Iraq: Debate

[Sui Generis]

Ok I know there have been subjects on this before (well I'm pretty sure) but I ask that noone closes this...yet.

I was thinking about it today and was interested on what you think about the not attacking Iraq issue. I'm not just interested in an answere such as "I hate war...its icky" or "Kill them d*** muslim sh**s" I'm looking for this to be more of a debate.

Although if I see the second one I will immediatly notify a mod and have this closed. This thread is not ment to persecute others for their beleifs it is merely to state your opinions and give "Proof" of them.

Again if I see any flaming I'll immediatly ask the mods to close this. Also don't worry you don't have to type this LOOONGGG detailed post, just long enough to get your point across.

Example:

Personally I think we should go to war with Iraq. No I do not condone war, and normally strongly am against it however Sudaam has gone to far. We've warned him many times and he refuses to listen. He'll continue doing the same things, untill we stop him. Here I'll use an old Bible saying "Spare the rod, spoil the child."

Now we can look at Sudaam as a spoiled brat at this moment because noone has gone in there and truly taught him a lesson. I am not saying that America is the one that SHOULD do this, or has the DEVINE RIGHT to, I'm just saying someone has to, and from the media here in America there are no signs of anyone doing it, so I say America lets go get him!

[Guest Matt]

[color=red][b]I think that we should go to war with Iraq. Saddam definitly has nuclear and biological weapons, which he could use against us. Country that doesn't like us + nukes = bad. Cold War anyone?

He has also attacked countries that we are allied with before (Kuwait) and we have went in and stopped him, but he has not gotten the picture. He continues to delay UN Weapons inspectors so he can hide his weapons, he re-elected him self, and he is a ferocious dictator that must be stopped. We don't want another Hitler.[/b][/color]

[James]

[color=royalblue]Well, what do we know? We know that Iraq has messed with weapons inspectors in the past (they've told us as much). We know that Iraq still posesses scud missiles (both medium and long range). We know that Iraq currently posesses upwards of 20,000 litres of VX and/or Sarin. And finally, perhaps most importantly...we know that Iraq's leader is an absolute psychopathic killer.

You know that in Baghdad there is a statue of two arms coming out of the ground with swords criss-crossed...and at the foot of the statue on either side, there are helmets of vanquished enemies scattered everywhere. The arms were modeled after Saddam himself. How nutty is that?

To sum up my point of view; I won't be sorry to see Saddam go. Nor will the Iraqi people. Nor will the Middle East as a whole.

I am concerned about what happens afterwards though. What plan exists for post-Saddam Iraq? Will the INC step in to form a democratic Parliament? Or will the USA occupy the nation for the next five to ten years while it gets back on its feet? (ala Japan, post WWII). I'm not really worried either way...but I do feel that it's better to put a solution out there beforehand, to reassure everyone.

Having said all of that, North Korea is a much bigger threat right now. Fourth largest military in the world...extremely long range missles that can reach the other side of the world...and a highly active nuclear development program (probably much more active than Iraq's program).

As an Australian, that worries me more. North Korea tested a ballistic missile in 1998, which nearly hit Japan...and Japan is in my neighbourhood. It could have continued on and hit just about any country here. Very worrying.[/color]

[Genkai]

eeeeeeeeeeeee..... im a hippie, i go to peacxe rallies...... i thought we got rid of king george lol........im heading a lambchop campaign for peace. it's all good. wait no, bombing iraq aint. not cool.

why? well, i could rant, i have to go.................. but really, read "common sense" by thomas paine, same thihngs apply now as then. there. well, not all of it, but yall know.. well, most of it doesnt.. whatever. paine was a good man. more tomoorow when i dont need sleep and i have the chance to.

[Kent]

Well just as anyone who knows me on the boards should know, I support actions to deal with Iraq.

I'm not really sure how, but then again, I'm not a military strategist.

I think the question about saddam is, do we let him kill more.

I know everyone here knows about the 5,000 Iraqi kurds saddam killed with nerve gas.

I'm sure everyone here knows that he killed five fold that number of Iranians during the war between the two countries.

I hope everyone knows that saddam considered Kuwait the 19th provence of Iraq and felt he was doing nothing but taking something back that was already his.

