Zeta

I myself download countless things. I have lots of songs. Dozens of movies. Do I think it is all right to do this? No. But like someone said earlier, when it is so easy to do it is hard to help oneself. But...not only do I download songs and movies, I also go out and buy them on DVD and CD. I do not download whole CDs. I download a few songs here and there to try them out, and go buy the CD. I have owned A Beautiful Mind for about 2 years. Just last week I went and downloaded it. *shrug* Does that still make me a thief? In my mind, no. But in some minds yes. I still give back to these artists/actors/ etc... There is not a single song on my computer that I do not own the CD to, nor a movie that I do not own. *shrug* Would I still get in trouble with whomever brings a lawsuit against me, even though I legally own the movie/CD? I am curious.

[QUOTE]In the Finale, he doesn't sense Dooku is a Sith...he just senses the Dark Side in him. The Force Lightning might have given it away, or the fact that Anakin's arm isn't connected to his body and both he and Obi-Wan are laying on the ground in exhausted, bloody messes, might have clued Yoda in.[/QUOTE] The fact of the matter is. Yoda says he senses the Dark Side in Dooku [i]before[/i] he uses the Force lightning. Regardless of whether or not he knows Dooku is a Sith at that point, Yoda is still able to sense the Dark Side in him. [QUOTE][b]But compared to Palpatine's, Dooku's Dark Side resonance (the effect his presence has on the Force) is miniscule.[/b] Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He's going to be resonating something no matter what he's doing. If he's as powerful and as heavily immersed in the Dark Side as we're led to believe, there would be traces of it that would be detectable on some level.[/QUOTE] Which is exactly why [i]something[/i] is being done to mask his prescence from Yoda and others. If they are able to sense it in Dooku who pales in comparison to Palpatine, they should be able to sense him. Yet they can't. Why can they sense the Force on Dooku, who as we have established is inferior to Palpatine by far, but they cannot sense Palpatine? It is more than just incompetence on the Councils part. I am going to considere the EU being canon until they are all labeled with the icon that the Infinities comics use. Regardless of whether or not Lucas reads them. Until they are specifically said not to be canon, I will consider to think of them as canon. [QUOTE]They act, yes, but they're not as...secure...as most peole think. What you read in the EU there is centered around the idea that Luke was redeemed at the end of RotJ. The New Order is based on the assumption/interpretation that Luke was a good guy at the end of RotJ. What I'm getting at is while the New Order is more than willing to pick-up a lightsaber before things fall to ****, there are other, far more important fundamental flaws in the EU material about the New Order, most notably regarding the authorial stance taken toward Luke's Force Alignment.[/QUOTE] Which is exactly what I was saying. Lukes order does act. I never said one thing about them being secure. All I was saying that compared to the Old Order, Lukes Order would have acted while the Old Order would have sat back and debated. But even so, we can see throughout the books that Luke's Order is light and not dark. Regardless of whether or not Luke is Light-side or neutral at the end of ROTJ, we see him progressing more towards the Light. With the exception of a few Jedi here and there, his Order helps the people of the New Republic. He may or may not be aligned to the Light-side of the Force at the end of ROTJ, but we see him progress more towards the Light-side as the NJO ends. Reading the books even supports your statement. We see countless times where Luke isn't completely aligned with the Light-side of the Force. We see him display characteristics that may lead him down to the Dark-side, and we have seen him [i]fully[/i] embrace the Dark-side. But ultimately we end the EU (as of now) with Luke and his Order embracing the Light-side, taking up the role the Old Order had of protecting the people of the New Republic.

I like the movie a lot for what it was, not for what it could have been. I was really excited over the fact that we were finally able to see the two of them duke it out. The story was pretty cool in my mind. The pyramid was awesome. I am a sucker for all things history, even if they are not real. The final battle was very cool in my mind. I liked how the Predator teamed up with the girl to face the larger threat. My only problem with the movie is that the Predator's are way to weak. Two out of the three are wiped out in a matter of 15 minutes. I just always pictured them being able to put up a much harder fight than what was shown. Now I haven't read the Alien vs. Predator books, so I don't know if that is what their fights usually are, so I could be wrong. I just felt the Predator's could have put up a much more effiecient fight.

