LittleFluteSan

As far as the TV part of it goes, I remember that before they showed Android Saga in the Fall of 2000, they showed DBZ start to finish on Toonami, and when the time crunch for new episodes started to crack down, they showed 2 DBZ's a day, sometimes more (I remember WAY back summer 2000, when they were showing an entire Toonami lineup of DBZ.)

I'm on the "either way" boat. I originally watched the Dubs, and watched them for about a year, and LOVED DBZ. The one day a friend of mine bought me one of the DVD's with the original dialogue/subtitled. The original Japanese subs are better for a number of reasons: .1) The dialogue is better. "You think you can beat me with that power? You must think you're a big shot" But, in japanese is "You have sullied the name of your people, and your death will be celebrated by the good of the universe." Now, that's not an exact quote, but you get the picture. The lines have more of a poetic noir-samuri-code of honor feel to them than the modernized english dialogue. 2) The voices are better. Freeza's english voice sucked. Vegeta's voice sucks (you don't need to sound like Wolverine to be a tough bad guy. That hoarse, stereotypical "bad guy" voice ruins the whole effect). Hercule's voice sucks. Most of them are alright, but the tones of the original Japanese actors... awesome. I have absolutely no idea what they're saying, but the voice effect is solid. 3) The editing and stuff. I guess this is everyone's big debate. I mean, the show was cool without the blood and guts and stuff, but I like seeing what gets cut. Editing shows is like tearing pages out of a book, you dont' get the whole effect of the story. Why are the dubs good? 1) A language you can understand: I can't tell you how much MORE attention you can put into the art and animation of the battles and situations when you dont' have to be constantly looking down at the bottom to read what they're saying. You don't lose little bits of fights from reading subs. 2) American writers. FOr the most part, the american dub writers cheese it up with pop culture lexicon. But every now and again, the new writing gives some characters (in particular Vegeta and Android 16 some great lines). In Japanese, what Vegeta says is more ruthless and holds that noir-samuri movie feel, but what he says in English is just BAD ***. Anyone who's seen the fight with Pui Pui in both languages can attest to that. And that's it... those are the only two good points I can see about the subs...

That's a good point... although, the scouters and Goku's ability to sense Ki are similar, it can be argued that the Scouters (mechanical in nature) can be programmed to find any energy/Ki source, while the Earthlings ability to sense Ki may be restricted to Life Energy. As far as using the RoS&T to accelerate the Dragonballs, I guess they could figure out a way to use that to their advantage, but if they were smart enough to figure that out, they would have been smart enough to figure out the 10,000 OTHER ways they could have used the Dragonballs to prevent the distruction of millions of human lives/earth MANY times over. I mean, c'mon... if they were smart enough, they could have just wished for, I dunno, Tien or someone they could trust (since Piccolo didn't have everyone's full trust back then) immortality. Then it wouldn't matter if Vegeta and Nappa were stronger than him, he'd win EVENTUALLY. Or at any time subsequent to that, wish Goku immortality, or wish for Cell to be destroyed, etc.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SSJ Pud [/i] [B]I dunno about other people but i have never heard someone say aboot and i myself do not say it. BTW we do not all live in Igloos or hunt polar bears either. :p [/B][/QUOTE] Whoever said that didn't know Canadians very well... All Canadians play hockey and drink Lebatt's. Duh..

I'm gonna go with Public Opinion so far on this one... If I see Freddy Prinze, Jr. and Mattew Lillard as Goku and Vegeta, someone at Fox Pictures has to die.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kaioshin [/i] [B] [COLOR=teal]That's true![/COLOR]:laugh: [COLOR=teal]I thought in America you guys were much further ahead than us UKers?[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE] I thought so too... In America, Vegeta's "Final Attonement" ep was the last one shown on TV, although available for sale are the video's for everything up until Gohan returns from otherworld back to earth. The rest of the Buu saga won't be shown on TV until Septeber, picking up with Buu healing Babidi to the end. The UK has gone as far as the puppy being shot on TV?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i] [B][color=indigo]His power would not have increased after coming back from the dead. Keep in mind that when he died he was allowed to keep his body. He had already healed from his wound of Piccolo's makankosappo, so his body could heal no more after being wished back. Being dead is not a wound, it is merely a state of being.[/color][/B][/QUOTE] Which kind of makes you wonder... during the fight with Freeza, recovering from near death to increase your power level was a hot topic of discussion, even a battle strategy of Vegeta's at one point... but later on in DBZ, that fact is completely ignored. When Vegeta recovered from his fight with 18, he should have been stronger many times over, and should have been able to fight her again and win, theoretically. And when he was AGAIN defeated by Cell, he was healed and should have been even stronger still. I guess you have to overlook continuity errors like that sometimes...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ssj3 [/i] [B] piccolo killed babi-dee, not buu. so babi-dee would not be wished back, and dabura could easily be defeated by any of the saiyans. i don't know why i'm posting this, it realy doesn't make a diffrence. the point is in the end everything turned out fine. [/B][/QUOTE] Actually, Buu did kill Babidi. Piccolo sliced him in half, Buu healed him, then Buu crushed his head following his fight with SSJ3 Goku.

