Semjaza

[spoiler]The computer wasn't actually Adam... it just had the memories of him. So if it's actually [i]him[/i] it would have to take place before Fusion. That's actually interesting because Fusion makes mention of her old missions with his help... this seems to be using that idea. I was hoping they would do something like this. I didn't expect it so soon though.[/spoiler] Anyway, should be shown a bit at E3... so I'm excited.

Well I'm not in highschool... But I was a couple years ago heh. I took mostly AP classes... English, History, Chemistry, Biology, Physics, Calculus (and probably others I forget). I never did well enough on the tests for them to count (so I didn't even wind up taking some of them). Thanks to my school closing Junior year (and having to go elsewhere for Senior), I wound up not giving a crap about most of those AP classes and barely made my way through them (there were other reasons too). It was pretty stupid of me, because I threw away any benefits doing well on the AP tests would have given me. I just wasn't interested in doing well in school anymore. The tests themselves (the ones I took anyway), weren't that bad overall. The main problem, I thought, were the damn essay style questions. I could never tell exactly what they were asking of me. The math one was definately the least enjoyable heh.

He's saying that now, which is rather ironic considering some of his weight comments earlier in the year. I have no idea who any of these people are, but I'm rather surprised at who at OB actually watches it (not that it's a bad thing, mind you heh).

I fit in everywhere I go and everyone loves me. I thought it was like this for everyone, but I guess not. Since I know someone here will take that literally, I'm going to write more... bleh. Anyway, I'd have to say everyone feels out of place at some time in their lives. Myself, I do rather often... but mostly because I [i]make[/i] myself feel out of place by not taking part in things.

If this turns into yet another "What is and what's not punk" debate, I'm going to shoot someone. If you consider Good Charlotte punk that's fine with me. They're more pop-punk than anything (which I think as a genre is pretty much an oxymoron), but they fit in it. There are many aspects of punk, just like any other genre, and most of what I like doesn't fit into pop-punk at all. It's really just an argument between the people who want punk to themselves and want to keep it "pure" in some sense (which is hilarious, because punk has always had these types of bands - Sex Pistols are more manufactured than most people realize, for example) and those that like the popified and radio friendly pop-punk. It's not of importance in my opinion. Anyway, I don't like this band.

I don't remember which part of the game... but there were a lot of milk drinking references that made me think of the Milk Bar in the book/movie... as well as the costume Conker was wearing. I was at the store the other day, and they had a few copies of this left... It was only $4.99 new lol.

My favorite animals are ferrets and rats, as they were the best pets I've had so far. My sign is Leo, since I was born in early August. Not something I care about at all though heh.

Thank you for finding all those verses. My main problem is that I tend to combine all the various translations and legends together and such. All of what I know about the Nephilim says basically what you've just provided here. It seems like most of the other thoughts on them are legend, and I'm not sure of the exact roots. Lucifer and Satan are totally interchangable at this point, but I tend to focus on Old Testament writings and such, so I thought it was good to differentiate. In terms of this manga... It depends on if you are concentrating on Old Testament or New. If you are going to somehow put the war between God's angels and the fallen angels, then I think it's an important point that it was always Satan. However, if you are going to stick with the New Testament, you can just stick with Lucifer because any mention of that name by most anyone today is referring directly to Satan anyway. So I guess it's up to you heh.

I am confusing them with all the Watchers stories I guess... heh. The thing is, the Nephilim aren't angels (good, evil or otherwise) and the Watchers are... so I was mixed up a bit there. Seems odd to call them that. Ginny's description makes it seem like the author gave the Nephilim the role of the Watchers almost, so hmm heh. I don't really understand how they could be heroes while commiting some of the bad acts they did (such as cannibalism)... but I guess, like with anything, there were good and bad ones. I am going to Borders tonight, I'll have to check it out.

This thread isn't about Linkin Park...

The opening FMV was cool, but it has like nothing to do with anything. As for Matoya, [spoiler]she should be in a cave pretty close to the bridge above Cornelia[/spoiler]. As for the last thread, might as well leave it dead. I don't think anyone spoke about playing the actual game in it other than me lol.

Exorcist isn't really scary at all at this point, although there are some creepy scenes... a lot of it has just been absorbed by so many other movies since then that it's hard to be bothered by it. I'd have to say that Suspiria is one of the better ones, and excellently directed as well. Definately worth seeing if you are into that sort of stuff.

