What do you believe in?

[REVENGE2]

I'm hellbound. Partialy because I don't believe in Jesus as the savior, or as anything other then a mortal carpenter who was also a fairly skilled healer, and partialy because I'd prefer to be there, because up in heaven I've got to listen to people praising God all the time. In the end, it comes down to either physical torture (the depths of the Abyss) or mental torture (Listening to people praising God all the time), and I've chosen physical over mental.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anna [/i]
[B]Yeah, when and if you go there, let me know if you think we are Christian or not :rolleyes:. [/B][/QUOTE]

I had a brief look. I'm at home, and the connection is really slow, so it had to be a brief look. Judging by the basic beliefs, I can't see any problem. There's no basic belief there that "You must do certain stuff every week or else you will be damned to hell".

The only concept I'm not sure of is:

[quote]Before you were born, you lived as a spirit with God, your Heavenly Father.[/quote]

But then, that's just because it's not my personal belief. As far as I know it doesn't go against any Christian values.

So yeah, if the faith is followed as according to the website, I'd consider it more Christian than some of the variations out there. All denominations have flaws. Some of us practice idolatry, in an obscure way which aparently "isn't idolatry". The anglican church (mine) seems to have a misconception that if things aren't done a certain way, it's against God, rather than just against their preference. Fortunately my particular church is more liberal than the common trend.

There are probably similar flaws in certain people (not anywhere near all of them, just to clear that up) of your denomination- but judging by the website, the actual beliefs seem ok ;)

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sara [/i]
[B[size=1]I think, where I stand on a theological scale, I need to take the Bible at face value. If one part of it is false, there is no guarantee the rest of it is true. However, my beliefs include that which Scripture is inspired by God, and "Scripture interprets Scripture."
If you can show me something in the Bible that proves the rest is false, I would belive you..but then, if the rest was false, so would that verse be, and it means that the rest is true. :whoops:

Don't you love paradoxes?

[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#507AAC]This is an interesting problem. Do we take the Bible at face value or do we take the position that the scripture's words have deeper meanings?

I tend to believe that if [i]one[/i] part of the book is false then at the very least, doubt is cast on the rest of the book. Genesis is, obviously, completely false. The passage of time is a question where you ask yourself "does seven days really mean seven days...or can seven days symbolize millions of years?". It's hard to say. Obviously we know that Adam and Eve (and the story surrounding it) simply isn't possible. Anyone with even a basic scientific knowledge will tell you that.

But then you can look at the situation in a few different ways. For example, you can look at the Bible as part fact, part fiction. The ficitional elements may be designed to provide moral guidance and practical examples. It's hard to tell and it's an issue where even many Christians have differing views.

Generally speaking, I don't think it wise to take the Bible as a textbook of history. In other words, much of it can't be taken literally. I can produce numerous quotes from the Bible that, taken literally, are ludicrous. Genesis alone is full of such quotes.

But once again, it depends on both your perspective and interpretation. Those who believe that the Bible is a literal definition and historical textbook of the Earth (particularly those who [i]should[/i] know better, such as Creation "scientists") are people who will often choose a predetermined answer (the earth is 6000 years old) and then they will bend and twist the many contradictory scientific facts to fit their predetermined path.

So it's kind of a reverse science. Start with the answer and force the facts to fit, no matter how much the facts contradict the answer.

My main problem with the Bible is not the Bible itself. If you take the Bible in your stride and place it in conjunction with scientific fact, that's fine. But when you take aspects of the Bible literally and circumvent/surpass scientific knowledge...that's really indefensible. It's not so much a problem for the lay person -- a person who may not be literate in science to the point where they know that they are incorrect. But Creation "scientists" do not have such an excuse. What they practice is fraud.

So I think that the Bible comes in somewhere between. There are those who will embrace knowledge in conjunction with the Bible's moral lessons and spiritual guidance. And there are those who will take the Bible 100% literally, despite the vast breadth of contradictory information that is freely available. I think most Christians (even the Pope himself, who acknowledge the existence of evolution in 1989) can take a rational view of both schools of thought. And essentially, those people can see how religion and science are interlinked (and the place that the Bible itself takes in the process).

