Kent

Evolution? [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B] Any way what the hell does this have to do with the two countries in question? Eps ? Meh. [/B][/QUOTE] This is exactly what I was thinking. :whoops:

Yup, I also like cars that are obtainable... However, for the dreamer in me its the McLaren. My obtainable car is the fastest car made since the McLaren F1... I also want to mention that I love cars in general. The cobra 427 Ferrari F40 360 modena 53 vette Porche, any model, any year. (then again...) Lamborgini, ferrari, porche, McLaren and a few others... all of them, any model, any year. If I was gonna pick a car that I may be able to have one day... I would pick the corvette. Its amazingly awesome in terms of performance. It looks great and its all american. I also want to say that I love BMW in most respects. The M3 is an awesome car and the M5 is also an awesome car. Most of all, what I love about the 3 series is the 50/50 wieght distrubution front to rear. In a sport sedan availible for 30 thousand, that is a great attribute that is not something most people look at when they buy those cars for the name recognition or little plate on the front. Btw, does anyone know where that little bmw symbol comes from? I do... if you would like to know, just ask. I know james knows, so he cant answer, since I told him a few months ago. So... who knows?

Mclaren F1. The fastest production car ever made. 3.1 seconds 0-60 240+ mph top speed 6.0 liter, twin turbo charged, BMW V-12. 650+ horse power All wheel drive Three seater... Driver in the middle, two offset seats to its rear. One million dollar price tag The first year of production, this car won the overall title at the 24 hours of Le Mans. This is a gt car, not a prototype. (that should mean something to the Le Mans fans.) This is an amazing car and I suggest you all check the images I put together in this attachment.

Writing, drawing and spoken word. That is how I express myself. However, I also use each of these in a very private way... except writing... As I consider the writing I do on the boards an expression of myself and my opinions.

Tabmow, I personally appreciate the time you took to write you post and put into it some honest opinions... However... You have gotta work on seperating your individual ideas just as we do with normal writting and the idea of the paragraph. Although it can make for a longer post, it will make for a more "readable" post. Just hit enter and put an individual line of empty space between each paragraph. Have fun here on the boards, and please try to take this to mind when you are about to write a post that is one really, REALLY big paragraph. Thanks. Oh yea, I should also mention that I agree with some of the things you said... it is the hip thing alot of the time to support the palestinians. But just like usual, there are spots where I can disagree... sorry.

First off, I dont appreciate the sarcastic tone you have taken. I never played the "know-it-all." So please just lay off on the personal angle of attack. However, to address your questions... Requiring a secondary source before accepting an entire book of ancient text as a fact is not at all a standard that is found only in certain spots... it is all over and a world wide standard. Religious text can not be taken in whole as fact when addressing the text from an objective stance. Events in the bible may have occurred and many have been proven to have occurred, but that does not change the fact that the bible itself is a religious document, not a historic document. The bible is a work of literature. This does not exclude it from containing historic events... it only means that other elements of the book might not be factual. If we were to take all ancient literature as fact, then the works of homer would also be taken as historic fact. Secondary sources are required for anything, not just ancient religious text. Do I really need to mention the name of that one man who changed the world forever and in many ways defied most laws of modern science? I do not know all things as you tried to say I implied. And often times things are not what they are presented as. Secondary sources are not an odd request. Blind faith is an odd request. Worst of all in this is the fact that I very much consider myself a practicing christian. However, this does not mean I cannot have doubts or question my beliefs. Not all of us are so lucky to be sure of our faith.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMax [/i] [B]The palestinians have been there far longer han the Israelis. You see, the Palestinians are teh descendets of the original inhabtants of Caana, who were there before the Isaraelites came and conquered and told them to worship their one god or die. [/B][/QUOTE] Actually you are wrong about that... Both the palestinians and Jews are basically the same people and infact, both were there for the same period of time since about the same time. That is why both the jews and palestinians are considered specifically "semetic peoples." The jews have been in palestine since atleast 1200-1000 bc. However, citing research from the most recent archaeological evidence and the "western civilazation- volume 1: up to 1715" college level book in front of me; the israelites are now believed to be an ethnic group indigineous to the hill areas of palestine. This is contrary to the "history" recorded from certain accounts claiming that the hebrews are direct decendants of abraham who migrated from mesopatiania... Scholars now believe that the accounts of "history" recorded in the early literature, were only accounts of what the hebrews believed of their own past. The centuries between the recording of this history and the actual events depicted there in, allowed for a "problem" in the accuracy of the recording of the events/history. The bottom line in this is that there is no clear cut answer to the origins of the hebrew people... The archaeological community is split, therefore, none of us can say with confidence that the hebrews were or were not in palestine since the begining of human existance. This also applies to the palestinians. Both parties have rightful claims to the area and both parties have inhabited the land for so long that thre is no question... both groups belong on that land. The problem is not that the land isnt big enough, the problem is that there are driving forces of hate, which will not allow for any peace in the reigon. I also want to remind you all that the bible is not historic fact. It is literature taken as a religious document and guide for living. Not a legitimate documentation of history. Only those subjects which can be verified by secondary evidence are considered to be fact.

