LittleFluteSan

It's iffy... there's alot of times where Puar get's jealous of Bulma and starts acting very girly, but from context of the show, they make him out to be male...

The fat/skinny buu merger music WAS very cool... I've thought that to myself several times... the other music that was very cool was the music when Goku was transforming to SSJ3 in front of Buu... nice score.... The original subs don't score that good... one of the very FEW instances of the dubs being better than the subs.. music... that, and being spoken in a language i can actually understand... :)

Whatever Baba is, she's the same race of being that merged with Old Kaioshin and made him look old and ugly. So she is definitly an otherworldly race. And Mr. Satan did NOT dodge all of Buu's attacks, Tien did. Satan just sat there holding the dog while Majin Buu's blasts (most likely) purposly missed Satan's ki.

Tien is the strongest Human. And Gohan has never died either.

The dubs are kind of butchered from the original version, yes, but I have to say that Goku's first transformation to SSJ-3 was actually better in English than in the original version. The music, the mood, the dialogue... one of the few instances where the dubs did the original some justice...

Wan is the dog. I don't know what they call him in english... been buying the buu saga dvd's.

Krillin's catch phrase in the movies (he says it in every single movie) is "Why only me??" i think he says it once or twice in the series. But every single movie, that's the moment of comedy for Krillin, when he gets pounded, he busts that out. In the Metal Cooler movie, when Piccolo and Gohan figure out to concentrate to kill the robots, Krillin tries it and gets pounded by the robot. As he's floating in mid air with a fist in his face, he says, "Why only me?" :) I'm not exactly sure of Tien's full involvement in the Buu saga because i haven't finished watching it, but he's still around after Gohan get's absorbed and Vegitto fuses together. not sure if he does anything, but at least he hasn't left. And, technically, he doesn't save Gohan's life. He saves Satan and Wan. Gohan uses the opportunity to free himself, tho.

Best of the Lesser Fighter's Moments? Well, Tien has always been my favorite, and i think the strongest, non saiyan fighter. Him using his Tri-Beam attack against Cell was the coolest moment in the Cell Saga. One of the few times a character had a better line in the english dub that the subtitled... "I might not be able to do anything, but I'll never find out if I just stand here." "I may just be a hole in the road to you, but it's gonna be a deep hole." "So much for the no-count." Also, his moment against Buu when he does the same thing to save Mr. Satan and Wan with his attack. Krillin's last shot at Garlic Jr, when he fired the blast at him, then turned it up at the last minuted and dropped it on him from above... that was pretty cool.... also, in the Return of Cooler movie, Krillin fighting the robots was very cool... he even got a few of them...

Actually, they DO dumb it down for kids, not so much dumb it down, but they make the language more applicable to modern american society... the reason why the dialogue in english is differenet from the Japanese dialogue has NOTHING to do with the language barrier. It's not like FUNimation has a couple of half-*** stoners who don't speak fluent japanese translating the stories. If that was the case, it wouldn't be necessary anyways, because the subs have all the dialogue already translated in the captions.

I remember hearing that the power of the dragon cannot exceed the power if it's creator. But I remember hearing it in enligsh, which means that it might not be true.... anything you hear in the english language may have been altered a little bit from the original story... I'm not sure what the original japanese says to describe the power of the Dballs, but I've always been skeptical about this power of the creator thing for that exact reason. How can someone get immortality from a mortal person? Also, none of the Z people were ever smart enough to try to use the dragonballs to grant wishes that might prevent any one of the countless earth-devastating tragedies that occured during the series.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SS3 Majin Goku [/i] [B] there's a reason for that ^_^ it's cause goku died when he hadn't trained much but piccolo and all them had trained ALOT so they made it quicker then goku ^_^ [/B][/QUOTE] Right... so theoretically, they all should have been stronger than Goku was when HE learned the Kaio-Ken technique... they should have been able to use it... But I also agree that most likely it was because their frail human bodies couldn't handle the strain of learning the technique... But, man, think about how much stronger they would be if they had learned it... Tien vs. Cell specifically comes to mind. I know he wouldn't have been able to defeat him, but Tien, at that level, with a 4x Kaio Ken... he might have been able to hurt Cell at least a LITTLE bit more... maybe take an ear or finger or something...