Ya, I concur... they've made mention to Roshi being Baba's sister a few times that I can recall...

There's something else that noone seems to be taking into consideration when talking about the powers of Goku in comparison to his class designation and the other Saiyans. None of the other Saiyans, or noone in the universe for that matter, that didn't know about the Nameks and the Dragonballs had NO IDEA that people can be brought back to life when killed. Goku dies, not even strong enough to beat Radditz. He goes to otherworld and trains with King Kai to increase his strength and learn the Kaio-Ken and Spirit Bomb. In the regular sceme of things, the Saiyans would have had no way to predict that he'd receive this other-worldly training. Even still, he was only just as strong as Nappa. It was only using the Kaio-Ken that he was able to beat Vegeta. In addition to that, when you watch the first Brolli movie, they make mention that Kakarrot has a low fighting power, but he possesed a strong fighting spirit. That strong fighting spirit, coupled with King Kai's training, helped him surpass the boundaries of being a Third Class Saiyan. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Nekkyo [/i] [B]i agree. when Vegita and Goku fought during the Majin Buu saga, Vegita beat the tar out of Goku. Goku was left laying on the ground while Vegita went to go confront Fat Buu. :blush: and i'm kinda happy to see that i'm not the only one that uses the words Oozaru or Genki-Dama. [/B][/QUOTE] For the record, Vegeta did not beat the tar out of Goku. In fact, Goku was just PLAYING with Vegeta to make the fight interesting. If Goku's true purpose while fighting Vegeta was to defeat him and subdue him, AT ANY MOMENT DURING THE COURSE OF THAT FIGHT, Goku could have just gone SS3 and beaten Vegeta in seconds. I think he kept it even at SS2 because: 1) for the sport of it, and 2) he didn't want to beat/kill Vegeta, he wanted to revert him to good. [color=indigo]Please refrain from double posting. Just go back using the edit button.[/color]

Another Buu theory as to how he got so powerful... Just like Cell, When Buu absorbs someone, he absorbs their power as well. So how powerful is Majin Buu? Let's break it down. Gohan SSJ2 filled up less than half of his full power. So about 2.3 Gohan's is Buu's full power. Then, be absorbs Dabura, who was about as powerful as Cell. Then, he absorbs a BUNCH of people (remember how tough Cell got between his first fight with Piccolo after merging with Kami and then when Cell beat Piccolo and fought 16. He got that tough just by absorbing humans). Then he splits, and absorbs Fat Buu, becoming Super Buu That's as far as I've seen of the Buu saga, so at the time that he goes up to the lookout, he's at tough as 2 Gohan's, a Cell, thousands of people, and Fat Buu. Now, theoretically, when you split forms, you're not as powerful as the whole of yourself, but I don't think the decrease in power due to splitting was considerable. Then he absorbs Mystic Gohan, Gotenks, and Piccolo, making him a tough little S.O.B. How's my theory?

Someone mentioned something about Goku never beating Vegeta when he went Majin to increase his power... True, Goku never did actually beat Vegeta, but the reality is that Goku was toying with Vegeta. He was INFINITLY stronger than Vegeta because he had the power to go SSJ3 all along. When Goku fought Yakon, Vegeta sensed that Goku could ascend, and had incredible power. He had no idea how deep that well went. So did he cheat to go 2, and beat Goku? Yes, but only because he knew Goku was so much stronger than what he was at the time. Would he have even TRIED to fight Goku if he knew about SSJ3? Who knows...

It's actually kind of fun to watch the movies and try to place when in the series they would have hypothetically happened... but for the most part, there are paradoxes between the series and movies. For instance, in the Metal Cooler movie, the Z warriors are sent to New Namek to save it from the Big Gheti Star. Who sends them to Namek? Dende, the guardian of earth. But Gohan cannot turn Super Saiyan in this movie, and Dende became Guardian of Earth after Goku emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time, at which Gohan was already a Super Saiyan.

Personally, I think it sucks. I tried watching Cooler's Revenge in English on DVD, and had to immediatly switch to Japanese due to these horrible songs. And I didn't even TRY to watch Lord Slug in English, because I heard ahead of time that Deftones were doing a song. I think for something like DBZ, a story about good vs. evil, honor vs. tyranny, etc. a "catchy, modern" soundtrack detracts from the feel of the film. Stick to having a score... a score can add that dramatic element or increase tension, etc. without making it all "trendy"... but, it is all about the dollar signs, unfortunatly.

As mentioned before, the only time I can remember Vegeta being a "crybaby" was in that first Brolli movie... I mean, Picollo had to DRAG HIM BY THE HAIR, and insult his Saiyan heritage to get him to join the fight. As for cheating, eh, it's iffy. I mean, for all intents and purposes, Vegeta should be dead. I don't think he was resurrected on Namek on purpose, it was just a byproduct of saving all the Namekians. So from that point on, Vegeta knew that he was always weaker, which is why he used outside stimuli to enhance his power. It's not as glamorous as powering up in battle for a purpose, but it IS means to and end.

The way I see it, the main, original story of DBZ should have ended with Freeza being killed by Goku, and Goku ascending into Super Saiyan and being the only Super Saiyan. Noone had transformed into a Super Saiyan in generations because they needed to be like Goku, and most of the Saiyans were like Vegeta. Everything else that happened after that (trunks, cyber freeza, vegeta gong SS, etc) was written just because they needed a story to continue the series past the death of Freiza. And it wouldn't have been as fun if Goku was the only SS. They brought Freeza back to life as a point of reference. In the last saga, Freeza was the most powerful being in the universe, and Trunks the SS easily dispatched him, as Goku did on Namek, but he was still totally unable to kill the andriods. The point to all this? In DBZ, Freeza saga, when Goku went into the lava, he was totally able to survive that because he was SOOO incredibly powerful, the most powerful warrior in the history of the universe, etc.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JCBaggee [/i] [B][color=red][size=3]Actually, I'm not sure. But my first clue that it's not painted on was the fact that it closes...[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE] The ohter neat thing about Tien's eyes is that if you look closely enough, whenever his 2 eyes look one way, the eye on his head looks the other. Neato.

Most of Gohan's power comes from his battle rages. In the english version, they don't dwell on it too much, but I know Vegeta mentions it during the fight with Freeza, briefly. And when they're in the spaceship, right before stage one Vegeta says something like "Gohan has been to busy going on dates to do any real training." In the original Japanese, Vegeta says something like "Me and Kakarrot are the higher powers now, but then again, all Gohan has to do is go into a rage and he's right there with us." And that's how it's been all throughout DBZ... Goku and Vegeta are always stronger, but when Gohan get's pissed, he surpasses everyone.

I didn't start watching DBZ until the Freeza Saga, but from what I understand, Cartoon Network has shown every episode from the arrival of Raditz to wherever they are in the Buu saga now.

Despite the obvious reference to the devil in Mr. Satan and Videl, I don't think it's literally about the devil. Actually, I think Mr. Satan is AMERICA. Just think about it, clownish windbag bufoon, believing they are this great institution, when in reality, we just have the money and prestige and that's it. That's just my ultra political viewpoint.

Gohan is the only character in the entire DBZ universe that never dies. Every character we meet, talk to, have contact with, etc. dies except him. But, as I was typing this message, I paused to make sure that my declarative statement was correct, I realize... Kaioshin never dies either. So Gohan and Kaioshin. (I've never seen GT or DB)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JCBaggee [/i] [B][size=4][color=red]We never said he didn't, but not to the extent anyone else does. He usually keeps that side of himself hidden. [/size][/color] [/B][/QUOTE] I don't think he keeps tha side of himself hidden at all... Vegeta being a vile, murderous animal was just a condition of his upbringing. Vegeta eventually becomes sorta good. But his Saiyan instincts to fight are just as strong as Goku's later on, even though he's softened. Goku's fighting instincts and just lust for fighting are always there, but he was raised on earth, meaning he never became ruthless like vegeta. But he doesn't hide his Saiyan fighting instincts at all. He charges into battle just like a "stupid monkey", as Freiza would say.

Actually, I think Goku shows his Saiyan side all the time. He's not as bloodthirsty and malicious as Vegeta, but he has a constant desire for battle, and rises to meet every challenge presented before him. Those are both Saiyan traits. He was raised as an earthling though,by a nice old man, which is why he isn't a savage killer. Make no mistake, though, his Saiyan traits are prevalent...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sephiroth [/i] [B]I liked movie 6 better, where it had koola bot, vegita and gokou double teamed him, cool it was.... [/B][/QUOTE] The battle between Piccolo, Krillin, and Gohan vs. the Robots was fantastic. And the instant transmission fight.

I just saw the next six eps after Vegeta's "Final Attonement" (which is where they stopped on Cartoon Network until fall 2002). Good stuff... It's mostly planning for the war ahead, alot like what happened after 16,17, and 18 beat up Vegeta and the Z-Fighters and flew off, leaving the Z warriors to come up with a plan. If anyone who hasn't seen these eps has questions, I'd be more than happy to provide answers. (I'd never seen them, being as I have a horrible internet connection and no time to look for/download future eps.)