Alright, I am so sure now... Trigun is awesome... I actually, just like inu yasha and kenshin, am falling in loving with the humor of the show and not the action. Although, trigun is pretty sweet about the action when vash gets serious. However, the bottom line is that I just love the humor of this show as well as the other two I just mentioned. I am really impressed with cn now. Dbz was a cn only thing on tv for the longest time... and now once again, cn is bringing us anime that no one else wants to risk airing. With all its faults, I still say thank you to cn.

Two points I often make in this situation are... 1. Every sect of religion has a slightly different text. With that in mind, it would be easy for us all to find a violent "anti-infadel" version of the quraan, just as well as a peace loving version. 2. Extremist... The very term extremist does nothing to implie the numbers of people who hold those views. It merely implies where the views of those people are in comparison to the medium, not the average, but the medium. With one of the largest muslim countries in the world (saudi arabia) supporting wahabism as a state sponsored religion, there is no way we can all act like there is not an enourmous population of extremist. Although, it should be noted Im still not saying all muslims are hate filled or anything so stupid. Im just acknowledging the truth about the large population of radical, anti western, militant, islamic nationalist.

I am just glad they are showing atleast a few more episodes of this show... I saw that they werent doing toonami today and thought that they were done with it becuase they were running out of dbz and feared the worst... that they had no more kenshin to air. Luckily, kenshin will continue.. but in classic cn style, for how long? I have no clue. anyone else know.

The bottom line in this situation is that since the begining of time, these two semetic groups have occupied the same land. It takes two parties that want peace to actually have peace. There are not two parties in this situation. Both parties are split... and each side has groups who want peace and groups who want revenge. Unfortunatly, there will not be peace in that area until the people of the world acknowledge several facts... most of them are based around the fact that there are several outside instigators. With people from the outside putting in effort to continue hostilities not based on justice, but based on pure racist hate, there will never be peace. I believe that getting rid of outside influence would be the first place to start. Then addressing the fact that both parties have a legtimate right to the land. Then maybe addressing the fact that the west bank and the gaza strip are both entities that were not independant areas at any time before the wars against israel and specifically the Jews. Unfortunatly on the gaza strip and west bank issue, the "arabs" took the risk of all out war. When you wage all out war, (six on one) you risk lossing more than just the lives of your people. You also risk any assests you may have that would pose a possible threat in the future... none the less, any staging points that were used and captured during the intial war. I personally feel that as americans, most of us are so far removed from this situation that we will never really be able to put ourselves into a position to see both sides of the issue without the true essence of the deeper issues. With that in mind... I dont think Im gonna be coming back to this thread, but unfortunatly for everyone here, "I will return" for more on the politics of the world. see ya in the next one...

Right on shy, thanks. I was just thinking about that when I started to read your post. I remember seeing all those odd commercials that made no sense about the network being run by monkeys... oh yea, its april fools day. duh! Alright, prelim. reports of trigun are showing that even in the "edited, dubbed, american crap, that I know everyone will diss on," the show is awesome. Im at the commercial break and I can tell that the show has charactor that is only matched by some, and not anything near all.

