Down with Newbie Lounge--The Petition.

[Charles]

Initially, the Introduction forum appeared to be a splendid idea. The concept of giving newbies the opportunity to introduce themselves to the online community seems humble enough in theory. But, it's far from necessary. In fact, I'd say that it serves no legitimate purpose, other than impacting newbies in a negative way.

OtakuBoards stresses the importance of [I]post quality[/I]. Newbie Lounge brings down the quality of every forum by giving newbies the impression that SPAM is okay.

Looking in the forum, I see many examples that justify my case in doing away with the forum.

[U][B]The introductions aren't effective[/B][/U]

I will provide some examples:

[Quote][b]Yah...I'm [name removed for civil purposes]... I like Yugioh cards and some anime. So, hi everyone![/B][/Quote]

This introduction is erroneous. We learn little about the individual other than their immediate interests, which could have been clearly displayed when the member posted in those forums.

[Quote][B]Al Stewart - Year Of The Cat

On a morning from a Bogart movie
In a country where they turn back time
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre
Contemplating a crime
She comes out of the sun in a silk dress running
Like a watercolour in the rain
Don't bother asking for explanations
She'll just tell you that she came
In the year of the cat

She doesn't give you time for questions
As she locks up your arm in hers
And you follow 'till your sense of which direction
Completely disappears
By the blue tiled walls near the market stalls
There's a hidden door she leads you to
These days, she says, I feel my life
Just like a river running through
The year of the cat

Well, she looks at you so cooly
And her eyes shine like the moon in the sea
She comes in incense and patchouli
So you take her, to find what's waiting inside
The year of the cat

Well, morning comes and you're still with her
And the bus and the tourists are gone
And you've thrown away the choice and lost your ticket
So you have to stay on
But the drum-beat strains of the night remain
In the rhythm of the new-born day
You know sometimes you're bound to leave her
But for now you're going to stay
In the year of the cat
The year of the cat[/B][/Quote]

Here we see the inspiration for the members' name, but learn nothing more about the person. Members seem compelled to say "Follow the rules" in that forum, but they neglect to tell this individual that poetry belongs in the poetry forum, when they share another poem.

Instead, we get this:

[b][Quote]Cool.. WELCOME!!..

umm... *sees Lady A, but no sign of Sere*

BEWARE THE NFP!!!!!!

*runs*[/B][/Quote]

Sure, there are exceptions, but my main point is that we can learn about an individual from their posts in other forums and the responses don't really demonstrate the quality that the forums desire. Which, brings me to:

[B][U]The Responses Are Lackluster[/b][/U]

Essentially, we see some friendliness exhibited in the forum, but we see the same people saying the [I]same[/I] things: "Don't SPAM," and "don't break the rules." Duh.

Following those instructions, is mindless banter.

[B][Quote]I'm sure you'll find a nice, soft and cozy corner to settle yourself. Just look out for fuzzy animals. They tend to act dangerously around there[/B][/Quote]

[b][quote]Oh, fresh meat!

Don't bother understanding us. Everybody's either cannibal or insane.[/B][/Quote]

As you can see, it is quite pointless on the whole. I realize that post count doesn't register, but the forum is just useless and drags down the high standards that other forums set here.

[Sara]

[size=1]Kuja...avatar...red...century...gothic....font.... ::dies::

[edit: Never mind, then.]

Eh, I've said about the same thing in the past. I try to balance out the insanity, but, well...I'm hugely outnumbered, and don't really bother to post there much.

I agree that the place isn't really an ideal place for 'impressionable newbies' to hang out....

But if there isn't an Intro forum, we'll have intros all sorts of other places again... Mm.... [/size]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][size=1]Kuja...avatar...red...century...gothic....font.... ::dies::
[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, I changed that font and color because I feared my argument, as Shy put it, would be identified with stupidity.

[Syk3]

Yeah, new members can exibit themselves properly in the forums that they post in. If they don't, we can respectably tell them that such-and-such is wrong, other than if they say something in the introduction forum and it's okay because post quality is lowered. To create a better environment as a whole, we need to teach newbies right from the start how to post and to read the rules. Otherwise, if they see what goes on in the introduction forum, they may start off with a poor sense of quality in mind.

[James]

[color=royalblue]I must say that I agree with you, CWB.

I dislike the Newbie Lounge forum.

It was honestly only put there because so many people were posting introduction threads.

However, on any of the boards I visit, Introduction threads are considered pointless. What do they always consist of? "Blah blah blah, I'm new, hello" and then the typical responses you indicated.

Realistically, it's better for people to just start posting like normal. And perhaps if they're new, someone will add something like "Hey, you're new...welcome" in a response post.

I agree that the Newbie Lounge does facilitate spam. It does indicate that spam is okay.