These sorts of actions are all actions that can indicate Saddam is a mad, dangerous person.

He needs to go...

But I also think that James has an excellent point, N. Korea is a "more" pressing threat.

But a lesson can be learned from the N. Koreans. During the early to mid ninties former pres. William Clinton made a deal with the N. Koreans that had the north Koreans agreeing to not make nukes in a trade for economic support and food.

As it can be seen, the N. Koreans were not the ones who kept their end of the bargain.

This is all relevant to Iraq for one reason.

Containment doesnt work.

Never will, Never has.

Only threats of mutual destruction kept the Russians at bay.

Dealing with Iraq shouldnt be a difficult question towards the angle of, doing it or not. When and how may be more difficult to figure out.

What to do about N. Korea? That is a difficult question which will be really hard to deal with.

[GotenksSSJ343]

What a Conicidence we had this same debate in Civics well I think we should wait because.

A. Iraq hasn't launched anything yet. But they still are dangerous.
B. We have alot of troops still in Afaganistan note these wars are gonna cost a bundle and I mean more that 9,999,999,999x you get my drift.
C.We have those gunns that can blow missles in mid air except the problems of the chemicals getting into the ocean/US.
D. Every other problem in the US.
E.Tomorrows Election day so Vote <--- Put that for no apparant reason.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Why do you have to turn everything into a dumb anti-American rant?

Biological weapons on their own people? Please. You're sounding like a nutty conspiracy theorist when you say that.

You can't compare Iraq to America. There is [i]no[/i] comparison.

Secondly, you are forgetting decades of history. America has never once been a conquering force. You know the key thing with America that people forget? When America administered Japan after WWII, it GAVE BACK the country to its people. Do you think Iraq would do the same thing? I have a deep respect for the USA, in terms of how it has ended these wars in the past.

The USA did the same thing with Germany and most of Europe. It didn't say there as an occupying force. It secured the area and then gave the nation back to its people. Japan would not be the second most powerful economy if it weren't for the USA's efforts. And just look at Japan's society now -- Japan is Australia's closest trade partner, whereas in WWII, Japan was trying to invade us. Big difference, largely thanks to the United States.

And what the hell are you talking about when you refer to weapons inspectors in the United States? Unlike Iraq, the USA documents all of its biological and nuclear arsenal. Not only that, but the USA has destroyed much of its own biological and nuclear arsenal over the last few years.

It may not be perfect, but hell...don't ever compare Iraq to the USA. That's just wrong. Let's focus on the debate over Iraq and avoid turning every post into a "let's flame America" situation. [/color]

[Guest cloricus]

Ah screw it I will just delete it.

-Lord Epssy

[James]

[color=royalblue]Delete the post rather than engage in a debate? What's the point of posting in a debate thread if you're not going to debate? ;)

Anyway...if this thread does infact stay on topic without straying into "big bad America" or something that isn't really directly related...it will have to be closed.

If a proper debate can be conducted, then that's fine.[/color]

[GotenksSSJ343]

Stupid me.......... Ok let's just blow up Suddein go into double war that way afterwords we can be the almighty fighters once again. *stops sarcasm* But don't forget all the people who will help us on the way and the innocent people also in Iraq.*stops more sarcasm and gets some candy to stay up*




But seriously we probably have to go to war because of his nukes and his bogus Election and he's the only one vote for so it's
Yes= (live) VS. No=)die of course) for Suddien.

[Phantom]

As a Canadian, I can merely post my neighbourly opinion on the US of A, which I will do later in this post.

First and foremost, war between Iraq is emminent, has been for like ten years. Tangling their ineptness to comply to various multinational investigations was only the begining of it.

Since I dont have any solid information to back my opinions up. I will just state my opinions in the least spam-like way.

If USA goes to war without UN support, they will totaly wreck their overall relationship with the worlds peacefull countries, and set themselves up for plenty of critisism, but I'm hoping SOMEONE takes Saddam out, there are so many reasons why I cant name any without giving the proof which I currently do not possess.

