James

[quote name='Rachmaninoff']It must be because you're in Australia since I'm not registered and have no issue viewing it. Here's a link to something in your area that also covers it: [URL="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24884283-26040,00.html"][U]Article[/U][/URL] And here's a link to the image that was in NY Times article. [URL="http://i43.tinypic.com/111jfat.jpg"][U]Bus[/U][/URL][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]Ah, thank you. I just read The Australian piece. To me it sounds fine, especially given the depressing and unnecessary religious message that prompted it! It does sound fairly light-hearted, which is good. I don't think it should be taken too seriously. It's just a nice example of how free speech works. Just as much as one group has the right to advertise something, so too do others. [/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I can't view that article because I'm not registered with NY Times, but in terms of advertising atheism...my personal feeling is that it's just as open to advertising as anything else. As has been pointed out, if religious groups can advertise/promote their agenda, so too can atheist groups. I'm assuming that although atheists as a whole aren't part of one defined organization, there are probably still quite a few individual atheist "groups" who try to push their own ideas. I just view it as free speech, I guess. They have no less or greater right than anyone else, nor should they. As far as Richard Dawkins goes, I've kind of been interested in reading The God Delusion, but I'm not sure if it's really worthwhile. This debate just makes me more interested. I [i]have[/i] read Ian Plimer's "Telling Lies for God", which is a brilliant book. It's also definitely not an atheist book. In any case, Dawkins obviously has a point to make and he tries to make that forcefully. I see nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean he's angry or has a chip on his shoulder necessarily - I think it could simply mean that he's passionate about his views on the subject. And that's totally fine. He certainly has that right. It's then our choice whether we pay attention or not! :catgirl:[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I used to like Coke a lot, but I [i]swear[/i] that they changed the recipe (at least here in Australia) at some stage within the last couple of years. It doesn't taste like it used to. So I don't drink it at all now. These days if I want soda (or soft drink, as we'd call it here) I buy Pepsi Max. Sure, it tastes like varnish, but it's at least better than the new Coke formulation here (in my humble view). I did try Coke Zero once, but that's kind of like coloured water with a ton of salt mixed in. Yuck. My favourite drinks now would probably be dragonfruit water (I think the brand is Vitamin Water) or some kind of cordial.[/font]

[quote]No hard choices. Just the obliteration of the enemy. Especially for a military might such as Israel, who have yet to lose a major war since its inception. Peace is harder because it requires self-examination, the ability to move forward and envision a future beyond the past. [/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]You try being a Prime Minister or President who has to send troops to war and then tell me it's an easy decision. That's an utter fallacy. I agree that peace - in terms of outright compromise - is more complex and difficult than engaging in a military confrontation. But it's unreasonable to suggest that war is ever "easy". I am not suggesting that Israel has always made the correct decision or taken the best course of action with regard to the Palestineans - in fact, in this very thread I have questioned that. However, arguing that this is all Israel's fault is unreasonable at best and downright dishonest at worst. Peace is indeed difficult - but one thing peace requires, as you point out, is self-awareness and reflection. Those within power in the Palestinean territories must demonstrate the ability to exercise this, just as much as the Israelis. Hamas's outright refusal to take responsibility for the welfare of its people and for its own political and military actions speaks volumes about how a peace process can not move forward if it is largely one-sided.[/font] [quote]That's funny because a similar clause was contained in the PLO charter, the PLO being the government authority in the West Bank tha Abbas runs (his faction is Fatah). In fact, the PLO was a designated terrorist organisation when it entered into secret talks in the 90s. You don't begin meaningful peace talks by demanding the other side surrender first before the talks begin. That's the surest way to make sure peace never comes.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]I did not even refer to the PLO in my comments. But within that context, there are two problems here. The first thing I'd say is that despite the charter or intentions, there's a significant difference between the leadership of Hamas and someone like Mahmoud Abbas. The latter is at least considered a moderate leader who Israel can work with. The former has stated and demonstrated, time and time again, an unwillingness to negotiate. So yes, I agree, you can't ask your opponent to "surrender" before a negotiation can occur. But Israel is not asking that. They are asking that the attacks cease and that Israel is recognized as a legitimate entity. This isn't hard for Hamas to do. And there is no excuse for them not to take this step, if they are serious about a peace process.