[QUOTE] Zeta, you need to make the distinction here, and use language that effectively conveys what you want to say. The Jedi teachings have not waned. They haven't decreased...they haven't become minimized. They've stayed the same. The focus here is not on their teachings failing them...because the teachings were not the main reason that the Jedi Council/Old Order got decimated. I harp on this because it's a point you need to understand here. The Jedi's approach/attitude is what doomed the Old Order. There is a key difference between approach/attitude and teachings. If it were not for the Jedi's attitudes, the Old Order would have remained intact, because they would not have been so pretentious as to believe they were the pinnacle of the social order. Had their attitudes been different, they would have realized the need for massive changes in how they presided over the Order. The attitude was the bane of the Order...not their teachings. Not seeing the need for change is related to the attitude, not the teachings.[/QUOTE] Thank you. That has been what I have been trying to convey, but haven't done so successfully, as can be seen. [QUOTE]I am putting 2 and 2 together, and the Jedi Council are coming off as increasingly incompetent. We're talking about a SITH LORD sitting across from them, and they don't even get so much as a chill? I realize the power of the Dark Side, and Palpatine's power, is immense, but when they've got a Sith Lord right in front of them and they can't feel anything...I'm sorry, but I can't chalk that one up to uber-powerful Dark Siders. I chalk that failure up to an incompetent Jedi Council. I don't see how bringing in the OT is supposed to help your argument, because if anything, it's just further portraying the Old Order as hopelessly incompetent. I mean...on Dagobah, Luke feels the cave, and he's barely a Padawan at that point. If a Novice can be attuned to the Force enough to feel a coldness coming from a cave, and know enough to know that it's something entirely different than just usual swamp stuff...what excuse does a Jedi Master have for missing a Sith Lord? In fact, what excuse does an entire Council of Jedi Masters has? None, lol.[/QUOTE] Yes they are incompetent. But how can they be [i]that[/i] incompetent? We have to give them some credit as to being able to use their powers. I brought in the OT just to show examples that they can sense the dark side, etc...An excuse for a Jedi master not being able to sense a Sith Lord sitting right across from them, while Luke is able to sense the dark side in the cave? Easy. Palpatine is hiding himself. It makes perfect sense. There is no one/thing hiding the prescense of the Force in the cave. Yoda is able to sense the dark-side in the cave. How does that explain his not being able to sense Palpatine? Is he more attuned to the workings of the Force after he has been in hiding for so many years? I don't believe so. I believe he could have done the same thing back in the PT years. But he can't sense Palpatine, not because he is incompetent to the fullest degree, but because the Dark Side clouds everything, Palpatine concealing himself from their prescense. If they are that incompetent, Yoda would be oblivious to the fact that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side, but he isn't. Dooku isn't hiding himself from them. How do you explain that Yoda can sense Dooku is a Sith, while he cannot sense Palpatine? We are really going to be getting nowhere in this argument. I believe the EU is just as much canon as the movies, unless noted otherwise. There are many, many things not answered in the movies, which are answered in the books. [QUOTE]I think you are missing what I'm saying. From what I gather from your posts, you're pretty confident in Luke's New Order. You're more or less praising them, and I wanted to make it clear that I don't have the same confidence that you do, for mainly two reasons. (if more come to me, I'll edit them in...I've been up all night playing GuildWars, hehe)[/QUOTE] I am confident in their abilties to act on certain crises that appear throughout the books. We see them take action right away concerning the Vong, regardless of their Light or Dark stances. I am also confident in their changing the ways things are taught, and their basic ways of life; such as allowing marriage. I still don't see how this has to do with Luke being Light at the end of ROTJ. It is just me showing that Luke's Order acted in a time of crisis right off the bat, rather than wait for diplomatic processes to end as we have seen the Old Order do in the movies. I still don't understand what you are trying to get at here.

[QUOTE]I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say here. On one hand, you're defending the Council, because Palpatine could have used the Dark Side to cloud their cognition, but in the next sentence, you're criticizing the Council for never sensing Palpatine himself, and for believing the Sith to be eradicated. The problem with your supposition that Palpatine might have been using the Dark Side of the Force to "block" the Council is that there's nothing in Episodes I and II, or in the script to Episode III, to indicate that. I can't recall one instance of anything being said that would relate to that.[/QUOTE] Again, I am basing my opinions off of the EU, particularly [i]Labriynth of Evil[/i]. But it is also mostly common sense. We do know that the Jedi are able to sense Force users. Are in in an agreement about that at least? Yoda and the tree on Dagobah...Vader saying the Force is strong in Luke in the Death Star trench.... It is then logical to assume that they can do so as well in the PT. But they do not sense Palpatine, even with him sitting right across a table from them. Why? 1) We know that Palpatine is a powerful user of the Dark Side. With power such as his it would be hard pressed to miss when meditating, etc... 2) The Jedi's teachings have been waning. They have remain virtually the same for centuries. As you pointed out, they do not see the need for change. Teachings and ways of life that have failed throughout their time. Put two and two together. With the Jedi's teacing waning and the Jedi's inability to adapt tot he times, Palpatine will have a much easier chance in getting away with "cloaking" himself to them.[spoiler]In [i]Labriynth of Evil[/i] Yoda is meditating and suddenly feels Sidious on Coruscant. He just appears virtually out of no where.[/spoiler] He had to have been hiding his Force powers, it is what makes sense as to why the Council cannot realize he is a Sith. I don't believe that the Jedi were [i]that[/i] blind as to be 100% their own fault for failing to realize the truth behind Palpatine. [QUOTE]I seriously doubt that George Lucas himself has enough time to read some 50, 300-page novels each year. The most likely scenario is that his assistants are reading the works for him, then giving him synopses. That's how it works in Hollywood regarding script submissions, and I don't see why it'd be any different here. The only way for the EU to be actual canon (or remotely relevant or reliable) was if Lucas were to read every single novel, play every single game, read every single comic book, multiple times over to make sure all the material within is accurate and then approve them. I'm positive that's not happening.[/QUOTE] Well yeah. I don't think he would allow them to go against his own works. He has said it himself that Star Wars is [i]his[/i]. I don't think he would allow them to go against what he has set up, whether by adding things or taking away things. [QUOTE]Well, hold on a second...you're talking about an EU based on the end of RotJ, and based on an interpretation that Luke was Light Side...Luke wasn't Light Side. He was "neutral" at most. His "moment of truth" at the end of RotJ wasn't a reversal...he was merely drifting closer to neutral. It's the same thing with Vader. They're not instant character changes...it's always gradual, even Vader. He starts drifting away from Palpatine in the middle of Empire Strikes Back. It's not as if he suddenly turns in the Finale of RotJ. The EU material paints a much more rosy picture of the Finale than is really there.[/QUOTE] :animestun Huh? I'm not saying Luke is Light or Dark. I am just saying that he is changing the teachings and basic fundamentals of the Jedi of his Order. He has changed the teachings of the old by allowing marriage, and taking on older students. And I only compared the pace in which each Order would have handled the Vong threat. Unless I am completely missing what you are saying?

