burning the american flag

[vegeta rocker]

Remember that thread about banning the swastika? Well i brought that topic up with my Grandfather(veteran) and he said that the second that was done the cross was next. Once you ban a freedom it can escalate, we talked about symbols and he brought up that if you burn a flag you have to cut the stars out first. Because then the flag is just a piece of cloth. This kind of puzzled me so i wanted to know what you all thought about that.
Do you think it makes a diffrence?

[Kent]

No, I would say its a flag no matter how you desecrate it.

I also wanna say that, as much as I may oppose flag burning, it is allowed.

I really dislike all who do it, but that is also allowed.

Btw, I find the subject odd because there is one time where its ok to burn a flag... your not supposed to let the flag touch the ground, if it does then your supposed to burn it.

That may be more a thing of symbolism than an actual practice, but Im pretty sure thats a widly known concept.

Bottom line though, is that most who burn flags dont do it out of respect, they do it out of hate and protest.

I dislike them, as you may be able to tell by my sig, I actually hate most of those people.

Oh well, we can all have our opinions right?

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]I also wanna say that, as much as I may oppose flag burning, it is allowed.

I really dislike all who do it, but that is also allowed.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You, sir, are a very smart person.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who knows that it's not illegal to burn the flag. I had this debate about... a year ago or so where I had all these punk kids telling me it was illegal to burn the American flag. I had to explain to them, however morally wrong it may be to burn your own countries flag or how wrong they make think it is, it's still legal. Oh well, I'm glad at least some people know our constitution.

Regarding the topic at hand. If you wanna burn the flag, I don't really care. If I got all upset about it and tried to stop it, I wouldn't be a very good American. As an American I have the obligation to respect the rights of fellow Americans no matter how wrong I think what they are doing is. Remember, they have just as much rights as you do.

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]If I got all upset about it and tried to stop it, I wouldn't be a very good American. As an American I have the obligation to respect the rights of fellow Americans no matter how wrong I think what they are doing is. Remember, they have just as much rights as you do. [/B][/QUOTE] [SIZE=1]And isn't that just beautifully ironic.[/SIZE]

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][SIZE=1]And isn't that just beautifully ironic.[/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]

One of the many draw backs to freedom....

[Justin]

Well, I won't lose much sleep over someone burning it; but I think that if they hate America so much, why don't they just leave.

There are so many things I would do different if I ran this world...

-Justin

[Manic Webb]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i]
[B]Well, I won't lose much sleep over someone burning it; but I think that if they hate America so much, why don't they just leave.[/B][/QUOTE]

That's one thing I never understood about flag burning. The US isn't totalitarian (or whatever the word is). If you don't like the country, go. Nobody's holding you back.

And I guess I agree that if you cut out the stars, it's not the US flag anymore. But then you'd have to cut up the US flag to do that, which introduces you to the second edge of the sword.

And Gokents... what's wrong with Hippies? Sure, all a lot of them did was smoke herb and have polygamous rabbit-like sex all day, but some of them had a purpose. A few were pacifists with a cause; it was just overshadowed by their tendancy to ignore most forms of authority. A case of good intentions with bad follow-through.

[Vegitto4]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]No, I would say its a flag no matter how you desecrate it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Being that I'm in ROTC, I was particularly intrigued by this topic.

A flag is not just a flag. it is a symbol for the country, and what it believes in. They should all be destroyed in their own respective ways, because it's symbolic, and tradition.

Desecration. Now thats a different thing. That is defiling something, using it as something not for it's original purpose, that totally defies the values of what it stood for.

[Kent]

Well if you ask me, I dont think the flag was meant to be used by a bunch of hippies as a symbol of an evil society that pushes for war.

It is true that there are times for a flag to be destroyed, but when a bunch of dis-respectful punks burn the flag to protest the very country that allows them such freedoms... I find it hard to stomach.

Although, keep in mind my above post... we all have the same rights, no matter how much I may dis like what some do with them.

[Pepper]

You and those hippies Gotenks..leave 'em alone. My old man was a hippie. Just like Endymion said there was some good in their, quite frankly strange ways. Being me, myself and I there are plenty of things I still dont get. I heard (more so read) in some article or something that when the stars were removed from the Flag it some sort of respectful way of preparing it to be burned (just like they have certain rules for displaying and folding the Flag). I dont really care if you wnat to burn the Flag, i dont really mind. It dosent bother me, but i do mind if your going to stomp around saying how much of a blasted country the U.S is and expect to live in it - happily. But it's all a matter of rights and self-government, thats the way i see it.

