Papa Smurf

[quote name='James']The fact that you don't understand the irony of this very comment just isn't amusing anymore, lol.[/quote] Irony? Where? It's only irony if I don't shoot straight, or give credit where credit's due. But look at this. I'm not a big football fan at all. I played the original NFL Blitz on N64 and that was the extent of my 3D football gaming. I have since had zero interest in football videogames in general. I've been skeptical of the Wiimote itself for much of the launch titles, and have even had my doubts about Madden 07. And yet here I am, singing its praises. So where's the irony in your previous statements? Do I not play things fairly? Do I not maintain a level of objectivity? Come now, James. Don't be such a foolish dandy. [quote]But you have systematically attacked nearly every aspect of the platform in recent times and many of these attacks have been based on completely erroneous information. That is most certainly not open-minded.[/quote] Oh, please, then, do tell me what in this system is truly revolutionary! There are such massive logical inconsistencies in the entire marketing campaign. The very philosophy behind the Wii is a complete mess--and even people waiting in that line earlier today could see how none of these new features made any sense whatsoever. Oh, please, fearless leader, tell me just how any of these features on Wii are revolutionary to where they just cannot be put under any type of intense scrutiny. [quote]The reason I dislike debating on such grounds is because engaging in a debate on false premises isn't going to get anyone anywhere[/QUOTE] I know what you can do! You can go into detail and tell me what "false premises" actually means. Do you mean that my predictions that the Wiimote function in WiiTP will feel "tacked on" is a false premise, only because of positive hands-on previews, even when we know for a fact that hands-on previews can be so, so misleading? Which would be the truly false premise there? Or would my comments regarding the development cycle and the "rush job" Wiimote functionality be considered a false premise, when in fact the end result of such a small window feels dull and sloppy, and lacking the kind of depth of the combat in WindWaker? Keep in mind that the combat in WindWaker was impeccable, and at times had the responsiveness, accuracy, and attack punctuation of top fighting games. Also keep in mind that the Wiimote is a controller largely unsuitable for the fighting game genre. Or perhaps it's my overall skepticism regarding the status of an online gaming service that we have heard absolutely nothing about? Is that a false premise? Is it wrong for people to lack confidence in a product when the development company is not releasing any of the important details of said product? I think it's quite the contrary. That's a perfectly valid and logical reaction when the individual loses confidence in said company. Maybe that "false premise" has more to do with what can be classified as a "fundamental change to play control"? A premise can only be false when there is clear, undeniable, concrete, immediately accessible and easily experienced proof that contradicts such a premise. When discussing fundamental changes to play control, there are most certainly true examples of fundamental changes to play control which have gone above and beyond whatever we were seeing coming out of WiiTP, so how would it be a "false premise" to conclude that WiiTP is in fact not a fundamental change to play control? What could possibly be a false premise, James, when all of that regarding WiiTP comes from direct hands-on experience from no more than five hours ago? I'm outright stating exactly what wasn't working in the retail launch version of WiiTP. There are no false premises here, dear. OH! And you must know that I'm not talking about spending a few minutes playing WiiTP at some random kiosk in some random store. I was playing it in my house, on my own TV, in my own chair, for quite a bit longer than "a few minutes."