It's basically like watching a R-Rated movie on network television, except MORE. Sure, it's the same movie either way, but isn't it nicer to see for SURE what happens at every turn, instead of having those lazy cuts? And it sort of is a different story, because in the dubs, the language and explanation of things IS very different. I'm not saying you're a loser because you call him Hercule instead of Mr. Satan (well, I'm not doing it YET), I totally agree with your point about watching it in a language you can understand, but his name is NOT Hercule... it's Mr. Satan. Cartoons are all about the symbolism, whether it's a joke or serious symbolism... he was named Satan for a reason, and although I agree that we can't have little children running around in grade school saying, "Boy, I love that Satan," it's still pretty cool to see the original text with everyone in the Colesium screaming SATAN! SATAN!

Would you know where to get an online copy of the original Manga to read? that would be interesting...

I've been going to bookstores and looking for novelizations of the story, and I can only find books that go as far as the Namek Saga that have Toriyama's name on it. Did he write the entire DBZ series? I ask because of this: There seems to be a definite break in the themes of the story after the Namek Saga, through Garlic Jr. I guess, but once the Trunks Saga starts, there is most definitly another creative force at work there because alot of the themes that were HUGE points in the Namek Saga that were completely ignored in the later sagas. And the way the story was written, it kind of seems like everything builds up to the fight on Freiza, and once he dies, that's a very definite conclusion to the story. My theory is that DBZ was supposed to end with Freiza, but continued due the the popularity/marketability of the story and characters. I'm not as huge into all the online type stuff as some of y'all (net surfing blows at 56.6k modem speed), so does anyone know if indeed someone else joined the creative writing team of DBZ after Namek/Garlic Jr. Saga?

Very difficult to determine how many in total because of that wild card of race that they never explain. The people that Krillin, Bulma and Gohan find on the fake namek. All of Freiza's minions? Some are humanoid, but not from earth, so they might not actually be human. Then he had a bunch of other lackeys ,like the people Vegeta kills while looking for Goku, or when he gets out of the rejuvination tank on Freiza's ship, or when he goes back to Freiza's ship to change clothes after his loss to Recoom. Boy, Vegeta sure did kill alot of Freiza's people on Namek. All the people in the base watching Freiza lose to SS Goku (whose power subsequently blew up the base from a million miles away). Then there's each of the Ginyu Force members (which Vegeta also killed... I sense a theme). Each Ginyu guy was it's own race. Later on there's Babidi, who knows what he is. Pui Pui, Yakon, the guys that 'feed' Yakon. There's SOOOOOOO many different races, it's almost impossible to count.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SS3 Majin Goku [/i] [B] [color=rainbow]i think he learned it in DBZ when training but i'm not sure he might have known how in DB but didn't fly (shrugs) i have no clue[/color] [/B][/QUOTE] Adn in early DBZ they didn't fly very often... they knew how, but for some reason, didn't. At least not like they did once they got to Namek and from there on out.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SS3 Majin Goku [/i] [B]please do correct me if i'm wrong [color=blue][i]but i think that the soukidan is Instant Transmission, please do correct me if i'm wrong and don't get pissed i'm not good wit japanese attack names and character names[/color][/i] [/B][/QUOTE] I don't speak Japanese, but I don't think the soukidan is the instant transmission (or Instantaneous Movement, as it's called in the subs). I think it's something else.

Goten was born during the seven years after the Cell saga. He was most likely conceived during the 10 days before the Cell Saga (after Trunks was defeated and Cell decided to give them some time to prepare for the Cell Game.) This most likely means that Goten was conceived by a Super Saiyan Goku (since he never returned to normal during those 10 days).

Freiza's Japanese voice IS the baddest voice I've ever heard. I mean, I actually had nightmares about it sometimes. He was very sinister in the original dub, not the effeminite sissy nancy boy he was in the Enligh version. As for King Cold, I've always wondered about him. When Freiza is on Namek fighting Piccolo, Freiza's form 2 is what King Cold looked like normally. When the Z Fighters first encountered them coming from space, they all agreed that Cold's power was as high if not higher than Freiza's. That being said, wouldn't it stand to reason that King Cold would have 2 more (3 if you count Cooler's extra form) transformations to go before he reached his ultimate power? I can understand that Trunks killed him before he could transform any more, but why wouldn't King Cold have already been his highest form? (All this goes to prove my theory that the story of DBZ was probably supposed to end after the death of Freiza.)