[/font] [quote]If you are going to tell me with a straight face that such incidents are a genuine threat to the security of the Israeli state, then there is really nothing I can say to prove otherwise. It'd be like talking about evolution in science to a person speaking creationism in religion. Anyone who suggests that what Hamas was doing was a genuine threat to Israel and was so serious that it required a massive invasion into Gaza killing hundreds and injuring thousands, many of whom are unarmed civilians, is not being reasonable or even rational.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]And if you are going to tell me that Hamas was merely "annoying" Israel, then that's clearly just as irrational as you're making me out to be. It's not a good idea to throw terms like that around. As I said before - and will continue to point out - a key aspect of terrorism is "terror". It is important to stress that I am [i]not[/i] suggesting Israel's response is somehow 100% justifiable. However, my key point is that Israel is not the only party at fault here. If that attitude continues to prevail, nothing will be achieved.[/font] [quote]Unemployment is running at 40-50%. What is the unemployment rate where you live? Again, the facts speak for themselves. Israel and the US have never tried to engage Hamas. They have done nothing but denounce and demonise. Hamas is an ugly organisation and many of its leaders are nasty people. But if you want peace you need to look past that, you need to be able to look forward and not just backwards. [/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Right, but again you're blaming that unemployment on who? Israel? The United States? C'mon. Hamas was elected to power in Gaza - it must govern. It is not doing so. This isn't about Hamas being "ugly" or being led by "nasty people" - it's about the simple fact that Hamas is systematically destroying its own people. In that way, Hamas is a bigger enemy to the Palestineans than Israel. Even if you argue - legitimately - that Israel's military strikes are far too strong...you then have to say, okay, [i]why[/i] are they attacking? And the answer comes back to Hamas. So, yes, you're well within your right to say that Israel is being overzealous in its response. I accept that completely. [i]But[/i], Hamas is the cause of the disease - not the symptom. And it must be acknowledged and treated as such. I think everybody - including Israel, the United States and most of the Palestineans - want to look forward. But you [i]can't[/i] have a meaningful dialogue with a group that a) doesn't recognize you in the first place, b) won't sit down to talk, c) continues attacking your citizens and d) ignores the cease fires that it even agrees to. I am all for the idea of negotiating with one's enemies in order to find a peaceful solution. But if an enemy won't even acknowledge you - if that enemy is only interested in destroying you and will never entertain any idea of peace, then that puts you in a very tough position.[/font] [quote]I'm not going to convince anyone here. There is too much propaganda flying around. And besides, most people don't know much the Middle East, and those who do are worse, they know just enough to confirm their own prejudices. [/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Right. I think everyone - including yourself - should take this advice. The more you know, the easier it is sometimes to ensure that the information fits into a particular prism. And even with the most knowledge on a subject, people still have their personal views as to how situations should be handled.[/font] [quote]Honoring the ceasefire? I'm not sure what your definition for holding a truce would be, but in my mind, a truce doesn't involve continuing to hunt down and assassinate leaders of your opponent. Or to close their borders and lay siege to a city of 1.5 million. When you do these things, are you really surprise if your opponents retailates in some way? Who broke the ceasefire is not as clear cut as you may think. Both sides are to blame here.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]No, it's not as clear cut - but you are clearly using emotive, one-sided language here that lacks the objectivity you ask of others. It's easy to say "close the borders and lay siege", but again, [i]why[/i] were the borders closed in the first place? There's a difference between closing the borders to prevent and limit attacks, versus an aggressive assault (the latter is what we're seeing now and the ferocity of which is under debate - the reason behind it should be clear though). Again the blame is constantly being laid at Israel's feet. Yes, Israel bears some part in that blame - I don't think any reasonable person would deny that. But the ability to shift responsibility from groups like Hamas, or to minimize their contributions to the conflict, is truly astounding.[/font] [quote]The reality is that it takes two to tango. There are hardliners amongst the Israelis and there are hardliners amongst the Palestinians. And the irony is that they support each other. Much like Bush and Ahmadinejad. Neither wants peace. They thrive on confrontation and conflict and it energises and re-enforces their power. Until another Rabin comes along, Israel will make no real efforts towards peace. Likewise, until another Arafat the Palestinians will remain divided and fractured. Abbas is not up to the job.