[quote name='James']Your "predictions" were simply emotional gripes related to the fact that Twilight Princess was a conversion and that GameCube owners were having to wait.[/quote] Yes, I'm sure it was all just driven by pure emotion because I felt slighted after it became clear I wasn't going to be getting a GCN game that I'd cancelled my preorder for almost two years before any announcements were made regarding the Wii. James, don't even try to masquerade my previous predictions as "emotional gripes." Nintendo made a stupid business decision, and once people see just how overhyped WiiTP was, and how greatly a game like Madden 07 just shats all over WiiTP's Wiimote functionality, they're going to realize just how stupid a decision it was. I'm not an idiot fueled by emotional angst, despite what you may want, so do not try to misrepresent me as such. [quote]It was all very transparent and the wealth of online impressions and reviews have thusfar quashed it absolutely.[/quote] "Quashed it absolutely"? lol. Have you even played the game? James, I'll tell you right now. WiiTP was overhyped beyond anything. Don't be fooled (and don't let yourself be fooled) by those perfect 10s and 9.5+ scores. They're not accurately reflecting this game. The visuals downright suck in most places. The textures look awful. The controls feel ancient and archaic. The motion sensor does next to nothing to deepen the gameplay experience. And the fact that we don't even have a manual camera anymore is a major step back in the series. [quote]In any case, I'm simply not going to argue it with you. If I do, it will go around in circles and you will end up doing exactly what you did last time - let's not go there. I just don't have the energy for that cylical garbage these days.[/quote] Cyclical garbage eh? Okay, we'll just let you have this one and we'll continue to forever consider it cyclical garbage, even after I've seen my own predictions confirmed right before my eyes after I've laid my hands on WiiTP...on launch day no less. You'll have to forgive me for sounding so harsh, but I'm sure it's still "cyclical garbage" when it's becoming so, so obvious I was right all along. [quote]1UP/EGM have generally been relatively harsh on both Nintendo and Microsoft at times[/quote] Oh, then you've got to provide links to these articles, because I haven't seen [i]anything[/i] that is "relatively harsh" on Nintendo. In fact, I haven't seen anything from 1UP [i]or[/i] EGM that could ever be classified as even remotely harsh. So what are you reading? What do you think is "harsh" at all? Give me some quotes from previews that could be harsh to even the most case-hardened reader. [quote]But more importantly, as I said - and will not repeat a million times - it's important to look at a spread of reviews and impressions.[/quote] As if I don't? Sorry, but "more than any of the stupid-simple perfect score reviews posted elsewhere" would imply that I do in fact look at the spreads of reviews and impressions...and read them, to boot. [quote]What I have simply said is that it is inappropriate to a) dismiss something off-hand without having in-depth knowledge of it and b) to make a pre-judgement on an issue and then selectively insert information (whether relevant or irrelevant) which supports that conclusion.[/quote] But James, here's the really awesome part: I was right all along. And I've had the hands-on experience no more than five hours ago [i]to prove it[/i]. [quote]If I play Zelda on Wii and I don't like it, believe me, I will say so.[/quote] James, I never knew you had a sense of humor. [quote]The main difference is that I try to keep an open mind until I have enough information about something[/quote] Oh, yeah, because even though I'm not convinced that Wii is truly a revolution, I'm not keeping an open mind by actually being genuinely excited about trying Excite Truck and WiiTP? Or being willing to stand outside of a Toys R Us for almost five hours in 40-ish degree weather on launch day because a friend wants to play Wii with me? Or what about offering good, reasonable advice to the mothers in line behind me when they're figuring out what accessories to purchase along with the Wii for their sons? Or that I'm now further driving home what I've been saying after I most certainly have enough information--from my very own hands-on experience with WiiTP? Or the fact that I'll still buy a Wii sometime in 2007? James, you're dead wrong, because all of that is totally keeping an open mind.

[quote name='James']Haha. That statement speaks for itself.[/quote] Explain, please. Do explain how it's still so obviously me just following something to justify my views, when I'd voiced those predictions ages ago, long before many of the hands-on previews, only to have my predictions ultimately confirmed in reviews that don't just get wowed by TP and give it a 10/10 without so much as a second thought. Not to mention having those predictions confirmed by my own first-hand experience playing the retail launch edition of WiiTP. Man, it's not me following something to justify my views; it's my first-hand experience and reasoning skills justifying the 8.8 review. [quote]But as I said, it's really a matter of looking at a spread of reviews. I think 1UP has actually been one of the sites to hold Wii more "accountable", so their glowing review of Twilight Princess is actually a little unexpected in that regard.[/quote] 1UP? Man, they were lovey-dovey even months before launch, and it's not like they were much skeptical at all before that, so don't even try to portray them as some sort of convert. [quote]In any case, I'll have the game on December 7th, so I will be letting everyone know what I think of it...whether that opinion is positive or negative.[/QUOTE] And I can't wait to see what happens when you play what I just suffered through.