[Justin]

That's my post, with a few more words, lol.

The way I see it, if you hate this country so much, then you obviously have no place here.

I personally think burning the flag of the country that provides you with so many freedoms is stupid; but I won't give a second thought to it if you do.

Gokents; 'Hippies' can be quite a loose term. I suggest you try being slightly more specific because, if not for [i]some[/i] of those Hippies, America wouldn't be what it is today...thus, neither would you be what you are today.

-Justin

[Guest Morph]

[size=1] Its allowed, if your flag is ripped/teared. Then its your duty as an American to burn it, even if its againist your will, you still should do it.

[color=red][b]Note: Hippies scare me to death... o_O They are waaaaaay to messed up on drugs and whatnot. Especially the whole pacifism deal. I seriously don't like people that are too into pacifism.[/b][/size][/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

I hope some of you realize that "punk kids" that burn the flag to protest the country is BECAUSE their rights were taken away. The whole deal behind burning the flag to protest war was because of the draft. People felt that they have a free choice NOT to participate in the war and that right was being taken away, so they burned the flag to basically say "This land is no longer free for me."

And you are all being stereotypical of hippies. I don't go around saying you're all internet geeks with glasses and no life because you post on an Anime board, so it's probably better you don't generalize like that. Hippies and people dopped up on drugs wearing tie-die colors are two different things.

I don't think people burn the flag because they hate the country they live in, although I'm sure theres a small percentage that do that. People normally do it to protest something that they think has taken away the value and morals that America stands for, usually done by the government or someone in high power.

[Kent]

Well just to clarify, when I say hippies, I mean those anti-war bums who were spitting on my father and his soldiers after they came back from fighting another mans war. (lydon b. Johnson)

I dont like foolish passafism, and I dont like people who have the ignorance to hate the soldiers and not the war mongers that put the soldiers there.

More over, I know that not all hippies were that exact way, but dont try and act like those people werent the majority.

Its also important to know that I take each person for the individual they are.

That in mind, every hippie I have met was all about brother hood and peace and love. Until it came time to deal drugs, then it was all about turning 1/2 into 5/8 of what ever drug their dealing.

Those people are called hippies for one of 2 reasons in my book...
either they are being a hippie because its whats "hip".
or because they are "hipocrites".

Either way, I have the right to dislike and generalize all hippies if I want, and frankly, I want to.

I hate hippies and I hate those that envy and imitate them.

Its also important to know that Im not gonna take their freedom or their lives. I also think you all should know that at heart Im a very liberal person who would share many veiws with those people.
But unfortnatly, those people are hipocrites and bums.

And pepper, if your dads a hippie, I havent met him, so dont take this stuff personally. But I will ask you to go find out if he was doing the protesting and flag burning? If so, I might have some un-just judgements for him.

Other wise, I suggest everyone does just what they preach all the time, and let me have my opinions with out being told how to think or feel.

Flag burning hippies insulted everything this country stands for.

plus, Justin,

the person I am was slightly changed and formed because of hippies, and I wish that I hadnt had that influence.

Oh yea, trans nerve, those people werent protesting just for what you said, some may have been.

But if your protesting for that reason, then what the hell would they be supporting "the peoples army" for. (thats the vietnamesse for you unfarmiliar with communist talk.)

Look at jane fonda posing with n.v. on their artillary pieces and honestly tell me it was about the draft.

Even more amazing, a republican got the vietnam war to end and a democrate got it to start, so what were the hippies doing affiliating themselves specifically with democrates.

Oh yea, I still respect those peoples rights to do as they wish, so respect mine just the same please.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]Oh yea, trans nerve, those people werent protesting just for what you said, some may have been.

But if your protesting for that reason, then what the hell would they be supporting "the peoples army" for. (thats the vietnamesse for you unfarmiliar with communist talk.)

Look at jane fonda posing with n.v. on their artillary pieces and honestly tell me it was about the draft.