Anyway, bleh...that turned out longer than I thought it'd be. But I thought you'd find it interesting. ~_^[/color]

[Guest Kryptauros]

I, for one, don't believe in anything. I have no religion.

[TFlover]

I'm Buddhist. :D

[Sara]

[B][color=#507AAC]This is an interesting problem. Do we take the Bible at face value or do we take the position that the scripture's words have deeper meanings?[/color][/b]

[size=1]Heh.. Parables. I've been looking into this, actually, since Roxie brought it up. Again.. It makes sense, but since when is 'religion' supposed to make sense?[/size]


[color=#507AAC][b]Anyway, bleh...that turned out longer than I thought it'd be. But I thought you'd find it interesting. ~_^[/color] [/B]

[SIZE=1]Always do. ;)[/SIZE]

[Kazuko]

...

Edited October 13, 2017 by Kazuko

[REVENGE2]

I personaly think the best thing anyone could do with their time is to simply burn any book which tells you how you should live your life, and instead simply go with the flow and do what YOU think is right. Because in the end, what you think is right generaly goes along with what those books are telling you to do anyway. I don't think it's right to kill or steal. Thus, I do not kill or steal. That's just common sense. I don't need a big long story about someone finding fifteen commandments on three stone tablets (anyone who's seen History of the World Part One will know what I'm talking about there, if you haven't, then don't respond to that)

I used to hate all organised religions because I thought that they pretty much were responsible for all the crap in the world, and you have to admit, they kinda' are. Now, I just pity them. Religion is dying, slowly and steadly, with the onward advance of Science. So I don't let it trouble me much anymore.

Unless someone insults me because I don't believe in anything. In which case, I get downright UGLY.

I don't like science either, mind you. It makes things far to complicated. Endless hours explaing why it rains...

IT. RAINS. It should be as simple as that. It rains. It always has rained. It always will rain. And there is nothing anyone can do about it. So, if it rains, it always has rained and always will rain, then why should one waste their time trying to explain it? Life is too short.

***

[I can't believe I'm about to do this, but...]

By the way, the Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve were the ONLY humans.

Remember when Caine killed Abel? Cain then went to live with the 'other people'. I think you can probably interpret it somewhat like this:

In what is today Israel, there were two people named Adam and Eve, probably the first king and queen of importance, and where they lived was called Eden, which had a nice garden. For some reason, they had to leave Eden, never to return - perhaps exailed by a takeover? Regardless, they had two children - Caine and Abel. At some point, Caine killed Abel. Caine was then exiled. If history has any sense of iorny, then the 'other people' Caine went to live withere were {badapadada!] the Canaanites.

Look: the similarities are painful. Cain. Canaan.

Of course, that's just me trying to weave some fact into a myth.

[amibasuki]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]I personaly think the best thing anyone could do with their time is to simply burn any book which tells you how you should live your life, and instead simply go with the flow and do what YOU think is right. Because in the end, what you think is right generaly goes along with what those books are telling you to do anyway. I don't think it's right to kill or steal. Thus, I do not kill or steal.....
[/B][/QUOTE]
[FONT=arial]some people don't care. the only thing that's keeping them from doing those type of things is the law. even then, they do it anyway, if they think they're not gonna get caught. if everybody were to go with what they thought they should do, there'd be a heck of a lot more problems around today than there already are.
[/FONT]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]I personaly think the best thing anyone could do with their time is to simply burn any book which tells you how you should live your life, and instead simply go with the flow and do what YOU think is right.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Anyone who has no religious faith is really in no position to be saying such things. Besides, religious people are doing what they think is right. So if you disagree with that lifestyle of not being completely independent and living for yourself, cry about it.