[quote name='James][font=arial']Afterall, Gamespot was the site that down-rated Super Mario Sunshine for having low quality FMV...which obviously has nothing to do with the game itself.[/font][/quote] Remember that Gamespot has also taken a very fair stance toward Wii games in general; it's probably one of the better (or best) sites for Wiiviews. Only Red Steel and Excite Truck received mediocre ratings (5.5 and 6.8, respectively), and I can guarantee that Excite Truck totally deserves such a rating. Super Monkey Ball was given marks in the high 8.X, which is totally appropriate given the game's design itself. Madden 07 also received marks in the high 8.X, and speaking from first-hand experience, Gamespot was totally fair with its assessment of Madden; the game simply rocks. This isn't a matter of following whatever justifies my views. This is a matter of highlighting the level-headed, responsible, and [i]fair[/i] reviews out there, like the ones at Gamespot.

[quote name='Sandy']Then why don't I feel helped?[/quote] Simple: because you're hypersensitive. Nothing of what anyone has said to you has been mean-spirited or negative. It's all been designed to help you. You don't feel helped because you're totally unwilling to see what others see. Why that is, one can only guess, but judging by what we consistently see from you, I have a feeling it's got a lot to do with an ego.

[quote name='Sandy']What is there to take, honestly?[/quote] How about advice from a significant number of significantly experienced writers that do know what they're talking about. Dude, don't be so dense. [quote]According to you as well as a number of others, my game sucks, so the only thing I could do is to change it completely, or just give up.[/quote] Point to where I and "as well as a number of others" have said anything of the sort. If you can't, then drop this drama queen persona. [quote]You can psyche and provoke me all you want, I'm not giving in.[/quote] Dude, what are you on? Since when did telling you how to improve your concept and improve your chances of having a successful [i]community event[/i] (as opposed to this whole square peg/round hole thing you're trying here) suddenly become psyching or provoking you? Are you [i]that[/i] trite or oversensitive that you can't even differentiate between mind games and actual criticism designed to help you? [quote]I don't understand where everybody has gotten this sudden urge to give me a piece of their "constructive" advice.[/QUOTE] Because it's obvious you don't seem to understand the most important aspect of a community event: [i]that it involves the community[/i].

[quote name='Sandy']It maybe obscure and convoluted as an idea, but I've done my best to thoroughly explain the rules that apply to my event, and they shouldn't be unclear to anybody who has read them.[/quote] You're missing the point. I don't care how much you explained things. The level to which you explained the rules is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is [i]the idea of the game itself[/i] is an obscure and convoluted one, and even [i]pales[/i] in comparison to something like Clue. I don't get why you don't see that, man. The very fact that you'd have to require people to [b][i]private message[/i][/b] you with their sign-ups for a [b][i]community event[/i][/b] should immediately tip you off that your idea is not suited for this type of environment. I mean, honestly. That much is just common sense. [quote]Besides, how can you claim that nobody has played the board game around here? Just because [i]you[/i] haven't? There's a link to a site advertising the game in the bolded name, unless you didn't notice.[/quote] Until I see other people chiming in and being all "Oh, man! I know that game! I've been playing it for years!!!" I have no reason to conclude otherwise, Sandy. Oh, and the suggested playtime for the boardgame is 45 minutes. You think that 45 minutes will translate into under 2 months, especially considering how these types of overcomplicated RPGs rarely get off the ground after two weeks? Be sensible, dude. [quote]Besides, how can you claim that nobody has played the board game around here?[/quote] Oh yeah, and by the way: [quote name='Papa Smurf]I'm a total freak when it comes to obscure boardgames (and general obscure games), and [i]even I've never heard of 13 Dead End Drive[/i]. I don't [b]think[/b'] anyone here has.[/quote] I bolded the important word there. Sandy, drop the dramatics. [quote]What are you even trying to do, get me to drop out of this contest? No matter how much resistance I get for my event, I'm going to pull it through with people who are actually interested in it, and in the end it's [i]Shy[/i]'s decision if it was good enough or not. Don't tell me it won't work before it has even started.[/QUOTE] Sandy, don't be a drama queen. It makes you look increasingly stupid and juvenile and does nothing to improve your standing here. I, like others, have offered you feedback and criticism that you [i]should[/i] be taking instead of throwing your usual pissy little tantrum.