Even more amazing, a republican got the vietnam war to end and a democrate got it to start, so what were the hippies doing affiliating themselves specifically with democrates. [/B][/QUOTE]

I understand some people were rather rational and complete and outright rude when it came to the soldiers who came back from the war. I don't support that kind of behaivor. I am mearly refering to the thousand of people who did their peaceful protests. They burned their draft cards or their flags and they left. They spoke their message and they left it at that.

I don't think party affiliation had anything to do with ending or starting the war in Vietnam. America was too cocky, and still is, when it came to communism back them. I mean, we were doing ridiculous things (Just look at the McCarthy era) to "stop" communism from spreading. Like it was a disease. America finally wised up and said "why are we doing this?" and I don't think it would have mattered one bit whether or not a republican or democrat was in office at the time, the war was coming to an end.

[Mitch]

[color=red] Oh, I didn't know that it wasn't a law that you can burn a flag...

I think that any burning of a flag shows that:

1) You are unpatriotic
2) You do not respect Americans
3) You do not respect freedom


Basically, it just shows ignorance. Especially if you are a citizen of the US. But I can not stop people from doing it, nor will I.[/color]

[Kent]

Well actually, I dont think that we "wised up". I think that ronald reagan put some thought into it and knew that we didnt need force to take out communism, but rather, let them take themselves out.

communism doesnt work.In the end, it defeats itself.

I also wasnt trying to say that the war ended because of the party of president, it ended because of soldiers efforts.

My point was that democrates sent us, nixon got us out, and then in 1975, democrates cut off the support that was going to the south vietnamesse.

Those arent the actions of smart people, except for nixon getting us out.

I hope Im not coming across too political, those are just the facts.
But in this thread, right now, Im not intrested in those facts.

Im thinking about the irrational hippies. Actually, I really dont think that the majority of those hippies were simply peaceful protest, draft card burners. (but that is something niether you or I could prove in either direction, so I will let it rest.)

I just want every one to know how I feel about them, their actions and the hipocracy they represent.

I think Ive already made that clear so in honor of not being personally responsible for this threads closure, I will seise to opine.

thanks for your time

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]communism doesnt work.In the end, it defeats itself.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The communism we see today isn't true communism. There hasn't been a true communism. Karl Marx's communism DOES work, but you have to have the right leader. Having dictators like Stalin, Xu Min (however you spell that) and Castro, will eventually lead no where. I think communism would work best over all in a free world. No one thought capalism would work either till America pulled it off. But true communism isn't what you see in China or Cuba today. True communism is a really good idea in thought and if done right, it would be a really good idea in action. No one seems to have done it that way though.

[Kent]

Well, Im not good a qouting other post.

So Im gonna write the qoute..." I think communism would work best overall in a free world."

That is almost an oxymoron. I say that because you cant have a free world when you have an enourmous central government doing...

* "A heavy progressive or graduated income tax." (forcefully taking your money)
* "Abolition of all right of inheritance..." (you cant keep what your parents leave you when they die...)
* "Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state." (state controled media and the ability of the people to move freely in their own county, "needing a pass")
* Extension of factories and instruments of prodution owned by the state... (no private buisness to run as your own)

Those are just a few ideas QOUTED directly from the Marx communist manifesto.

They support that it is not possible to have "free world" in a communist society.

I also want to point out 2 things, one,

1. There has been one succesful communist group. The monastaries of the worlds religions.

2. Communism has come up plenty before, long debates took place and this thread isnt the place for communist debate.

Plus, almost everyone agreed, commmunism doesnt work, you cant look at it from the ideas of a utopian world that doesnt exist. You have to look at it in our world.

I also just had to mention this one, but you had said no one thought capitalism would work until the u.s. pulled it off. Im guessing your not an ancient history scholar...

Have you ever heard of cuneiform, it was the first written langauge. Created in Mesopatania, for the specific reason of keeping records for their capitalistic system in which people got to keep what they worked for. Go check it out,

Mesopatania was the greatest civilization of the time (mostly cause it was the first to have things like sewers, writing, writen code of law (hamurabis code) and several other first)

Most importantly though, it was a capitalist society, because capitalism is what comes naturally.

Work for yourself, keep what you make, or do with it as you with... give it away or sell it. Free market and Free trade.

And that is just the first major civialization of the world. Capitalism has been used and used succesfully by uncountable numbers of other societies since.

any way, lets get back to the subject...

