Discussion

[Sara]

[SIZE=1]Mm. Well, I haven't really thought my points through on this, so they may not be well-argued, but I think they're valid.

I've noticed some threads closed, lately, that I honestly think didn't [i]need[/i] to be closed. Now, I well know that mods should be able to close threads for whatever reason without having to defend themselves. But just the same, I guess I was wondering if the rules have changed a little, or if it's just the general mood of the boards lately, or perhaps I'm just way off on this.

What really constitutes being 'on topic'? Now, I know that if the thread is about [i]My Little Pony[/i], you probably shouldn't jump in about how much you're planning to get for Christmas. That would just be silly, completely random, off-topic spam. Kay. That's perfectly clear.

But if the thread were about [i]My Little Pony[/i], and you started adding stuff about [i]Rainbow Bright[/i] and [i]MoonDreamers[/i], would that still be considered off-topic? They were all little-girl shows from several years ago, and similar enough, perhaps, that seperate threads for each of them would be quite unnecessary. And if the conversation just turned to them naturally, then there's a case that the thread should stay open.

It's not what the originally poster intended the topic to be about, perhaps, but is a valid discussion just the same, and not too far from the mark.

Discussions evolve. Can you imagine if every conversation you had with your friends had to remain on the original point? Now, I realize that the analogy of 'IRL' doesn't really fit with message boards, but the similarities are there.

The other thing I can think of right now is the closing a thread on the grounds that it will 'become' spam. Not that it [i]is[/i] spam, but that it will [i]lead[/i] to spam..

That case could be made about [i]any[/i] thread, and in some cases, the diagnosis is clear and all-but-inevitable. In other cases, however, even if the original poster was a bit off on how the thread started, later posts can validate the thread. I realize that it doesn't always happen, but it can, and some of the better discussions I've had here have stemmed from vague or confusing first posts.

It is likely that a thread with a vague first post will quickly become pointless, but perhaps it would be okay to leave it open for a few hours and give it the benefit of the doubt.

I realize this may not be possible in some of the busier forums, but I think it's worth a shot. After ten posts, it's generally safe to say that something is ridiculous and not going anywhere. But I've tried to post in a couple new threads that I thought had potential, only to discover that they had been closed as 'pointless' or 'spam.' It's vaguely upsetting.

That is all. Please update me on the policies regarding these subjects. ^_^

-Sara[/SIZE]

[James]

[color=#507AAC]Our policies have not changed.

If you create a thread that is about My Little Pony for example...and then over time you start talking about specific characters or episodes or whatever...that's no problem. Just look at our Star Wars 411 thread. It isn't violating the rules in any way. It's a flowing, continuous discussion.

So I have no problem with that. Perhaps you could provide examples of threads that are closed mid-discussion? That way I can tell you if they are closed inappropriately or WHY they are closed if the closure is appropriate.[/color]

[wrist cutter]

I agree with all of that Sara, and I'd like to add one extra.

I dislike it when a mod closes a thread because "everything has been said, no need to keep it open". Rarely do I find this a reason to close a thread... the ONLY time I can think of where this should be done is in those 'what does otaku mean?' threads, because people here can't read and just keep spreading their idiocy in those threads it seems like.. but many other times I think it's worthwhile to keep a thread open. I mean, why not? There have been threads I wanted to comment in but were closed because a mod thought "everything had been discussed". This is ridiculous... it's not like the thread needs to be closed anyway, unless it's becoming some flame/spam war.

[James]

[color=#507AAC]Two things there.

Firstly, a Moderator has some discretion. The Moderator may choose when to close/leave open a thread based on his or own judgement. Whether or not you think that is appropriate is irrelevant. I recommend reading the vB disclaimer before you register. ~_^

Secondly, even though we have this disclaimer, we [i]do[/i] have our own specific rules. And generally speaking, the rules aim to be fair to members that are having a legitimate discussion whilst also ensuring that things don't get too off topic or repetitive.

Once again, you'll have to provide me with links to examples. [i]Show me[/i] exactly which threads you have the problem with. Then I can more accurately tell you whether this is going by our policy or whether the Moderator has been a little overzealous.[/color]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]Firstly, a Moderator has some discretion. The Moderator may choose when to close/leave open a thread based on his or own judgement. Whether or not you think that is appropriate is irrelevant. I recommend reading the vB disclaimer before you register. ~_^ [/B][/QUOTE]

Um, no, because it's not like I'm in tears over this, I'm just saying you could take a look at the issue.