North Korea? If Australia has concern, if Japan has concern, than Canada has concern as another member of the British commonwealth, than Britain has concern than UN has concern than the state (hehe oh yeah) has concern... North Korea may be dangerous, but if they piss in the wind of a hailstorm, its gona bite their pecker off and beleive me, if they launch anything, EVERYONE is gona jump down their throat. ....needless to say if China decides to ally them, its gona be one fierce war...hopefully they wont.

->MK

[Mitch]

[color=red] I myself don't think we should go to war until we have the united nations backing us up.

Because if we do initiatively attack Iraq, many other countries would be very rather angry.

One of the facts is of course oil, but there are numerous others, like some nations [i]support[/i] Iraq.

Now, I don't have that much understanding of our history with Iraq ect., although I know a little. But this could turn into another World War. I'm certain it could. I mean, if all of the nations which support Iraq went against us, I'm certain our allies would then retaliate.

And poof. You've got another war.

I'm hoping that Bush is smart enough to wait on the United Nations. But who knows, he's already been doing a faulty job letting his cabinet run him, so I wouldn't be surprised.[/color]

[Red]

[b]I love a good ol' debate :)

I think going to war with Iraq now would be like throwing the first punch in a fight. Regardless of what opposing countries think, no one can say for absolute certain that Iraq has a nuclear/bilogical weapons arsenal.

Of course, I'm not denying that I think that Iraq is somehow stockpiling weapons. I believe they have some weapons of mass destruction at their disposal, but how many and what they intend to do with them is uncertain.

I agree that North Korea is a far larger threat at the current moment in time, but then again, if all the other big countries have nuclear weapons programs, why can't North Korea? I understand that they signed a form of agreement saying that they wouldn't build nuclear weapons, but it was going to happen eventually.

Finally... If George Bush cares as much about his economy as he says he does, then I doubt America will jump on the "let's go to war" bandwagon. It has been proven that war can boost a countries economy, but American will need to watch it's step unless they want to go into all out war. The same applies to Britain, and much of the EU.[/b]

[Justin]

First of all, I doubt we'll get the UN's support.

However, I do think Saddam needs to be taken care of. He IS a threat and anyone who doesn't believe so is blind.

But then there's the matter of what to do with him. If we kill him, he may become a martyr. If we throw him in prison, has that done him justice? I guess that's all in your opinion. I personally see folly in making him a martyr(the same applies to Osama Bin Laden), but something HAS to be done with him.

I think there should be a war with Iraq. Someone has to do it eventually.

-Justin

[Hinata]

As an American I'd say yes let's go to war with Iraq...but for some reason I'd think I'd like to strike that...
For years UN...not US inspectors have gone to do weapons inspecting and I believe that the UN should go against Iraq...
America in many events has stuck their noses where it doesn't belong. If the UN does back America and lend forces then I have no prob with the "war" on Iraq. But if America goes it alone...We'll be sought as the bad guy...and again we'll have a terrorist threat and again, etc. Everything will repeat itself..Now if Iraq threatens America (which I don't think he's done recently then we need to leave them alone) We have too many problems(here) to go off and start another war!!!!

[Sui Generis]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GotenksSSJ343 [/i]
[B]What a Conicidence we had this same debate in Civics well I think we should wait because.

A. Iraq hasn't launched anything yet. But they still are dangerous.
B. We have alot of troops still in Afaganistan note these wars are gonna cost a bundle and I mean more that 9,999,999,999x you get my drift.
C.We have those gunns that can blow missles in mid air except the problems of the chemicals getting into the ocean/US.
D. Every other problem in the US.
E.Tomorrows Election day so Vote <--- Put that for no apparant reason. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hm...I'm gonna debate some of those points....

A. THey haven't launched anything [i]Yet[/i] you mean. Ok so are you saying that we wait for him to kill thousands/millions of people? Waiting only allows his powers to grow so [i]when[/i] he attacks us it'll do alot more damage. My god by now he probably knows more about our defensive program than even some of the CIA/FBI does. Do you want to give him more time?

B. True wars cost alot of money and I won't deny that. But there is something else wars do. They create economy. Think about it. The 1920's (AKA THe ROaring 20's) were created because of the World War....everytime there has been a war our economy has boosted. This would do great leaps and bounds for America in its current "Situation." But thats not why I want them to go to war, going to war for money would be being like Sudaam himself. But Going to war would have positive affects besides taking out Sudaam.