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]I personaly think the best thing anyone could do with their time is to simply burn any book which tells you how you should live your life, and instead simply go with the flow and do what YOU think is right. Because in the end, what you think is right generaly goes along with what those books are telling you to do anyway. I don't think it's right to kill or steal. Thus, I do not kill or steal. That's just common sense. [/B][/QUOTE]

By that same token, should we burn all legal documents and live under total anarchy? I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. lol.

Rules and guidelines are necessary in life. People need consequences and repercussions for their actions. If people are left under their own discretion and simply do as they please, we're faced with a "system" of chaos. You say that it's wrong to kill and steal because it's what you have been taught. If we didn't have order to tell you that it's wrong to do such things, then you wouldn't believe that they're wrong. The bible helped introduce compassion to the world. There wasn't a cohesive law enforcement system to stop people from commiting crimes, so they were told that they would go to hell.

Moving on, what [I]I[/I] belive is a proper way of behaving could be completely subjective. What if I enjoy raping and plundering? Who is going to stop me if what I'm doing is perfectly legal simply because I feel it's right?

I don't really disagree with what the bible did. It was written to establish laws and guidelines to help govern people and their everyday lives. At the time it was written, people didn't travel--they were afraid of nature. Bandits and "monsters" plagued the earth. So, it kind of gave them hope and the feeling that they were safe. It established order.

Even today, a subjective system would be too broad. It would be like taking a huge step backwards in society. Without rules, this little online forum would fall apart. Could you imagine how reality would crash? The economy, safety, education--it would all be gone.

Burning the bible or any other religious document isn't really necessary either. If you don't like it, there's no need to disrespect something that helped to shape society. Just don't read it. It doesn't apply to you unless you accept it.

[DeathKnight]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Yu Yu Hakusho! [/i]
[B]I used to be what you would call one of "Jehovah's Witnesses." Often reffered to as "one of those "Witenesses"...."
My dad didn't like going to the Kingdom Hall (which is our church) so my after we moved from New Orleans to Houston, we kind of forgot about it.[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]Lol. I'm a former Jehovah's Witness. I honestly hate Christians, alot. Not the specific people here, because [most] of you dont point fingers at my opinons on religion as a whole, and I respect each of you greatly for attempting [we are only human] to keep most of this thread mature.

I veiw all religion as unneccesary, and a false hope for those that beleive in it. People want something greater in life, so they blindly strive after whoever or whatever set things in motion, to try to gain some sort of purpose in life besides just living life. That to me is sad, yet somehow it seems that all of us strive for something like that- Power, Money, Purpose. It all levels out on something we worship, if we go after it to a point..[/color]

[future girl]

hmmm, i believe in God, but somehow it's very different from the God that my mom wants me to believe in. I don't really consider the Bible as the way in which i should live my life, because as i said before i belive in God, and the bible was written by man. sure, they say men inspired by God, but a whole mess of serial killers were inspired by God too, and they're still locked up in prison. i don't know, i feel that there's a beauty in believing that there's something great and devine out there, i just find it difficult to believe that that great and devine entity can be so cruel, as the Bible poses him to be. the type of religion i was raised in scared the crap out of me, i saw excorsisms and all that type of stuff before i was even a teenager. i don't think God's like that, or at least he shouldn't be like that. i don't think God and his ways should give you nightmares, i had them for years becuase of revelations. i think it's supposed to embrace you, and you know, make you feel that despite how crappy this earth is it can find a path and that it doesn't have to be destroyed to find this way. i do believe in satan also, i think he's this evil that unleashes the darkness within a person, not necessarily half goat half man or a deformed creature. For some odd reason in my head i always pictured Lucifer as a very beautiful being, that his ugliness was inside. or why else would he be so appealing to humanity. *sigh*, i don't know, that's what i think right now. it makes sense in my head somehow.