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]This is a little more even-handed. Yes, there are hard-liners among both sides. And this is something I always stress, because I think there is a tendency by some pro-Israel commentators to suggest that all Palestineans are exactly the same. Having said that, I don't really believe in the idea that they are equal-but-opposing forces that create an equal barrier to peace. This suggestion, to me, implies not only equal "guilt" on both sides, but it also dramatically simplifies a very complicated issue. I mean, I would never compare Bush to Ahmedinejad for example. I guess I'd view such a comparison as being irrational, just as you might view my earlier comparison as being so. :catgirl: In any case, at least we also agree that the Palestineans are being poorly represented right now - and have been for a very long time. Until they have a transparent government that actually prepares for statehood rather than war, this cycle will continue. And that is most unfortunate for all concerned, particularly the more than a million Gaza residents who are constantly suffering.[/font] [quote]I think the real question in this thread wasn't wether what Hamas intends is wrong or not, cause destroying Isreal is definitely wrong. But the question was whether Isreal's response, their way of dealing with this, was fair and reasonable or not. And my answer to this is that it's not. [/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Right, and that's a fair point to make. I think that key point is often missed when facts and statistics are thrown around without any real understanding behind them (in terms of their context and meaning especially).[/font]

[quote name='SunfallE'][COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"]You don't want to delete it since myOtaku isn't open to creating new accounts. You can make a new one at theOtaku, but those are not set up to let you have a fully customized myOtaku so all you can do is log in for commenting on other member's sites who joined before the change like you did. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]Yeah, this is a really important point that I forgot to mention! :catgirl: Removing your myOtaku account means that you are essentially stuck with theOtaku/Worlds if you want to start again. And obviously Worlds don't have the same kind of customization, so you must consider that. Fingers crossed anyway. Hopefully it will work now! Thanks to SunfallE and Adam for following this up. :catgirl:[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Okay so, I will do a post here (or a PM, Shy, whichever you prefer) that includes all of the fundamental details for Anova. Then you guys can build on that in any way you like, with characters/companies/locales/etc... I will try to do that all this week for you. Edit: The stuff on [b]Icarus[/b] and [b]House of Grimoire[/b] looks great so far! [/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]My thinking is that just after the Czenovian revolution, there might have been an election in Anova, leading to a new Prime Minister. This new PM might wish to advance Anova's military capabilities, now that there is no real threat from Czenovia. In fact, I suspect that Anova and Czenovia might turn their attention to overseas threats more than anything. So there's a lot of potential here. Anova is still not a big industrial country though. I imagine that it would still import most of its Magitechnology from Czenovia. And Czenovia would probably want to encourage this, because I imagine its own domestic market is pretty saturated. Anova is principally still a service economy, with textiles (clothing, tapestries), sculpture, jewellery and other "fine arts" making up their principle goods production. This includes the mining and refinement of Anovan silver. [b]Edit:[/b] Also I should mention that Anova's "bread and butter" economy is farming/fishing. The country is full of sweeping grassy plains, which produce some of the world's highest quality meats, fruit and vegetables. Anovan art tends to be quite sought-after and Anovan fashion is always at the cutting-edge. Many of the richest people in the New Globe wear the latest Anovan designer outfits. Don't know if that will help anyone who wants more detail. Interestingly, Anovan silver has many unique and magical properties. I imagine some companies may want to try to buy some of that silver for other applications (silver-coated ammunition, or silver machine parts in weapons, perhaps?) :catgirl: [b]Rach:[/b] Sounds good. There should be plenty of spots open I think. There are really only a few pre-existing Achards for me to mention. :catgirl:[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Thanks Allamorph. Animepunk420, we'll try one more time - hopefully someone can restore those settings to the default so that you don't have to start again. If nothing can be done we'll remove that account if you like.[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Also in regard to Anova, I do have a couple of requests. First, if you create Anovan characters, try where possible to give them a French name - or at least one that bears some similarity to French words/names. This is certainly not a requirement, because many different people live in Anova... but I think of it this way - Czenovia seems to be more a combination of British and Eastern European, whereas Anova is definitely based around French design. This includes architecture and fashion too. The language is "Anovanique" (French). If you want to make a Achard character I will be able to help by establishing a basic family tree to start from (as Olivier Achard is currently the patriarch of the family - I have a couple of gaps to fill in). Other than that it's all quite open. The sign ups will contain a description of what you need to know about Anova, which anyone can build upon.