If more people support removing it...I will do so.[/color]

[Shy]

[size=1]I have been here since the creation of the forum, and the post quality there has gone significantly downhill. Members do not even bother to introduce themselves properly, except for a few rare exceptions (I can still remember NoryokoAngelcry's [i]excellent[/i] intro thread). People are no longer using this forum as an er.. forum to introduce themselves to our members, and I think that it should be removed.

-Shy[/size]

[James]

[color=royalblue]That's an interesting point. Some intro threads were VERY good...most now are crap. Seriously.

But here lies the dilemma for me. On the one hand, this forum goes against just about everything we've established for OtakuBoards. On the other, it's incredibly popular (just look at the post count). In the back of my mind, I almost let it stay there to kind of draw spam away from other, more important forums. lol

Perhaps if I remove that forum I can compensate members by adding something else in its place. Maybe we should open the floor for suggestions on what should be put in its place. The forum idea can be anything...as long as it's not a Newbie Lounge. lol[/color]

[Valen]

Yes, I agree about the Newbie Lounge attracting spam. Thus why I don't post there often. With the n00b lounge gone, don't you think it would free up the bandwidth a bit? Maybe even make the n00b lounge into something like... wait... I just had an idea... Ok, you know the little money and items hack for the adventure forums that you can get? Why not turn the n00b lounge into a place where you could buy and sell items with money you get from posting? Or better idea... make a Gamers Response/Review forum there... just a thought...

[starlight]

Cool idea Valen! I totally agree! Take that forum down, to me it's just a place for spamers to start their reign of terror. If we stop them before they even start then maybe, just maybe, the spam level will drop in other parts of the boards.

[The Vampire: Ed]

Well, I too agree that the Newbie Lounge should go. It's basically a waste of space filled with spam, and nonsense. So consider this my signature on the petition.

[Tigervx]

Wait, don't posts in the Newbie lounge not count O.o?

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Tigervx [/i]
[B]Wait, don't posts in the Newbie lounge not count O.o? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, but that's not the issue. I believe that I mentioned that in my initial post. The point is, that the forum [I]encourages[/I] poor post quality, is useless, and the welcomes are all too similar. It really serves no purpose.

Also as mentioned, it just isn't up to par with the standards of the boards for the most part....

[Kinetic]

[color=darkblue]
I agree, but I say keep the picture forum, even though that has an excessive amount of spam, it still has better standards than the Newbie Lounge.

I really have no earthly idea what you could put in its place, maybe an introduction forum where they can't post, but you leave messages for the newcomers to read to get a feel for the boards. A welcome message to all new members.

But yes, it does contain a humongous amount of spam and the people who have been welcoming them have encouraged it greatly (no offense, I know you're just having fun and I have no problem with that, but it encourages the new members).

So there it is, my reasons to take it down.
[/color]

[James]

[color=royalblue]I have an idea...kind of like what you mentioned. ;)

What if we created a forum called "My Otaku". A forum where you can't post.

Instead, there are threads with all sorts of useful information. So, the first might be a welcome...the second might be our rules...the third might be a really in-depth FAQ on vB tags and stuff. And we may have a thread all about RPing...and all about sparring, etc

A kind of archive of useful information at people's fingertips.

[/color]

[Tigervx]

That seems like a good idea. You could look up a rule before you RP or something, and everything would be there.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Exactly.

I've been planning a major update to OtakuBoards.com for a while now. In place of the "Play" button, would be a "My Otaku" button.

It would link to a seperate webpage, that would include rules, news updates, announcements, community stuff, FAQs...lots and lots of stuff.

But perhaps this would be better suited to a locked forum. I mean, that way it's all right there. Easy to access.[/color]

[Lady Asphyxia]

[color=darkred]Well, I'm one of the offenders. I like the Newbie Lounge. I realise that its a spam-fest. I just like greeting the people, and interacting relaxedly, not just giving advice and fighting over the newest Iraq issue, or critisizing or praising poems, or playing an RPG. I like the juvenile bantering that goes on there. I don't care that it doesn't count towards my post count.

However, I'm not going to fight you on this. It's up to your judgement. Do whatever you think is best. Or what the majority wants.[/color]

[Mnemolth]

Aww come on folks! Stop being such party poopers! :)

Sure the Intro forum gets abused, sure there are some posts in there that may be regarded as spam.....and your point is?

As long as the posts are not in blatant and explicit breach of the Rules, leave them be. You guys should let your hair down once in a while. You don't have to be serious all the time. Or sarcastic. Or 'deep'.

The Newbie Lounge is a place to sit back and relax. To chill out, to take out the Mod Rod, or the Rolling Pin of Justice and have a bit of fun whacking people with it. Not your cup of tea? You prefer the doom and gloom? Well then don't go there. But don't get rid of it just because its not what you like.

