EVA Unit 100

[QUOTE=kenshinsbabe][SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]I apologize in advance if this sounds like a flame. It's not meant to be. Gundam (especially Gundam Wing), Kenshin, Naruto, Trigun, and Yu Yu Hakusho all have their flaws, but usually what you described that was bad was one of the best parts of the show. Take Trigun for example. You said that it didn't have good movement. How do you suppose they got all those gunfights to look fluid? Also, in many scenes, someone is running. I saw no problem with those. Why do you keep comparing all these things with Teen Titans and Avatar? Those shows are both pretty good. Pretty good meaning that it's good to watch if you're sorta bored and looking for a laugh. But anyway, they've got good animation (widely speaking), some relatively good storylines which makes them a bit easier to watch, and a nice range of characters.[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE] Don't worry. It doesn't sound like a flame at all. However, I don't understand why you think the flaws I pointed out were the best parts of the shows? That doesn't really make much sense to me. If you want to see some well-animated gunfights, I highly recommend watching Cowboy Bebop. That show pretty much defines quality animation as far as I'm concerned. The reason I'm comparing those shows to TT and Avatar was because Killer asked me to make a list of 10 shows that had worse animation (not worse stories, as Avatar's storyline is somewhat weak and most of the shows I listed have great stories) than Avatar and I did so. TT just came into this due to the fact it has to come into any thread of this nature.

[quote name='Killer7']I don't know what you are talking about, every aspect of the anime you metioned were better then Avatar ( I will give you Lupin). Better character design, smoother movement transtion, and better at showing emotion are qualities pretty much every anime on your list posess. I have seen alot of hics in shows like Teen Titans and Avatar just from seeing around 2 episodes.[/quote] Gundam series do have cool designs but I honestly don't know how you got the idea they had quality movement. Half the time the characters don't even walk across the screen, they SLIDE. With SEED, there was some better movement in the battle scenes but since those are flashbacked to way too much while the rest of the show is typical Gundam standard it still comes off as rather lower-grade and cheap. Kenshin's designs are generic and the fight choreography is rather bland in the first season. The second season picked things up a bit fight-wise but since the redesigns in the 3rd season were downright butt-ugly it all evens out to a show with worse animation quality than Avatar. If anything, Kenshin would be on the same level animation-wise as Teen Titans: usually average but with a few amazing scenes/episodes showing showing how far the quality of animation can go. Naruto's coloring I find a bit too bright and hard on the eyes with out much mood going for it. The movement is mostly smooth but if you actually look at what's moving, the characters seem more like really stiff dolls than humans. Not something you want human characters in a cartoon to look like. I honestly don't know how you can think Trigun has good movement. I'm not just talking about hics, I'm talking about near-freeze frames in what should be frentic action scenes! If not for the good design work, it honestly wouldn't be any better from a visual standpoint than, say, Yu-Gi-Oh. And if you think Yu-Gi-Oh has good movement, you are seriously whacked in the head. Add in the ugly backgrounds, and I don't know how you could say Trigun has good animation without either a bias towards Japanese shows over American shows (which is rediculous) or a refusal to admit anything with poor animation quality could be done by Madhouse (more understandable, seeing as pretty much everything else Madhouse has done looks awesome, but you still have to admit that Trigun isn't up to their standard of quality). I haven't seen much of Outlaw Star, but what I remember of it looked pretty cheap. Perhaps a better replacement for it on the list would be .HACK//sign. As well-designed as Bee Train's artwork is, they are terrible when it comes to movement. In fact, we could pretty much include Noir, Madlax, and pretty much everything else done by Bee Train seeing as they are of the same low animation quality. Fafter has acceptable animation but the fact they reuse most of the character designs from Gundam SEED and other shows bugs me a bit. Good, but not nearly as visually inventive as Avatar and TT's best moments. Neon Genesis Evangelion is probably the one show on my list you can make a really strong arguement for, but everywhere the show succeeds greatly in terms of animation it also fails equally great. At times it's theatrical-grade stuff, but at other times it's essentially "Crappy Animation For Dummies". Some cheats such as the long, awkward pause on the elevator with Rei and Asuka could be considered useful for storytelling purposes, but even in the early episodes there was constant rehashing of animation. If they had to do it, they could have at least done it in ways that the audience couldn't tell, but they actually seemed to want to make the recycled footage be ballantly obvious. And don't get me started on the last 2 episodes... Yuyu Hakusho's animation quality is actually extremely good if you consider various production factors but the designs are rather ugly. When even the show's bishonen and bishojo look rather sloppily drawn, it puts the show at most on the same level of Avatar. That's still very good, though, and I'm actually sorry for putting it on the list. In it's place, put Chromartie High School (I could tollerate the crappy animation as part of the joke if they made the whole show done that way, but SOMEONE at Production I.G. just HAD to put in some high-budget CGI graphics to ruin all sense of style and honesty). Fruits' Basket, similarly to Naruto, is the type of show that works better from an artistic perspective as a manga rather than an anime. It suffers from some of the same problems that Naruto's animation does. The colors get a bit grating, and outside of the SD moments the characters feel robotic in terms of movement. As for why I like Avatar's animation, I can give you multiple reasons: the background art is beautifully painted, the lighting and coloring conveys the emotion of the scene very well, the whole visual design of the show creates a strong sense of culture and geography, the characters have realistic anatomy and movement, the characters can be highly expressive witohut resorting to stereotypical SD, there is real lip-synch, action scenes are often exciting and beautifully-choreographed, the character designs aren't that interesting but they fit the characters, and the movement is more fluid than the majority of animes out there. You said that you judged the show's animation quality after the first two episodes, but there is a reason why the first 2 episodes weren't up to par: a pilot episode had been made on the regular budget of the show, but it ran too short and they had to make huge changes to the pilot before airtime to streach it out with hardly any money. The result was that the first 2 episodes didn't look as good as the rest of the series due to the rush job they were on, but it actually looks better than other rush jobs (i.e. the last 2 episodes of EVA). The show has actually improved it's animation quality over time, similar to YYH.