I can't find any closed topics on the first page of the general discussion forum so it hasn't happened in awhile.

[James]

[color=#507AAC]Of course. I never meant to imply that you [i]were[/i] in tears over it. I was just restating the issue for the benefit of those who read the thread.

But yeah, if there is ever a problem please feel free to PM me or IM me with a link and I'll sort it out/discuss it.[/color]

[Phantom]

I agree with wrist cutter on a basis that the thread has been closed in the lounge. I mean, in there its of a free for all on many issues. There really isnt an ending to what can be said to a topic.

But here, in the suggestions and feeback forum, people are generally asking a question and gettting an answer. Once the answer is provided, sure than everything [i]has[/i] been said.

To clear up what I just said (I confuse myself too y'know -_-), In the lounge, the mods should be a bit less nit picky about which threads to close, and here in this forum...depending on the situation, closing the threads should be no brainers.

James:

You were asking for examples and links. Sorry I cannot provide a link to this one but I do remember that one of the members here started a thread that was asking for guidance with her older brother moving out. I think it was called "What is wrong with me?" (It COULD have been a different one, I'm not sure.) and after the moderator (not sure who) decided that all was said, he closed it and that was the end of it.

I have no beef with it, but you were asking for examples..and thats the only one that I can think of heh..

And Sara... Your right, I think... There seems to be a more picky mood here recently, nothing overwhelmingly catastrophic though...hehe.

[James]

[color=#507AAC]I actually feel that the mods in Otaku Lounge are probably pretty lax.

Whenever someone says "all has been discussed" or whatever, there is usually a good reason for that. In some threads someone will say something like, for example "Your brother is mean and you shouldn't let him do that" or something.

And whilst you may have some great responses in the first ten posts, after that you may have nothing but "yea I agree, your brother sucks" etc etc

All the same thing over and over again. In addition, the thread may become old and such...and then someone will post in it a week later with the SAME message yet again. In those cases, the Moderator will usually say that the thread has run its course. [/color]

[Valen]

[color=#33ooCC]Yeah, but recently I've seen topics closed that had very good discussions to come. No one was even able to post in it, it was closed only minutes after being created. It's almost like the mods are acting as savage beasts, waiting for a certain type of topic to pop up so they can jump and close it.

Now I know they have their reasons, but come on. Almost any poll that was created without the words: "And why?" in them were closed immediately. I know that some members will do a single-word post and say which they prefer, but others know that you should at least tell [i]why[/i] you like something. I could provide you with a link, James, or you can just look at my sig, for that was the whole thread in my "Pointless quote of the week."

*Sigh* All the mods here are cool, though I may disagree with some of them, they have their reasons. But could we at least let someone post to see what actually becomes of it? It could turn into a debate, which, by the way things have been closing, seems to not be allowed. That brings me to my next question, are debates actually allowed?

Uh... I'll shut up now before I tick some people off with what I could say on the matter...

-Valen[/color]

[James]

[color=#507AAC]It depends on the topic. Most of these topics with polls are closed pretty quickly because they are:

1) Repeated from previous topics
2) So poorly worded that the original post becomes spam
3) Redundant; does anyone really see the value in discussing the colour of socks or the number of hairs on your dog?

Remember, we try to emphasize both post quality and some sort of coherent and intelligent discussion. Topics don't have to be totally serious or anything, but I haven't seen any closures recently that contradict our policies at all.[/color]

[Phantom]

Oh yea, hehe I remember one now. It was my very own thread about the total number of posts at ob.

APPARENTLY the mod who closed it decided that public discussion on how we feel about it was utterly useless so he closed after maybe four replies. That is just garbage to me... the discussion hadnt even started yet...what gives him..actually, I know what gives him the right to..heh whoops.

Anyway.. just another example..

If I see any more that I think are a little oddball and nitpicky in the future, I'll pm you kay? :)

[Valen]

[quote][i]Originally posted by James[/i]
[b]3) Redundant; does anyone really see the value in discussing the colour of socks or the number of hairs on your dog?
[/b][/quote]
[color=#33ooCC]
The heck? The number of hairs on your dog? Well for one, it wouldn't be an accurate count. Hairs fall off dogs like, every 4.3 seconds or something. Erm... oops.

But really, Mystic's Knight is right, that topic would have had very good discussion, but then again, it could have turned into a flamefest, or a spamfest, or anything else. The Mod should have at least waiting until 10-15 posts to see exactly where it was going. But that's just me...[/color]

[Phantom]

Actually, that particular thread.. the moderator didnt even mention that that particular thread was turning into spam...he just decided that we would be better off just pondering about it on our own. heh..