Is not tolerance one of the virtues we advocate here? If so, this is as good a time as any to show by example. Many of us, at one time or another, would just like to be a little silly and insane. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, if you're one of those people who don't let loose once in a while, then your mental health is more questionable than those that do. At least that's what I tend to think.

So stop being so uptight and let people run around a bit, instead of chaining them up to your template of the 'model' OtakuBoard member.

[James]

[color=royalblue]Okay, Mnemolth...you're all over the place there. And you're dead wrong.

The Newbie Lounge is [i]not[/i] a place to "let our hair down". The implication is that post quality is somehow less important there than everywhere else.

Secondly, who says that the general consensus amongst users is that we have to be "doom and gloom" or "serious"? Just look at some of the topics in Otaku Lounge. Sure, many of them discuss serious issues. But many also discuss lighthearted issues as well. And that's the point.

It's exactly why I don't allow too many political threads in that forum, because sometimes members do need a break from that stuff. And therein lies the beauty of choice -- you can simply choose not to participate in the threads that don't interest you.

I don't know where the whole "needing to be serious" perception comes from. Crazy White Boy likes to participate in light hearted topics as much as anyone, from what I can tell. Does that mean we need to get all-out dumb in our posts? Of course not.

You can keep something non-spammy and coherent, while also discussing a light hearted subject. I mean, just look at my most recent thread in Otaku Lounge. I wouldn't exactly call it a serious political thread. lol

Also, yes we do advocate tolerance here. But how on earth do you manage to fit that within a spammy forum mould? We tolerate people's differences, their personal opinions, background etc... But that doesn't mean we tolerate spam. Our belief in tolerance does not extend to post quality.[/color]

[Mnemolth]

Posts, as far as I'm aware, do not count in the Newbie Lounge. That should answer the first question.

As for the second question, that really is about perspective. You can say something silly, but insightful. You can be silly but witty. However, you can also be silly, and [i]just[/i] silly. Silly and fun and nothing else and nothing more. That is what I'm talking about.

A place of refuge. A place that is just a little bit more lenient so you can go a little crazy. Boundaries? Of course there will be boundaries. But the Newbie Lounge is not like all the other forums, and the application of the 'rules' to it, need not be the same as to all the other forums.

Poor quality posts can be a nuisance. And they can become more than an annoyance when they impact on good posts. But if they are contained within the Nebwie Lounge, if the Newbie Lounge is monitored so that things don't get [i]too[/i] out of hand, then it is a good place for members to be both friendly and silly at the same time.

People on these Boards have a tendency to think that being intelligent and articulate is the be-all-and-end-all. To me it isn't. There is a place for unbridled friendliness, there is a place for insanity, and there is a place for nonsense.

[Sandy]

Wise words, Mnemo. (Whatever James will say ;) )

James, you do understand that we have people from such big age-differences, that not everything a twelve-years old writes can possibly be "mature" or "sophisticatedly witty"?

C'mon, don't you remember what it was like being a kid? Not worrying about things too much, letting loose from time to time? Why can't it happen online also? On this very board?

If there is just [i]one[/i] place, just [i]one lowsy place[/i] to post free to, to introduce oneself in as many words as one wants, or to discuss about "your favorite things", then would it be such a nuisance that anybody couldn't bare it?

To my belief, the majority of the spammers are under 15, and if the rules to the behaving on the REST of the sections is made VERY clear, then why don't we dedicate a "playground" to them?

Okay, this is JUST a suggestion, and this doesn't have to go as far as I wrote above, but CONSIDER it, please! I know I'M not going to post in a section/thread as THAT, but there are so many frustrated younglings out there (and here), who NEED to let out steams from time to time.

I have spoken.

[Circ]

Okay, I was one of the offenders too.

I'll try to have a good overall look (just finished to read the thread. Trying to absorb all of it)

I think the newbie forum is a good thging that shouldn't get beaten down. Okay, there [i]is[/i] quite a lot of senseless welcome posts (I'd personnally say people just don't like typing boring welcome posts, but hey, that's just me) but it still serves a couple purposes (I think).

It get people warned about the slight insanity rampaging the board (I'm new too, and maybe I'm just out of it here. Or maybe that wasn't part of the original boards?). Besides, the spam part is a bit weird when both N.F.P. members (I think) specifically say in their standard introduction posts "don't spam".

Also, it get people to talk a bit and get introduced (okay, sometimes warned) to other peoples that are already members.

Finally, I consider that the newbie forum is generally NOT the first place the newbies are looking at before posting. This makes the "it makes the spam look okay" arguments rather untrue.

Finally, if the forum is going to get booted off, I'd personnally suggest that a "website devellopment" and all subjects related forum be reinstituted.