[quote name='kenshinsbabe][SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]I would like you to clarify this for me. Do you mean that, even though the animation is better, it looked...worse? Confusing.[/FONT'][/SIZE][/quote] No. I'm saying that Killer 7 was probably expecting 4-5 series that looked like crap, but I listed 10 series of varying animation quality. Some of the shows that I listed have good animation, but Avatar's animation is even better than that.

[quote name='AnimeFront']A very good "half anime" would be MEgas XLR. That show has guest stars from classic animes which makes it a cool show in my opinion.[/quote] The only way that show is remotely "anime" (anime influenced doesn't equal "anime") is that Madhouse did some of the animation and storyboarding on the pilot. However, it was an awesome show. You can't go wrong with Bruce Campbell's head, a G-Force/Power Rangers/Voltron hybrid, and an Urutsukidoji parody in the context of a kiddy show.

[quote name='RedMoon']well i seen wolf's rain i like that show it was emotional :animecry:[/quote] Now, what does this post have to do with anything? (read: spam alert to the mods)

[quote name='kuroinuyoukai']yes. I started watching wolf's rain and it was cancelled. i started watching witch hunter robin and it was cancelled. I started watching ghost in the shell and it was cancelled. Why does Cartoon Network always cancel the good stuff!?![/quote] They aired every single episode of Wolf's Rain 3 times, with a few on-and-off repeats of smaller groups of episodes. They aired every episode single episode of Witch Hunter Robin 2 times, with a few on-and-off repeats of smaller groups of episodes. Ghost in the Shell had all of it's first season aired 3 or 4 times, and the 2nd season will be premiered November 19th at 11 PM. Adult Swim didn't cancel those shows. They aired every single episode multiple times. And outside of a few outright hated shows (i.e. Pilot Candidate, Reign) they'll often repeat shows again in the future. When they change the schedule around, they aren't "canceling". In fact, shouldn't you be happy that all of the shows you mentioned in your post aired in their entirety in a decent timeslot (by late-night standards) with multiple repeats AND that Adult Swim's anime line-up is nearly perfect with more new shows and episodes coming along the pipe? Now, if you are angry at Cartoon Network for not airing all of YYH, Gundam, and Kenshin, not renewing Jack and MEGAS, refusing to give JLU a consistant timeslot, not releasing enough DVDs, etc., your whining is perfectly deserved. But don't bug on AS for not finishing the upteenth run of a show most people have already seen.