Now I am confused... I just went to my dish listings for today to see the titles of the next kenshin and dbz... However I also checked for tomorrow... tuesday. There was nothing there. I couldnt really figure it out. Is there something special? Is there any reason the entire toonami block was missing? I sure hope so because showing only a few kenshins and stopping with dbz would piss me off greatly. Maybe even enough to kill with a reverse bladed sword. :D Could you guys give me a heads up on whats going on? Oh yea, tonight trigun starts... should be good. Talk to you guys as soon as I find out something or as soon as you guys respond with the deal... Thanks.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]Never EVER post anything like that again. EVER! That was completely racist, untrue, rude, completely ignorant, and completely uncalled for. It just shows how pathetic YOU are and how much of a bad example you are to your race and your religion. SHAME on you. It's thought like that that start senseless and meaningless wars and battles. This is your FINAL warning. If you followed your religion you should know things like that are completely against what you even stand for. Pathetic is the only word that comes to mind when I read what you said. Absolutely pathetic. [/B][/QUOTE] Sounds to me like tn summed it up perfectly. Im not sorry to say, but if anyone has hate in their heart, its not the "jews," its people like the fella that tn was responding to who have hate in their hearts. This stuff is a perfect example of why there will never be peace... I think the words of the person tn responded to and the man I am responding to now, are all that need to be said for anyone and everyone to side with the Israelis and not the terrorist. The post tn responded to is an example of hate... nothing more.

Well I can say for sure that the flood is on its way. I saw a commercial for this movie in theatres, so that is majorly important. Think about it... Akira has been rumored for movie theatres for the last 10 years, yet it is never in sight. However, this movie is on a low profile situation... gets an award and boom... movie theatres across the country. That is a good sign that this movie is gonna get serious press and its gonna get alot of newbies into anime. So like I said before... we will see. But I only see positive things on the horizon.

Please, what better way to side step a rediculus argument... "next argument... will we win?" That is crap. You are comparing the situation of ww2 to the genocide at halabja. You said I left myself open and all you did was show how simple minded you could be. The idea that there is no difference between those gas attacks and the Atomic bomb incident is rediculus. Does it occur to you that the Kurds were not a world super power acting as an aggressor in a world war that was responsible for the lives of millions? You have done nothing to any of my statments besides show just how off base your opinion is. Comparing the acts at places like halabja to the acts at hiroshima is plan out lacking in all respects. There is nothing similar between those two besides the fact that at both places, civilians died. Nothing more and to act as if they are the same only puts forth the idea that you need to read up on history... not me.

NO, you are still saying things in your post that are just plain bogus. If you agree with me than you must acknowledge that the kurds are innocents. Take this very specific point into account (which has been present in all of my argument to this very reply) The kurds I speak of are not the gun toting, ambitious, politically driven nationalist... oh no... This whole time I have specifically been talking about the kurds that were the victims of gas attacks by Saddam. This whole time, tn, on the other hand, has been speaking in a generalized manner about the kurdish people as a whole. As if he was speaking of the group based on the actions or should I say, alleged actions of a small percentage of these same people. (which goes against everything many of us, including him, have said in the past) Not once has anyone come forth with specifics of who they were talking about besides the examples I made about the people being gased. Simply stating that the kurds are not innocent is the same as anyone saying that any group of people are not innocent. Every ethnic group in the world has done something bad at one point... so What is the point of saying that groups are not innocents... We werent talking about armies of the kurdish people... we were talking about those people you say you saw. How in the world could you reffer to them as not being innocent. You address everything but that very point. You address the idea of what saddam did as being wrong. You address the idea of seeing the footage. You even address the disgust you felt when viewing this footage. Yet at no point did you address my specific point... Saddam commited genocide on a ethnic group of people. Worst of all is that these people were not even killed for the reasons of population or threat. Otherwise the genocide would have started long before the 8 years war. However, only in a historic sense over long periods of time did this occur. (which I dont even know of as fact) Only once the 8 years war occurred and the Kurds sided with the Iranians did Saddam begin his genocide. These people in this specific situation were killed because of their exercising the right to free speech. To voice their opinions on political issues and side with the views of an oppossing nation. Saddam would not allow this in a totalitarian state, and because of that, killed the people who were labeled as kurds. Not the men, or the soldiers, but the kurds themselves. Women and children. (which you saw for yourself and felt sick over, although I cant believe anyone who saw those women would honestly argue the side you have taken in this... what a disgrace to their memories.) Those people were innocent. That is the bottom line. Cloricus, what you said had everything to do with those people and saddams actions. (contrary to what you state in the above.. in bold writing) The statments tn made are directly related. Unless you are both arguing an oppossing side to me with no knowledge of what you are arguing, you must know that you are arguing the specific point that... Saddam was commiting genocide to subdue a legitmate threat to his government, and therefore was not commiting genocide on INNOCENT people. (which is flawed logic and not true) You have both tried to argue that the people of the kurdish regions killed by saddam were not INNOCENT and were actually a race of people threatening Saddams regime itself and jeopardizing the stability of Iraq itself. (you cloricus, being that you have openly taken the view of tn to represent your own, as you do support his view) These people were doing no such thing, they were women and children who were already struggling to provide for themselves none the less take militaristic action to create an individual and independant state of their own. Dont tell me your statment had nothing to do with the chemical attacks... it had everything to do with the chemical attacks.