[QUOTE] *waves his hand in front of you* You don't need to play Star Wars Galaxies, nor pay the monthly fee. It's not the online RPG you're looking for. GuildWars...[/QUOTE] Nah man. I have always wanted to be [i]in[/i] the Star Wars universe. And this is the closest I am going to get. ^_^ [QUOTE] 1) They can't sense Darth Sidious, a Sith Lord. Incidentally, having a Sith Lord sitting next to you should do something to the Force. Even Vader is able to sense something as simple as Luke's thoughts in RotJ. The Jedi Council should have been able to detect Sidious. 2) They couldn't detect Palpatine's deception, even when he was sitting right in front of them. 3) They missed entirely the entire Clone Army development until Obi-Wan happened to stumble across it on Kamino.[/QUOTE] The dark side is a powerful tool on Palpatine's side. He could easily block the creation of the Clone Army. But the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense the dark side in Palpatine is the fault of the Council themselves. They have been Sith free for 1000 years. They are ignorant of the fact that the Sith are still out there, and have let their teachings show. I believe we have to take the EU into consideration in the Star Wars universe. It is a continuation of the Star Wars story. Books have to be approved beforehand. I don't believe that Lucas would approve something that isn't true. *shrug* This argument will keep going on because we both hvae different beliefs as to what we can bring in for proof and what can't. [QUOTE]You mean the gopher/bodyguard/escort quests they send him out on? lol "Protect Amidala" "Escort Amidala" "Go for that" Yes, they're really giving him assignments that enable him to shine, that give the impression they really value him as a Jedi, lol. They express their admiration to Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan is not Anakin.[/QUOTE] I cannot comment on this if we are leaving the EU out of this. I am referring to the acceptance he gains before AOTC. Books that include [i]Rogue Planet[/i] (where he shows dark side tendancies at a very young age, another reason to limit his choices), [i]Labyrinth of Evil[/i], being given command of Clone Troopers. [QUOTE]They refuse to budge any more than an inch for most of the films, so while the teachings are an issue, the personalities of the Council members are really what holds the Council (and the Jedi Order) back. It's an important distinction to understand: the teachings are simply that: teachings. They can be changed with the times, provided those in power understand the need for change...and the members of the Council largely do not understand the need for change.[/QUOTE] Thank you. I have been trying to say that but for some reason the words never were able to come out of my hands right, heh. I am going to just quote some of the things you have said Siren, in regards to my post which will once again be more towards Gavin. [QUOTE]He's open to the idea of emotion in his life; he welcomes love and affection.[/QUOTE] Luke has brought this mentality into his order as well, as seen by his marriage, Corrans marriage, and I am sure there are others, heh. [QUOTE] He's not afraid to take action when action needs to be taken.[/QUOTE] This was a big problem with the Old Jedi Order. We see countless instances where the Jedi do not act when actions should be taken. The hesitate in KOTOR to enter the Mandalorian Wars. And as Siren pointed out, they failed to take apporiate actions in regards to the events unfolding in front of them by the time of the Prequels. Back to the Vong and the Old Jedi Order. I still do not believe that they would have stood any more of a chance against them than Luke's Order did. The Old Order would not have immediatly taken steps into their own hands to protect the Republic. They would have been looking for diplomatic means to solve the problem which wouldn't have workd. They are hell-bent on their belief that they are not soldiers. By the time they did take up the role of soldiers, it would have been just as bad, if not worse than what Luke's order went through. Luke's order is bred for action. They have been taking action into their own hands to ensure the peoples, as well as their own, lives are safe. The Jedi were all ready acting on the threat before the New Republic officially acted on it. I believe that this was ultimatly the reason for the New Republic's success. *shrug* I just believe without a doubt that Luke's Order is the only order that could face the Vong and triumphant. P.S. Siren, would it be possible for you to e-mail the Episode III script as an attachment? The website refuses to load for me. :mad:

[QUOTE] Galaxies? Star Wars Galaxies? Gag me with a spoon, lol. How's it like these days, anyway? Any better than 1.5 years ago?[/QUOTE] Well it gets kind of boring at times because I do not like being so weak. But I am pushing myself to play so I can get stronger and master some professions so it can get fun, heh. [QUOTE]I more see that scene as Yoda mocking Obi-Wan. I mean, just look at what the scene is: Obi-Wan comes to Yoda with a problem. Obi-Wan can't solve the problem. Yoda clearly knows the answer, but instead has the young Jedi-in-training children solve it. What is Yoda saying by doing that? That Obi-Wan just got pwned by children..."Great Jedi, yes, but stumped by a mystery a child could solve." That's not his precise dialogue, but that's the implication of what he says.[/QUOTE] I am not too sure about this. I mean look at children today and with art. They draw what they see. As you progress in life and learn more you are caught up with everything having to be perfect, so you go back and erase constantly and get it or you don't. My art teacher always told us to "draw what we see, not what we know." I think it can be applied to this situation as well. As an adult, Obi-Wan is going to be thinking of ideas left and right. He has the knowledge to know countless possibilities for something happen. He isn't going to think of the most obvious answer, he is going to think of a complex one. It is the same with people nowadays. Lots of time people miss the answers/problems completely, even if it is staring them in the face. A child isn't going to be having a life?s worth of experience in him/her. They are going to see the easiest answer, the one that makes sense straight away to them. [QUOTE] What books? Not EU, I hope, because they aren't reliable. The Jedi-Deception part we mentioned earlier is testament to that.[/QUOTE] What do we know from the movies? The Jedi have the ability to influence the weak-minded. They can pull levitate objects. They can sometimes catch glimpses of the future. They can feel each other in the Force. They can sense your feelings and thoughts. They can sense the light side. They can sense the dark side. With all these abilities we know, we can make educated guesses as to what they can do. It isn't a far out idea that they can sense deception. [QUOTE]Instead of actually giving him an ear and a family, they turn him out into the cold, essentially. There are fleeting glimpses of compassion, but it's too little, too late. Mace and Yoda support him, okay, but they were too late there. They treated Anakin like **** pretty much all up until that point.[/QUOTE] Up until what point? ATOC? By the time of the movie there is much greater acceptance as to who he is and what is abilities can be. It obviously happens in his training before ATOC comes along. I agree with you. The Council is at fault. But they are not the only ones at fault. I also believe that if they had trained him differently the chances of him turning to the Dark Side would be less. But the Jedi of old has been following a teaching system that has been going on for thousands of years, without change as far as I am aware. Failings in their teachings. Changes needed to be done. And it became possible with the Old Jedi being practically wiped out, save a few. Any other time the Old Jedi Order collapsed there was the chance of change. But the ones that survived never looked to themselves as possibly being the cause of their own failings. And with Luke having very little training of the Old Order is now able to make those changes. (most of these two paragraphs are in regards to Gavin for our earlier debate) But I still do believe that some of the Councils actions are warranted. Anakin has show throughout the movies, not just the books that he is not ready to become what he truly wants. He is full of anger, as seen with the Tusken Raiders. He is overconfident in his own abilities. Just look at him when he fought Dooku. Had he listened to Obi-Wan the chances of victory would have been greater. He disobeys direct orders to remain on Naboo. There are reasons why the Council acts the way they do. All their actions are not unjustified.

Apologies for not replying sooner. Been caught up with Galaxies too much. ^_^;; [QUOTE]And Palpatine is Darth Sidious, so whether they're orders from Darth Sidious or Senator/Chancellor Palpatine is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that it's the same person giving the orders, and thereby any action taken to disrupt those orders, whether they be "Sithy" or "Senatorial" are in fact in conflict with one man and his objectives. He may present a different side of himself to different characters, yes, but like we've seen throughout the Saga, appearances can be deceiving--hell, they are deceiving, lol.[/QUOTE] Of course. But he isn't going to be using them disrupting his plans as Sidious to his advantage. He isn't going to come out and say "you interfered with my invasion of Naboo", or "You killed my apprentice Darth Maul." He cannot use them disrupting his plans to his advantage and tell the public they are doing so. [QUOTE]It's not so much as the Jedi being good and Sith being evil, or Sith being good and Jedi being evil, either. I've said it before and I'll say it again...the Saga is all about point of view. I read the script to Episode III last night, and while the scene's writing for that idea isn't as solid as Obi-Wan in RotJ, "point of view" is definitely one of the major themes in the Saga, so it's unfair (to the films themselves and to Lucas) to categorize Sith=evil and Jedi=good, because it's not black and white. The films aren't that simple.[/QUOTE] Could you provide me with a link to the script? :D [QUOTE]Does Yoda believe Obi-Wan, though? He brings him the report of Kamino, and the location, but is perplexed why he can't find it. Yoda actually mocks him for it ("Lost a planet, Obi-Wan has"), then turns to the children for an answer to Obi-Wan's question. I don't think Yoda exactly welcomes him with open arms. It's more condescending and mocking than anything else. I'd have to watch Episode II again, but I seem to recall Obi-Wan informing Mace and Yoda about the Clone Army through a hologram when he's on Kamino.[/QUOTE] I just saw Yoda there trying to humor the Jedi children. *shrug* Yes he does inform them about the Clone Army. But they do not believe he is wrong or lying in any way. They believe him. And admit it themselves that they are blind as to the creation of it. [QUOTE] Since we're talking about the Jedi Council's supposed "effectiveness," I think it's worth mentioning that one of the major reasons Anakin falls is because the Council doesn't respect him enough to treat him like an ally (this is explained more fully in Episode III). He is given consideration, yes, but he wants more than just being second-string. He has the power to lead, to lead the Jedi to victory, and the Council shuns him. They squander an incredible opportunity by minimizing Anakin's potential.[/QUOTE] I myself think they had reason to limit [i]some[/i] privileges granted to him. I mean, look at what he did to the Tusken Raiders in AOTC. Pure anger there. Not something the Jedi want. He disobeys orders to remain on Naboo beforehand. He doubts Obi-Wan's abilities. He is headstrong, arrogant, and angry. Throughout the books we see Anakin portraying the traits that a Jedi is not supposed to, and this is why they held him back. [spoiler] I mean look at the Jedi Council scene in the trailer. Where Mace says you are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master. I think they were justified with this judgment. Anakin didn't prove/earn his seat on the Council. Palpatine appointed him there. Just because he is on the Council, doesn't mean he is to become a Master. I completely agree with the Council's judgment.[/spoiler]

