burning the american flag

[PiroMunkie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][color=red]I think that any burning of a flag shows that:

1) You are unpatriotic
2) You do not respect Americans
3) You do not respect freedom[/color][/B][/QUOTE][color=indigo]You are pretty much calling a high percentage of Americans unpatriotic, and disrespectful towards Americans and freedom. Many companies that fly United States' flags on their buildings do not just throw them away when they become faded, torn, and tattered from being beaten in the wind. No, they usually give them to a local Boy Scout troop and ask them to retire it. The way to retire a flag is to burn it. The troop holds a little ceremony, which ends up with the flag being placed over a fire, and everyone stands around in silence until the flag is no more. Then, the ashes are usually spread over the land of which they were retired on, but this part is optional.

The Boy Scout troop that I am in went camping this weekend and we were given a flag to retire. It had flown on the side of a building since September 11. The burning of a flag is not wrong as long is it is done properly or with a legit reason.[/color]

[vegeta rocker]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo]
The Boy Scout troop that I am in went camping this weekend and we were given a flag to retire. It had flown on the side of a building since September 11. The burning of a flag is not wrong as long is it is done properly or with a legit reason.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly, when you retire it you cut off the stars. I just found it interesting that the idea the stars hold behind them carries so much weight.

I agree with Transtic Nerve in that there is no true communism. It would not defeat itself if it was done right.
If it had panned out like Karl Marx had planned it would work. His work The Communist Manifesto was written along with Economist Frederich Engels so he does have a knowledge of economics. The eventual end of Communism is Capitalism which is where the people make the decisions. If you know the steps:
1. The Proleteriat (working class) will revolt against the bourgeoisie (upper class).
2. A Communist system will be built where Govt. controls all economic and political matters.
3. The classless socialist society will be built where each will work according to his abilities and receive according to his needs.
That doesn't sound like such a bad idea to me. If you think about it a lot of poor countries would benefit from this system. Me myself, am a strong beleiver in anarchist philosophy and want more freedom than i am given.

One of Marx's quotes that I think makes sense is
Proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Working men of all countries unite.

(I don't beleive in the so called communism we have had in the past so don't get the wrong idea.)

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][color=red]I think that any burning of a flag shows that:

1) You are unpatriotic
2) You do not respect Americans
3) You do not respect freedom


Basically, it just shows ignorance. Especially if you are a citizen of the US. But I can not stop people from doing it, nor will I.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with your last two points there, but I don't particularly like patriotism as it is- patriotism often leads to a "my country is better than yours" way of thinking and just starts arguments. Of course, it does depend on the kind of patriotism you mean.

For some people, Patriotism is simply a respect and love for your own country. I only really agree with that if you show the same respect for other countries, though having a sort of pride for your own. But generally, this isn't the kind of patriotism people refer to.

For a lot of people, "Patriotism" is the attitude I mentioned above, the "my country is better than yours". I don't mean to be offensive to anyone, but I find this attitude particularly prominent in America- often people will say "That is Un-American", as a way of saying that something is bad, or goes against someone's rights.. whereas in Britain, we don't say "That's just Un-British", and I doubt they similar things anywhere else either. It just seems that you think you are way above everyone else, whereas actually you are not. That even shines through in this thread "Burning the American Flag". What about the British flag, the French flag, the German flag, or the Australian flag?.. Why not call the topic "flag burning" instead.
Anyway.. that doesn't mean you're the only ones like that. Practically all nations show that kind of patriotism in some form.. The only example I can think of which I know is my own country- we refuse to join Europe fully, because we're too proud of what we are at the moment. Part of it is fear of change, I think, but it's mostly pride. The flag burning thing is just a big issue with you guys I suppose- If someone burned a british flag we probably wouldn't know what to make of it (which is why people rarely do it, I think)..