[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]A One Piece-ologist, eh? Sounds good. Welcome to OB, guys. We hope you enjoy it here. d4wood, if you want some good anime/manga recommendations I recommend checking out Anime Central and Manga Alley. I know for sure that Anime Central has a fantastic recommendations thread, but I'm not sure about Manga Alley - worth checking them both out anyway![/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think everybody wants to see an end to human rights violations. But it's important to note the difference between these violations being a way of life, versus isolated incidents that don't reflect the representative country. As always, perspective is important. While a lot of what has been said here about Israel/Hamas is true, I also don't think anyone would suggest that Israel has been perfect or somehow above reproach for all this time - certainly the Israeli Government has done things that are highly questionable. However, again, we're discussing the here and now and what is behind the current situation. In reality this entire thing can go in circles forever. What matters most, I think, is the understanding that certain conditions are needed for true peace. As it's been put earlier in this thread, peace is tough - very tough.[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I am not sure how many people are aware, but a while ago we had a discussion in the Information Kiosk forum about how to expand our anime coverage at OB. One of the main things that seemed to come up was the idea of returning to the kind of model we had years ago, where entire franchises have their own forums. In the old days, our Dragon Ball and Digimon forums (among others) were really popular - more so than the "general" catch-all anime forum. We rolled those forums away under Anime Central because of declining interest. But now, as we move toward a new version of OB and with a greater partnership at theOtaku.com, I really want us to provide a much better place for the network's anime fans to discuss their favourite series/movie/etc... So I want to return to having individual forums for different anime series/franchises here on OB. I'm proposing that we keep Anime Central as a general anime forum (for any series that doesn't have its own), but that we start creating sub-forums for the popular franchises in our community. But the question is, where to start? We'll probably add one forum at a time and see how they go. We're going to need your help in getting the word out, though - these forums won't be of any use if nobody knows they exist! Also we have to work out which franchise goes first. That's partly why I made this thread - I want you guys, our true anime fans, to let me know which franchise you think should receive its own forum first. Maybe you guys can discuss/debate that. And if you have any other ideas on how we can further support our anime community, here's the place to do it! We want to provide a thriving, pleasant, fun discussion spot for all of our anime fans on this network. That's the goal. With that said, I'll open the floor to anyone who wants to comment. I really encourage feedback from everyone - we want to get this right. :catgirl: (I'll also be pushing this question in other venues around the network, so keep an eye out!)[/font]

[quote]The only way Israel will get any peace is if it makes peace. But peace is hard. War is easy. So war is being waged.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Peace is hard, but war is never easy. War is an especially difficult decision, because it can (and regularly does) place much greater stresses on a situation. You may be aware that the recent cease-fire between Israel and Hamas was due to lapse. Israel - and the international community - pushed for an extension of it. Hamas responded to that request by firing a large number of missiles into Israel in a single day - I believe the figure was about 80. I can get that number for you. Unfortunately peace requires strong effort on both sides. While I believe that the Palestineans and the Palestinean Authority under Abbas both desire peace and wish to compromise for it, I [i]know[/i] that peace is not Hamas's objective. Are you aware that Hamas's founding principles - their charter or constitution, if you will - refers to the essential need to destroy the State of Israel? Peace can not be achieved by continuing a conflict, I agree. However, peace [i]definitely[/i] can't be achieved when one side's stated goal is to eliminate the other. Hamas must recognize Israel's right to exist before peace can occur. If this fundamental step is reached, you will see a marked change in the behaviour of both sides.[/font] [quote]Hamas is really not a threat to Israel or its citizens. The rockets are more a nuisance than anything else. More people die on the roads in Israel each month alone than have died in 7 years of rocket fire.