[quote name='Killer7']Their is always exceptions, as with pretty much everything, but can you name ten good animes that have worse animation then Avatar?[/quote] OK. -Every single Gundam series (I'm counting them as one show, though) -Rouroni Kenshin -Naruto -Trigun -Outlaw Star -Faftner -Neon Genesis Evangelion -Lupin III -Yuyu Hakusho -Fruits Basket Keep in mind that some of these shows have good animation, but they are worse looking than Avatar.

[quote name='Killer7']Not only is it missing many themes that are in pretty much every anime, it's animation is definitely not up to par.[/quote] I pity the fool who thinks that Beyblade has better animation than Avatar and that Totoro isn't anime because it doesn't involve robots, long and drawn-out plots, magical girls, lots of gore and sex, and/or big-breasted babes. However, I don't think the word "half-anime" makes sense, really. Things can be influenced by certain anime styles, but no entirely American production can be anime in any shape or form. Besides, since Astro Boy was stylisitically similar to Disney and The Powerpuff Girls was stylistically similar to Astro Boy, does that make Astro Boy "half-anime" and PPG "one-quarter-anime"? Both American shows and Japanese shows can both be good and can both suck, but that doesn't chnce their origin. However, I think the word "half-anime" might apply to co-productions between American and Japanese companies. This would apply to stuff like Ghost in the Shell 1, The Animatrix, Milk-Chan, Lady Death, The Big O II, SD Gundam, Blood: The Last Vampire, Yu-Gi-Oh: The Movie, DICE, Technolyze, Gantz, Elfen Lied, the upcoming Fruits Basket II, IGPX, and PPGZ, and if Korean cartoons count as anime, yes, it includes Avatar.

[quote name='EVA Unit 100']Full Metal Alchemist isn't AS material.[/quote] WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING BACK THEN!?!

[quote name='DarkShigure']To me Naruto is better than Inuyasha. And you guys are right the english dub sucks compared to the original japanese version, I hate when they take out all the good stuff :animeangr .[/quote] Did you even read the two posts above yours!?! And if all the stuff you think is "good" is blood, cursing, and shipping, you should probably have said Inuyasha is better than Naruto, given that it has more of that stuff even in the uncut version. Oddly enough, Dagger, I'd probably have liked Inu-Yasha a lot more had I have seen less of it. Like other Rumiko shows, it had a lot of clever concepts and funny characters that supported it as a great show throughout the first several episodes but as it was apparent that things weren't progressing at all in a show that supposedly was focused on a specific goal and character development and eventually it became good for nothing other than drinking games unless you watched it sparingly and ignored the overall story arc entirely. Naruto, already started developing the storyline even in episode 1, and seeing as the story of Naruto tends to be more exciting than Inu-Yasha's IMO (don't know about what you think), that can only be a good thing. Yes, the show does have a lot of glaring flaws that its insane fans won't admit to, such as the drawn-out pacing in some episodes and the crappy filler arcs, but overall a Naruto marathon entertains more than an Inu-Yasha marathon, so overall Naruto wins for me.

[quote name='Howlingvampire4']Yeah, I agree, Naruto is DEFINATELY not for little kids. In English, they really made it kiddy. Like everytime Naruto says his corny new catch phrase"Believe it!" he would say "Damn it!" Also, kakashi would curse, and so would Iruka. I really hate the new english version, they cut out a lot of blood, and words. They should have brought the show to adult swim instead of toonami. :animeangr [/quote] As far as I knew, the Japanese word for damn is "kuso", so "datteyabo" (Naruto's Japanese catchphrase) wouldn't translate to damn it. In fact, most fansubs go over the top with cursing which wasn't in the Japanese version. They cut out hardly any blood. Honestly, who cares that Iruka isn't coughing up blood when there's still blood on his leg and back? In fact, the show would actually be the same on AS. Viz made the TV version intended for AS, but CN wanted it on Toonami, so they aired it there. They did not make it any more kiddy than it was in the Japanese version. You are allowed to like the Japanese version more, seeing as it has better acting as well as better OP/ED themes, but the actors will be the exact same in the uncut DVD release. So either accept that Viz did a good job handling the show, or that Naruto just isn't that mature or deep.