By the way, I do oppose to flag burning, but that's more because of the disrespect and hate that it symbolises.. I pretty much oppose to the second kind of patriotism I've described (Not sure what type Mitch was on about)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vegitto4 [/i]
[B]our country is to great to have dirt on it's flag [/B][/QUOTE]

...

I'm going to be blunt. That is the biggest display of arrogance I've ever seen.. I'm never normally this blunt, but I actually find it almost offensive that "[i]your[/i] country is to great to have dirt on it's flag".. Not because of the dirt part, but because apparently it's just [b]your[/b] country that's too great. And that's exactly what I was talking about..

[Genkai]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]Well just to clarify, when I say hippies, I mean those anti-war bums who were spitting on my father and his soldiers after they came back from fighting another mans war. (lydon b. Johnson)

I dont like foolish passafism, and I dont like people who have the ignorance to hate the soldiers and not the war mongers that put the soldiers there.

More over, I know that not all hippies were that exact way, but dont try and act like those people werent the majority.

Its also important to know that I take each person for the individual they are.

That in mind, every hippie I have met was all about brother hood and peace and love. Until it came time to deal drugs, then it was all about turning 1/2 into 5/8 of what ever drug their dealing.

Those people are called hippies for one of 2 reasons in my book...
either they are being a hippie because its whats "hip".
or because they are "hipocrites".

Either way, I have the right to dislike and generalize all hippies if I want, and frankly, I want to.

I hate hippies and I hate those that envy and imitate them.

Its also important to know that Im not gonna take their freedom or their lives. I also think you all should know that at heart Im a very liberal person who would share many veiws with those people.
But unfortnatly, those people are hipocrites and bums.

And pepper, if your dads a hippie, I havent met him, so dont take this stuff personally. But I will ask you to go find out if he was doing the protesting and flag burning? If so, I might have some un-just judgements for him.

Other wise, I suggest everyone does just what they preach all the time, and let me have my opinions with out being told how to think or feel.

Flag burning hippies insulted everything this country stands for.

plus, Justin,

the person I am was slightly changed and formed because of hippies, and I wish that I hadnt had that influence.

Oh yea, trans nerve, those people werent protesting just for what you said, some may have been.

But if your protesting for that reason, then what the hell would they be supporting "the peoples army" for. (thats the vietnamesse for you unfarmiliar with communist talk.)

Look at jane fonda posing with n.v. on their artillary pieces and honestly tell me it was about the draft.

Even more amazing, a republican got the vietnam war to end and a democrate got it to start, so what were the hippies doing affiliating themselves specifically with democrates.

Oh yea, I still respect those peoples rights to do as they wish, so respect mine just the same please. [/B][/QUOTE]




ooh that burns yo. i'm not a hippie.....i dont claim to be. and yeah, you have the goddam right to generalize them.....but youve said in many other posts generalizing people etc. is not cool... so are you a hippie in the hypocrite sense???O_o..... well, i know that yer not, heh...


anyway, hippies were mostly hippies because they wanted to be cool.... a real hippie woul try to do something about changing thins for their idea of better... most of the oter hippies just sortaa.. lied around and had these political beliefs just "because"......they wouldnt DO anything about it.

but i dun have a problem with hippies. just fake ones..


dude, hippies werent supporting wietnam or america. dude, they(real ones) wanted...PEACE for real. not KILL AMERICA, but AMERICA IS DOING THE WRONG THING. now it's true america couldve been doing the wrong or right thing, its a metter of opinion.



flag burning hippies may have instulted the country that gave them the rights to have free speech etc. hippies who vandalized government property and patriotic etc. etc. were insulting our country. hippies who peacefully prostested were not.


