Down with Newbie Lounge--The Petition.

[Phantom]

What about the chat room idear? *smiles patiently*

[James]

[color=royalblue]*points to theOtaku.com's chatroom* ;)[/color]

[Guest SunRiZe]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][SIZE=1]Trust me. You were still a newbie.[/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe i worded my post worng there, what i was trying to say is that we don't have to be first posters to post a picture. I mean, I am still a newbie now! Perhaps if i stuck with my old name, I would be a Junior member now ;)

[Phantom]

Perhaps, and as Shy stated(i think it was him), newbie is in all technicalities merely a state of mind. By post 3, you should know most of the common sense rules inside and out.

Anyway, Maybe the MyOtaku will have a link directly to the chatroom? Would that not be an okay idea? Obviously a couple people have not took the time to use it as their place to 'spam' so to say. Maybe an expansion of the useage of the chatroom could be something to think of.

[Shy]

[size=1]I really don't like the Otaku's chatroom, and I can almost quote James on saying that he also disliked it. This would be a chatroom exclusive to OB members, so it would be mroe organized and thoughtful -- but still a lot of fun.

-Shy[/size]

[MathGuy2]

I wonder about the whole concept of a Newbie Lounge in the first place. After thinking about it for a while, I realized that only one of two possibilities could result from an introduction thread: "Hi, I'm new, I like Pokemon and DBZ" or a full, well-done introduction thread that details who they are. I would be accepting of the second type of thread, but it seems (to me) that most are the first. There is not much personal you can say in reply to the first.

Therefore, I think we should have a chat room - maybe theOtaku's IRC chat on another #channel, but with members->members, mods->chanops, and participants limited, for members to talk very informally and introduce themselves. Also, myOtakuboards sounds cool - maybe it can be integrated with the game forum (and maybe the chat with that also).

But what should be implemented now? In my opinion, I'd say you should activate the option to moderate all posts, and get one/a few mods in there. Also put a sticky saying "If you post an introduction, make it at least x size, and if you are replying to it, make your reply meaningful and coherent." That would clean up the NL. If it seems to succeed with the new rules, I'd say keep it.

A test lounge becoming a spamfest? Not if there were restrictions to make posts max-reply at 10 and stay alive for only a week. Wait, I got a better idea - people can PM themselves.

[Semjaza]

There is zero reason for a test thread. Anytime you update your sig or avatar it affects all your posts. It's very existance would be pointless for that reason alone.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i]
[B]There is zero reason for a test thread. Anytime you update your sig or avatar it affects all your posts. It's very existance would be pointless for that reason alone. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, also consider the fact, that you may preview posts to experiment with tags as well. So, that excuse doesn't sit well with me either. I don't see why people keep bringing up a useless Test forum when we're trying to get rid of another useless forum.

How would it be solving anything? :confused:

Hehe, anyway, I don't feel that MathGuy2 was very serious. He did, in fact, say that people can PM themselves, although that's not necessary either.

[Phantom]

I only thought that a test forum can be usefull in some ways and obviously as you have all proven, there are many alternatives that would work to the same effect.

There is only one objection to the way you guys handled the whole consideration. No offense but the way you blatently pass off our suggestions so arrogantly is not accomplishing anything. Really arrogance is best if at all costs avoided. Instead of instantly jumping down our throats for trying to offer alternatives that may/may not be good, you could try to say no without the added kick. We arent offering suggestions to be told off that way. Cut some slack, this is serious but we are all on the same side, I would liek to think.

All summed up, you guys are right though, the test forum would do nothing for the productivness of our boards.

[Sere Tuscumbia]

The MyOtaku idea sounds good, but, if you change it, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least leave a small forum for people to introduce themselves. Because even if we had a post count in the NL, I don't care about THAT. All I want is to introduce. It makes me feel like I'm more a part of the OB Community.

And ok, I admit it, I "play Mod". But, you mentioned earlier that the NL is just a place for spammer to be bred, and so my constant "playing mod" really isn't going against anything. I'm trying to keep spammers AWAY. And mainly I get onto people for stuff that is in the rules. No one word posts (it was in the rules at some point, if not now), no banners larger than the size they're supposed to be, stuff that everyone should know, whether you're a newbie or not. Ok, I admit, I didn't read the rules first thing when I joined, and I didn't post in the Intro forum (wait. Did we have one?) when I first joined, but I followed the rules. Ok, some things were spammy, but I learned quickly. And, since everyone doesn't learn like I do, I'm trying to teach them early. Try to teach them too old, and it's too late. Just trying to help out a little.

And James, I didn't mean that you would ban me because of my opinion, I meant that if I posted any more, then my language would get just a bit more than excusable, and I remember that is more than enough reason to ban someone.