It was on page two...

link:
[url]http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18446[/url]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Final Flash[/i]That's really interesting, but I'm sure people can ponder this themselves.[/quote]Aside from his perfect grammar...I fail to see any valid reason to close. But if it meant much to me, I would have already spoken up. But for the purposes of this thread, I just thought it would be ok to give an example..

[Red]

[b][color=00669]If I had seen that thread, I would have closed it too. Why? Because the first few posts might have contained relevant and intelligent discussion, but after about 7 or 8 posts it would have turned into "hey yeah that's a lot of posts, wow" every single post.

Of course I only started as a moderator a short while ago, and sometimes I'm still getting used to things in that sense, but I think I've made the right choices so far.

If anyone has anything against [i]any[/i] thread that I have closed/deleted they can always PM me, which only one member has done so far. I made my reason for closing the thread clear and I think it was a valid reason.

In my opinion closing threads because they are going to [i]lead[/i] to spam is a completely valid reason. If a thread was to get too large some people might think it was acceptable for that kind of spam to take place before a thread was closed, or a huge number of complaints may be made against the moderator after the thread grew to a considerable size. This could also lead to more threads like this one being made.[/b][/color]

[Sara]

[size=1]I didn't mean anything untowards by this, I was just wondering about some stuff. If the closed threads had really bothered me, I'd have bugged someone aout it via PM. I've done it before... Obviously, the threads themsleves aren't a big deal, I was merely wondering if I had failed to keep up on the rules since stepping down. ;)

Anyway, asked for examples. In the first case, I'll cite the 'Fate or Destiny' thread in the Lounge, closed because it was no longer on topic. Granted, theology can be a touchy subject, and always a little sketchy when it comes to point-by-point discussion, but I thought it was being discussed intelligently for the most part.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Elite [/i]
[B][b][color=00669]If I had seen that thread, I would have closed it too. Why? Because the first few posts might have contained relevant and intelligent discussion, but after about 7 or 8 posts it would have turned into "hey yeah that's a lot of posts, wow" every single post.[/b][/color] [/B][/QUOTE] So you're saying the first few intelligent posts wouldn't have been worth keeping the thread open for three hours.

Mm. I fear I've gotten several people on the defensive, which was not my intent at all. I'm going to leave this be. My questions have been answered, until I can remember what the others were.

Thank you.

-Sara[/SIZE]

[Kinetic]

[color=darkblue]
I agree with both sides on this matter.

I do believe that some of the topics closed were closed too quickly, but I also believe that there is almost always some reasoning behind it and although it may seem unfair and hasty, moderators, I believe, have some experience with these things. Sure, they could have let them stay open for a while, but they usually would turn out as predicted.

One thing I see that no one has mentioned, is TN's closing of several (if my memory serves me right) threads in the DBZ forum. Most of those have been just because they turned into spam or were obviously turning into spam. One example: Many threads were newbies asking questions about DBZ where the answer could have been found on Yahoo or many other search engines. Once the answer was given, the thread's purpose was diminished. I have seen many of these, but only a few have gotten past TN and the DBZ moderators, and the ones that did turned into a topic for newbie's to raise their post count by repeating the answer in their own words.

Some of these topics actually brought a great discussion, I have participated in a few myself. But eventually, around the second page, these turn into a spam fest as well.
[/color]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][size=1]
Anyway, asked for examples. In the first case, I'll cite the 'Fate or Destiny' thread in the Lounge, closed because it was no longer on topic. Granted, theology can be a touchy subject, and always a little sketchy when it comes to point-by-point discussion, but I thought it was being discussed intelligently for the most part.

-Sara[/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]

From what I saw, that thread went way off track. I expected the subject of God to be interspersed throughout the topic, but beginning on the second page, the thread strayed completely away from fate and destiny and into the realm of religion.

I mean, first people were debating whether or not God pulls the strings of fate (which isn't necessarily off topic), but then we have discussion concerning the credibility of God and faith, the sacrifice of Jesus, the opposing forces of good and evil, [I]a lot[/I] of people questioning one another's religious beliefs, bible stories, and...it was just all over the place. Plus, it wasn't really being discussed [I]too[/I] intelligently. There was quite a bit of flaming and half-assed assumptions.

It's not like that thread was just closed without warning either. Earlier in the discussion there was a warning about the thread getting off track. O.o;;

I mean, I didn't close the thread of course, since it wasn't in Sony (lol), but it was pretty obvious that that topic wasn't going to get back on track; it was too heated.