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]By that logic, September 11th was meaningless because far more people in America die each year as part of the road toll or health issues related to obesity. That logic is a fallacy for numerous reasons. You can't suggest that acts of terrorism against civilians are "a nuisance" simply because the death toll is lower than some other series of events. Significantly, a key ingredient to terrorism is the "terror" aspect - the intent to cause distress and fear. These rockets hit housing, schools and other public areas. Whether or not they kill anyone is less relevant than the fact that they're being fired in such numbers initially.[/font] [quote]No the 'reason' for the war lies elsewhere. Israel wants to change the ground situation before Obama takes office (because Israel knows that Bush will gladly follow Israel to the gates of Hell). There is also an election in Israel coming up next month and no Israeli politician has suffered by being 'too hard' on Hamas. [/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]You may be surprised. Many in the Government believe that the ruling party will actually lose out by engaging in military conflict so close to an election. Moreover, to get back to the cease-fire, are you also aware that during this period, Hamas was found to be digging a major tunnel underneath the border? The tunnel was to be used to facilitate larger attacks deeper within Israeli territory. Israel destroyed this tunnel and Hamas responded with the 80 rockets that I mentioned earlier. Firstly, Hamas has no right to claim those rocket attacks as self-defense, when their tunnel was an aggressive act. Secondly, what organization attempts to attack its neighbour [i]during a mutually-agreed cease-fire[/i]?[/font] [quote]They had democracy, the people elected Hamas. But the US and Israel cannot accept the Palestinian peoples' choice so they tried to stage a coup (the US and Israel supported Fatah in its attemppts to overthrow Hamas in the Gaza). The coup failed, Hamas' control strengthened. So they tried to starve Hamas by punishing the entire 1.5 million people in Gaza, i.e. closing the borders, basically like a medieval siege. That has been going on for months, actually over a year now. And now they take it a step further and wage a war. The irony? The US wants democracy but only when the people elect the government the US likes. [/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]There are a few problems with this assertion. Yes, Hamas was elected to power. But so was Hitler. Winning one election does not somehow add legitimacy to the actions of an authority in every case. In addition, the US and Israel are once again blamed for the suffering of the Palestineans - despite the fact that Hamas itself has exhausted itself attempting to destroy its neighbour, rather than preparing its territory for democratic governance. Nobody asks this simple question: Instead of spending so much energy and resources acquiring weapons and planning attacks against a neighbouring country, why hasn't Hamas invested the [i]same[/i] energy in supporting its own people in preparation for a future Palestinean State? Put simply, Hamas clearly has no interest in real governance. It has done nothing to improve the lives of its people and instead continues down a path that only further aggrivates the living conditions of its people. As I said, these energies should be invested in bettering the conditions within its territory. It is horrific - and frankly heart-breaking - that the opposite is occurring.[/font] [quote]Why was Hamas peppering Israel with these silly rockets? Precisely to draw this kind of reaction. Hamas can then get an excellent PR deal, and afterwards they can always claim victory. There is no downside for them because this is a political and not a military problem. Hamas WANTS Israel to overreact. [/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Right, so you've just explained the legitimacy of Hamas by referring to the fact that it was elected. Yet now you're admitting that Hamas's intention is to provoke further conflict. Well, yes, it did that by firing "silly" rockets into its neighbour's territory. And now its neighbour is rightfully responding, after continuous months of attempting to ignore the problem.[/font] [quote]So why does Israel fall for this ruse? Because there is no downside for the Israeli politicians by being 'hard' on Hamas. Everybody gets what they want. Except the thousands of civilians getting caught in the crossfire.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Israel tolerated these attacks for a long time, while still honoring the cease-fire that it agreed to. After months of rocket bombardment, Israel has had enough and is now attempting to reduce Hamas's capacity to attack it further. Admittedly war is horrific and it breaks my heart to see the terrible suffering among the Palestinean people. I can not use strong enough words to express this - when I see footage and images of little Palestinean children being rushed to hospital and having no understanding of what's happening, it makes me want to cry. It is absolutely a true horror of the worst kind. And yet, I feel even worse when I think that the elected authority is facilitating and encouraging this terrible war, when it could change matters simply by recognizing Israel and ceasing its attacks. That, truly, is the greatest tragedy for the long-suffering Palestinean people.[/font]