[quote name='Sandy]Also, the basic concept for Labyrinth is actually taken from a board game called [url="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/1899"][b]"13 Dead End Drive"[/b][/url'], where every player controls each of the twelve pawns, trying to kill off each other's pawns while not exposing own pawns to the other players.[/quote] Sandy, that's one of your major issues here. I'm a total freak when it comes to obscure boardgames (and general obscure games), and [i]even I've never heard of 13 Dead End Drive[/i]. I don't think anyone here has. So here you're basing your "event" on an obscure board game with a convoluted ruleset that is entirely better suited to a conventional, physical board with individual players right there, at a table, because those types of backstabbing situations are better orchestrated face-to-face. That's why something like Fireball Island wouldn't work over the 'net as well as it does on a pool table in your basement.

Not feeling my new NF Ele so far, and I accidentally selected Ranger for my secondary, so I'm thinking I might remake the character. Plus, my original idea for E/P and They're On Fire! wouldn't have worked, because ToF is linked to Leadership, the paragon's primary attribute, which means it'll suck majorly on an E/P. So yeah. My ele is only level 5, so I could probably run around with you guys a bit. I'm hoping I get some really fun ele spells soon. Otherwise I'm going to be bored, heh.

Gamespot review was posted a little while ago. I'm very amused by what's been said ultimately, even in the light of such positive hands-on previews. Though, this really should not surprise anyone, since we were reading glowing hands-on previews of GoldenEye: Rogue Agent. And we all know how badly that turned out. URL: [url="http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/thelegendofzelda/review.html"]http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/thelegendofzelda/review.html[/url] [quote] [b]The Good:[/b] Compelling characters and story; outstanding world and puzzle design; longer than most action adventure games; terrific graphics, from an artistic perspective. [b]The Bad:[/b] [i]Wii-specific elements feel tacked on[/i]; graphics and sound sometimes go from nostalgic to dated.[/quote] [quote]It's good that Twilight Princess' world and puzzle design can carry it, because the combat and boss fights aren't very deep at all. Most enemies just require you to swing your sword at them, which is done by shaking the Wii Remote or shaking the Nunchuk for a spin attack. You can lock onto enemies with the Z trigger and strafe around them, hop back and forth, leap in for a jumping attack, or jump back and out of the way--the same basic moves as past installments. But normally you can just keep on shaking the Wii Remote like a maniac and come out on top against most enemies. There's no finesse to the way the Wii Remote is used, and at times you'll wish that you could just hit a button to swing the sword instead of dealing with all the [i]motion-sensing nonsense[/i]. This is especially true in the rare cases that require you to time your sword swings properly, as well as once you start learning a few extra moves, like the shield bash, which is done by shoving the Nunchuk controller forward. Most of the time, performing this move resulted in a spin attack. The combat controls using the Wii Remote may feel somewhat different from past games, but [i]it doesn't draw you into the experience any more than using a standard controller would, and at worst, it's imprecise[/i].[/quote] [quote]So as impressive of a game as it is, Twilight Princess seems like it could have been so much more with a few presentational updates and more effective and interesting uses of the Wii's unique control scheme.[/quote] Oh, incidentally, I played Excite Truck earlier today. I was very eager to try the Wii out, because apparently "playing is believing," and fortunately got a solid 20 minutes with it. After a hands-on session, I can say with total confidence that the game is exceedingly underwhelming. The controls are neither precise nor satisfying, and the game plays more like a budget title rather than a launch racing game. The Wiimote never feels responsive, and it is much too small to comfortably hold sideways. And actually, the D-pad itself is marginally larger than the GCN's, which is increasingly problematic. For a controller that is touted to be more intuitive, it's actually the complete opposite; using the Wiimote never becomes second nature. I never once felt like I was actually controlling the trucks. What was particularly troublesome was how the cursor itself was getting stuck on the edges of the screen when navigating through the various menus. I couldn't bring it back through soft motions; jerking the Wiimote back to center was the only way to unstick the cursor. I've heard that subtle hand movements are enough to use the Wiimote, but that's really not the case at all. A lot of the time, I had to make my movements really pronounced. So from my hands-on experience with the Wiimote itself, I can absolutely see where the reviewer's comments are coming from regarding WiiTP, and due to that hands-on experience, I'm more inclined to trust the Gamespot review more than any of the stupid-simple perfect score reviews posted elsewhere. [u][b]EDIT #2[/b][/u]: And after the incessant fan-flaming and whining after the original review, another Gamespot editor wrote the following in a blog entry (url: [url]http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-24771792&user=MattRorie#la[/url]): [quote][url="http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-24771792&user=MattRorie"]It's Zelda, people.