[REVENGE2]

By that same token, should we burn all legal documents and live under total anarchy? I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. lol.
-Actually, do you even know what the anarchy theory entails? It basicly says that without a governemnet then people will be fine on their own. Sure, every once in a while you get a real psychopath. And, when it first comes around, there's going to be a long period of the darker sides of anarchy. But eventually, things settle down and work themselves out. I, as I believe that in a past life I might have been a Slaad (creature of pure chaos - not evil, just chaos), believe that anarchy could work. Only for so long, of course. Nothing is eternal. But just like Monarchy, Despotism, Communism, Republic, Democracy, and Fundementalism, Anarchy deserves a chance.

Rules and guidelines are necessary in life. People need consequences and repercussions for their actions. If people are left under their own discretion and simply do as they please, we're faced with a "system" of chaos. You say that it's wrong to kill and steal because it's what you have been taught. If we didn't have order to tell you that it's wrong to do such things, then you wouldn't believe that they're wrong. The bible helped introduce compassion to the world. There wasn't a cohesive law enforcement system to stop people from commiting crimes, so they were told that they would go to hell.
-This is very much like Legalism. That means, you're assuming that people are naturally bad and evil and prone to do bad and evil things, and only strict guidelines and a system of punishments will keep them in line. First started in China, it did. Anyway, assume all you want, but I refuse to believe that people are either good or evil, lawful or chaotic, or even neutral at heart. We just [i]are[/i]

Moving on, what I belive is a proper way of behaving could be completely subjective. What if I enjoy raping and plundering? Who is going to stop me if what I'm doing is perfectly legal simply because I feel it's right?
-That is a good point. Like I said, occasionaly psychopaths will come up. But, you said 'what I'm doing is perfectly legal'. The correct answer to that would be no, it's not legal, because there is no law for it to be legal or illegal by.

I don't really disagree with what the bible did. It was written to establish laws and guidelines to help govern people and their everyday lives. At the time it was written, people didn't travel--they were afraid of nature. Bandits and "monsters" plagued the earth. So, it kind of gave them hope and the feeling that they were safe. It established order.
-Order and chaos both have their kicks and drawbacks. So does neutrality, too. Saying that order is better then chaos is akin to saying that white is better then black

Even today, a subjective system would be too broad. It would be like taking a huge step backwards in society. Without rules, this little online forum would fall apart. Could you imagine how reality would crash? The economy, safety, education--it would all be gone.
-Actually, that's not true. The Digiexperience had no rules, and the only reason why it keeps collapsing is because...You know, I don't actually know why, but it's not because of the lack of rules. Something to do with the fact that the server sucks ***. Also, there is another board, the Digimon Lab, which has been without administraitors or moderators for quite some time now - years. The only problem we have is that we've also been without more then ten members for a very long time, so weeks or even a month can pass without a new post. Regardless, there are no moderators or administraitors to enforece rules. However, we aren't at each other's throats. We're very mellow.

Burning the bible or any other religious document isn't really necessary either. If you don't like it, there's no need to disrespect something that helped to shape society. Just don't read it. It doesn't apply to you unless you accept it.
-What the hell are you smoking...? Give me some of it some time, because it REALLY works. Sorry to be so blunt, but WHY WON'T PEOPLE JUST OPEN THEIR EYES?!

-Okay, first of all, if Christians had gone from the slave pits and being tossed at the lions to helping all those in need and never doing to others what was done to them, I could understand. However, once they got power, what did the Christians do? Set about destroying all 'pagan' religions. Rome was strong for three reasons - A powerful military, a strong economy, and tollerance. Once the Christians gained power, they lost the key factor - the tollerance. Following the loss of tollerance, the other two of course fell. You need three sides to have a triangle, after all.

-Then what happened with your precious 'order' brought about by dear oh dear Yahweh after Rome fell? Let me quote something:

"NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!" - Monty Python

That's right! How many died at the hands of the Inquisition?! HUH?! How many pagans, how many innocents...for crying out loud, the Inquisition burned the JEWISH, to whome they owed their entire relgion!

If this was a mere hundred-year thing, I could understand. but NO. When did Rome fall? Doesn't matter. The point is, it went on for HUNDREDS of years! Do you know when the last official burning of a pagan was? Around 1912.