My suggestion: ok, get rid of the Newbie Lounge, but if you're going to put MyOtaku in place of that, then please, PLEASE at least leave some little part where newbies can introduce themselves, and the members (not talking about post counts here) can say hi back. And honestly, I didn't know that I was supposed to ask questions. And that the newbies were supposed to post about themselves. Because, if you're like me, I'm not going to introduce myself with:

Hi, my name is Sere, but my real name is Annie, and I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma! I have three pets, along with a mother, father, and 19 year old sister. etc, etc, etc.

It's just not my thing. And what questions are there to ask? How's school goin' really isn't going to work, and there really aren't many questions you can ask without sounding like you're interested in stalking them!

And yes, I'll admit it, I do believe that I scare more Newbies off than I make feel welcome, but hey! Most people don't even post anyway after that original post. And don't judge a book by its cover. I would try to make the Newbie Lounge more like the rest of OB, but that would be hard. You really can't RPG, or post posts about plushies, or submit artwork on the Newbie Forum. I'm not saying that it has different rules (for it still has rules) but I'm saying that it'd be hard to get it like the rest of Otakuboards. Would use an analogy, but hey! Ya'll would just shoot me down.

I can't remember where I started on this, so I'll just close this now, and hope that you all can make sense of this semi-sane ramble.

Ja ne
-Sere

[James]

[color=royalblue]Mystic's Knight, where have we arrogantly dismissed your posts? I think you're totally wrong there. If anything, I've seen more arrogance from some members rather than staff.

But anyway, that's not the point of the discussion. The point is how we deal with Newbie Lounge.

If we do have a section within My Otaku that would allow for introductions...how would they be any less spammy? As was pointed out before, most people just post "Hi, I'm new!" and then we get the usual "welcome!" and then it turns into "*sprays you with ketchup and steals your plushie*".

My point is, I don't think anything we do will change this. If we Moderate the forum, staff will only be accused of not letting people have their fun...it won't change.

I really don't think people need to post a thread to introduce themselves. I don't see why people can't introduce themselves within their first actual post on the boards. If My Otaku exists, newbies can read up on that info well before they post anyway -- and hopefully, they'll feel more comfortable to just jump right in and start posting.

EDIT: Sere...we are NOT going to "shoot you down" if you make an analogy! Please STOP punctuating your posts with rubbish like that. You know it's not true. [/color]

[Lady Asphyxia]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mystic's Knight [/i]
[B]HEHE WHOOPS!! :)

Asking or suggesting, (at least as to what I am familiar with in the past) does not usually help for a seat as a Moderator.

Also, I dont beleive its ALL about your member status, though yes, I bet it is a rather influencial(sp?) part of when James appoints Moderators. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=darkred]MK, I think you took my words out of context. What I was trying to get across was that there are quite a few people who would be happy to Moderate that place, if thats what James ended up doing. I wasn't 'suggesting', or 'asking'.

And I understood that it wasn't ALL about your member status when appointing Mods, but I meant that it'd probably be better to have a member with a little more expirience...

Cleared up? [/color]

[Sephiroth]

James, just get rid of the newbie lounge and enforce a rule that newbies need not post intro threads and just simply post as normal

I looked through the newbie lounge today and only found one dacent intro thread, which belonged to Neon Phoenix, her intro was good, the other members replies simply wasn't

It's all basically the same thing....

"Hi, welcome to OB, enjoy yourself, don't spam, and PM me for any help"

I also see absolutely no point to the test forum, the reasons for it were already stated by other members

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mystic's Knight [/i]
[B]I only thought that a test forum can be usefull in some ways and obviously as you have all proven, there are many alternatives that would work to the same effect.

There is only one objection to the way you guys handled the whole consideration. No offense but the way you blatently pass off our suggestions so arrogantly is not accomplishing anything. Really arrogance is best if at all costs avoided. Instead of instantly jumping down our throats for trying to offer alternatives that may/may not be good, you could try to say no without the added kick. We arent offering suggestions to be told off that way. Cut some slack, this is serious but we are all on the same side, I would liek to think.

All summed up, you guys are right though, the test forum would do nothing for the productivness of our boards. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think that they meant it that way, MK.. it's just that the old test forum was pretty annoying.. I mean you'd have a thread where the topic was "test".. and all that it said in the post was "test".. and loads of topics like that..

So they're not really dismissing your idea because of you personally, but more that we've seen a test forum here before, and don't really want to again ;)

I think that just wasn't explained very well before ;)


edit: by the way, I realise that you probably weren't talking just about your test forum suggestion, but there have probably been a few misunderstandings in other areas too.. that was just one example..