[quote name='dposse']I love Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo. You people need to understand that this is a COMEDY anime. It's not supposed to be smart. Its supposed to be funny, and its one of the few animes that make me laugh out loud. Yeah, it is weird and wacky. So what? Its a comedy![/quote] I'm fine with wierd and wacky. I also like a good deal of intelligence thrown in with that comedy, and several other anime comedies out there do have intelligence. FLCL has various layers and double meanings which both stimulate the mind and add to the comedy. Azumanga Daioh has the "it's funny because it's true" angle nailed perfectly. Hale and Guu mantains a good charact dynamic and uses the wierdness to enhance the writing rather than distract from it. Even the sometimes-annoying Excel Saga has a Family Guy-esque "spot all of the jokes" appeal. But Bobobo is just plain wierd without any intelligence to balance it out and bring it into the realm of comedy. Let's think of it this way: if Excel was Aqua Teens, Bobobo would be the 12oz. Mouse pilot. And don't tell me you're some mentally-retarded fratboy who actually liked that pilot...

Naruto is not hacked at all. Outside of the infamous kiss edit (and I honestly don't see what was so great about the uneditted scene in the first place), all that was editted was some blood and swearing (last Saturday's episode was actually uncut). That's less edits than Bebop got and about as many as Fullmetal Alchemist. Nobody ever says those 2 shows were hacked, so nobody really has the right to say Naruto was hacked. The only really bad thing they did was change the opening and ending, and since ROCKS is a terrible opening and they still have time to put Haruka Kanata back in, that isn't so bad. The Japanese version is better if you're going by voice acting standards but other animes nobody said were hacked had mediocre-to-terrible dubs that were even worse than Naruto's so Naruto is not hacked at all.

[quote name='Killer7']Personally I have to say that One Piece is total junk, from it's rap opening to the ending credits.[/quote] Watch some fansubs of it. Since you said "rap opening", I assume you're watching the hackjob. You can say "Well, the show is licensed, so downloading doesn't feel right", but the One Piece dub is essentially a completely different show from the original, so if you're the type of person who watches fansubs of shows not available in America, check out the original. I've watched up to episode 18 of the subbed anime as well as having read all of the released manga and I have to say that it's a pretty entertaining show that supposedly gets even better over time.

Well, if individual episodes are being talked about instead of entire shows, I'd say episode 1 of Champloo is probably the episode of any anime series. So many memorable moments in that one. I was actually quite let down by the following 11 episodes(though I hear the last 14 are significant improvements as they actually have real plot and character development). Also the ones Dagger mentioned are very good as well.

Some ratings news: [URL]http://medialifemagazine.com/artman/publish/article_403.asp[/URL] Naruto got 670,000 viewers with the 12-17 demographc, and 840,000 with 9-14! Also Zatch Bell got 850,000 with 9-14! Never since the days YYH, GT, and Kenshin roamed on a slightly less evil Toonami has anime gotten this good ratings on TV! Keep up the great work, Viz!

For kids: Naruto For families: Spirited Away For adults: Cowboy Bebop Can't really go wrong with those choices.

Now, I'm sorry if I break everybody's hearts, but this is the answer you didn't want to hear to the question you wanted to know the answer to: As confirmed at Anime Weekend Atlanta, Yuyu Hakusho is not coming back. Ever. Why? "Ratings." For some reason, despite often tieing with Dragonball GT in terms of tween viewership, CN canceled it due to "ratings." That's the last straw. Even if I like some of their shows, I now officially hate Cartoon Network (oddly enough, I love Adult Swim even though their new comedies have becoming increasingly crappy). They're the reason Hacked Piece is surviving, why every American action show they have of any quality is on the verge of cancelation, and now why I'll have to spend over $100 just to get 1 1/2 seasons of YYH. They are at new levels of suckiness now, and if they don't give Akins scheduling over Toonami in the next year, consider me a DVD-only dude.