[Transtic Nerve]

I didn't mean free world as in everyone is free, I meant it as in without boundries. But yeah, just like democracy and capatalism, ofcourse it has drawbacks. A few things really quick. I don't understand how a progressive income tax means forcefully taking your money. Progressive taxing is taking more tax from people who make more money. The rich pay more tax, the poor pay less. It's actually ingenious if you think about it. Why make the poor poorer and the rich richer when we can make them equal. And I do think of everything in a utopian world if it's something that could have happened. I know communism can't work in our world, so I have to think of how it would work in a world where it was just introduced and followed. If I thought of how it would work in our world today, I wouldn't have any argument. Anyway, I just needed to say that. Communism isn't meant to be a free government. It's meant to be a controled government. I really don't think we both need to go any further into this. You know what I'm saying and I know what you are saying and I suppose our different views don't plan to change.

[Valen]

I'm in AFJROTC, which has a little thing against burning the flag. They say its patriotic to burn the flag if it rips or touches the ground, but what I don't get is, WHY would you burn the AMERICAN flag if it falls on AMERICAN soil... now yes, I know some people still do it, but that was back in the WWI and WWII days when not many people really valued anything if it fell onto the ground. Plus it was probably some Pyro who decided to burn the flag if it touched the ground... if that was the case, we wouldn't have a flag moe than a week old... because in the little factories they actually mass produce them in, they let them drop to the ground before picking them up and putting them into boxes to send out... anyway, don't mind me... I'm just against the whole burn the flag deal... oh well...

- Valen
[edit]That just made no sense...[/edit]

[Kent]

Well, trans nerve, atleast we agree on one thing.

Our opinions arent gonna change.

I respect your opinion and you respect mine, and so, I say thank you.

I also knew what the taxes were, I was just saying that they do have to forcefully collect them. Thats not exactly freedom, even in america.

I also want to mention I think we are all equal and there for I think a flat tax is a good idea. (with the exception of the poor paying their current fed. income tax. which is literally nothing. thats why they dont get tax cuts, you cant cut taxes when you arent taxed to begin with)

any way,

For real, I want to address the flag...

When it falls its symbolic. A good example was glory the movie, at the end, that was a great part.

But when the flag falls it shows america has fallen, and it should always be picked up.

As for the damaged flag, I only think its ok to burn it if another is on hand to replace it.

The man who wrote the national anthem was looking at a war torn, tattered, beaten up flag, not a perfect brand new one.

I also think I should mention the one thing that makes the difference.

Whats in the heart of those who burn it, if its the hate and treason that hippies had, its wrong to burn the flag, no matter what you do to the stars.

But if you have honor and the principals of the country in your heart, it changes the situation.

The flag should never be burned if it doesnt have to be, and I believe that if you have honor and good hearted, patriotism in your blood, you woulnt burn the flag unless it must be burnt.

[Vegitto4]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][color=red] Oh, I didn't know that it wasn't a law that you can burn a flag...

I think that any burning of a flag shows that:

1) You are unpatriotic
2) You do not respect Americans
3) You do not respect freedom


Basically, it just shows ignorance. Especially if you are a citizen of the US. But I can not stop people from doing it, nor will I.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]


Idiot. If the flag touches the ground, it is considered disgraced, or defiled. Therefore, being that our country is to great to have dirt on it's flag, we burn it, and replace it with a shining one.


But if your talking about just randomly burning an AM. Flag for no apparent reason, then yeah. They deserve to die.

[Syk3]

I thought that only the military (I think) and the Boy Scouts were [i]allowed[/i] to burn the flag, but whatever.

I would really dispise anyone who would burn the American Flag. If you're an American, that's hardly a way to show respect for your county, and even if you arn't, then...erm...you're just jealous!!! jk But still, I have to say that burning the flag is morally wrong, if anything. Oh, and if it touches the ground, I'm not sure what to believe. On one hand, you're not supposed to let it touch the ground anyway, but on another, touching the ground doesn't ruin it, persay. Well, I dunno...

As for the topic at hand, If you cut out the stars, then you've already ruined the flag, so yes, it is just a peace of cloth then, in my opinion.

[Domon]

I personally think that burning the american flag is awfull, there is a man in the city where i go to school and he calls anyone he doesn't like a *** and he takes the american flag and rubs it in the dirt. Oh and the worst thing is that he has turned it into a religon. I can't stand that.