Cloricus, I dont know what you honestly know of the Kurdish people and the chemical attacks on northern Iraq, but you should acknowledge the facts here. No matter how many of the kurdish people wanted to fight Saddam and his government the civilians of northern Iraq who were attacked by Saddam with his mixture of chemicals, no blanket statments you make can defend the actions taken by saddam or his motivations. Saddam attacked villiages and villiages are groups of people with no discretion about who is in them. Honestly, the more you and tn makes statments about the kurd's the more it becomes obvious that you havent seen that footage from halabja. I woulnt tell you how you should feel, but I can tell you that based on every idealistic theory and humanitarian ideal you have put forth in the past, you are being a heartless person. FIND THE FREAKING FOOTAGE. Just end this and see with your own eyes the women who died holding their young children. Frozen like the people killed in the volcano explosion at pompey. These people, no matter what you say were innocent. It is a sad, sad thing that you woulnt look or find the footage of these people. This stuff was horrible, I mean, disgusting. Your sitting there, hiding behind a computer screen and you will never see the things that these people saw, none the less the footage of the aftermath that I have seen. I just cant believe that people of the self proclaimed minority party would sit here and fight in defense of the reasoning behind Saddams genocide. (although the reasoning in this example isnt even the true reasoning.) Tell me cloricus, what were the "books" that you read to support the idea that the Kurds breed like rabbits and then move to different countries in an effort to overthrow governments. My basic point of this is the fact that right now, you and tn are defending the reasons supplied by Saddam to commite genocide. I will never accept that after what I have seen. Nor would you if you had seen these things.

Well I can tell you specifically why Saddam attacked the Kurds... The Kurds were attacked by Saddam because of their affiliations during the 8 years war. The Kurds sided with Iran and not Iraq. Saddam would not tolerate insubordination in his totalitarian regime. The Kurds were punished for their views. That is specifically why the Kurds were killed with a mixture of 3 chemical gases. (ceron (sp?), vx, and antrax) byw, did you have the chance to check out the link? It addressed the subject of the last few post and I would appreciate it if you would actually look at it and check it out. I saw that you said you would if you had time... so I figure, being that you responded again, you just might have had the time. What ever the case, I hope this ends our discussion of this particular subject within the great subject. I also want to mention that it does very much matter whether or not those people were innocent. To me, if no one else. I just dont feel the same about a person being murdered when they are completly innocent compared to a person who is stained with the blood of innocents. And so you know, that link from the state department has the history of the chemical attacks too. It is a brief history, but it might do you well to read it over... and anyone else planning to respond to this thread. It will provide you a basic knowledge of the history of Iraq and Saddam making it possible for you to put forth a more educated and hence, more respectable opinion.

I personally have no problem with the nudity as long as its not hentai. There is a major diferrence. However, Im the only person in my family that likes or even accepts anime... So I never watch it with my family, and when I do watch it infront of my fam. it always seems to be the stuff like dirty pair with major fanservice. Being a western family that rarely watches cartoons, it is always noticed when a cartoon has the proportions of a playboy model. Hence, I always watch anime by myself, that way I dont run the risk of having something like what asuka mentioned. Lord I know, I have had the same sort of thing happen and it is always rough when your family sees things like that. Any way, about the very pressence of nudity in anime... As it has been explained in the rest of this thread... There is a cultural divide in the world and this is just one more example of it.