Now, anyway, I'm not disagreeing with this entire topic--just that one point. I can only speak for myself when I say that I'm pretty fair. No one has been openly angry at me for some time due to my moderation.

I can say though, that most closed threads I've seen lately have attached reasoning. So, it shouldn't be too difficult to pull direct examples from closed topics and debate the reasoning behind the decisions.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B][size=1]
Anyway, asked for examples. In the first case, I'll cite the 'Fate or Destiny' thread in the Lounge, closed because it was no longer on topic. Granted, theology can be a touchy subject, and always a little sketchy when it comes to point-by-point discussion, but I thought it was being discussed intelligently for the most part.

[/SIZE] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#507AAC]That might be the case, but you are forgetting one important issue. The discussion was [i]off topic[/i]. The thread was not a discussion and/or debate over religion -- it was about whether or not people believe in fate or destiny.

You could argue that both subjects overlap to some extent, but I was completely justified in closing that thread. I had even warned people to remain on topic, which many people ignored. That thread is perhaps one of [i]the[/i] most clear cut cases of a thread bouncing from one topic to another.

There are a few important things to remember here. If you ever disagree with a topic being closed, you can [i]always[/i] PM the Moderator/Super Moderator who closed it. Furthermore, you can bring the issue to me if you are not receiving a satisfactory answer from the Moderator/Super Moderator (even though all Moderators are required to explain their actions if asked).

It surprises me that this subject is even an issue at the moment. Our policies have not changed, nor has our administrative behavior. If [i]anything[/i], we have become more tolerant of topics that we may have deleted several months ago. Is this a case of "give an inch, take a mile"? I don't know.

Some of you who are questioning why your threads were closed (Mystic Knight) are obviously missing the point of why the discussions were invalid. This is why you are [i]not[/i] a Moderator and others are; Moderators [i]are[/i] generally people who are able to interpret the rules and make sound judgement. There are few times where I have disagreed with a Moderator's application of the rules. And where I have, I've made the appropriate changes.

Even though some of you have legitimate questions (Sara, for instance), I often find that those who spam/misbehave more than others are the first to tell the Moderators that they are doing something wrong. Yet, these very people often fail to examine their own behavior and ask the question "Perhaps [i]I'm[/i] doing something wrong?". And I don't think that's very fair on Moderators.

I'm always happy to discuss the policies of the site, but I think sometimes people need to think a little more about what they are arguing. In some cases it becomes a case of scoring points (however meaningless they are) against Moderators. And I really frown on this behavior. I think we need to be providing legitimate suggestions and reasoning to the process, rather than scoring points off one another. Remember, I'm not saying that [i]everyone[/i] does this. Only a small minority. But those people know who they are.[/color]

[Sara]

[size=1]Again, I feel like I've lost control of what I originally meant...

Yes, I completely see where you are coming from on the 'Fate or Destiny' thread, now. I was reluctant to bring it up, as I was really quite satisfied with the answers provided previous to my second post, but, I was asked for an example...

I looked at the other threads I had been wondering about, and they each, individually, belong closed. It was the combination of several at once that brought up my questions.

Thank you again for clearing that up, James.

-Sara[/size]

[James]

[color=#507AAC]I think I know what you mean, Sara.

Perhaps if you look at closed threads over time...again and again, maybe a doubt builds up or something. Of course, Moderators aren't always going to get it right. So I try to cut them some slack if they close something inappropriately; I might reopen it anyway.

I just hope that people always feel as though they can talk to me or someone else about it. Nobody should feel that they'll get in trouble for bringing up a complaint or something.[/color]

[Sara]

[size=1]Heh, thank you. I think that's it.

[b]Nobody should feel that they'll get in trouble for bringing up a complaint or something.
[/b]

You'll notice the great lack of 'Even though I'll probably get banned for this...' in my posts. :p heh. That always made me laugh, when people added that..

-Sara[/size]

[Mnemolth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#507AAC]Nobody should feel that they'll get in trouble for bringing up a complaint or something.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Well there are other reason for not making a fuss. You get tired. Your voice gets hoarse. And soon enough you realise you no longer care anymore.

This isn't another harangue against the 'establishment'. Just a comment to explain to the few that may be wondering why I've not posted as much, either here, or in the Lounge. This also has a flow on effect on my posts in the Fan Fiction/Poetry section.

Hmm.... time to get back to my hole.

[James]

[color=#507AAC]It's nice to know, Mnemolth. It helps you retain some credibility on the forums I think.[/color]