The Bible (Old Testament) makes it seem like a couple hundred angels revolted against God originally (it only names like 20 that aren't named elsewhere), and then Revelations says 1/3... so what, there are less than 1,000 angels in Heaven at the time? Seems like a rather low number heh. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina [/i] [B] I don't personally think God planned the fall of mankind or Satan, or any of the angels. He knew it was going to happen, but that doesn't make it a part of his plan. I believe the plan (for restoration) came about as a result of the fall, rather than the fall being a part of that plan.[/B][/QUOTE] I don't think that he planned it either... but my answer to that was in regards to why even keep Satan around in the first place, and I'm very much lead to believe that the whole reasoning for his existance (or simply the writing of these parts in the Bible) at this point would be to balance things out and allow mankind a decision between good and evil (if things were even that clear cut). That's all I was meaning by that. I personally, based on things that happen and are in the Bible, don't think God is/would be omniscient... which is why I said "supposedly" because this is something people like to argue. Those verses you provided would have to be taken extremely literally for me to think that God didn't know what was going on. By asking those involved what happened, I think God was giving them a chance to tell the truth and, guess what, they simply didn't. That of course resulted in his anger. I don't think, based on everything else in the book, that he was simply unsure of what was going on. I suppose it is possible (and I'm simply making this up to explain it) that God isn't omniscient when it comes to actual sins committed, which would explain why he questioned sins in such a way. As for Sage, you mentioned some of them... There are basically 9 main types, referred to as "choirs", although there is another that doesn't seem to get mentioned much (and might actually be the Cherubim, but I'm not sure - they have simliar duties). In order - Seraphim, Cherabim, Ophanim (aka Thrones), Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels and lastly Angels. I'll write what they are, but that's the list heh. [b]Seraphim[/b] - The angels closest to the throne of God. There are a few different descriptions on their appearance. Mostly that they are angels with four faces and six wings (two covering their face, two on their feet and two for flying). They are also described as "burning fires of love" (which symbolizes their pure love for God) that no one, not even angels, can look upon because of their intensity. Seraphim included Seraphiel, Metatron and Michael. I forget the name of the fourth. [b]Cherubim[/b] - Second to the seraphim, and holders of God's wisdom. They were the ones sent to earth for most of God's tasks... The annunciation of Christ for example. They also were placed at the gates of Eden once Adam and Eve were cast out, where they guarded the path to the Tree of Life while holding large flaming swords. How cherubim look is somewhat confusing, because of all the paintings and sculptures of them later on. People would construct giant animal like statues and place them to act as guardians to temples and so on, but the I don't think the Bible ever refers to them as such (they are shown as guardians on the Ark of the Covenant though, which might have lead to that). They don't look like childlike cupids. I've seen books show them as massive animal like creatures with human faces... but basically they are just the standard looking angel with 4 wings. Chiefs of the Cherubim included (I don't remember them all lol) Ophaniel, Cherubiel, Raphael, Gabriel and Satan (well before he left). I have no idea why Satan was looked so highly upon in Heaven when he was simply a Cherub. I have no idea why he was portrayed with 12 wings while there either, as Cherubs have 4 and Seraphs have 6... Oh well lol. So Satan and Lucifer are different things from what I can tell. Satan was an annointed Cherub, and was actually basically God's personal guardian. Of course, God himself doesn't really need a guardian, but he has chosen to administer things through his creations rather than himself. Lucifer is more of a mistranslation than anything... but they are equated as one like I said in my other long post lol. I guess honestly at this point in time, it doesn't even matter if you consider them the same. However, I will admit that there is plenty of argument saying that Satan and Lucifer are in fact the same being, despite what I have said. The main argument being that they basically did the exact same things and felt the exact same way. Neither were created evil, both were considered God's most beautiful creation and so on (if you go with the idea that they are both actually angels). I personally just side with the idea that they are two very different beings because I think everything points to that. So really, I guess you could go either way because there is no 100% fact proving one or the other. It gets confusing because the name Lucifer (originally a mythological god) wasn't even applied to Satan until St. James' Bible was made based on translations my St. Jerome even earlier. Lucifer is a Latin word, not a Hebrew one which makes its existance makes even less sense. The original Hebrew books don't even make mention of anything called Lucifer, it was always Satan or that king I mentioned (I think he was kind of Tere or something). So really, it's more of a mistranslation than anything. There isn't an actual Lucifer. Satan never changed his name, it's just what he became known as due to mistranslations (which originally, like I said, were speaking of an ancient fallen king). This link involves Mormonism (although mentions very little about it), but I think it is one of many places that tells the reasoning behind what I am trying to say rather well - [url]http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml[/url] Basically that the name Lucifer was applied to something very different than Satan himself, and through many centuries began to be equated as one. [b]Ophanim[/b] are also called Thrones, but they were more like charioteers around God's chariot. Their wings were all joined to eachother, and they could not turn when they travelled - they simply looked forward. They also had four faces; one of a man, and 3 of animals. They are looked upon as the angels of peace and submission. [b]Dominions[/b] Jewish legend says that the success of a nation is decided by the Dominions, which are part of the guardian angels. They wear long robes and hold a golden staff in one hand and the Seal of God in the other. They also regulate the other angels, letting them know the will of God. [b]Virtues[/b] are also known as "the shining ones" and are in charge of nature itself. They also are the angels of miracles and courage and are generally depicted when one is struggling with his or her faith. I have no idea on their apperance, but it seems as though they would look like a traditonal angel. They are [i]always[/i] in a group (at least two) and never alone. [b]Powers[/b] were the first angels created by God. They are responsible for keeping the world safe from demons and keep our souls safe. I've also read that they are thought to lead people up into Heaven when they die. Again, I don't know how they look. [b]Principalities[/b] protect religions and guard nations They were also considered to be the guardians over the nations and the leaders of the world. They are more or less "princes." They are described as soldiers usually. [b]Archangels[/b] are well known obviously... In command of messages to men from God, as well as the armies of the angels. They are constantly in battle with the fallen angels. There are seven main ones (perhaps that is all, but I'm not sure about that) which include Uriel, Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. And lastly, [b]angels[/b]... They are the ones closest to humanity. There are various angels for various things... Angels of planets, seasons and so on. Certain ones you pray through for other problems, and so on. As for the 10th type, I don't know what group they are in, but they are referred to as Scribes. They most likely are part of another order/choir of angels, but I've never seen it said which one they were in. They preside over the Celestial Court and write down the experiences of mankind into the Book of Judgement, which will be read aloud during the final days. There were three that were chosen for this task I think, but I don't know if they were ever named. So that should help some, I suppose heh. As for your book, Ginny... why does it say the Nephilim are the ones that took human wives? That's not how it worked lol. It sounds like an interesting book though... I'd check it out, but I'm afraid it would start confusing me between stories and the actual writings and legends lol. Edited for something I wrote totally wrong and getting rid of a lot of repeated points heh.