[quote name='NinjaGirlSango']I'm by no means new, but as my sidebar is currently telling me, I haven't been here since 2006. And being now 2009, I'd say it's quite time to reintroduce myself. I've been a member of TheO since '04. I'm an 18 year old girl who's attracted to girls. I'm a pretty laid back person and enjoy conversations, whether they be small talk or in depth discussions. When it comes to anime/manga, I'm a fan of action, mecha, horror, and the absurd (Excel Saga, Azumanga). My favorite characters EVAR are Jin [I](Yu Yu Hakusho)[/I], Kaitou Kid [I](Detective Conan)[/I], Goku [I](Saiyuki)[/I], Watanuki [I](xxxHolic)[/I], and Sanosuke [I](Kenshin)[/I]. And I guess that's all for now.[/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]Welcome! Good to see you back. :catgirl: As always if you have any questions/queries, feel free to PM me if you like. Or you can ask a Moderator for help if you ever have any issues. Hope you enjoy the place - and it's good to see more manga fans too. Our little Manga Alley needs the support![/font]

[quote]Really? [i]Really?[/i] I don't expect a gold star or anything, but I do expect a lot of people to completely blow off Whoa, Mann's post (which has thus far been the most accurate in the thread), because a lot of people care more about getting their own two cents in, rather than about what has already been said.[/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Well, again, people are here to submit their opinion aren't they? On that basis I could criticize anyone for submitting an idea rather than following up on a previous post. Lame. I mean, I figure that instead of whinging about it, it's probably better to just realize that it's a totally normal part of what happens on any forum and to move on. I'm sure most people post tons of stuff that never gets directly addressed by another member - but that doesn't mean it wasn't read/acknowledged in the first place. So don't accuse everyone of blowing off his post just because everybody didn't reply to it and say [i]"Yes! I hear you!"[/i] In any case, I'm admittedly surprised to see so much cynicism surrounding "emo" and what it means. I kind of expected the younger members at least to defend something of it... so that's interesting. Then again, I guess it reflects the idea that "emo" is definitely more of a trend/fad than anything else. At least, that seems to be how most people view it.[/font]

[quote name='GodlyGuardian'][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Well, I've been a member of TheO for quite sometime and I thought I'd pop over here and see what TheBoards were all about. My interests include: oranges, confetti, comedy anime, adventure or action manga and the occasional kick-back-and-relax kind of day. 'Til then, I'll just keep getting accquainted with this forum. ^_^[/COLOR][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]Welcome! We're always happy to have new anime fans here. We are in the process of building up our anime forums, so hopefully you'll stick around for that. ~_^ Other than that, I'd highly recommend checking out the creative writing areas (like the Theater) and the Art Studio (especially Signature of the Week and Graphic Worm). If you have any issues feel free to send me a PM or create a thread in the Info Kiosk forum. This goes to other new recruits too! Welcome, everyone. :catgirl:[/font]

[quote name='Esther']Sorry you mis-read my post, James. I thought I was pretty specific when I stated in the very beginning sentence of my post that I was talking about protests and went on to speak about the protests... Also, if I was responding to a specific post I'm always sure to quote that post like I did above. :][/quote] [font=franklin gothic medium]Yeah, that's totally cool. I just wanted to emphasize the point that while the OP's original post indicated a particular bias/opinion, it doesn't necessarily advocate everything that ties in with the link provided. I know you weren't directly implying that, but the source was not immediately clear either. So, you know, it's a way to keep things on track. :catgirl:[/font] [quote][FONT="Verdana"][SIZE="1"]In my opinion, Hamas wanted this to happen.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]I kind of agree with this. I mean, what other response could Hamas expect? And then when Israel finally responds, this provides Hamas with the justification to a) continue attacks and b) recruit more people. It also invariably adds to the sense of desperation and anger among Palestineans, hard-liners and moderates alike. So unfortunately this cycle just continues. And Hamas is really the linch pin for a great deal of what is happening now (and what has happened for years, really). The difficult part is that the moderates within Palestine can't dislodge a group with such power and zeal. Most of all I feel sorry for those caught in the crossfire who have absolutely no power to change things, at least individually.