As if that wasn't enough, Christians weren't satisfide with simply ahnialating the former glories of Europe's relgions. They have gone from place to place, trying to destroy the founding relgions which kept 'order' there for so long!

Next time you open that book of yours, consider thinking less of what 'order' it may or may not bring, and instead think of the millions of lives sacraficed meaninglessly to get that order. Do the ends justify the means? Do they?

I'd like to point out that I will NEVER forgive Christianity for Rome. Christians? Any Christians alive today have had nothing to do with it, so I have no beef with them. Its thier relgion and that dark god sitting atop his throne playing at being the good guy that I loathe with all my heart.

***

Boy, I feel better. I needed a nice long yell. Thanks for giving me the opportunity! You're a nice guy.

***

Back to the whole idea of government. In the end, it simply comes down to two phrases: "Do the ends justify the means" or "Do the means justify the ends?" No matter what happens, everything is going to collapse anyway. Think the US will be around a thousand years from now? If it is, do you really think that it can last for that long under it's government system - a Republic? No. It cannot. Even now, America walks on the edge of a blade. If it strays even a little either way, then it'll fall to doom. And it IS begining to walk away from the blade, even now. I give it another five hundred years on the outside.

The US isn't all that peachy either, though. For one thing, we've got a war-mongering psychopath as out presidant who seems to have something personal against any nation with nuclear capabilities. Sucks to be an American right now!

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#507AAC]Genesis is, obviously, completely false. The passage of time is a question where you ask yourself "does seven days really mean seven days...or can seven days symbolize millions of years?". It's hard to say. Obviously we know that Adam and Eve (and the story surrounding it) simply isn't possible. Anyone with even a basic scientific knowledge will tell you that.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

People with a basic scientific knowledge will tell you afew things.

- Someone's spine, if warped doesn't just "straighten out" instantaneously

- A knee problem (don't remember which, but the kind that needs operation normally) doesn't just heal instantly

- Late-stage Parkinsons disease doesn't just reverse in the space of a few seconds

- Water doesn't wash away permanent tatoos

- People with one very short leg don't suddenly find their one short leg growing to a normal size in the space of a few minutes





But I have actually seen the first two, I know someone who went through the third thing on the list (even her doctor can't explain it), and I know people who have witnessed the last two. They all have one thing in common- they were all recieving prayer for healing, except the last one, who was being baptised, and all his tatoos from being in the occult were washed away.

I don't care whether something's scientifically feasible or not.. when I see things that go against science I don't necessarily think "science is wrong", but that God isn't limited to what is scientifically feasible. I believe the whole Adam and Eve thing. I don't care whether it was meant exactly as that, or just as symbolism for something different. Or maybe it was just a lot easier to chew than evolution at the time that Genesis was written. Either way I believe that the scripture is true in some respects, whether I know what they are or not.

[Queen Asuka]

[color=orangered][size=1]Well, this thread frightened me a bit at first, but I like reading up on everyone's opinions.

Well, despite my father's wishes, I'm Mormon. And I'm happy. And I'm not going to argue with anyone. (Even though people try to argue with me.) My dad doesn't seem to happy about it, but my mom doesn't care. Sometimes I think she might be interested and that makes me hopeful.

My Aunt and Uncle, my dearest role models who just recently moved to Oregon, are Jehovah's Witnesses. They got so MAD at me when I got baptized, but what can I do? I'm not trying to make them happy. I'm just doing what I feel is right. They are also trying to convert my Nanna (My mom and my aunt's mom). She lets the Witness ladies come and talk to her once a week. She says that family reunions would be scary because everyone has so many different beliefs. My Uncle, my mom and aunt's brother, is Athiest.

Last time the family got together, my Aunt and Uncle tried to debate religion with me. And that's what I do not like. Why do people want to argue about it? You believe what you believe, and I respect that. So don't get all over my case for being different.[/color][/size]

[REVENGE2]

Doesn't the Mormon holy book (not the bible, the other one) have four points in it that not only contridict the bible, but also contridict what every other human on the planet knows to be a fact? That's just what my dad said, BTW. He told me one of them, but I won't get into it until I've got a confirmation.