...that's not what I said. "I recognize them all, except the first (I blur all those DBZ style names together to be honest...)." Meaning, I remember them all except the first because it's DBZ and I blur them all together as one (there has to be at least 50 of them here, and they all seem to have numbers after them). Edit: Okay, then we're clear lol :D ---- Anyway, it's a good banner. I think your names on the bottom seem somewhat out of place because they seem to want to go over the border you put around the image. Other than that, I don't really have any problems with it.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pressure [/i] [B][color=purple][size=1]... everything Pressure said in the last post... [/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE] I just want to say that was incredibly well said, and really how I feel in the general scheme of things. Whether it's concious or subconcious, people's "look" is something that they are simply totally in control of really... and I agree with you in basically every in (and I'm surprised honestly heh). In a sense, I honestly group pretty much everyone. I don't feel like I judge them based on it... but most everyone fits into some sort of group. I even just call guys in suits downtown "businessmen," regardless of what they are doing. There are always people that don't fit into really any one group, and I've been told by people I know personally that's how I am... not that I honestly believe it.

Did all of you join on the same day... or are all of those your previous usernames? heh I recognize them all, except the first (I blur all those DBZ style names together to be honest...). I'm just not positive, with all the name changes on here in general lol.

Heh, works for me :) The funny thing about this thread is that the main reason I got into all this stuff in the first place was to make a comic heh. I even have several pages drawn up. Of course, that was years ago... The comic is mostly dead (although I still want to bring it back), but I still read things concerning all this. It's amazing some of the stuff that is brought up because of it. Anyway, goodluck with your manga anime_gurl. Hopefully what I wrote didn't confuse everything totally hehe.