[Roxie Faye]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]My point is, I don't think anything we do will change this. If we Moderate the forum, staff will only be accused of not letting people have their fun...it won't change.[/color][/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff]Well, I'm sure it would be like that in the beginning, but in time, the members would change and stop complaining. I remember when Shyguy became themod for Digimon. Many people sort of got upset because he was ACTUALLY enforcing the rules, but in time things died down, and most is well over there. The only problem would be finding someone crazy enough to take that blaming and to Mod NL. ;)[/color]

[QUOTE][b][color=royalblue]I really don't think people need to post a thread to introduce themselves. I don't see why people can't introduce themselves within their first actual post on the boards. If My Otaku exists, newbies can read up on that info well before they post anyway -- and hopefully, they'll feel more comfortable to just jump right in and start posting.[/color][/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff]The problem is, some of the time(I'm not saying all of it, but sometimes), when people meantion just once, at the very bottom of theit post, that they're new, half he topic turns into an intro thread.

P.S.: If you couldnt tell, I'm against removing the Newbie Lounge. ;)[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MistressRoxie [/i]
[B][color=#9933ff]The problem is, some of the time(I'm not saying all of it, but sometimes), when people meantion just once, at the very bottom of theit post, that they're new, half he topic turns into an intro thread.

P.S.: If you couldnt tell, I'm against removing the Newbie Lounge. ;)[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Or, people may just ignore the fact that the Newbie said that they are new, and then they'd just make another post saying "hey, New guy here.. anybody listening?"

[James]

[color=royalblue]Right now I'm definitely thinking that Sephiroth's simple, straight-forward approach is probably best.

Just as people would settle down with a mod entering Digimon, they would also settle down with no Newbie Lounge.

Let's face it; the place is just full of spam. How on Earth can it be Moderated effectively? If it were Moderated properly, about 95% of the threads wouldn't even exist.

And I believe that the My Otaku section would offer so much more to the community. It would foreseeably boost post quality in [i]every[/i] forum.

Remember, I'm also not objecting to adding new forums either; maybe something in Otaku Public. I'm asking what people would like in place of Newbie Lounge (not an intro/welcoming forum, but something else). If we can come up with some alternative ideas that don't mess with everything else we've established on the forums (which NL currently does), I think it'll be a win-win situation.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=royalblue]I'm asking what people would like in place of Newbie Lounge (not an intro/welcoming forum, but something else).[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

....

Do I dare say it...?

....

*tries to resist*...

I can't resist...

I WANT A FORUM ABOUT JESUS!!!!!



*sees a lot of funny looks*

um.. yeah.. lol..lmao.. all the other abbreviations, just do [b]NOT[/b] take that suggestion seriously, ok?

(much as I'd love to see the day.. I know what the chances are ;))

[James]

[color=royalblue]Yeah, I don't think I have to tell you that the word "Otaku" isn't featured anywhere in the Bible. ;)

Anyway, I thought Elite brought up a good point before. Newbie Lounge is often the place where people first encounter our community. But what do they see? Most of the time, they see pointless mini-RPG-like posts, punctuated by totally inane ramblings.

Put simply, people will think that this is all okay. They'll assume, right off the bat, that this is how the forum works.

But if we had a proper resource with the right info, as the first viewable element...that might turn things around to some extent.[/color]

[Mitch]

[color=red] I'm still neutral in my opinion. I just can't find a point that is fair for all of us...there's some members that want the lounge gone....and others who want it.

James, if you are going to change the forum, do it in a fair way which causes in some how or some way both sides of this argument to win.

I'm for the My Otaku idea if that's what you want.

Again, as I said, I'm in the middle, and whatever you do James, I'm for it. Just do something that equifies both sides of this argument, instead of leaning towards one or the other.[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

I err.... like the picture forum... but thats pretty much about it.

DOWN WITH RPG FORUM! WOOOOOOO.... ohh wait.... heh... heh.... heh....

[Semjaza]

I don't know how James could ever do a fair compromise with this. No matter what he chooses, it would probably benefit one side more than the other in some aspect.

Some people want the thing totally gone. Some want it to stay. Some don't mind if it's gone, as long as there is something [i]just[/i] like it to take its place (I still don't quite get this one, it seems exactly the same as it is now).

My Otaku, if I understand it correctly, is the only remote compromise there is. I'm sure it'll still piss someone off though.

[Mnemolth]

Introduction posts are, by their nature, generally repetitive. You may get the odd gem here or there, but generally speaking people are not inclined to post their life history in their first post on a new board. And members are generally not inclined to relate their life history to complete strangers. So what you end up with is the usual, "Hi, I'm so-and-so, and I like such-and-such" followed by "Welcome! Read the rules and enjoy your stay."...and so on...