[i]Just seen Sage's post, and I would add I know quite a lot of boards where a "Spam-dedicated" forum exists for all things spammy, but I'm pretty sure this wouldn't go far here...[/i]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i]
[B]I have spoken. [/B][/QUOTE]

And the words may be taken more seriously if you didn't add that at the end.. almost inferring that you're some kind of divine being..

OK.. I'm one of the people who post in the Newbie Forum, with many others.. and I'll start off by admitting that yeah.. even if it was meant to have slightly less strict rules, we go way overboard. We should really stop demanding that James changes his views to suit us, and at the very least say "we're willing to change to suit your rules" and find some kind of half-way point because ultimately, if it weren't for James' work on these boards, they wouldn't be what they are, and we should respect that.

I don't think we should be justifying some of the posting that goes on in there, simply because it doesn't count towards that number under your name, which we shouldn't really care about anyway.. If we truly don't care about post counts, we'd post decent stuff regardless of where it was posted and whether the posts actually count..

So yeah.. this argument's not going to go Isay that to anyone who regularly goes to the Newbie Lounge) and start off by apologising for that, [i]then[/i] argue your side..

So yeah, my point is.. we do go way overboard, even for a slightly more relaxed forum, and the problem is that we do it all the time.. At least lets admit that rather than trying to be self-righteous and justified about it..

[Syk3]

So what you're basically saying is that we should allow spam in a forum that introduces newbies, right? Heh, if we did that do you not think that it would be inevitable for some of those newbies to think it was okay to do in other places? Even if most newbies don't go to the intro forum, as you say (there are usually around 10-15 threads that have been replied to in the last day), then why even keep it? Wouldn't it be more convieniant if we had a forum dedicated to introducing a newbie to the way that they should be posting? Would this not help to prevent spammers who would have otherwise known that they should use higher post quality?

Well?

[Charles]

Okay, I expected arguments against this.

[B][Quote]A place of refuge. A place that is just a little bit more lenient so you can go a little crazy. Boundaries? Of course there will be boundaries. But the Newbie Lounge is not like all the other forums, and the application of the 'rules' to it, need not be the same as to all the other forums.[/b][/Quote]

Refuge from what? OtakuBoards is recreational in nature, that's what it's here for. Look at the forums. Otaku Lounge has topics about plushies, real names, virtual pets, visual impression, etc. Look at the description of the forum. [B]"Take a seat, a warm cup of coffee and discuss off-topic stuff right here. Remember to keep to the rules."[/B] That sure sounds relaxed to me, [I]and[/I] the second sentence manages to sum up nearly everyone's reoccurring response in Newbie Lounge.

I feel that the other forums are more than lenient. Unless someone outright breaks the rules, there's little trouble to be had. It's obvious that there's plenty of room to "let your hair down." We have entire sections dedicated to anime, poetry, role-playing, media and gaming for crying out loud.

[B][Quote]Poor quality posts can be a nuisance. And they can become more than an annoyance when they impact on good posts. But if they are contained within the Newbie Lounge, if the Newbie Lounge is monitored so that things don't get too out of hand, then it is a good place for members to be both friendly and silly at the same time.[/B][/Quote]

Do you realize what you're saying? Restricting them to Newbie Lounge insinuates that it's [I]acceptable[/I], and encouraged for newbies to spam. Even when things don't get out of hand, there's little to be said. As I pointed out, a good many introductions are useless, and the responses aren't much better. Most of them merely say "Read the rules," followed by some nonsense.

How is it going to look when a newbie sees someone with over five hundred posts, posting with horrible quality, and when the newbie follows suit, they're warned.

[B][Quote]If there is just one place, just one lowsy place to post free to, to introduce oneself in as many words as one wants, or to discuss about "your favorite things", then would it be such a nuisance that anybody couldn't bare it?[/Quote][/B]

Once again, this doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of things. Favorite topics are allowed, if done with proper effort. Everyone is free to be themselves elsewhere too. I actually think that we learn more about people through their posts elsewhere and through which forums they frequent.

[B][Quote]To my belief, the majority of the spammers are under 15, and if the rules to the behaving on the REST of the sections is made VERY clear, then why don't we dedicate a "playground" to them?[/B][/Quote]

So, you're actually saying that this forum [I]is[/I] a spam board. Like I said, the rest of the boards can be fun too. How hard is it to simply read the rules? If you want a spam board, just download an iKonboard or something.

In the end, everyone should remember that all the forums aren't meant to be strictly professional and dry.

Edit: But, the Newbie Lounge also isn't a place meant to house spamming. Anyhow, if the introductions forum was popular and effective, people wouldn't have to make topics asking real names, locations, etc. On top of that, newbies could easily introduce themselves in their signatures or biographies, interests, etc. I mean, that's what those profile features are there for.