***

Also, I'm willing to bet the 9/10ths of what science tells you is true is actually not. 9/10ths of religion is false and 9/10ths of science...There must be a middle ground

***

As for Adam, Eve, Caine, and Abel, apparantly everyone thinks that they were the only humans around at the time despite what I've refferanced. Maybe I've refferanced a differant version of the Bible? It's possible. Regardless, here's a question for the idea that they were the only humans - Adam and Eve had two sons, Caine and Abel. Now, one of the two could have reproduced with Eve (this is survival of the species we're talking about here, so don't say 'that's sick'). However, Caine killed Abel, and then Caine was banished into the Land of Nod. Thus, who was around to create a new race? By the time Adam and Eve had sired another pair, or even just a single son or daughter, both would have become too old to raise them, and all three/four/five/however many would have died (Keep in mind that back then, you were considered an old man if you were 35).

[Roxie Faye]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathKnight [/i]
[B][color=crimson]I veiw all religion as unneccesary, and a false hope for those that beleive in it. People want something greater in life, so they blindly strive after whoever or whatever set things in motion, to try to gain some sort of purpose in life besides just living life. That to me is sad, yet somehow it seems that all of us strive for something like that- Power, Money, Purpose. It all levels out on something we worship, if we go after it to a point..[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff]I'd have to say that most people behave well for their religion, because yes, they do want to get into heaven, and stay with God, but not ALL religious people are like that.

Take into account, myself(this is going to be a long story, but it has a point so bear with me). I used to be afraid of death, and I still am, but for different reasons. The point that goes with my story is, I used to be afraid of death, because in the end, what if there wasn't a Heaven, as my religion(Catholicism) says there is? Then would all my being good, and doing good be a waste of my life on this earth? And then I answered myself this: No, it wouldn't be a waste, because I'm not being good to get into heaven, I'm good, and I do good things because it gives others, and me satisfactions, happiness and joy. Getting into heaven because I do good is more a "bonus" for me, if you will.

The point of my story is, not all Christians, and people belonging to a religion are good JUST so they can get into Heaven. Yes, they may be good for other reasons, like mine(geting stisfaction out of it). Maybe a lot of them are, but not all of them.

Am I making any sense to you people, or am I reading too much into what you're saying, Ken?[/color]

[REVENGE2]

I think you're being very philisophical, MisstressRoxie. Don't worry. Philosophy is never out of place.

ALLWAYS QUESTION!

S' a good way to live your life. Gets annoying for other people, but it forces them to look at things they otherwise would not of.

[wrist cutter]

Well some Christians look at their religion the wrong way.

The point of Christianity is not "Follow the Ten Commandments and all the rules in the Bible to avoid burning on a cross in Hell for eternity." But some people look at it that way... so they end up doing good things out of fear. This is the wrong approach to Christianity...

The point is simply "Love God". That is all... if you love God, and put faith in him, that is all you need to do. There is no fear of hellfire for these people and these are the true Christians.

[amibasuki]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]Doesn't the Mormon holy book (not the bible, the other one) have four points in it that not only contridict the bible, but also contridict what every other human on the planet knows to be a fact? That's just what my dad said, BTW. He told me one of them, but I won't get into it until I've got a confirmation.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[FONT=arial]well, it's hard to know what you're talking about unless you get it out in the open. The Book of Mormon goes over many different topics, you'll have to be a bit specific;).[/FONT]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]-Actually, do you even know what the anarchy theory entails? It basicly says that without a governemnet then people will be fine on their own. Sure, every once in a while you get a real psychopath. And, when it first comes around, there's going to be a long period of the darker sides of anarchy. But eventually, things settle down and work themselves out. [/b][/quote]

Yo, check it. A theory is simply that, abstract reasoning. You can't assume that everyone has the same common sense and form a theory out of it. When I think of anarchy, I think of political disorder and confusion or a lack of authority or cohesive principles.