As a result, to liven things a little bit, regulars to forums like Newbie Lounge have a tendency to make a few "quirky' posts. Run with an inside joke and generally behave a little out of the ordinary. And I don't see anything wrong with that. As I said before, "There is a place for unbridled friendliness, there is a place for insanity, and there is a place for nonsense". And I haven't seen one good reason posted by anyone so far that challenges that principle for me. But it is an ideological and philosophical stand. I believe very strongly in tolerance.

Of course, you have to have rules. For in chaos there is no freedom, no matter what anarchists would have you believe. If there were no rules on this Board, it would be so full of ads and the most extreme forms of spam that it would be flooded until either it breaks down or people with worthwhile things to say stop posting. And when that happens what do you think happens to your freedom to read and post? They too are gone.

So rules are necessary. And their enforcement is necessary. But it should always be remembered that rules exist for a purpose. They help preserve a place for us to gather and have fun. They serve us. They do not exist for their own sake. And if one remembers this, one would understand that it is not the [i]letter[/i] of the rule that is important, it is the [i]spirit[/i] of the rule.

So when you look at the Newbie Lounge, and all you see is spam, I see something else. I see friendliness. I see enthusiasm. I see people trying to help their community and have a little fun while doing it. I see charm., the charm that comes from the silly and the ridiculous. I see people interacting with one another, and having a grand old time. And I see that as being perfectly in sync with the rules.

To be honest, its really not my cup of tea. That's why if you bother to check, I don't post there much. I do go there and read quite often though. It can be quite entertaining.

Do the regulars sometimes go overboard? Yes, indeed. And they have had the grace to readily admit as much on this thread. But that's no reason to take down the Newbie Lounge. As I said before, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

There is a lot about this thread and the opinions expressed inside it that I don't like.

If you look at those against the Newbie Lounge, you'll find that many are moderators, many are old timers and 'respected' or 'articulate' members. And if you look at those supporting the Lounge, you are likely to see many of them are relatively new and young and 'ordinary' members. It almost smacks as a mini-power struggle.

Beyond that, it strikes me as particularly unfair that people who have spent energy and time welcoming others to the Board, are treated so disrespectfully. Its as if they don't count. It disappoints me that their efforts and enthusiasm are tossed aside as so much garbage.

I don't like the divide. I don't like what seems to be bullying. And no James, I'm not referring to you, well, at least not you alone, there are at least half a dozen others along for the ride.

And I don't like the intolerance exhibited by people hiding behind the rules, hiding behind the label 'spam', hiding behind a protocol to get rid of something they cannot understand or do not appreciate.

I don't like the enforced conformity in an attitude that says "Yes, you are free to be as silly as you want, just as long as you do it in a way we like it to be done". Speaking of which, someone really ought to read my The Clowns and the Businessman analogy (see previous post. I'm assuming that the many have not seen it or have not given it thought since no one so far has gotten anywhere close to understanding what I was getting at. I would explain it but I don't want to offend people. PM me if you really want to know.

I would suggest that the Newbie Lounge should be kept. A mod or two installed. An archive placed where the Picture forum is and the Picture forum moved to the Otaku Lounge. If the archive is not in the Newbie Lounge then maybe it should be on the front page in Otaku Public. As the name suggest, an archive should be read-only.

At the end of the day, I guess I'm fighting for the Newbie Lounge because of the principles involved than because of the Lounge itself. I find it sad that people fail to understand that being 'articulate' does not make you right, and being 'intelligent' is not everything. And for those looking back at me with daggers of irony in their eyes, they [i]should[/i] be looking more closely at me, because they obviously have not looked at me close enough in order to have formulated the opinions of me that they have.

However, I am just a newbie here, and I am just passing by. This is not my Board, and I don't have as much invested in it as some of you do. So whatever James decides, my reaction will probably be 'ok' in a meek little voice to indicated both my acceptance and my reluctance to accept. :D

[Circ]

That was indeed an excellent rant, Mnemolth.

*turn at everybody else*

And I also think he [i]did[/i] got some points.

[Mitch]

[color=red] I'm all with you, Mnemolth...but still, both sides punch a good argument, so I can't side. But I could be called one of those insane people which spam so much on the Newbie Lounge....if that's what you want to characterize being witty and different and sarcastic (in a good way, mind you) is...

I don't want to see the forum go yet still I see a river of movement of linerity of why it should...it's just to hard of a decision to choose for me.

But your points, Mnemolth, were very true to my ears, and they keep echoing, even after I have read it.

But still, I can't come to a standing point.[/color]