[QUOTE] Zeta, I've bolded the statement here. And that's the thing, because the Jedi don't have that kind of sense, and never display it throughout the films (incidentally, I don't really regard much of the EU as entirely relevant to begin with, and I've explained why in the past--actually, in this thread, lol).[/QUOTE] Well this is where we differ. I do consider the EU relevant. *shrug* I hope that since the training that can now take place afresh, the Jedi will be able to sense the deception. It has been seen, in the EU at least, that the Jedi can tell if a person is deceiving them. The fact that it is only a small body rather than a large one such as the Senate will make it easier for the Jedi to detect any sort of deception on the new Council. [QUOTE]Now, you ask where we see the Jedi "picking a fight" with Palpatine, getting in the way of his goals, undermining his policies? How about throughout the films? Trade Federation, Darth Maul, Anakin's training (particularly Anakin's training), etc.[/QUOTE] Trade Federation? Are you talking about when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go on their diplomatic mission? That was for Valorum, not Palpatine. They interrupted, if only a little, a plan set in motion by a Dark Lord of the Sith. Getting in the way of the Sith's goals of ruling the galaxy with an iron fist definitely. If that isn't what you meant, then do explain. Darth Maul? A Sith apprentice. Naturally they would fight with him to get him out of the picture. It has been seen throughout the Star Wars universe that the Sith do evil things. Naturally they would once again try to thrawt a Sith's plan. Hell, Palpatine still got away with it. Mace and Yoda were skeptical at first about the return of the Sith. A failure with the Old Jedi Order's way of teaching perhaps? To actually believe that the Sith were completely gone? Again, if I am misinterpreting what you are saying, please explain. At first Mace and Yoda were against the training of Anakin. Then they are for it. Mace practically does a complete 180 by the time of AOTC. Referring to him in high regards concerning the prophecy, etc..and doesn't show any resentment against training him. Palpatine has no control of Anakin's training. It is the Obi-Wan and the Council's choice alone as to how they train him. Sure he can recommend him for missions concerning various things, but he has little control of his training. The only mission (outside of the EU that is) so far that Palpatine even recommends him for is guarding Padme with Obi-Wan. It was the Council's decision to send him to Naboo with her, even though Obi-Wan didn't agree. He has no control over Anakin's training. Though he does have control in putting him in situations where Anakin can and will be tempted by the Dark Side. And as far as I have been able to grasp from the books and movies, Anakin wasn't originally part of his plans anyways. Had his original plot gone through in TPM (with the Queen not escaping, etc...) Anakin would still be on Tatooine. Most of their interfering with his goals are them interfering with the plans of a Sith. They are not interfering with Palpatine's directives, orders, etc...as the Supreme Chancellor. But what they are interfering with are his plans as a Dark Lord of the Sith. We have seen in the movies, the books, comics, games, throughout the whole universe that the Sith don't use their power for good. So naturally they are going to be interfering with the Sith Lord's plans, they just do not know he is Palpatine in disguise. Unless of course you do not believe that the Sith are bad and Jedi good. *shrug* Palpatine's plans are not for the good of the people. They are for him to seize absolute power over the entire galaxy. They look all nice and sweet on top. But each law passed in the senate, directive passed, what have you, it only increases Palpatine's power to rule the galaxy as he sees fit. If I misinterpreted any of your ways of them undermining Palpatine's, the Supreme Chancellor, orders, please explain. I see them interfering with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, not Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. And as things start to become clearer to them, they begin to question his true motives. *shrug* EDIT: My apologies, I completely forgot the last section of your post. >_> [QUOTE]That's what I was referring to. It's not a matter of thinking Obi-Wan was lying; it's more a matter of Jedi being arrogant to the point of blindness.[/QUOTE] That doesn't say anything about the Clones. One Jedi refusing to believe that the system exists doesn't speak for the whole. The Clones were not even in any of the Jedi's minds at that moment, they had no inkling. It shows that this one Jedi doesn't believe that the system is in existant because she believes the Archives to be complete. It doesn't show that the Jedi failed to believe Obi-Wan about a Clone army being built. When he informs Yoda, Mace, etc.. about the existance of the Clone Army, they do not deny it. They accept it. And admit their failing in seeing the creation of it. [QUOTE]Again, they don't act on it, simply because Dooku has joined the Dark Side. They more or less ignore that particular problem (someone is controlling the Senate) and then it's going to swim up and bite them in the ***, to borrow a quote from Jaws.[/QUOTE] They obviously don't disregard what he says. The fact that the are keeping an eye on the Senate shows action on their part. Not a lot of action, but action nonetheless. They didn't act on it fully because they had no clue [i]how[/i] Sidious could have control of the Senate. He could be the Supreme Chancellor. He could be a background guy who just has people in the Senate under his control. It all goes back to the fact that they were not able to see any of the events unfolding. They weren't able to see the Clones being created. They weren't able to tell that Palpatine was a Sith, even with him right across from them. Imagine the conflicts that would arise had they informed anyone that their powers have diminished? Chaos I am sure. The powerful Jedi. Not even able to see a Dark Lord of the Sith right across the table from them. A failing in their teachings in my book. *shrug*

Again, this was all personal opinion. I do believe that the Jedi would have enough sense to realise if someone/a few in a small council has less than honest motives. I also believe that the Jedi played a part with the fall of the Republic. I believe that their teachings hindered their ability to effectivly keep an eye out for things, things that could have been prevented or not. It is obvious there is a failing of their teachings if a Dark Lord of the Sith can be running the Republic. Even with them across the table from each other. [QUOTE]Instead of working with the system that Palpatine is developing, they fight it...they want to destroy it.[/QUOTE] What are they destroying? Where? They are doing exactly as Palpatine is ordering them. In the [i]Cestus Deception[/i] Obi-Wan realizes that his mission he was sent on had a motive he didn't agree with. Yet he still continued with his mission. Where exactly are they fighting it? The books I have read they are doing what is asked of them, even if they do not personally agree with it. Jedi are not warriors. They said this to Palpatine himself. Yet they lead his armies. You still haven't answered my question of where they are trying to disobey his orders and undermine his policies? I myself thought that the Council accepted Obi-Wan's transmission of the Clone Army. Where do they deny it and shrug it off? Yoda admits it himself that they failed to see the creation. Why would they see Obi-Wan as lieing?