And really, if there's no order, who is to say who is and isn't a psychopath? Every society doesn't condemn murder or rape. You've probably been raised in a civil society that [I]does[/I] indeed frown upon such actions, so you feel that it's common sense to avoid such things.

[Quote][b]-This is very much like Legalism. That means, you're assuming that people are naturally bad and evil and prone to do bad and evil things, and only strict guidelines and a system of punishments will keep them in line. First started in China, it did. Anyway, assume all you want, but I refuse to believe that people are either good or evil, lawful or chaotic, or even neutral at heart. We just [i]are[/i][/b][/quote]

Assume all I want? You're doing most of the assuming, my friend. lol. You're placing enough confidence in a large society with no written laws to think that they'll retain civil values.

Look at the gangs and criminals presently roaming the streets. Now, take away all means of punishment. Of course, they'll steal and violate other peoples' safety. [i]But[/I], with no law enforcement, who will stop them? Citizens will have to respond directly to violators to protect what is theirs. The end result will be a perpetual state of terrorism and violence where there's little safety. A civilized society needs rules and there's no proof to prove otherwise.

[quote][b]-That is a good point. Like I said, occasionaly psychopaths will come up. But, you said 'what I'm doing is perfectly legal'. The correct answer to that would be no, it's not legal, because there is no law for it to be legal or illegal by.[/b][/quote]

[I]Right[/I]. You know what I mean. It is acceptable. But who says that they're psychopaths? After all, murderers and thieves are just doing what they believe is the right thing to do. I really don't see why anyone would work twelve hours a day when they can simply organize a mob and ransack others.

[b][quote]-Actually, that's not true. The Digiexperience had no rules, and the only reason why it keeps collapsing is because...You know, I don't actually know why, but it's not because of the lack of rules. Something to do with the fact that the server sucks ***. Also, there is another board, the Digimon Lab, which has been without administraitors or moderators for quite some time now - years. The only problem we have is that we've also been without more then ten members for a very long time, so weeks or even a month can pass without a new post. Regardless, there are no moderators or administraitors to enforece rules. However, we aren't at each other's throats. We're very mellow.[/b][/quote]

You're comparing a fairly inactive board with less than a dozen members to a large community. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. That's like comparing a society with ten people to a society with three thousand and saying that the same rules apply to both and yield the same effects.

I know that it's a bit silly, but I was trying to demonstrate that a large online community can't enjoy a quality existence without rules let alone a [b]real[/b] community.

[b][quote]-What the hell are you smoking...? Give me some of it some time, because it REALLY works. Sorry to be so blunt, but WHY WON'T PEOPLE JUST OPEN THEIR EYES?![/b][/quote]

Huh? I'll be blunt too. What are [b]you[/b] talking about? I've already stated in this thread that I'm not religious. I'm a big boy, no one forces me to read the bible, they never have. But, at the same time I respect those who are religious and I find it extremely rude to disrespect their beliefs by burning a religious text. Let people have their faith; it's an individual's personal choice whether they believe in the bible or not and you shouldn't attack it.

And the bible [I]did[/I] establish a set of values that helped govern early society. I don't need to take drugs to recognize what's directly in front of my face.

[b][quote]-Okay, first of all, if Christians had gone from the slave pits and being tossed at the lions to helping all those in need and never doing to others what was done to them, I could understand. However, once they got power, what did the Christians do? Set about destroying all 'pagan' religions. Rome was strong for three reasons - A powerful military, a strong economy, and tollerance. Once the Christians gained power, they lost the key factor - the tollerance. Following the loss of tollerance, the other two of course fell. You need three sides to have a triangle, after all.[/quote][/b]

Okay, yeah, this has nothing to do with what we're talking about. What are [I]you[/I] smoking?

