quote] But Luke is far from being a Light Side Jedi in the Finale of RotJ. He is still heavily bathed in shadow, a ghostly funeral pyre light, and still clad in the full black suit. If he?s clearly more dark than light, why would there be an inclination to Light Side at all? I find it to be very apparent that Luke isn't remotely close to "good" in those final scenes.[/quote] Regardless of whether or not he seems to be good or bad at the end of ROTJ, as the EU progresses we clearly see him heading towards the Light. How can we tell this? He doesn?t use his power to rule over others. He doesn?t use his powers to get his way. We see him doing, to the best of his ability, what the Jedi of old were doing, [i]protecting[/i] the people. There is inclination to the Light Side because Luke isn?t consumed by the Dark Side. He still has the ability to choose which path to take. Vader is practically [i]all[/i] dark, and yet strays farther and farther from it as time goes on. He may not be completely redeemed and turned Light, but he sure as hell was becoming [i]more[/i] light than dark. PS: You no longer have to e-mail me the script. It loaded up for me the other day. Very nice. J Thanks a lot.