Like I said (in less words), it originates from a misreading of Isaiah. The word "devil" was used to desrcibe Lucifer when people who studied religions identifed him with the falling start in the verse from Isaiah. Then Lucifer and Satan became interchangable. Honestly... There is obviously a difference between Lucifer and Satan in Heaven. They had totally seperate roles when they were up there. I don't really think Lucifer would simply don the name Satan so people weren't confused... Satan's role is to mostly confuse, trick and lead people astray in the first place, so I doubt he'd care heh. I really am not surprised that people don't really believe what I'm saying, as it goes against basically anything people have been told in general... But that's how it works out if you read upon many aspects of it. As for your paragraph about why God doesn't do something about all that... I basically agree with you. Like I said, it's one of those things people really aren't just supposed to question in a sense. If you have faith in this sort of stuff, you're just supposed to trust in God's ways really. Personally, I'm not a remotely religious person and I kind of follow a combination of various religons and philosophies I feel are right... as such I don't really have an agenda with any of this stuff, I am just presenting what I have read and studied up on personally. As such, I hope this doesn't turn into a religious debate myself... as that's definately not something I want to happen. This sort of stuff just interests me. Edit - Added some and cleared things up a bit.

I am not asking anything heh. I already know the reasoning as to why. What I said was all in response to what Cloricus asked and I gave the opposing viewpoint to what I was saying. It was rhetorical, not some questions I was actually bringing up because I didn't understand. It was just adding credence to the fact that these types of questions simply just go in circles. Besides, I wouldn't know all that stuff I spent all that time typing up and not know that :p I do appreciate the input though :) Edit - Added more for clarity.

I'd have to say that if people got off his back about the definition of "overview" and all this other nonsense... there'd be some room for discussion. He's already had some more threads just like this that had a few posts and no problems. Endymion and myself have both said things specifically about the bands and songs he has mentioned... and that alone gives this thread more posts and discussion than many threads that appear here and fall down the list with zero posts.

God more or less imprisoned Satan. Satan symbolizes a choice, or human's free will (which technically Adam and Eve gave everyone, despite people saying it was God's "plan" all along)... So we are presented with choices because of this free will. The choice between good or evil, the choice between loving God and hating him (and of course all the various gray levels in that). I will say that the Bible itself never really gives an answer (basically you aren't supposed to question it, because it is simply God's way heh), but I think that is the most likely explanation based on everything I've read about (in simple terms, because I could go on about it forever otherwise lol - nothing is ever that black and white). Honestly, this all can be argued to death because God is supposedly omniscient (which brings questions like - so why couldn't he forsee these things, or deal with them instantly?)... so I don't think there will ever be a real answer to it. The typical Christian response to it simply will not appease people who ask it in the first place lol.

Actually, the guy that first patented (something Kennard) the Ouija Board claimed it meant "good luck" in Egyptian, when it actually doesn't at all. Kennard claimed the board tell him that though, so they kept the name anyway. His board was based on other's work though... something which had been around in various forms for quite some time and became known as a "planchette." The most modern version preceding the Ouija Board was made in France supposedly. He wound up selling the name Ouija to Parker Bros. anyway, and now it's mostly considered a toy. I've never seen anything claim anything about French and German words for the title, even if they fit. So yeah, I won't ask how you know these things... :p