Now, the debate rages on about Tien, Yamcha, and Piccolo not being strong enough to learn the Kaio-Ken. I can't ignore the comment that maybe King Kai didn't want to teach it to someone evil like Piccolo MAYBE, but I don't think it was because they weren't strong enough. If you remember, the three of them made it down Snake Way in half the time of Goku, and they were able to beat Bubbles and Gregory faster than Goku as well. Then, the Ginyu force showed up, and Yamcha and Tien were able to handle them no problem. Now, Goku already knew the Kaio Ken when he beat them, so that meant that they were much stronger than Goku was when he fought Vegeta, in essence, proving that Yamcha and Tien could have beaten Vegeta back on Earth. That should definitly make them strong enough to at least LEARN the Kaio-Ken.

I haven't seen the original Japanese version of these episodes yet (they've only released the DVD's up until Buu's first separation), but in the dub, Old Kai says something like, "Just trigger your Super Saiyan transformation, and it'll happen." I think his Mystic power overrides his SSJ. Something else about Mystic Gohan I've wondered... the first time he tapped into his power, when he got mad at Old Kai, his eyes went blue. But (and correct me if I'm wront) when he did it again right before leaving otherworld, his eyes did NOT turn blue. Hmm?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lady Macaiodh [/i] [B] [COLOR=darkblue] so basically he sacrificed the lives of his family & friends & everyone on earth so he could fight w/ vegeta... and that's... just... DUMB! more proof of the idiocy of goku. (no offense to goku fans, granted, he's a great fighter, but about dumb as a post.) :laugh:[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE] Actually, he's already almost sacrificed the lives of everyone on earth just to fight somene. In the Trunks saga, Bulma says, "Hey, why don't we just use the dragonballs to find Dr. Gero before he completes them and take them out then?" Vegeta immediatly says no to that plan, but then Bulma asks Goku, to which he responds, "Well, actually, I want to fight them too." He didn't know how strong the andriods were, so he was taking a chance that the earth would be wiped out, but he figured he was tougher. Same thing with Buu. He figured Vegeta was the toughest fighter right in front of him, so he fought him, and figured if Buu was hatched, he could handle him. Goku, Fighting Genius, Stategy Fool.

I'll admit that most likely Vegeta and Goku were even at SSJ2, but ultimatly Goku was stronger with the SSJ3 ace in the hole, but no more beating a dead horse with that one... And Lady Mac, you said, "if goku was really smart, he would have went ssj3 immediately, knocked out vegeta in a few seconds, powered back down, then left to help the others so he could hurry up & go home. i mean, he hasn't had any sex w/ his wife for 7 years & he has never really hung out w/ his son, & he's going to sit there fighting w/ vegeta all day?? come on, people, if that's true then goku is even dumber than i thought." Those are all really good points, yes, but you have to remember... what is a Saiyan's favorite thing in the world? Fighting, and especially fighting someone TOUGH. When ChiChi and Goku were kids dating, she said, "let's do the funnest thing we can do". She she puckered her lips, expecting Goku to kiss her... what did he do? He threw a punch at her, and they spent the rest of the day fighting. Is Goku a fool? Absolutely! A Mad-Saiyan-Fighting Fool! :)

And as much as I hate to argue with a moderator, SuperSaiyan, your colleagues present good points... Vegeta did NOT beat Goku in any way, shape, or form. They were evenly matched as SSJ2's, but I think Goku had the definite advantage over Vegeta in that fight. He'd been SSJ2 longer, trained harder, and had 7 years in otherworld fighting people tougher than Vegeta (like Pikkon, who was able to beat Cell with ease, something Vegeta probably wouldn't have been able to do until Babidi took him over.) Training with strong people makes YOU stronger. The other point you made about Goku going SSJ3 not having an effect on his time on earth... King Kai and Baba both made mention of his time on earth being shortened due to his SSJ3 transformation. Theoretically, at the time he left, he still should have had like 10 hours of time, but because of the transformation, Baba told him it was shortened to 30 minutes.

I'd agree with the consensus... The biggest turning point for Vegeta was in the Buu saga right before he killed himself. I look at it this way: Vegeta, as he said, had allowed himself to be domesticated and enjoy the life he had built for himself on earth. But, even in his contented life, he had absolutely no desire greater than beating Goku. So, when the opportunity to become Majin appeared, he welcomed the chance to become a blackhearted, evil person again, AND gain the power to beat Goku. First, he still could not beat Goku, and secondly, even though he had succumb to evil, he still had these feelings of fondness. This, I think, was the major turning point for him. The moment that Goku questions his convictions, Vegeta realizes that even though he allowed himself to become Evil again, he still had that love for his family, thus leading him to sacrifice himself in his only selfless act of his life.