[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think that the stats reported in this article are probably right and are probably a reflection of society in general. But as you point out, the question is to what extent should people be getting a helping hand (or some kind of actual intervention). It's such a complex area, because there are some areas where I do believe that intervention is necessary (like, for instance, schools ensuring that they stock and promote healthy food - or, that food manufacturers appropriately label all products). Much of the "intervention" that is needed, though, is in the form of "nudges" I think - much like the article suggests. It's better, for instance, to [i]encourage[/i] healthy living by promoting innovations, choices and positive messages rather than diving in and banning something. Ultimately I think we'll all make decisions that aren't the best for us. For instance, I had coffee this morning. I don't often drink it, but sometimes I do. Coffee isn't really great to have in the morning for a variety of reasons (including dehydration), yet I still sometimes drink it anyway. Is it doing me any longterm damage? Possibly. Doubtful though. Nevertheless, it begs the question: do I stop drinking coffee completely? Do I basically stop [i]any[/i] enjoyable or relaxing activity because it can have some detrimental effects? There are some doctors and nutritionists who talk about this and say that moderate intake of "bad" foods (like coffee, chocolate, etc) is actually a [i]good[/i] thing. The idea is simple. If you live an entirely healthy lifestyle but get no real pleasure from your food (especially if you really punish yourself with very bland food), then the net effect is actually negative - because you never feel satisfied and you are less able to cope with stress, etc... However if you eat chocolate now and then, you're not only giving yourself an indulgence that makes you happy, but you're actually releasing endorphins that help to relax and "de-stress" you. If done in moderation, the idea is that this is actually a net positive for your health because you're considering both physical [i]and[/i] mental health. So you know, there are a lot of different perspectives on this. Plus, some foods and chemicals are worse for different groups of people. Different people's bodies have different reactions and intolerances. It's so hard to generalize on an issue like this. My general bottom line though, is that it has to always be about choice. You should be able to make an unhealthy choice if you want, so long as you aren't hurting others. For instance, you should be allowed to smoke and drink, so long as you aren't smoking in an enclosed space with others or getting drunk in public. I generally don't believe in the whole nanny state solution, because if anything, I think it takes away our ability to make good decisions - instead we pass the buck and become reliant on the state. This also means that when something goes wrong, we blame the state rather than ourselves. For me it'll always come back to the freedom to make choices and with that, the maturity to take responsibility.[/font]

[quote name='Indi'][COLOR="Indigo"][FONT="Arial"]I believe Esther is referring to the links within the article that go to [I]other[/I] articles that talk about the protests being held. Articles like this one: [URL="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/04/2458664.htm"][U]Protests[/U][/URL] where people are making overly dramatic claims like that. I doubt she was referring to a post here. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]Yeah, that's cool and all, but it wasn't terribly clear from her post. Given that a thread involves responses to the OP, it's usually a good idea to be specific when referencing stuff outside the thread. I say this partly for the sake of clarity, but also because I don't think anyone in this thread has yet had a really alarmist response to this. Anyway, summercrane, it looks like you've got a pretty good series of responses here. And for the most part everyone has been civil about it, which is always helpful. :catgirl:[/font]

[quote name='SaiyanPrincessX'][SIZE="1"]One forum thats no longer around, or atleast active was 3d forums, when it was directly linked to Open Legends, TOPAZ's website. I know it stayed open even after OL died, masterfork was always admin of that. It grew into more of a gaming forum though, and last I checked it wasn't to active.[/SIZE][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]TOPAZ had a forum? And masterfork was the admin? Hm, why does that sound like a weird nostalgic dream? Haha. I don't know where any of these people have gone now! Masterfork did make a re-appearance here a while back, but then left again. I think he's just too busy gallivanting around New York or whatever these days. :catgirl:[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Yeah, I get nostalgic quite a bit...there's a lot of great stuff that I miss. Even more than GS, I miss seeing Tony himself around! As far as communities go there aren't many I visit now. I used to visit MansonUSA forums quite a bit, but that dropped off a long time ago. I still visit the N-Sider forums a little, but not very often. And I guess at this stage I don't really have the energy to start with a new community where I don't know anyone, so I don't tend to bother with many places now.[/font]