[QUOTE] I'd like to point out that in 10,000 years [possibly more] the Jedi have only ever been at the brink of destruction three times. The Reborn Emperor, Brakiss and his Shadow Academy, Joruus C'baoth, Kun's disembodied spirit, the villains from the Jedi Knight series. No offence Zeta, but they don't hold a candle to the Sith and Dark Jedi faced by the Old Order, I mean guys like the Sith Lords of Korriban [Naga Sadow, Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos], The Danthomir Night Sisters, Revan and Malak, Darths Nihilus, Sion and Traya, Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma, the thousands of Dark Jedi and Sith from the Jedi Civil War [after Revan and Malak], and the Sith Wars [Kun and Qel Droma]. Heck you could even count in Palpatine there because he was killed by Anakin and Anakin is a Jedi of the Old Order. As many Dark Jedi and Sith [many of them Skywalker?s failed students] as the New Jedi Order have faced, none of them even come close to the power of the Old Sith.[/QUOTE] Oh I know. I was just throwing out examples of things that these "lesser" Jedi have faced and have come out on top, without being reduced to less than a handful of Jedi. Boath and the lot are strong nonetheless, though not as strong as past Sith. The Jedi of the New Order are strong in their own ways, fought, and were able to come out on top without severly-depleted numbers. [QUOTE] That is particularly asinine, because corrupt Senators are what butchered much of the Old Republic in the first place.[/QUOTE] The rest of that section explains the reasoning behind that sentence. In a small council you can be as corrupt as you like. If the Jedi and others don?t agree with what he/she is saying, they obviously won't do anything about it. It would be able to be controlled on a small council. What directives were the Jedi undermining of Palpatines? I know there are instances where the Jedi would go on missions without informing him. They also had good reason to. They were beginning to suspect that Palpatine had some less than honest motives going. They were beginning to question some of his motives yes, but from what I have been reading they are still doing what he asks of them. What things do they undermine/disobey?

[QUOTE]Actually if we're counting the entire Expanded Universe, then you'd have to include the splitting of the Order because of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma.[spoiler] And from the KOTOR series you'd also have to take into account that in KOTOR 2 it's revealed the entire Jedi Order [bar about five individuals, three of whom later die] has been wiped out.[/spoiler] [/QUOTE] Exactly. Look at how many times the Old Order has crumbled. Yes they are able to bring themselves back from near defeat, but when they get to the height of their power, they crumble yet again. It has been seen throughout the Star Wars Universe. They are brought to their knees by the Sith/Dark Jedi. Now look at Luke's Order. How many Dark Jedi have they been through and still survived? The reborn Emperor. The Shadow Academy. C'Boath. Exar Kun's ghost. And others. And yet they are still standing, even with their very limited numbers of Jedi. They have always come out on top, with a majority of it's members still alive and breathing. It isn't the Sith/Dark Jedi that brings Luke's Order to its knees. It is the Vong. A race outside of the Force. It takes that to cripple his Order. I myself doubt that the Old Order's way of teaching would have been able to face up against the Vong. [QUOTE]He trained adults and older children because it was easier than simply training infants, and because he could send them out into the galaxy faster.[/QUOTE] Which is [i]exactly[/i] what the New Republic needed at the time. He therefore molded his teachings to coincide with the times. The Jedi of old could have done this themselves. But they chose not to. Even after all the times their own Order crumbled. [QUOTE]No I disagree with that completely, normal people on the Council fair enough, your average person who goes through life with a normal job and responsibilities. But not bloody Senators, Senators are often more interested in what's of benefit to them rather than what's of benefit to the people.[/QUOTE] You are exactly right. I was going to put more emphasis on the "others" part of my original post, but forgot. The Senators would be left to their own devices with the Senate and all the blather they do. This is how I pictured it. The people would pick who they want on the Council. Lets just say a vote. From somone outside of the political structure. They would then be placed on the council. Hell, the Senators themselves can still be placed on the council, even if they are/become corrupt. . If the Jedi and the rest do not agree with what he/she is proposing in the council, they will not do it. Corruption in a small council can be handled it. But with corruption on the scale in the Senate of the PT, it cannot. [QUOTE]I mean I don't know how they would have gotten in touch more with the public as they just didn't go on state visits anywhere[/QUOTE] Which only strengtenthed the peoples belief that the Jedi were underming them. You don't even have to read any of the Clone Wars books to tell public opinion is changing towards Jedi. The people buy into Palpatines blather about the Jedi being the evil ones. He uses the Jedi ways and makes it seem they are undermining his and their authority. How else could he convince the people the Jedi are bad? He can't just go on the 'Net and say "The Jedi are bad" and have everyone believe him. But yes, it is just a matter of personal opinion and which you like more, which is mor effective, etc..