Well I really do think you should stop with the kurds stuff if you really dont know about the gassing with the kurds. Talking about this sort of thing, when, by your own admission, you dont know... is just plain wrong from an intellectual side. I do appreciate your willingness to acknowledge these things, but you might want to think about them more before you get into it with people here, if your just gonna go back and say "I dont know anything about that." I do want to remind you, above all else, that you have been making blanket statments this whole time that it was the "kurds" and not the rebelious people who lived with the kurds that were the victims of Saddams genocide. Once again... Even with our disagreing here and there, and our agrement about other subjects, my respect for you grows when you are big enough to acknowledge it when you aren't as well informed as you could be. It takes a smart man to know the facts, but it takes an even smarter one to know when he is wrong. Those people in the kurdish villages like halabja were innocents through and through. I still want to mention that I do not believe saddams regime was threatend by the kurds. Maybe in just the same way that you dont believe Saddam is a threat to the world or the U.S.

Well take my credibility for what you want, but your professor is off. Unless of course just about any source you find is wrong... which includes my source... the dept. of state. However, I think you should take the time for yourself... Try this address... [url]Http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/chron.htm[/url] updated on march 19 2003. part of the International informations program and luckily, I can confidently put down that address or link it... how ever that comes out, because I dont think it would be illegal or against site rules to link an official gov. site that has free access. (as it was done with the federal electoral commitee a couple of months ago with another thread) So once again, say what you want about my credibility, but I would think about a new school if your paying for that teachers lectures... unless he was just talking about something that was off subject. (you know, like if he is a political person who teaches math or something) Any way... I also want to point out that the kurds are innocent people, but if you would get off your horse of defense you would take the time to recognize that no matter what the people of kurdistan do... the women and children killed in the gas attacks of the late 80's were all innocent people. (you should be ashamed for ignoring those people and counting them all as threats to saddam in one blanketing statment.) The kurds are innocent, no matter what you think of them... but obviously youve never seen that video footage from the village of halabja. But since Ive had to mention that forsaken place so many times, I suggest that everyone of you goes and does the best search possible for what happend there. There is video of the after math and factual reports from human rights orginizations. (mothers and children holding each other, and frankly, it fills me with hate, anger and horrible depression.) We shouldnt even talk about those people out of respect, but some of you just keep ignoring the truth of the matter... just how much must be done and shown to you before you will recognize what was done to the INNOCENT people who are kurdish. Another thing that should be acknowledged is the fact that the kurds arent the only ones getting picked on. Its anyone who isnt a ba'ath party member and even members of that party, who oppose saddam that are tortured and killed. I just cant believe that you would try to justify your statments against this war.. instead of talking about the war, why dont all of you anti war people just bash on bush himself in a personal matter. It would make your real feelings clear to the rest of us and it would keep this discussion respectful to the people who are being oppressed by saddam. I really hate getting into it like this with you tn, not because of clashing minds, but because I would actually like to know that you respect me, but more importantly, you like me as a person. I dont believe you do either, but I will always put my feelings about these political/social/economic issues on the boards in the open for you and everyone to hear. And when I do that, I will always try to stay away from "flaming" and insults that are in just plain bad taste. =========================================== hell yea, the link worked... and all you mods please have some mercy on me. Its a .gov link so it isnt a commercial site. Please allow it.