Now, i agree that hippies did wrongs, but dude, read some Lao-Tzu or something.



on flag burning, it's not cool. i'm not exactly the most patriotic of us :p , but its really not cool. if you hate america, [SIZE=3]MOVE.[/SIZE] k?

but really, it IS allowed. meh. it's pretty much in the constitution, not in words, but the idea. yah.


so, in conclusion, killing hippies is not cool...;):whoops:



to mitch, , your points are good. it does sho those things. but you dont HAVE to respect americans. you dont HAVE to be patriotic.... i forget what your other point was, but i remember that i agreed with that one... i mean, what if you were one of the people in vietnam during the war, and americans dropped a bomb on a school in your area, or dropped a bomb on a hospital in your area. most of us hate osama because of the bombing of the WTC, neh? well, we dont respect him and al-qaeda(sp?), so why should they respect AMERICANS????? i'm not saying i support osama or al-qaeda, but you get the point. I'm not patriotic, because i do NOT pledge allegiance to our government. i dont agree with a lot of what goes on there. but i still hjave morals etc. im not gonna go burning a flag, which is a bad thing. and you, by saying that flag burning is a bad thing etc. and saying that it is unpatriotic(which it is) along with the rest implies that being unpatriotic is on the same level(sorta, it's kinda implied, correct me if i'm wrong) as flag burning. k?

okay, i got into this, long post here.....^^"

[Kent]

Well dude, I have read plenty of lao tzu, in fact that is the exact reason I dont talk about the fact that I have read his work.

As for me being a hipocrite, I dont know how to responed.

Actually, I dont think Im goning to respect it with a response.

As for hippies, I have made my opinion clear.

And for the flag, I say, what you had said, and for that, I respect your opinion.

Those flag burners were insulting the country that gave them the right to do so.

I think the legite reasons have been discussed and for that reason, I think this thread is just about over for me.

I will check in here and there to make sure I can respond to insults and what not, but I think that right now Im done with this.

burning the flag is wrong, and right now, I think its only more fitting that its veterans day.

With that in mind, I wanna say thank you to all those who are to be honored today.

"thank you, you are the reasons this country one of the greatest in the world."

[vegeta rocker]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]
I think the legite reasons have been discussed and for that reason, I think this thread is just about over for me.

I will check in here and there to make sure I can respond to insults and what not, but I think that right now Im done with this.

If you just check in to respond to insults you defeat the purpose of the thread, im just asking you don't insult the purpose of this thread.

[Genkai]

heh, the hipoctire thing wasnt exactly meant to be taken seriously, but.....

yah, i'm sure you read a lot of your taoist philosophy or whatevr...... i really like chuang-zi better, but..you get the drift/..

now, what is the exact reason you dont talk about his work? cause you read it? im confused.....

oh well, yeah, insulting our country, etc. etc. i agree.. we agree on flag burining etc.

[Kent]

Because I learned in pursuits of eastren philosophical writtings, that those who speak _____, dont know the _____.

Ya know, for someone so smart about his writtings I wouldnt think my comments would be that confusing.

Im not saying I know, but I dont exactly think Im completly oblivious.

Plus, I believe in a division of philosophical thinking and political thinking.

One is of this world and one is only striving to be of this world.

Oh yea, I felt your sarcasm, dont treat me like a fool.

I woulnt bother giving you my feelings of you as a person, so please respect my request to keep this discussion on topic and not about my philosophy.

But I would love it if you could "enlighten" me with your reasons behind your relations between political demostration and the tao.

in a pm.

[Manic Webb]

Sometimes you gotta wonder if some people write their posts in a true attempt to offend people, or if some people just want to be offended. This is just my insignificant little opinion here, but I think some people might have gotten offended in this thread for the wrong reasons.

Interpret what I just said in any way you want, because I'm just guessing.

Anyway, thanks to this thread, I now understand the difference between burning a US flag out of disrespect and retiring a US flag. I think that if someone wants to protest something, they can do it without going pyro-crazy. There's a lot of sensible, diplomatic ways flag-burners can get their points across... or (like everyone else and myself have already said) they can just move out of the country. It's not like there are any laws preventing US citizens from leaving the country (unless they're in trouble with the law, of course).