[/url] Since I know people are upset about the review (which is odd considering how few people have played this game at the moment), I figured I'd share some opinions based on playing through the first five hours or so of the game. It's the same damn game we've all been playing for the last 15-odd years. Hey, guess what? You get to go into dungeons...and find items...and put together pieces of heart to make new heart containers. I haven't gotten very far into it, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Triforce is in the mix at some point. There's a difference between tradition and ossification, and Nintendo's been content to let this series stay the same for too damn long. What's more, in a lot of ways it's actually getting to be pretty annoying. The helper characters, in particular, seem to be intended to be cute, but they wind up being maddeningly insufferable. In a lot of ways, Midna, the helper character from Twilight Princess, is even worse than Tingle from Wind Waker. And I don't know whose idea it was to make the first dungeon in the game feature a large number of monkeys that follow you around making incessent monkey noises, but they should be shot. Most annoying. sound. ever. When you have the pointer active, it also makes a shimmering sound as you move the Wiimote around. It never ever stops making this sound, and it got so damn annoying that I simply turned the pointer off completely. Since every game in this series is more or less the same, outside of minor details, choosing among them is more or less a matter of deciding which style suits you best. Wind Waker had, at the very least, a graphical sensibility that was unique, whereas Twilight Princess just seems...generic. For a game that plays up its theoretically realistic graphical style, it also has to do a bit better job of representing the world; it's fine that the Wii isn't as powerful as a 360 or a PS3, but at the very least it should be capable of matching the best-looking games on the GameCube. From top to bottom, Twilight Princess is a game that was transparently designed for the GameCube and hacked to work on the Wii. The controls feel kind of shoddy in a lot of ways. I guess what disappoints me most about this game is the lack of ambition and innovation. The Wii has some promising ideas behind it, but if they're content to have their flagship title be Just Another Zelda Game(TM) then they're getting off on the wrong foot. I guess if you like the Zelda formula, then you'll like this game. Speaking for myself, though, I can't imagine how anyone really gets excited for them anymore; the recycling of game mechanics ventured into self-parody territory years ago. I really think the series needs to take a cue from Resident Evil 4 and reinvent itself completely. Heck, even the Final Fantasy games manage to make some big changes to the series' conventions with each installation. As it is, everything about Twilight Princess, and pretty much every game in the series aside from The Adventure of Link, smacks of Nintendo being content to play it safe with their big-money series. Give me something new![/quote] I played WiiTP earlier today for a significant amount of time, and every single thing said in both the above blog entry and the review itself is absolutely true. WiiTP looks downright terrible, the controls are substandard, the Wiimote isn't utilized well at all--but above all else, what was one of the best features introduced in WindWaker is totally absent: an independent, manually controlled camera. You'd think the Wiimote could spin the view around when you're just walking or running around like the right thumbstick could in every single third-person action-adventure platformer in existence. But it certainly appears to be impossible to have in WiiTP. I scoured the menu options and found nothing to change it.

[quote name='Bombu][color=darkred']Makes you think whether stores should start putting up "No Camping" signs outside.[/color][/quote] That would be awesome. I'd love to see a Best Buy tag like this: [center][URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2317/bestbuycamperskickew4.png[/IMG][/URL] [/center]

[quote name='John']If someone takes a picture of themselves and a group of friends setting up a 360 outside a vendor and having a blast on it right in front of all the campers, I will personally send them a check for thirty thousand dollars.[/quote] Mmmm...that's not a bad idea. We'd have to do Gears of War on it, probably.