I never said he would return to the true path. I said he would be free to teach things his way. With the Old ways irradicated, or as close as possible to being so, he has the choice on how to teach his own pupils. lol. I never said he would return to the true path. EDIT: Noticed that my post wasn't very constructive.... so here are a few things. Keep in mind this is all personal opinion. [QUOTE]I mean Luke has lost more students in 30 years than the Order lost in the previous 300; he trains people of any age to be Jedi [committing the mistake which destroyed the Order before][/QUOTE] Of course, look at the times. The Jedi have been practically destroyed. They are in a galaxy that has just went through the Clone Wars, and then through the Rebellion. Both of which left what, a handful of Jedi knights across the whole galaxy? Luke is a learner himself throughout the Expanded Universe. Luke basically taught himself the ways of the Jedi. I always looked at it, as he was just one step ahead of his students; sort of like what is said in Band of Brothers with how the parachute infantry trainers were one step ahead of the troops, since the parachute infantry was new. The same can be applied to this situation. Luke is learning while he teaches. So naturally he isn't going to be the [i]best[/i] of teachers. He molded his teachings to coincide with the changing times in the New Republic, rather than following the time previous of the Old Republic. That is one reason why he doesn't just train young children. But again, look at the times. The galaxy is not a peaceful place. The New Republic needs Jedi. Imagine if Luke took on an apprentice of around five years old when he was lets say early/late thirties. And lets say he does a rush job of teaching him so that his apprentice can take on his own, lets put that at ten years. Just look at all the material in the Expanded Universe that would be with only one Jedi Master and one Padawan. They needed Jedi out there fast, or as fast as they could muster. And there would only be a handful of Jedi around at the time of the NJO. And again, this is his Order. The old Order has been wiped from existence. This is how he is going to run his Order. This is the way it has to be if the Jedi are to once more be the Protectors of Peace and Justice for the New Republic. [QUOTE]He also broke the bloody Cardinal Rule of the Jedi in getting married, and spawned a son, and he's not even the only one in his so called "Order" that's done that. I mean if any other Jedi from the Old Republic had survived past ROTJ other than Vergere, I think Luke might have been properly tutored a bit. [/QUOTE] Again, this is the [i]New[/i] Jedi Order. You can't compare it to that of the Old. These are completely different times. Changes have to be made for success. The teachings of the Old Order are what caused it to fall, in my mind. *shrug* [QUOTE]And his absolute worst insult to the Order was allowing non-Jedi on the Council, that is just unacceptable[/QUOTE] I myself felt that to be a great idea. Once again I bring up this is the New Jedi Order, not the Old. Look at the alienation that will be going on in Episode III between the people and the Jedi. Palpatine will be able to use the Jedi's flaws against them and turn the people of the Republic against them. I have read good deal of Clone War books that say the people are beginning to think the Jedi are taking things into their own hands and undermining the will of the Senate. Why? It is a pure Jedi council. There are no senators/others on the council to give their input on matters and keep the people informed. The Jedi of Old alienated themselves from the people they were meant to protect. With Luke's Jedi Council, the people can actually have a say in matters. Now they will actually be serving those they are meant to protect.

Of course. But we all ready know that Qui-Gon doesn't follow the Councils orders. Obi-Wan himself says it. And in [i]Labryith of Evil[/i] we are told that [spoiler] Qui-Gon, Dooku, and Sifo-Dyas share similar views of what is going on with the Republic and the Jedi nowadays[/spoiler]So we are able to make an educated guess, rather than just a guess, that he could side with Dooku. My post before was only an "if" theory. I do believe that whether Qui-Gon died or not, Anakin would still fall to the dark side. But that is just what I believe. I believe that he must turn to the Dark Side before he can fulfill the prophecy.The old ways of the Jedi were going out of whack, and the only way to change that is to completely irradicate it, or get as close as doing it. This way some old teachings survive, but it is ultimately left for Luke to decide how to train youngn's.*shrug*

The book ruins nothing about the movie. It just leads right into the movie. Though...I guess the ending does take away [i]some[/i] impact of the beginning of the movie, it doesn't for anything else. I don't know if Anakin would have still fallen in love with Padme had it been Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon. But I still believe that things would turn out in favor of Sidious. If what Dooku said is true in ATOC, that Qui-Gon would have followed him, I believe that Anakin would follow Qui-Gon in turn. We can see throughout the movies and books that Anakin is being influenced by those around him greatly. With Qui-Gon being the father he never had rather than Obi-Wan, I believe he would lay his life down with Qui-Gon rather than the Jedi order. Then with Sidious of course leading Dooku, who would be leading Qui-Gon, who would be leading Anakin, I think everything would turn out the same in the end. It would be possible for Obi-Wan to follow as well. I believe his resistance to joining Dooku in AOTC was due completely to the fact that Qui-Gon was killed. Had Qui-Gon not been killed, and he would in fact follow Dooku, Obi-Wan would be hearing about the failings of the Republic from him, rather than being fed that the Republic is right from other masters and Palpatine.