A few things. Satan and Lucifer aren't the same being. They are two totally seperate fallen angels. They are equated as one because of a misreading in the Old Testament. Satan was an archangel and an annointed cherub. Satan was one of the princes of the Nine Celestial Orders, Chief of the Cherubim, and in charge of the Order of Virtues. Satan is a bit of a confusing thing honestly. Instead of the standard 6 wings, he had 12 (angels in the forms according to the Old Testament honestly scare the crap out of me lol). He was also created on the 6th day of Creation, according to some things I've seen. His purpose was apparently to test man, although God set him some specific limits. Lucifer himself is basically the first fallen angel (although it is believed the name was applied to a falling king rather than an angel - so it becomes confusing), although there are angels before him that have done non-angelic things (as in, bad lol). He basically was removed because of his pride and hatred (maybe malice is a better word). However, the Old Testament never makes a single mention of "fallen" angels. The terms for that originate in the New Testament. Satan is the one that basically got jealous of God's power and love for his human creations, Adam and Eve. Everyone knows the story of the garden of Eden and the snake's temptation... it went from there. It was basically farther than Satan was supposed to go. From there came the revolt. For me, the revolt is very confusing at times. There are many aspects to it, and I have a very hard time figuring out what order they came in... but this is the summary. I don't know if it was a 1/3 of angels... but a couple hundred were involved in the revolt against God. The Book of Enoch (which is in the mostly removed Apocrypha) names some of the more important ones. Then comes the Watchers (aka Grigori, but Watchers is easier heh), which I mentioned earlier. They look like giant, silent humans. There are two types, good and "evil," both of which reside in different Heavens (there are various levels according to Jewish legends). The evil ones are the ones that lusted after human women (ALL angels were male, despite the most angels being portrayed as female in our culture). Cheif among them was Semjaza-Azazel (although I've seen him listed as two angels - Semyaza and Azazel - he is apparently one entity and the main problem among the Watchers, and the one who lead them down... [b]so if anything, Semjaza-Azazel (or Semyaza and Azazel if you prefer - like I said, depends on what I read), are two of the main angels to side with Satan's plans... although I'm not exactly sure if they were directly involved with eachother. (I bolded this because it should answer the original question heh).[/b]. [Something related to this ... One of the evil Watchers/Grigori is known as Satanil. I'm not sure if he is Satan himself, or another]. There were children conceived, known as the Nephilim. These are also somewhat confusing because there is so many contradictory things written about them. I've read that they are four faced giants (a human head, lion, snake and hawk if I remember correctly). I've also read that they were simply giant versions of humans that lived rather peacefully... and lastly I've read that they lived on the flesh of humans and each other, effectively being the first "vampires" (I am not clear if they were always like this, or only [i]after[/i] God sent his angels to dispose of them). Anyway, eventually came down to earth and got involved with women (as I said above) and taught men various things. Among them: war, makeup (apparently war style makeup mostly), blacksmithing (weapons and armor), magic, medicine and abortion. However, some of the other angels complained (I believe the archangels) to God. Apparently these "secrets of Heaven"were not to be known. The Nephilim were mostly slaughtered as they were simply not supposed to exist. The angels involved (including the angel Semjaza Azazel, among others) were banished and imprisoned in the sky and earth, where they will remain until the Apocalypse where they will recieve their final judgement like everyone else. The confusing thing about the Watchers in general is that I'm not sure of their exact roles. They are more or less included in the revolt, but their reasoning for being in it seem so much different than Satan's. I'd assume that the angels and the Watchers had an overall massive battle though. Anyway, they are all known as fallen angels now. It is important to note that the early Church denounced all of this, with the idea that angels cannot have intercourse with humans. They were banished to the earth... although like I said, the Watchers were supposedly imprisoned in the and earth (sky and sea too if I remember right) itself awaiting judgement. There's argument on weather or not Hell is actually inside the earth or in another level of Heaven (and Hell itself even has many levels). So really, if you want to get the full story... you have to read very many different aspects of this from a few different religions, many of which contradict eachother. There doesn't seem to be any account of what happened that is held higher than the others. There are so many books to go through, highly religious and otherwise. I recommend something that speaks of Jewish lore, the various levels of Heaven, one of those books that deals specifically with angels and devils... as well as Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno. Anyway, I hope all of this is of some help. At any rate, I hope this shows that my username here wasn't simply picked because it has lots of z's :p ---------------------------------- Edit - Some other important things. Lucifer is also part of ancient mythology (Roman and Greek), where he originally gets his meaning of "bearer of light." He was son of Aurora, the goddess of dawn. I'm rather sure that the Jewish/Christian version of Lucifer is based on him. Azazel is also part of ancient mythology. I forget which, but he was a Pagan got that had sacfricies offered up to him. He is depicted as a half human, half goat (much like Satan at this point). Again, they aren't the exact same beings, as they are from totally different religions. I have a hard time differentiating at times, as things aren't clear as to wheather Semjaza-Azazel and Azazel are the same or totally different.

Lost Kingdoms is totally real time based though... Like you run around and use the cards as direct attacks. Lost Kingdoms 2 is even doing away with random battles. This is turn based, and as such I have to think it will play out more like a Magic game or something. It sounds like it could be quite good, and judging from some of the screens I've seen it looks damn good too (especially some of the lighting). I'm honestly far more interested in this than PSO. I hope it's either free, or they just charge a flat rate so you can play both this and PSO Episode II.

The Apocrypha has been translated for who knows how long... that's hardly new and it's not exactly difficult to find. It's still part of some versions of the Bible, and others include it as a seperate entity. No matter what you're doing, I suggest checking that group of books out though. The stuff on the Watchers especially. In fact, it's where I got the name Semjaza Azazel from in the first place. I love reading that sort of stuff.