[quote name='Lunox][color=dimgray']Or they're students and they got money from their parents. [/color][/quote] Don't they have school then? If they're college age, they've got finals coming up in less than three weeks. If they're in high school, then they're cutting class entirely. I'm really wondering what kinds of lives these people have. lol

[quote name='Charles']Honestly, they better be scalpers. I can't imagine anyone going through this effort just to play the thing.[/quote] And yet it's entirely within possibility the campers you saw earlier are doing just that. We live in crazy times. I'm wondering how those people are able to camp out like that, too. Either they have jobs and requested off to camp out for two days, or they're unemployed, which makes me wonder where they're getting 700+ for a new game system.

[QUOTE=DeadSeraphim]Demos? I've never known a demo to include an entire third of the game, Alex. I've known demos to take me through one or two specific sections, but never do they let you play from the start all the way through a third - and then have it tell me you to buy a serial or get out. Once you got the serial though, the rest was right there. In practice, shareware games were a fundamentally different concept to demos because of that, it let you get a real solid experience with the game then if you were willing to support the studio, it let you keep going. Demos just give you enough to cut your teeth on but just enough to (ideally) leave you wanting more, then you'd have to go out and buy the game separately. In both scenarios you're getting a taste of a full game, but the circumstances, execution, and the fact demos are never refered to as shareware, or vice verca, outside of your claims in this thread, make them entirely different beasts. But I digress. Episodic content is similar to shareware (by the way I'm defining it) because you already have the full game at your fingertips (or would, if they weren't hosted online - you've still payed for a full game though), but you have to pay a little bit extra once you hit that point. And with that said, I'm done arguing pointless semantics. Post Script: Shareware as a concept only worked really on the **** that was new and exciting, like the original Doom. Duke Nukem 3D got more sales through off the shelf than shareware, and rode the controversy wave more than the shareware wave (Charles summed it up earlier as Doom with strippers, which piqued people's attention - lucky the gameplay was solid, huh?). The fact that shareware as a marketting concept died out shows that people got sick of it for gaming (utility shareware is still going strong, of course).[/QUOTE] Alan, what did companies use demos and shareware for? To entice you to support the company, to buy the software. No matter if you call it a demo or shareware, [i]the goal was the same[/i]: to give you a taste of the game [b]*for free*[/b] so that you'll hopefully snag the full product. That is not comparable to this microtransaction ********, and pointing to some vague public dislike of shareware does nothing to help whatever point you're trying to make, because the public absolutely embraced shareware/demos. Nobody would have given two shats about Duke Nukem 3D had Apogee not done shareware. The edgy qualities of the game certainly were a selling point, but Apogee got people hooked by giving them those demos. And I don't see how you can say that shareware as a marketing [b]concept[/b] has died out at all...considering the success of demos across the industry today. You have entire sections on XBL for game demos. You have entire networks on sites like Gamespot dedicated to game demos. Shareware as a [b]concept[/b] is still alive and well. So why point to shareware/demos to criticize EA's price-gouging? It's just a stupid thing to do. With shareware, you still got the product for free. You didn't have to pay anything to get that partial game. And people obviously did not dislike that at all. The success of shareware is testament to that. What EA is doing is nothing like shareware. You're paying 60 bucks up front to play a portion of the game, then another 50 or so on top of that, like in the case of NFS:Carbon. If they gave you the starter portion of the game for free, then you could make such a comparison. [quote]Episodic content is similar to shareware (by the way I'm defining it) because you already have the full game at your fingertips[/quote] The way you're defining it is a totally broad and vague idea, though, that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Anyone can see that even episodic content is totally different than shareware, most importantly because you don't pay anything up front with shareware, as opposed to what we're seeing currently with microtransactions. "But the content is still there, just restricted from you" you say? So what? I don't see how that enables this comparison, especially when the respective pricing structures of each system are totally different. Shareware itself didn't die out due to the lack of public interest, either. It just became too expensive to distribute in the original methods. Back in the 90s, gaming was still small enough to where you could spread the game over messageboards, or on 3.5 floppies. That's not the case anymore. Now it's either high-speed downloads or CDs. Or even DVDs in some cases.