C. True we have missles that are CAPABLE of doing this. The likelyhood of them actually hitting the nukes attacking us arn't that good. And another thing. Sudaam doesn't have to go via the sea. He can use Space, and America hasn't basically broadcasted their inability to stop a nuke attack from space. Its pretty much impossible to with the technology we have.

[Neon Phoenix]

Personally I do not think that America should go to war with Iraq just yet, Iraq is already a country in ruins with many people dying each day from starvation, famine, and disease.

There even a war going on [I]within[/I] Iraq, between Saddam Hussein and the Kurdish people living in the North of Iraq, Salamania to name one of the cities, right now America going to war is not something that would help the Iraqi situation any further.

Until George W Bush gives more reason as to why he should go to war with Iraq, other than just all the time saying they have weapons of mass destruction in which they still do not have sufficient proof, he should wait for UN backing before going to war, even though he can go to war without their backing.

People are saying yes, lets go to war and topple the tyrant, Saddam Hussein, but they are not thinking of the Iraqi people.

[aka Topaz]

I would like to go into war w/ Iraq, But then again I wouldnt. I would like to just to get rid of Saddam, but i dont want to because my boyfriend is in the marines, and would be first to go. Its ok when you dont have loved ones in the military and you say ya sure send some men out there, but when you do, you dont want a war, you just want them back. Its just not worth it right now to me

[DuoMax]

I am totally against war anywhere. Period. I am a pacifist and i think that violence never works. My idol is John Lennon. We have no proof of Nukes, while in North Korea, we KNOW they have stuff, but we need to use "diplomacy". The only reason for a war in Iraq is spelled O-I-L.

[Sui Generis]

I don't think so. Because honestly if we go to war with Iraq its not gonna just be Iraq against us. So therefor we'd lose ALL our oil supply. So theoretically we'd want to stay peaceful for the OIL!

[DuoMax]

The people in our government already have a plan for divvying out the oil! There is no way i wil condone violent action against anyone. Might i also add that NO terrorists came from Iraq.

[Juu]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]Well, I do know one thing...
I've never liked hearing about wars, since so many people would get hurt. Not just physically, but emotionally hurt as well.
I'm still really confused on [i]why[/i] we're going to war in the first place. I've never caught on to that.

Ever since I was born, I've lived in a democratic area... In this case, everyone in my school hates the war, and thinks of it as something pretty useless...

I'm really afraid about all this. I thought that lil North Korea/South Korea issue would be over soon, but with the current events... I won't be seeing my grandfathers' sisters anytime soon. u.u

I got news we had a few reletives in North Korea a few weeks ago. I was pretty surprised, and I actually found out four of my cousins were in the military (All Korean male residents have to train at the Military after College, otherwise it's like a disgrace...).

If we do go to war, It's shocking to think I'd be in a country that's trying to kill a member of my family. I'm really, really scared.

Anyway...... Iraq. What exactly's going to happen to Mesopotamia? oO;
That's like, one of the oldest sites we have... If we bomb Iraq, it all goes bai bai... (Social Studies teacher lecture)

If we go to war, I guess I can't support any sides. I don't know about the idea of going to war. I've always wished I'd never have to live through another war. Too bad it's prolly going to happen...[/color] [/size]

[Kent]

Hallabjah.

Look that up. Everyone, Please.

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]Having said all of that, North Korea is a much bigger threat right now. Fourth largest military in the world...extremely long range missles that can reach the other side of the world...and a highly active nuclear development program (probably much more active than Iraq's program).[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not from Australia but I really agree with you there. I'm currently more concerned with that lunatic in North Korea than I am with the lunatic in Iraq... mainly because Japan is getting closer and closer to war with them.

[Juu]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]Yeah... I heard there's been a few kidnappings going on in the Japan Sea lately...
I read it on this Korean/Japanese news website that they've been taken off ships and had to labor for the North Korean. = \

I really hope this isn't another World War... It seems like it's going to be, at least. Besides, everyone has nuclear/atomic bombs now. >< Anything could happen...[/color] [/size]