Everything is canon unless it specifically says it isn't, such as the Infiniti comic books. I'm sure there are others, but those are all that I am aware of that are not canon. I just finished [i]Labyrinth of Evil[/i] by James Luceno. I suggest everyone who wants to know what happens immediately before ROTS to go pick this book up right now. A book with plenty of action and suspense, wow. It covers the search for Darth Sidious. Answers questions that arose in TPM and AOTC. Here are just a few things that go on, highlights that I really enjoyed. [spoiler] It seems that Sifo-Dyas actually [i]did[/i] order the Clone Army. It wasnt Dooku pretending, or Sidious, or anyone else but himself. It seems that he saw the upcoming problems that would face the Republic. Not the Clone Wars themselves, but he saw something and recognized the failings of the Republic around the time after TPM. He then proceeded to order the Clones and is then killed by Dooku. I am sure, like many, many things going on in GFFA, that it was orchestrated by Sidious.[/spoiler] [spoiler] Sidious is found! Yes that is right. Starting with the mechano-chair that Nute Gunray is riding in TPM, Obi-Wan and Anakin find a recording of Sidious. By following the makes of the chair, they eventually find out that Sidious is on Coruscant. Mace, some other Jedi, some intelligence people, and Clones begin to search The Works, the place that Dooku lands at the end of ATOC, for Sidious. The Seperatists attack Coruscant and are lead by Greivous, while Yoda meditates and feels Sidious on Coruscant. The Jedi leave the search while the Clones and the intelligence people continue their search and find Sidious. All are killed naturally. But the intelligence director is alive long enough recognized that Sidious had penetrated the highest levels of the Republic, aka Palpatine. Palpatine is captured by the Seperatists, and it ends there, which immediatly leads into the Start of ROTS with the space battle. [/spoiler] [spoiler]You can clearly see the power of Anakin begin to grow fast, as well as his fall to the dark side progress. There is a part where Anakin and Obi-Wan are on their way to fight Dooku, but it is just a trap. And Anakin gets angry and just yells Dooku!, which causes the whole building to collapse on all three of them. Very cool.[/spoiler]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']I guess it depends on where you live as to the legality of suicide. But I'd say that the only reason they take people into custody is to try and stop them from committing it again. Have you ever heard of someone being sent to jail for attempted suicide? They send them to re-habilitation. To protect them, not as punishment.[/size][/quote] Well in others eyes it is protecting them, but in their own it is punishment for letting them live. *shrug* That is how I always looked at it and the legality of the issue as a whole. But hey. I find school a punishment when they just want to educate me. *shrug* I guess it is like Obi-Wan and various others have said "from a certain point of view." Onto the funeral ordeal...I stopped following what exactly was happening after her death, so am not update on this portion. But what are they battling about now? Does one want a funeral and burial? cremation? I'll look it up when I get some free time. If they both just want burial, how hard would it be for them to just co-operate and compromise? They would both want the same thing and I don't see how different their wants in the matter could be. If it is the other way around, I'm sure a compromise could be reached to some degree. *shrug*

With the Day coming ever nearer, I felt the need to bring back this topic. What does everyone think of the trailer? Not the teaser, but [i]the[/i] trailer. I myself find it great. I watch it at least once a day. For anyone who hasn't seen it, visit the official site now. I am curious as to what OBers think of Palpatine's age? How old do ya'll think he is? I'll post what I think in a bit, bit busy right now. ^_^;;

Azure, I asked him if he had a sound card. Why? Because I was having the exact same problem just last week, and when I updated my drivers, everything was okeyday.;) And another example of a sound card problem was when I was having fan problems and random restarts. I removed my sound card and viola, problem solved. Had to buy a new one because of that though -_- It is always smart to explore all possibilties when there are problems with computers. I myself am still going with the sound card possibility, assuming of course he has one. I am not knowledgable with onboard sound. If that is the case I suggest you run spyware/adware/virus scan, and if the problem persists post on some computer tech forums, specifically the website of the computer provider if it is a Dell, Compaq, etc..

[QUOTE]When comparing today's copies to the first copies made, the text slightly differs because vowel markings have been added to make it easier to read and to get the final vowel markings of nouns correct. This does not however, change what the words say, simply remind you how to read them.[/QUOTE] I believe that someone said something of this sort concerning the Bible and the Torah earlier in the thread. Retribution I believe it was said things were changed so they could be easily understood. But the message the words convey is the same. That is what you just as well. So how is the Bible and Torah changed? But what you fail to realize is that they [i]can[/i] find out things such as barriers between the seas, and many other things. People back then were very, very educated for their times. If they can find out the circumfrence of the Earth by shadows and angles, I can be my bottom dollar they could do testing on the waters to find out that [i]something[/i] was there. I do not see why you say they have no ways of knowing such complex things. Many, many complex things of today were found out in the ancient times, and have just been expanded on. They were not idiots.

Coming from your speakers? I can think of a few possibilities. 1) Do you have a sound card? If so, try downloading the newest sets of drivers for them from the manufacturers website. 2) How old are your the speakers? That same thing happened to me when my speakers were starting to go bad from excessive loud music, etc..

The money he would be getting is basically gone. It has been going towards keeping her in the hospital if I remember correctly. So it isn't really about the money anymore. I myself agree that the tube should be taken out. Who wants to live like that? I can only echo the points brought up by Red and Siren. She is what? Late 30's? Early 40's? Imagine how long it will be for her to relearn everything again were she to get better. That is a big if she were to get better.

You said earlier in the topic that the earliest ones are from 100 years after his death, right here. [QUOTE]And then some of you will still assume that the Quran has been changed over time. There are very old copies of the Quran however, just a century after Muhammad's time, whose text is identical to the copies we use today.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE] He never was. He was emperor of the Byzantine empire. But moving on...[/QUOTE] That is also known as the Easter Roman Empire. The term Byzantine Empire wasn't coined during his time. It was coined much later to differentiate between the Western and Eastern due to various differences that arose over time. [QUOTE]He also realized that in order to keep pagans on his side he had to make some changes. What he did was he took every single Bible and burned them (a few original texts survived) and replaced them with a new version.[/QUOTE] I am curious as to where you heard this? I know for a fact that he had a group of men go through and decide the various books to be put into the Bible, but not of destroying the books and writing a whole new set of them. That would be seen as defiance to God don't you think? Burning his words. He went through and decided which books to add, not destroy. Though, I could be wrong. Anyways... I agree with Siren completely as well. Kk, Im done. ^_^;;

The question still remains. How do you know that he actually means true seas? It is entirely possible that my interpreations is correct. It is entirely possible that Manic's is correct. And it is entirely possible that yours is correct. We don't know what he truly means. So you cannot say anything about with with 100% fact. It doesn't prove anything.