Probably the show I'd recommend for you would Gunslinger Girl. It's honestly depressing, both tearjerking and compelling at the exact same time. A bit too much for those who can't handle it, but I doubt you'd post a thread like this if you couldn't in the first place! Grave of the Fireflies was a great and very sad, but I don't know if it is what you would want. I cried more than any other movie I've ever seen when watching it, yet for some odd reason I wasn't too depressed afterwards. Probably because when you think about what makes it all so sad was that the characters were so likeable, and if you can try really hard to think of the nice moments they had together, it gives off a bit more of a bittersweet vide than an entirely depressing one. FMA has a lot of really sad moments. I recommend that if you don't mind a few bursts of comedy amongst all of the tragedy. Paranoia Agent is depressing in it's own wierd way. However, you have to be really smart to be able to figure the story out and exactly why it's sad. Otherwise, you just go out of the series befuddled and terrified... Not as if that's a bad thing and the people who do get it don't have those feelings as well! :devil:

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only boy to post in this thread, but after watching the first 3 episodes of this show I can say this could easily become a new favorite of mine! In all honesty, this is a show I would probably hate if it wasn't so funny. With all of the rediculously corny plot and visual elements, this honestly feels like somebody was giving an entirely different show the Sealab/Duel Masters redub treatment. And yet, this is an authentic piece of work. What a work of genius! I must finish watching volume 1 and get volume 2!

[quote name='Dagger']And honestly, I couldn't blame parents for complaining about Utena, haha.[/quote] Me neither. I'm just trying to show that Japan has censorship like America does, only not as much. Censorship and controversy isn't always a bad thing, and usually there is a good reason for it. I was just pointing out it's existence, not an opinion on it (outside of my distaste for "ecchentai", as I'm starting to call it). But I think we can all agree there was no purpose for banning over half of Cowboy Bebop, especially since one of the few episodes they did air was Jupiter Jazz and not only does that episode have some of the most violence and sexual themes of any episode in the series, but without Ballad of Fallen Angels and The Real Folk Blues surrounding it the two-parter would make no sense to people who didn't buy the OAV/wait patiently for airings on WOWOW/Adult Swim.

[quote name='Weaver_Karuko']Over there in the asian continent and other countries surrounding it, whoever makes/creates/draws/animates anime doesn't have to worry about some organization cracking down on everything they do, which is why they can make more complex and more enjoyable shows...[/quote] Sadly, some of the most enjoyable shows to have ever come out of Japan HAVE been cracked down by some organization at some point. EVA had to make a new TV finalle because their original didn't get by the censors. Utena got several complaint letters from parents. Cowboy Bebop only got to air 12 episodes. Even ultramegahits like Gundam SEED and Fullmetal Alchemist were the causes of controversy in Japan. And yet each year the line between televised "ecchi" and hentai blurs even more and more. :rolleyes:

[quote name='Stark']I concur on the point SayianPrincess made earlier; the art style and story structure are far more in depth and eloquent that anything made here in the States.[/quote] I like anime more than American cartoons in general, but a few American cartoons I've seen are up there with the best anime in terms of animation and writing. In particular, the story structure in Justice League Unlimited is more-or-less on par with Stand Alone Complex (perhaps above due to the fact of being more comprehensible while still mantaining a high level of complexity), and artistically I'd be pushed to think of a TV anime with better animation direction than Avatar: The Last Airbender. As for why I like anime, I pretty much watch it simply because it stands out from the majority of American films and TV shows. There are overlap points (i.e. Bebop feels more American, Samurai Jack feels more Japanese), and different doesn't mean "better" or "worse", but the distinctions and overlaps are interesting from a film study perspective, and interesting enough to draw me into the art and plots of the better animes.

[quote name='InuElric']Oh come on EVA, am I the only one here who likes the OP anime? LOL. It's not so cheesy...just a lil' salt watery![/quote] I think the original anime is amazing. The dub, however, I absolutely dispise.

[quote name='algazaleen!']I meant toonami in 2001, back when they still showed tenchi, sailor moon, samurai jack, and dragon ball.[/quote] Samurai Jack rocks, but it isn't anime. Also, it only aired on Toonami twice as marathons in 2002 and 2004, unless you count a 2 week run in 2003. Dragonball hadn't premiered yet as of 2001, and Sailor Moon and Tenchi were both canceled in 2001. Toonami nowadays has One Piece (a bad anime), Duel Masters (a bad anime), Naruto (a good anime), Zatch Bell (an OK anime), Teen Titans (a good American show), Justice League Unlimited (a good American show), and soon Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo (an anime that looks awesome) and IGPX (an anime-American co-production that could go either way). If they could replace One Piece with YYH then their line-up would be their greatest ever.