[quote name='Mr. Maul'][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DimGray]So whatever happened to Group Sounds? Or am I just stupid? [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]I really have no idea what happened to it. I haven't heard from Tony in a long time. Someone else may have a better answer for you on that. I just assume that GS ended up expiring and Tony decided not to renew it. *shrug* Anyway, I might edit this thread title just a bit to give this a little more oomph. :catgirl:[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Esther, I don't think anyone here is making the claims you mention in your post. Certainly I haven't seen anyone here compare this to the Holocaust. I think most people are just trying to understand what is behind the current offensive in Gaza and obviously that's a pretty complex thing. On the surface you can say that Israel is reacting to Hamas. And then someone else will say that Hamas is reacting to Isreal's occupation of their land. And so it goes. The problem, from my perspective, is that there's no sense of balance to this issue much of the time. Nor is there an appreciation of the complexity involved - the idea that, for instance, all Palestineans are not the same - or indeed that all Israelis are not the same. There are, after all, some within Israel who continue to support a heavy settlement expansion program (although most don't). As far as comparing this to South Ossetia, I don't really view them as being too comparable. The South Ossetian dispute came about primarily as a result of the break up of the former Soviet Union. South Ossetia was claimed by Georgia quite a while ago - in fact I believe it has always been recognized as part of Georgia. Georgia then made the mistake of invading South Ossetia in an attempt to drive out Russian forces - the end result, of course, was a massive and pretty foolish miscalculation. But the outcome there says more about a Russian desire to re-assert its former dominance than any perceived oppression by Georgia.[/font]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"] Addendum to James: Well the land thing is definitely debatable, the point is that Hamas/Palestine should have probably cut with the rockets thing once their territory was returned, or ceded, whatever you want to call it.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] [font=franklin gothic medium]It's only really debatable if you're talking about territory inside the 1947 borders. Those borders, as far as I know, are the most universally supported on both sides. However Israel was occupying areas well outside that territory. Moreover, they continued to establish and grow illegal settlements right up until recent years. To their credit, Ariel Sharon actually dismantled those settlements focibly - in doing so, he angered many of the hard-liners within his country. But it was the right thing to do. It was a sign of compromise. I agree that Hamas should have ceased the rocket fire if it wanted to move forward on any kind of deal - but again, I think we all know that Hamas is an extreme organization. It is even less interested in negotiation than Fatah was (and although they had their extremists, their biggest problem was just lack of true leadership I think). In any case, I don't think that the OP was sitting in Hamas's corner or anything. I don't get that impression from the opening post. Rather, there's a clear question about the legality of Israel's current action. I personally think that what they are doing is legal based on the U.N. charter, but I'm certainly no expert in international law. The broader questions about "who is right", however, are far more complex and difficult.[/font]

[font=franklin gothic medium]To be fair though, Raiha, Israel only "gave up" land that wasn't theirs to give in the first place. And therein lies the problem - there are people who sit on either side of this debate, but in reality both parties are almost equally at fault. On one side you have Israel, which has attracted a certain reaction by settling on land that is not rightfully her own. And then you have the Palestineans, who do not have their own house in order - they currently have a fanatical leadership which contains people who won't rest until all of Israel is destroyed. In other words, for many, there is no room for any kind of peace or compromise. To answer your question directly, summercrane, it's worth pointing a couple of things out. Firstly, under international law, every state has the right to self defense. During the cease-fire period, Palestinean extremists continually fired rockets into Israeli territory. For a long time, Israel simply tolerated this. But now, obviously, they've had enough and they are acting in self-defense. That is totally understandable. Furthermore, the Israeli military has had a deliberate policy of calling around and warning people of impending military strikes, so as to ensure that minimum casualties are suffered by civilians. Now, admittedly, this isn't fool-proof and obviously civilians will die. Civilians die in every single war - that is one of the ugly and unfortunate realities of war. The Palestineans should really be asking themselves why they elected Hamas in the first place. I think most Palestineans want peace and most are happy to compromise, but they have a government in power that is unwilling to do so. It's also worth noting that in the past (particularly the 70's I think), it was actually the United States who shot peace opportunities down by encouraging Israel to reject proposals that it found acceptable. Had the US not been involved in those negotiations, we may very well have the "two state solution" by now. Unfortunately it's an extremely messy situation that has been going on for a very long time. There is no simple answer. And one can not make a blanket generalization about either side, too - both sides definitely have their positives and negatives. What matters is that, I think, most people on both sides want a peaceful solution that involves compromise. It's just very unfortunate that the hard-liners are often the ones in control.[/font]