[b][quote]A bunch of rambling about Monty Python and how evil Christians are and:

Next time you open that book of yours, consider thinking less of what 'order' it may or may not bring, and instead think of the millions of lives sacraficed meaninglessly to get that order. Do the ends justify the means? Do they?[/b][/quote]

Dude, I'm [u]not[/u] religious and I'm not building a campaign to defend Christianity. We're talking about beliefs here, not religious history. I'm just saying that the commandments laid forth a set of values that served as building blocks in creating the civil society we have today and that we need laws to keep that society in order.

That was the last passage I'll address because I don't want to delve even further off topic. I don't think that government or presidential policy really have a place here.

The point to this entire post is that if you ask me what I believe in, I won't answer with a religion. But I will tell you that I believe in some form of God and that law and order are vital in our lives not for the purpose of earning us admittance into paradise, but in preserving balance in the time we do have on earth.

[Juu]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]I'm sorry about this, but Revenge, I'm really starting to get annoyed by how you keep comparing these boards to another, and saying how this community's bad because we have too many rules. Yet, you say the boards you're from doesn't have any rules. Are you saying rules just make things more difficult? A good community needs rules. I'd actually like to see these boards of yours, and see [i]exactly[/i] how [i]clean[/i] they are.

And... You say we're so mean, yet you stay. I still don't get it. Why waste your time if you hate it here?[/color] [/size]

[quote] [i]Originally Posted by REVENGE2[/i]
[b]-This is very much like Legalism. That means, you're assuming that people are naturally bad and evil and prone to do bad and evil things, and only strict guidelines and a system of punishments will keep them in line. First started in China, it did. Anyway, assume all you want, but I refuse to believe that people are either good or evil, lawful or chaotic, or even neutral at heart. [i]We just are[/i] [/b] [/quote]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]No one's assuming, either. People do things that can be harmful to other people. They're trying to protect other people. Are you suggesting we just let people do chaotic things, running around killing people because they just [i]are[/i]?

I don't think so.[/color] [/size]

[Licky Dust]

[color=teal] i was raised x-tian...but as i aged i've become a hindu witch...or whatever title i have...i'm happy! :love: [/color]

[quote] GuaraCandraPrem : Modern day witches are just like mystics. [/quote] :tasty:

[REVENGE2]

[Is going to try Jame's suggestion of thinking, then writing, rather then thinking as writing. Uses the Gilligan's Island Loony Toon as his mantra.]

Okay.

First, what I was saying was kind of on topic, 'bout the 'what do you belive'. It's about religion. There's no way that any topic can ever stay on topic for it's entire time of being. It'll begin to move away - this topic has (we got onto governments). No matter what you do. It'll always happen. Chaos theory. And anyway, I think I might know what's on topic and what's off, this being MY topic and all.

Next, it's also still on topic because we're supposed to be saying what we believe. I believe A) Christianity is wrong and Yahweh is the scum of the Earth, B) Order is just as bad as Chaos, but in differant ways, C) Good refferance points (the boards I refferance) should be used; as they help to support my side.

Then, let me say this: No matter what I do my topics always end up going off topic anyway, so let's just go with the flow. You have no clue what kind of things I've ended up discussing because a topic wnet off-topic. Plus, these topics tend to loop backwards, ending up going back on topic, if allowed to continue for long enough. Example: I once asked "Why is Darkness beat up on all the time? It's not so bad". We talked a while about that; then ended up getting into a discussion of why Metal and Wood were seperated from Earth in the Oriental elements. We then got into how Good, Light, and Law and Evil, Chaos, and Darkness are not the same things, they're all differant. We continued to loop through various things, including why, if Beelzebumon's a Demon Lord and thus uses evil energy, he could put them to good use. Finally, we ended up back at the topic again, when we reasoned that Beelzebumon's actually using Dark energy, and putting it to good use, and therefor Light and Darkness are actually seperate from Good and Evil. In the end the topic had eight or so pages, half-filled with good reasoning and half filled with arguments. But the topic had been allowed to evolve along it's own lines, and thus, it actually ended (rather then someone saying 'this is off topic' and closing it).

Finally...actually, I can't think up any more good points, so I'm not just going to rant on for longer.