Rune

I don't have much swag to speak of, unfortunately. Giant Hamtaro plushie, though. It's pretty large, about ten inches to one foot tall? Can't say I sleep with it, though. It's sitting here in the cubbyhole I made just for it on my computer desk, looking out upon the world and giving me a thumbs-up if life ever gets me down.

[quote name='Lawliet']There needs to be a list released of how strong each person is, or someone needs to make one... but that'll never happen.[/quote] That sounds like a challenge, my good sir and/or madam.

[quote name='Magus'][SIZE=1][COLOR=green]Alright people. [B]Suikoden 5[/B], I need some opinions about the game. Hardly anyone talks about the game, or rather, I've run into more stuff about Suikoden 2 (which I am not dishing $100+ for) and 3. And to be honest I'm split on which one to get (3 or 5), but I'm leaning heavily towards 5 because I like how it looks. (I've yet to see how S3 looks)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote] I have Suikoden III through V. Both are decent games in their own right (in my opinion), but I personally lean towards five. While Suikoden III has the split perspective thing going on, giving you a closer look at different sides of the story, it also serves to distance you somewhat from the storyline since the timeline doesn't remain completely intact and your focused character changes at times. I won't forget the time I found some rare armor from a powerful enemy I happened to find while journeying fifty miles from the place I was supposed to. Turned my Chris into a beast. Number Five's battle system has also gotten a few new features, including the formation system and some new runes. The storyline itself irritates at parts, and there are a few main characters that come across as annoying instead of compelling and fall short on redeemable qualities at times, but I certainly don't regret my time spent with the game. It's fun. It's not going to invoke nearly the same reaction as Suikoden II, but it's not bad. Oh, and the main character is a male. Bishounen, but male all the same. Don't be fooled by the cover like I was >.

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]No worries, having read this post I see now I was misunderstanding what you meant by growth so that's where the crossed wires are coming from.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Yes, I noticed this as well, but thought better against bringing it up in my last post. I consider "growth" to be wholly internal improvements whereas you are applying "growth" to mean "Battle Proficiency". My growth translates into battle proficiency later on down the line but limits the number of external variables. I measure it like this because it's far more reliable, in my opinion. If two Ichigo clones were to go at each other, but one had Bankai only and one had Shikai only, then the Bankai Ichigo would clearly win, even though they are both essentially the same. This means that Ichigo's "growth" would be wholly based upon his different states -- if he activates hollow, then he improves. If he loses it, he declines. Considering that the base state of Ichigo in either form can be the same with varying battle proficiencies, I try to avoid basing it off of that and consider it a separate value. In the case of Bankai Ichigo vs Shikai Ichigo, their growth is the same, their base is the same, but the external variable (their Zanpakutou) modifies the base in such a way that the Bankai Ichigo has a far greater "Battle Proficiency". [/SIZE][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]If we're arguing base reiatsu, such as demonstrated by Kenpachi I think there's still an argument to be made that Ichigo has still developed substantially. Like Kenpachi Ichigo's zanpakutou is in a constant shikai state because neither of them are capable of limiting their power that much to fully seal their swords.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1] Ichigo has always had an enormous amount of Reiatsu, as evinced in the abnormally large size of his normal Zanpakutou. If you recall, Rukia herself stated that she'd never seen a Zanpakutou that large before. Now, considering that not every shinigami starts out with full control over their reiatsu, I would bet that she had some run-ins with a few good number of shinigami students that had sizable swords, and that she was not only impressed, but downright "O-O" when she noticed his sword, I believe it is safe to say that Ichigo has shown a much, much greater base reiatsu than anyone else Rukia has seen (although, this is only what Rukia has *seen*) when starting out. This is also the reason why he is unable to seal his sword once more. It is not so much a matter of he has MOAR MOAR MOAR Reiatsu, but that he *still* lacks the fundamental control necessary to seal it. To put it one way, Yamamoto's sword is almost always in its sealed state, and Yamamoto is not lacking in Reiatsu at all. [/SIZE][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]Equally we know Ichigo's bankai doesn't actually give him a power increase, it allows him to wield his cleaver-like zanpakutou in a much more combat-friendly daito form (admittedly this is a change of medium, Kenpachi is more fortunate his shikai lends itself well to sword-battles) as well as giving him a phenomenal speed boost.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]Actually, Ichigo's Bankai does give him a power increase in the form of enhanced reaction time and a far more focused reiatsu. Because Ichigo lacks a sizable amount of control over his reiatsu, he is able to neither seal his sword or use his reiatsu to its fullest potential, as it is constantly spilling forth from him and, typically, just not used correctly. By switching into Bankai, the Zanpakutou essentially *forces* Ichigo's reiatsu to become more focused, easier to use, and overall just brings Ichigo's weakest area up to par. Even if he is operating on the same level of reiatsu, the amount of reiatsu he can effectively use at once, and the efficiency at which he uses it, is increased *entirely* due to his bankai state. There is a reason he cannot reach the same speeds in shikai as he can in bankai. There is a reason why his Getsuga Tenshou is more powerful in his bankai state. I must also remind that the form a Zanpakutou takes is largely based upon the wielder as well. I cannot, for the life of me, see Ichigo wielding a weapon like Zabimaru, for example. A "cleaver" shikai is probably the best form for Ichigo's fighting style and personality. The cleaver lacks a guard (prioritizes overpowering offense) and is weighted in such a way with a long handle to emphasize two-handed grips with a possible one-handed style. It has no real hilt or sheathe, with nothing but a cloth acting as both. In the end, it emphasizes combat above all, and an aggressive style, at that. [/COLOR][/SIZE][quote="Gavin"][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] Since his fight with Ulquiorra, perhaps even before, from Ichigo's discussion with Unohana we know that Ichigo's base reiatsu has grown to the point it is twice that of a regular captain at full power.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] I am also skeptical about Unohana stating that Ichigo's base reiatsu has grown to be twice that of a regular captain. I do recall her saying that it was incredibly high, but not twice as much. If I do recall, he actually stated that the outfit he wore was a good indication of his power level, and that when he stated this, Unohana didn't believe him because he was already at Captain level strength. Unfortunately, we do not know just how strong of an indicator his outfit truly is or when this plot device really began to take effect. Ichigo has fought many, many times in bankai state but I have very rarely (if ever?) seen him start stripping down. It feels more like a ploy by Kubo to simply show off Ichigo's prowess in a sort of... non-abrupt way. It's much easier to have Ichigo give that explanation and Unohana say "what? But he's already *this* powerful..." than to have Ichigo say "Oh man, I'm only at about twenty percent of my power level, think you can patch me up?" I wouldn't put too much stock in this, as it's very unreliable. We *can* take from it that Ichigo has more reiatsu than a typical captain, however. That much we can do. How much reiatsu did Ichigo have in the beginning? Well, he was very unskilled in the way of fighting with a sword, and his reiatsu control was pretty much nonexistent, but I'd say that Ichigo had at least lieutenant-level reiatsu when he first became a shinigami. At least. Which means that Ichigo has gone up from lieutenant to captain class. ~~~ And, yes, Ichigo has improved substantially in his swordplay, and, while I think his non-bankai flash-steps may not match up to the more advanced captains, I will say that he can perform them well. I can say the same for his Getsuga Tenshou, that it has improved quite a bit. But is Ichigo really reaching his potential? To be 100% honest, I vastly prefer Hollow Ichigo to Ichigo, and it has been shown time and time again that Hollow Ichigo is far more skilled than Ichigo in all areas. [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black]Ichigo still has yet to use his Shikai in a ranged style, something that Hollow Ichigo used without a problem during one of their earlier meetings. Hollow Ichigo was even able to take on Byakuya, unlike regular Ichigo, and it can be argued that Ichigo won that battle only because of Hollow Ichigo taking control.[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Black] They share they same body and base reiatsu, it's just that one of them knows how to use it to more effect. I consider Ichigo's triumph over him to be a depressing fluke and the hollow personality to be a constant reminder that while Ichigo has high reiatsu and a powerful Zanpakutou, his efficiency in using them are depressingly low compared to what they could be. ~~~ [/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1]As for the off-screen power-up of Kenpachi... not quite. [URL]http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/311/15/[/URL] Kenpachi knew Kendo before he entered the Gotei 13, apparently. Before he was allowed his captain's position. [/SIZE][SIZE=1][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1']I suppose it just boils down to the balance of souls between worlds again, much like the Quincy were destroyed because they were annihilating rather that purifying Hollows and therefore destroying the souls that the Hollow had consumed as well Hollows negatively affect the balance because they don't replace the souls they consume over their lifetime until they're purified. The would simply consume until there were no souls left other than Hollows, whether they are good or evil doesn't really factor into it in that case, it's a simple case of necessary preservation.[/SIZE][/quote]And, yet, Shinigami don't exactly reincarnate into humans again, do they? Just when does a soul in Soul Society reincarnate at all? What would happen if the shinigami's natural enemy, hollows, were to die off? Would the number of shinigami grow until the very balance of souls tilted? Hollows are a natural part of existence, just as natural disasters are. Things that may seem destructive are actually very important. Just to give one example, in the past, there was a very serious stomach problem circulating among humans. Rather than in the poor, however, as is common with diseases and illness, it was found primarily in the elite and rich. What had happened is that their incredibly pure drinking water contained so little bacteria that their stomach's natural defense against the bacteria no longer had anything to work against. Without the bacteria, the immune response essentially began to target an otherwise healthy stomach, causing great pain to the victim. [/SIZE][SIZE=1] [quote="Gavin"][SIZE=1]Personally I think he only put his hand on his sword to defend himself if the Vizard proved to be out for revenge against the Shinigami forces present. I don't think it'd be mutually exclusive for him to feel that the Vizards were unduly sentenced to death by Central 46 while at the same time trying to work out if they were enemies or not. Remember that four of the Vizards had served as apparently loyal captains and officers under Yamamoto until they were experimented on by Aizen and forced to flee with Urahara. Given he seemingly forgave Ukitake and Kyouraku for standing against him over the execution, as well as accepting Ichigo's nature and working with him, I can't see him ordering the deaths of the Vizard unless they proved dangerous.[/SIZE][/quote] Actually, I do believe all of the original Vizards served under Yamamoto either as captains or lieutenants.[/SIZE] [SIZE=1]And, yes, that is what I am referring to -- he obviously felt he may have some reason to defend himself and, while it may be a stretch to say that he would try to exterminate them given the other circumstances, it is hard to say that he sympathizes with them. I simply don't see that fitting with Yamamoto's character, to be honest.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]All that said, you've taken my points out of context. I was making the argument that it appears over the course of the manga that facing a similar type of reiatsu to one's own increases one's growth and development. If you want to refute that, refute that, please don't just pick at segments out of my argument and then take them out of context Rune.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1]I was hoping to bring the validity of the characters' growth you mentioned in question, actually, although I hadn't really tried to refute the similar reiatsu growth point. I saw your argument detailing that they had grown and used that as the core of my response. Even though what I had to say had roots in all of what you said as a whole, it was, aside from what I quoted, found in individual sentences inside paragraphs instead of the entire paragraphs themselves. If I were to quote every individual sentence (heaven forbid the entire paragraph), the number of individual sentences would have been too substantial and increased the size of an already large post while bogging down the part of your argument I paid closest attention to whilst responding. I do apologize if it appears I took pieces out of your argument to pick at, or brought them out of context (I thought I had addressed them with its original context in mind?) as that was never my intention. As for artificial growth, I consider activations of Shikai and Bankai, regardless of whether they belong to Ichigo or not, to be artificial as they are sustained only by external influences. To give an example, in order to "develop" your proficiency in Kido, you must either A) Increase the efficiency at which you release your energy B) Increase the maximum amount of energy you can generate C) Increase your understanding of how each kido functions Which, to me, means A) Technique B) Power C) Knowledge By going from Shikai to Bankai, you are not increasing any of the above internally, you are simply changing the medium through which it is expressed. If Ichigo's Shikai had a maximum output of 50% of Ichigo's power, and Ichigo's Bankai had a maximum output of 90% of his power, then you would see a marked increase in his combat ability even if he, himself, has not improved in the slightest. This is due not to his own *growth*, but to the increased efficiency of his weapon. We see this present in Kenpachi all of the time. His efficiency against Ichigo shot up considerably when he removed his eye patch (removing an accessory that reduced his power), and also when he began using standard Kenpo against Nnoitra (fighting with a more "advanced" form and technique). His internal power did not change -- Kenpachi always had that same amount of reiatsu, even before he removed the eye patch, and Kenpachi didn't suddenly get a huge dose of strength boost in the middle of the fight with Nnoitra even though he was suddenly able to strike with much more force. This is why I do not consider Shikai release, Bankai release, Vizard-acts (which creates a different spiritual medium through use of a mask), Artefacts, eye patch removal, or any such things to be an indication of any internal growth, but external "power-ups". I suppose you could say that these power-ups do have their own growth attached, as well, and I do admit that I have given the characters less credit than they have deserved in light of this. Even if Ichigo's bankai was "more efficient" than his shikai, to say that Ichigo hasn't made progress in using his bankai to its utmost would be faulty. If I was to look at it from the same perspective that I would look at Kido, then, yes, I can find some growth in there, as can I find some growth as a Vizard (the increased time-limit is an obvious example). Even if Ichigo's bankai, going from the aforementioned theoretically efficiencies, had 90% efficiency inherently, if he brought it up to 110%, this is an obvious improvement on his part. These are item-specific growths as opposed to overall growths, however -- Ichigo's bankai mastery should not translate to an improvement to himself unless he specifically is using his bankai (unless, of course, certain areas overlap). I also originally used the argument that Sado, Orihime, and Ishida didn't increase in the "power" category but were focused more along the lines of "technique" and "knowledge" to say that they haven't experienced much growth. That was an admittedly faulty way to measure them (purely on a reiatsu standpoint), and I retract most of the viewpoint with consideration to my point above. I still say that Orihime's growth is fairly stunted because she's able to neither really retain it or perform at maximum efficiency even when she wants to (it's similar to shooting at an object repeatedly -- if you do it enough, you'll get a bullseye eventually). Ichigo had that problem earlier, however (mentioned by Ulquiorra as wildly fluctuating power levels), so I won't write her off completely -- maybe she'll surprise me one day. The decreases in the time it takes for her to heal people is also something of note and something that wasn't taken into full consideration prior, especially her more recent "successes". [quote]I never said anything about their need to feed. Grand Fisher and Shrieker were genuinely evil beings who did evil things because it seemed to amuse them. If we take other Hollows who seem to act like wild-animals hunting for food I suppose there's an argument to be made that they're ultimately tragic creatures. In the end however, and Neliel herself admits this, they're monsters that need to be destroyed/purified.[/quote]The problem arises in that you can't take individuals such as King Fisher or Shrieker to classify the whole. Aizen is a shinigami, and he has done some decidedly dastardly deeds. The shinigami were also not presented in a wholly pleasant light in the beginning of the series, either -- Byakuya is a shining example of somebody who performed "evil" actions even though he, himself, can hardly be called evil. Hawks may snatch up cute little bunnies, but I don't consider them evil. It's in their nature. Why, then, does everything change when we're talking about the concept of humans being prey? Hollows that eat humans are, for the most part, not consciously thinking beings. They do not wake up one day and go "Oh, I think I'm going to go eat a human". In fact, the vast majority of lower hollows seem to eat others because they are in pain, and the higher hollows do so to retain their sanity. Even if Neliel says, in her opinion, that hollows are monsters that need to be purified/destroyed, there are also hollows that believe that Shinigami shouldn't prosecute them so cruelly. Saying that because a human-sympathizer like Nel states hollows should be destroyed makes it true is similar to saying all Shinigami should try to fight "on equal ground" because Ichigo wanted Ulquiorra to "even it" after awakening from his Hollow Mk II state. I highly doubt any shinigami aside from Ichigo would even think about doing such an admittedly insane thing, as I'm fairly certain most "sane" Hollow would disagree with Nel's statement with great vigor. [/SIZE][SIZE=1][quote]Likewise he asked Shinji if they'd come for revenge, he obviously felt they'd something to be vengeful about, which hints he disagreed with their execution orders and he seemed to trust the Vizard to fight with the Shinigami against Aizen and the Arrancar even if they weren't fighting for Soul Society but rather Ichigo.[/quote][/SIZE][SIZE=1]It appears we took different meanings from his question, then. If I recall, he asked if they had come for revenge and then moved his hand to his sword to prepare to bring it out if he had to. From his actions, it felt more like Yamamoto was trying to figure out if he had another enemy on the battlefield as opposed to sharing sympathy for their condition at the council's hand. Once they declared they were here for Ichigo or to kill Aizen, they were chalked up as a beneficial force and left at that. Yamamoto certainly couldn't exactly afford to be picky at this point, now, could he? Any other time and he would probably have tried to exterminate them. ~~~~~ [/SIZE][quote name='"Gavin"][SIZE=1']I think maybe it might be more accurate (and feel free to disagree with me here) that based on what we've seen so far, development occurs more quickly when fighting a similar type of reiatsu. We saw Ichigo develop quickly when fighting other Shinigami, but his early encounters with Grimmjow ended in very obvious defeat but as Ichigo began to gain control and develop his Hollow powers through fighting other Hollows (Shinji comments that Ichigo isn't developing by training with the Vizards) until ultimately he closes the gap with Grimmjow and then surpasses his power and the same thing along with further evolution for Ichigo occurs against Ulquiorra. I think Grimmjow even asks Ichigo directly if he became stronger from training, or just fighting.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1]I honestly think this is coincidence. If you consider a Vizard to be a shinigami-hollow hybrid, then their reiatsu would be distinct from either hollows or shinigami. I think the main reason why Ichigo was unable to progress with the Vizards was because he had neither the resolve at the time, nor did he feel he was in any actual real danger. If you recall his training with Urahara, Urahara specifically put his life in danger, pushed his life to the edge, and I think that is something the Vizards neglected to do as they weren't aiming for that. Ichigo especially seems to gain more from battle than those around him, although this is hard to say since the higher ranking shinigami don't appear to fight for their life nearly as often as Ichigo has. I am reminded of the growth the shinigami experienced as they fought their enemy Espada, however -- did Hitsugaya not improve in his skills by fighting an enemy with a similar style attack? Another of his abilities -- being able to force precipitation -- was brought to light, at the least. Same thing with Kenpachi against Nnoitra, as Kenpachi using Kenpo was a technique we hadn't seen in the past. Mayuri's assistant and special drug was showcased as well. These shinigami did not fight against someone with a similar reiatsu, but with a similar fighting style and personality, the most obvious examples being Szayel vs Mayuri and Hitsugaya vs Harribel.[/SIZE]

Let's begin the list. Actively reading -- Naruto -- Not much to say here. Run-of-the-mill shounen with ninjas and a ton of chapters. Getting a bit stale at the moment, unfortunately. Bleach -- Typical Shounen, this time with shinigami shenannigans. Upcoming Bankai has me anticipating upcoming release. One Piece -- Shounen, but with interesting quirks of personality in relation to the manga above. Interested in upcoming releases thanks to the recent deaths and near-deaths of important characters. How refreshing. Fairy Tail -- Just picked this up yesterday or so, and I'm currently on the seventy-first chapter. I hope to catch up by today or, at the very least, by the end of tomorrow. Mahou Sensei Negima -- Shounen (harem) manga, but I like the dark magic theme that has been present in the later chapters. There are a few possible plot holes I'm miffed about, but it still holds my interest. Veritas -- Shounen manga (actually, manhwa) that has a main character that doesn't follow the typical mold of most heroes nowadays. He actually, -gasp-, loses in fights. It's a "fight with styles that have special powers" sort of manga, like Tenjou Tenge meets Avatar the Airbender. I guess. Beelzebub -- Anti-heroes are fun. The main character is basically considered a most brutal and powerful delinquent, making him a prime candidate as the prince of hell's (a baby) role model and guardian during his stay on earth. Wish he would stop trying to get rid of the baby, though -- it's annoying, and I'm fairly certain it'll never happen. Defense Devil -- I am extremely agitated at the genre swap of this manga, but I continue reading it if only because I've gotten pretty far into already. Had a very promising start, but has since just turned into a typical ecchi shounen. I am disappoint. Tegami Bachi -- I've read only a bit of this, but I am greatly intrigued. The introduction that explained how the world functions was rather well done and didn't really feel strained to me. There are a few possible plot quirks, but I'm willing to let them slide a bit until I get further into the manga. It's shounen, with some good battles and, really, indulges in a few bizaare things, but it doesn't seem as if the battles are going to be the focus at this point. More plot-heavy than the manga listed above. Love the child of Maya. Akagi -- This is a manga about Mahjong and the birth of a genius player. It's a very interesting read and is a bit more serious than Hikaru no Go, even if the plot isn't as heavily detailed. It still works. (Finished Pluto just recently). Excellent read. Recommend it. It's from the same author who did Monster (which I've only read a bit of, sadly), if I recall, and the psychological aspects are planted solidly in the book. It also has a distinct feel of realism -- it doesn't seem as if the author plays any favorites and that consequences truly do exist. There's also some interesting political points going on here, and a few statements of morality if you look close enough. On temporary hiatus, but still reading : Skip Beat -- A very good Shoujo. Plan to reread all of it at once here soon. Better men have made better summaries than I could do now, and I'd rather not butcher the very strong premise of the story. Bakuman -- A decent manga about aspiring mangaka. I've actually learned quite a bit by reading this manga (and see some of its aspects present in real life, such as Defense Devil's genre swap). I recommend it, but I haven't read enough to do so highly. Id -- Very well done. Great fight scenes, decent characters, and consequences are not taken lightly here, either. I enjoyed it greatly, but read too much at once and burnt myself out. Very well drawn, too. Koukou Debut -- Shoujo with relatively believable characters as the focus. I haven't finished this and, same as Id, I simply burned myself out. I'll pick it up soon. Gash Bell (I really should finish this one up... I'm like twenty chapters from the end...) -- Same as those above, I burnt myself out. The anime is horrible in comparison to the manga, which is relatively strong in its action while also having a progressive storyline. (I'll edit those below with more details later. Ran out of time -c-) Until Death Do Us Part. Hikaru no Go. Majin Tentei Nougami Neuro (same as Gash...) On temporary hiatus, but still watching -- Lucky Star. Samurai Champloo.

[quote name='rotlung']I'm totally blanking out on his name but the guy from Naruto that Shikamaru killed (or imprisoned w/e) with the big scythe. He was bad amoung bad guys.[/quote] I do believe you are thinking of Hidan. ~~~ As for myself, I don't really watch a lot of anime, however... Afro Samurai's "Kuma" Jinnosuke is the only one I can think of at the moment, just for the sheer novelty of a dual-sword-wielding bear of DOOM. He's also got some serious skills and, when he comes on, I know Afro's got a serious fight on his hands. Good stuff. ~~~ The following didn't make the cut due to technicalities :< The Dark Adonis, from Disgaea, makes an entrance here (although more in the game than in the anime). Always been a fan of him and his underappreciated ways make me chuckle. A shame I don't like his anime counterpart. I also have a certain fondness from Marik from Yu-Gi-Oh. Not for anything he's done as a character, himself, but that it's thanks to him that [B][U][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOf_ce1ak4w"]this[/URL][/U][/B] video came about. I can't help but smile (thinking of the video!) if I ever see him appear. Can't take 'im seriously at all anymore. Fear the tongue! 8D

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1] I'd say you had a point Rune if not for the fact we have other human characters in the series who have displayed phenomenal growth levels over the course of the series. Ishida and Chad for instance in roughly the same space of time that Ichigo has developed into an elite captain class combatant have also reached a state where they can fight evenly with low-captain class opponents. Orihime's powers are comparable to the strongest healing techniques Soul Society can offer. Then you have Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki who have yet to be seen since their training begin. [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Sure, according to Urahara Chad and Inoue (and likely Tatsuki and co.) only developed powers from being near Ichigo when he was spilling out reiatsu unconsciously but that doesn't come anywhere near explaining the Quincy who were regular human souls who developed (if we take Ryuken as an example) the ability to become comparably powerful to Shinigami in considerably less time. [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Again though I think the boils back to my previous point about living souls, we've seen equally that Chad only developed similarly under his training with Renji but ultimately became much more powerful when fighting with Hollows because of their similar nature to himself. Ishida developed while training with his father.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Actually, Ishida has not developed his powers so quickly. He had to make use of an ancient artifact to artificially boost his level of power and then, after he misused it against Mayuri, had to train to get his *regular* powers back with a Master Quincy (his father). Even afterward, he hasn't really increased in *power* insomuch as he has increased the variety of artifact-esque weapons he possesses. Only his speed and analytical abilities have improved, really. As for Sado, he didn't really develop much at all -- his power is based primarily on his own life force energy, as seen when he initially went into Soul Society as a ryoka against Shunsui. As for his magnificant growth, that only occurred when he went into Hueco Mundo, in which I believe his exposure to the energy of the place is really what caused him to change whereas his battles simply required it be brought forth. Any of his power changes will be brought forth by improving his life force or figuring out how to use it effectively in his attacks. Comparatively, however, I would say that he didn't really achieve any upgrade of note until he went to Hueco Mundo, which really wasn't due to training at all, but to the unique root of his power. Orihime has seen little to no growth at all, and her power is based upon "willpower". In order to improve, she has to hold the desires the fairies represent -- the desire to heal, the desire to protect, and the desire to kill. Everything is based on her personal emotions and, since she has yet to really find a backbone, her growth is stunted heavily. As for her abilities, however, they came like that without any training necessary. She was always able to "heal" (which is actually reversing time, if I recall, which allows her to heal even body parts that no longer exist). She never needed to "train" in the first place except to figure out how to call the fairies forth or to steel her heart for what she has to do. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]I think saying that humans are special was wrong of me, I think it more so has to do with living souls (for the lack of a better term) who've been able to access their own reiatsu and develop it. Under those circumstances it seems they're able to grow in power much more quickly than dead souls like Shinigami or Hollows.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Going from my points above, I would actually say Ichigo is the only person to have experienced any of this growth, and I would hardly attribute it to being human. He has grown in his abilities as a Shinigami, certainly, but this is mainly due to his insane powerups owing to his : Initial Shinigami Shikai Shikai Energy Blast Bankai Bankai Energy Blast Hollowification Second-stage Hollowification His "growth" has been largely superficial owing to his increasing repertoire of special moves ("power-ups") and his evolving hollow state. There has been *some* marked progress in terms of abilities and power, but the biggest difference between Initial Ichigo and Current Ichigo is his Bankai and Hollow form and, possibly, self-control, as opposed to a sheer difference in reiatsu level. Which means that, in his eighteen months, he has basically learned how to tap into what was already present inside of him as opposed to improving what is there, as members of Soul Society typically have to do. It is no surprise that his "growth" exceeds how fast the other Shinigami grow, as they had to actually improve themselves and increase their power instead of simply learning how to use it. It is similar to comparing teaching an already very physically fit person the correct way to fight to a person who is not fit at all trying to bulk up. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Certainly it would've been a very interesting (although maybe a bit obvious) twist for the manga. I think the thing about it though is that Hollows are only initially tragic characters, and even then it only applies to some of them. When they succumb to their monstrous nature (their loss of a heart which seems to be reason, empathy and morality) and embrace it, as Grand Fisher and most other Hollows seem to do, I think it's quite hard to view them as tragic. Sora was tragic because he was turned against his will into a Hollow.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] Once again, I must bring up the statement that Hollows do not eat souls because they are hungry, but to help cover the pain they are feeling within themselves. A Hollow that is hungry is in pain, for the most part. I see hidden tragedies in hollows. Even though their current actions might be destructive, I sympathize with them and the actions that would make their once human soul loathe themselves. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1] Komamura made it clear that Soul Society doesn't view Ichigo as a monster despite his part Hollow nature because he didn't seek out those powers for himself. Maybe the revelation Ichigo wasn't human at all might change that, but honestly at this point given all the fighting he has done for Soul Society I wouldn't see it happening. Ichigo was in the right morally trying to rescue Rukia, so even his conflict with them was their fault.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1] Interestingly enough, the Vizards were "to be dealt with as hollows" even though *they* also did not seek out those abilities, either. It makes me wonder just how long ago Aizen put the council into his pocket and whether he was the one who actually forced Urahara's banishment.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]the big reveal is supposed to be a huge surprise to Ichigo, not us.[/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] If that was the case, then there was absolutely no need to have that in the form of a "cliff-hanger". Since cliff-hangers don't exist inside the Bleach universe (I'm pretty sure Ichigo didn't go "I'm half what, Aizen?!" for the week afterward), I am going to assume it was meant for the readers. There's nothing new to see here, though -- it's outdated information we received a long, long time ago. I will begrudgingly admit that there are far worse ways to transition into chapters, and that used in that way, I don't have as great a problem with it, though it still irritates me since I had my hopes up. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]What we've been supposed to take out of Bleach for ages is that Ichigo is special because he's part human, he puts every one of Soul Society's geniuses and prodigies to shame... Even if Isshin was as powerful as Yama... [/SIZE][/quote][SIZE=1] The thing is is that I *don't* believe Ichigo is special because he's part human. I am hoping beyond hope that that is also the direction Kubo is *not* going with this revelation, because while I can accept that somebody like Ichigo can do all of these things that took everybody else forever to do, having the explanation be "because you are human" just... it doesn't sit well. Heck, Ichigo even has to abandon his human body just to use his Shinigami abilities -- the only way I can imagine being a human would allow Ichigo to grow at such rates is if it was somehow explained that the souls that enter Soul Society do not grow in power, or have stunted growth, compared to the growth of souls inhabiting a living body. Even this explanation would be a long stretch to me, and would have to be presented very well for me to accept it. It simply doesn't take into consideration a good deal of factors. I believe he's gotten to be as strong as he is thanks to his constant fighting against strong opponents, which is, really, Aizen's doing. It can be argued that Abarai Renji attained his Bankai in much the same way -- from his fight with Ichigo and his upcoming fight with Byakuya. Even when Ichigo was trying to get his Bankai, he was fighting against his pseudo Zanpakuto spirit. For his Hollow powers, against his inner hollow. I also believe it is entirely possible that a good deal of Ichigo's growth can be attributed to Isshin's abilities. If you recall, all of Ichigo's entire family is able to see spirits in some manner, even though they are not full-blown Shinigami. Ichigo's sealed state Zanpakuto was also incredibly large owing to his already rather sizable spiritual pressure (with lack of control). These were already inherent within him thanks to, I believe, the nature of his father. His subsequent growth is not so great a surprise, considering that he was probably as powerful as, at least, a fifth or fourth seat upon taking Rukia's power. [/SIZE][quote name='Gavin'] [SIZE=1] Ultimately how would Ichigo feel if he knew his mother was the gestalt of tens of thousands, if not more other souls [/SIZE][SIZE=1] (if she's was supposed to be a Vasto Lorde) [/SIZE][SIZE=1]she'd consumed over her lifetime? Neliel even though she has become a better person since becoming an Arrancar realises that she is ultimately still a monster.[/SIZE][/quote] [SIZE=1]It would make for an interesting psychological blow to Ichigo and would most likely push the manga into another interesting direction. How would *any* of the Shinigami in Soul Society feel if they learned that Ichigo is in fact a spawn of the very things they view as ultimate evil, while he has also been the one to bail them out of tough times at crucial moments? How would Ichigo's opinion of his father and mother change in response to this? It's all very interesting, and, once again, perhaps I am simply thrusting my own preferences into the future of the manga with wishful thinking. I cannot, however, consider hollows to be the ultimate enemy, no matter what action they may take. Considering that I managed to see a few hollows and how they were born (the baker and his mother, Orihime and her brother) as well as their actions and the distorted views which made them behave in such a way, I simply can't view any run-of-the-mill hollow as a possible tragic story and victim of circumstances. There must be *some* reason why shinigami do not appreciate the quincies' view of hollow removal (complete destruction as opposed to purification), but I also feel that Kubo himself is somewhat pushing his old plot device aside in favor of another, so it may be an unfortunate moot point.[/SIZE]

Just got through reading Bleach and... I dunno. I'm a little disappointed, to be honest. Ya, Isshin is a pretty beast character and all, but... well, I'm disappointed that Ichigo is only a human/shinigami combination. How is being human useful at all except for not requiring a gigai to walk around on Earth (now *that* is an awesome skill, amirite?)? I'm also fairly certain that just about everyone knew he was part shinigami thanks to the Isshin revelation with King Fisher a long, long time ago. What the heck is this? So much hype, so much suspense, just to give us information we already know? Why doesn't Kubo just start putting irrelevant information in a cliffhanger-esque fashion at the end of every chapter just for the lulz. At least then I wouldn't get my hopes up. First chapter *Isshin pops in* Ichigo : "... Dad..?" Isshin : "Ichigo... I'm..." Next week : Isshin : "your father". ~~~ Maybe I'm just personally irritated because I want to see some Hollow love going on here. And after Kubo essentially went out of his way to make the Hollows semi-amiable (with the newfound personalities and all-around-awesomeness(?)) in the Espada, I sort of expected he would do something else with it than to just create pawns for the omni-potentscient Aizen. Maybe some personification and people could actually see them as something other than beasts to be hunted down. Maybe something that could even be a motherly figure? Fatherly figure? At least a figure that can be mistaken for almost human? -__-;; I am still not convinced, however. Aizen isn't going to go out of his way for a simple Shinigami / Human child. I sure as heck hope he isn't, which means that he's most likely going after Isshin if what was said about Ichigo is true. Isshin. Good ol' Isshin. Isshin was all too happy to jump out to attack the King Fisher -- I'm sure Aizen could have fished him out without resorting to... what... a few years at least throwing people at Ichigo. He seems less a chessmaster and more a letdown psycho who's just getting his kicks now. "Oh, hai Isshin. Ya, it's me, Aizen, remember? Ya, I told you I'd never forget about that time you ate the last slice of pizza." "I... what?" "Ya, that's right. You ate my flippin' pizza. Now your son is paying the price -- look at him and his Shinigami ways! He can float in mid-air now! I had to kill most of the high-ranking Shinigami and Arrancar that I essentially farmed for the longest time, but I did it! Look who has the last laugh now!" ~~~ Man, am I steamed... -__-

As of late, I've been really interested in far more mature manga series. With that in mind, it's not really so great of a surprise to see this list. Akumetsu Elfen Lied Gantz I don't think Akumetsu will ever be moved from that spot at the top, as it simply had that great of an impact on me as a whole. It's a shame it's already finished, but at the same time, it doesn't seem as if the ending was terribly rushed and even gives it some modicum of closure without cutting off all potential future plot points. It's a good read, though the graphic intensity might get to some people. Elfen Lied is full of rather depressing moments following a character that, while incredibly powerful, has also been shown to not be invincible. Aside from some bitterness over a few characters and their development, I really appreciated this work and, if exploding bodies doesn't really bother you, would recommend it to the majority of people, as well. (Sidenote, I have an Elfen Lied themed computer background). Gantz. Ahhhh, the infamous Gantz. I like it for its action as well as its interesting storyline development. People die. A lot. And even though you're only with them for a brief period of time, you can still develop a personal connection with them that pulls at you when you see their head rolling on the ground. Characterization is interesting, and the main characters definitely feel realistic and mortal. Definite plus. Other manga on the list that didn't really make it to the top three include, in no particular order -- Skip Beat, Angel Densetsu, Ultimate!! Hentai Kamen (perverted humor, but I'm telling you, the title is misleading >.

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]Given Hollows also possess reiatsu, although it seems to be distinct from Shinigami reiatsu, perhaps I was wrong to call them separate species but are rather two distinct sub-species of souls whose differences are based on their ability to control their hunger and reiatsu, Shinigami attaining control of both where as Hollows are very much driven by their hunger and don't possess any great level of reiatsu control until the undergo Shinigamification or perhaps become Vasto Lordes (although that's speculation).[/SIZE][/quote] [URL]http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/4/12/[/URL] Interestingly enough, Hollows do not eat souls because they are hungry, but because they are in pain. They lose their human heart and, to fill that void, consume others. This is why Hollows all have holes in their body, to signify this "missing heart". Also, something significant -- [URL]http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/6/15/[/URL] Apparently, Hollows can be purified and thus sent to Soul Society, just like regular souls. I'm not sure how this is applied to higher class hollows, however -- it seemed as if, by slashing apart the Espada, they definitely perished. When a hollow becomes an Arrancar, it reverts to a more humanoid form. This could very well show that, even as a hollow, they inherently desire to return to being human, to returning to life to fulfill that which they have regretted being unable to fulfill. Vasto Lordes, as far as I know, do not feast on the souls of humans, either, which is why they do not appear in the human world under normal circumstances. They have carved out their own niche and no longer have to fill the void in their heart with the suffering of others. Instead, it could probably even be said that they are the negative equivalent to Shinigami, just as normal hollows are the negative equivalent to normal souls, and their existence can hardly be considered as "evil" in the grand scheme of things. [URL]http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/21/[/URL] This holds even more weight when you consider the possibility that those souls who go on to Soul Society retain the form they had as a spirit in the human world, effectively making Soul Society the "world of the plus" where it is theoretically impossible for souls to naturally degenerate into hollows, with Hueco Mundo as the "world of the negative", where it is theoretically impossible for souls to retain their natural form.

[quote name='Ace'][FONT=Comic Sans MS]He should be going after [spoiler]Blackbeard, the more immediate threat and the far more powerful adversary as of the moment.[/spoiler] Granted, letting Luffy escape would inevitably lead to him becoming even stronger in the long run, but Akainu shouldn't know that if he's unaware that he's in a shonen manga.[/FONT][/quote] The only problem is that Luffy demonstrated he can use the "[SIZE=2]Haōshoku Haki". To be completely honest, Blackbeard isn't exactly the strongest pirate around. Certainly, he's got two really amazing Devil Fruits coursing through his system, but I haven't seen him do anything aside from that. Just to frame this, who is more powerful -- Shanks or Blackbeard? Shanks hasn't eaten a Devil Fruit (if I recall correctly), and yet he is able to easily stop Akainu's logia-style attack as if it was nothing. Luffy has demonstrated the same Haki capability (unmastered), has eaten a Devil Fruit, *and* is the son of the notorious Dragon. If Akainu is looking towards the future, Luffy is far more dangerous than Blackbeard is, perhaps even moreso since he saw Ace die in front of his eyes. Up until this point, he hasn't been hit with nearly as severe an emotional crisis -- what would happen if Luffy began to get serious and decided to avenge his brother's death? There's so much that could go wrong if Luffy escapes, so much danger that could be created that removing him is important. Blackbeard, on the contrary, isn't even *trying* to escape, meaning Akainu can deal with him once Luffy is dead. If he chose to kill Blackbeard, instead, Luffy would go free. One path has both of them possibly dead, the other has only one. I also don't see him as a hypocrite, just an overbearing, rather powerful zealot. A lot of his actions are over the top and may seem contrary to his professed beliefs, but such actions, in the long run, coincide with what he views as an ideal world. If all that matters is the bottom line, sometimes getting your hands dirty is the quickest and most effective route. Akainu happens to be doing just that in regards to Coby. Is he a monster? Most definitely -- his actions are brutal and his path is unwavering -- and I think there's something to be said that a guy who is fighting for the "ultimate good" is such a vicious character. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]While obviously Ichigo being born half-Shinigami and half-Hollow would certainly make him a prime target as "material" for Aizen, I'm still having trouble accepting reproduction between the two, given physically and I extend this even to Vasto Lordes because just looking human-esque doesn't ensure they'll have reproductive organs in the appropriate place they're almost entirely different species. That said we know that Hollow's can naturally Shinigamify (the Privaron) so an Arrancar/Shinigami union isn't out of the question. [/SIZE][/quote] Is there such a great difference between a Shinigami and a Hollow in the first place? [URL]http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/62/19/[/URL] [URL]http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/62/20/[/URL] If I recall correctly, also, those in Soul Society who develop hunger are prime candidates to become Shinigami. (I've looked through the Bleach chapters, but I can't seem to figure out where the Rukia-Renji flashback is for supplementary evidence. If anyone else can find it, I would be eternally grateful >.

Hmm? Nobody likes Akainu? I like him if only because he seems to be the most competent "marine" I've met so far, considering how much damage he's caused to the pirate world. His reasoning is dangerous, but not flawed -- removing all evil, [I]completely[/I], is the most assured way to provide for a peaceful world, and even if he has to make sacrifices along the way (Coby, innocents, his pride) he's completely willing to do so if it brings the world closer to that point. Just to point this out, killing Coby after he makes that declaration would ensure that no other marine dared to spout such spiel, as well. It'd serve as a deterrent to marines retreating from the battle or stopping at all, increasing the odds of all of the pirates present on the island to being killed. Not to mention that destroying a retreating force produces far fewer casualties on your side than trying to take on a force as it comes at you. Marines and pirates will most likely never get along, so demanding the marines to attack the pirates now, as they are retreating, could very well save countless marines killed by the same retreating pirates in the future and any number of innocents that may lose their life to a pirate's plundering. Being exposed to Luffy's happy-go-lucky pirateering has desensitized a good deal of people into thinking that pirates are not a bad thing. Take a look at Captain Kuro, Arlong, or even Blackbeard and tell me that pirates are not a bad thing. Leaving a few soldiers to die? Killing off a brat who has been known to sympathize with a pirate in the past(Luffy, no less)? In the grand scheme of things, these are very small trifles.