Well if you shot, you missed. Dont worry, you can always be against me however you wish, but when there are those who are way off base... Somebodies gotta bring them back to reality. Thanks for noticing though.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anime_gurl [/i] [B]If there's one thing I hate about this war, it's George W. Bush. I know he says all this crap about giving freedom to Iraqi people and stuff, while his top priority is to obtain the oil. (that's what I think) The only reason I support the war NOW is because of the American soldiers fighting for us. If you think about it, the U.S. is really a country full of bast****. Ahem. For everyone who thinks that we're NOT in this war for oil, I think you're all a bunch of naive idiots. Just because Bush wants oil doesn't mean he's a dictator or he wants to take over the world. Sure, maybe he doing it for America's economy, but it's still bad. Iraqi peopl don't even want our help. All that stuff on the news about Iraqi people cheering on America? Yea, about 1/40 of the population in Iraq believe in that. I think America has granted itself the title of the supreme country, and in that title they can whatever they want. I think the leaders want to feel important, so they help anyone even if they don't want help. And anyways, America's economy didn't begin to slump after 9/11. That is the most stupidest, most ridiculest thing I have EVER heard. The economy slumped after Bush became president, it just wasn't publicised as much then. ...you remind me of the US. [/B][/QUOTE] Most stupidest, most ridiculest...(perfect grammar on that one... :laugh: ) oil, oil, oil. Yea, this is the perfect example of what I like to see from my opponents on this stuff. The economy started slumping AFTER bush became president... (uhh... I dont think so, it actually started in 1999. But the whole calling everyone naive idiots... that does an excellent job of using logical fact to support your oil/economy argument. I gotta say, as a supporter of this effort, I would like to see no one besides you as the spokesperson for the anti-war movment. That would make things so much easier... man, where have you been this whole thread. I could have used the sort of material you put up in some great arguments. Well I think its about time I address what you said besides just pointing out the odd flaws in what you said. First off, if someone hadnt come foward, I think that it would safe for me to say... your flaming anyone and everyone from the U.S.A. That sort of thing isn't allowed. Second is the oil thing... now Im sure you've taken world economics, but I think I should refresh you on it. You see, if you want the price of an object to go down, you increase the amount of that object that is availible. That in mind, it would be twice as easy to get oil by just lifting the embargos against Iraq. Now about the Iraqi people... I think that before you comment much more on that, you should read "republic of fear." It explains the general treatment of the Iraqi people who aren't ba'athist. Citing horrible things that I will only mention because I believe you have never heard them. Giving sorces that are legitimate human rights orginizations, the author tells the stories of places like halabja and the forced confessions of parents through the torture of their children. (I woulnt even say what they did to the children out of respect) A background of Iraq given by books like this and dozens of other sources will give you an honest view of what the Iraqi people are really dealing with. That is why some of them like having the U.S. remove Saddam and some are just not interested, or plain out hate the western non-muslim world. (extremist such "ansar al islam," who Im sure you know of:D ) And finally, your point about the economies slumping... If you have been paying attention, which Im sure you have, you know for a fact that the economy started to slump in 1999, with the help of an inflated stock market based on failing internet buisness.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]PLEASE read my posts more carefully in the future. ... and that poses a threat to those countries, which is WHY Saddam is killing them. You all simply make it out as Saddam is killing innocent Iraqi citizens (which he does do) but when you refer to the genocide, you have to look at it in a view of war. Saddam sees these people as a threat to HIM and the rest of the middle east (which if he hadn't helped with the mass killings of them, they probably would run all of the middle east by now) You cannot say Saddam has done mass genocide of his own innocent people, because those are simply NOT the facts. It's a war with him, and most of the middles east, and the Kurds. You can't write that off as innocent Iraqi citizens dieing. Thats false. [/B][/QUOTE] I did read your post carefully, but here again you are justifying the genocide of these people by means of saying they are a threat to Saddam. The actual fact of the matter is that even when they are a percieved threat, the genocide seen in halbja is never acceptable. You are perverting the facts and are trying to say these people were not innocent citizens. They were. I also want to poin out that you are wrong about saddams rise to power. His uncle raised him but was never the leader of iraq. Heres the deal. A military coup puts Abdul Karim Qassim into power. Helped by Col. Abd al salam. The president is ousted... ba'athist take over for a short time. The col. comes back with military and takes out the ba'athist. Then the col. dies in 1964 in a helicopter crash. The col.'s brother takes over as president. This man is saddam's cousin. Saddam, now a prominent member of the ba'ath party becomes v.p. of the government. The brother/president is named "... bakr" (dont know the first name) Over time saddam orginizes his secret police and loyalist. Then he makes his move and forces his cousin out of the presidency... "he resigned." That is how saddam came to power. No handing down of any positions... all hostile coups and take overs. I have a link, that is to the state dept. timeline for Iraq, but I dont know how to link. Just find your way there if you can and you will see for yourself. Hope that all adds to the informative nature of this thread:whoops: