Here's another suggestion

[REVENGE2]

How about this - rather then having you list all the things which are not allowed in the rules, and then getting onto the punishments, you instead list what's not allowed, and then follow up with the punishment? Such as:

THING NOT ALLOWED: [insert definition and examples here].
>Penalty: [Insert punishmnet here]

For example,

SPAMMING: Spamming includes posting a thread which has already been posted, posting several times in a row, and/or posting a single-word post
>Pentalty: Banned for 1 week

Makes it easier and not so long to read. Thus; more people might read it, and in that case, more people might follow the rules more closely, rather then doing what they assume is okay and finding out it's not.

Also, I'd advise that not all bans be permenant except in a few cases [[i]a la[/i], threatening, hacking, breaking the rules on a large ammount of occasions after an incredably large ammount of warnings and being banned times (note the plural there) before]; because in some cases the crime does not fit the punishment. Spam is annoying, for example, but to be banned for a long while (oh, say...six months?) simply because you did something annoying is somewhat unfair - after all I don't find spam annoying and I'm sure many other people don't, so that perticular rule is simply depending on the whims of the person with the power to ban. Weather or not they're fair isn't the point; it's that what they find annoying someone else could feel indifferant about. They might be fair about it, but they're only fair through their points of veiws. And:

"Luke, you will find that many things depend on people's points of veiws" - Obi-Wan Kenobi

I dunno. Just a thought.

Incidently, I think there should also be a habeus corpus rule, or whatever the thing is called where breaking a rule before it's a rule does not count as breaking a rule

Like, let's imagine for a moment that spamming wasn't alsways against a rule, and someone did it. A lot. Suddenly, it's a rule - no spamming. The person who spammed a lot shouldn't have any bad thing come unto them, because it was not a rule when they did it. Of course, future transgressions would be handled normaly.

By the way, I'm going to put up a poll for this to see how many people agree.

[Transtic Nerve]

Well if people can't take the time to read it, then they don't need to be here. It's really as simple as that. The rules are simple. They provide an understanding of what is NOT allowed and what may become of you if you should do something that is not allowed. If you are too stupid to understand simple rules, then there is no place for you in society. We like people who can live and post up to our standards of intellectual ability. The rules are written in a way so the average person can understand them. Not so duffus and dumbass in the corner can read them. I'd rather have a board full of smart people who can voice their opinion in other ways than "thats tite" (which in itself is spelled wrong)

I believe the rules are fine as they are. If you can't take the time to read them then don't waste my time posting you're nonsensual bullsh*t. (not reffering to you, but to anyone who doesn't read the rules)

[James]

[color=#507AAC]Transtic, please don't use characters to bypass our censor. You know [i]that[/i] is something we shouldn't be doing here.

Anyway, to address the question at hand...

If we were to organize the definition of spam into one sentence, it may actually be [i]easier[/i] to miss specifics. That is why we use a very clear, straightforward dot point system. It's much easier to read down a list -- and it ensures that there is no ambiguity to our rules. We don't want our rules to be "open to interpretation" by members. Instead, rules should be very clear and thorough. This idea lends itself to a slightly longer rules page in general, but I don't believe that the rules page is overly long. Essentially, it would be possible to skim much of what has been published and still have a full view of what we expect.

In addition, most of our rules are common sense. These rules are here mainly as a disclaimer; to ensure that members always have a resource for understanding our policies and how we enforce them.

In terms of consequences, I believe that these are laid out pretty simply and clearly.

Generally we provide people with a warning about their behavior. The Moderator/Category Moderator/Administrator would provide specific details of what the member is doing wrong and how they can improve. Often these warnings come within a thread, so that others may also view them publicly.

Having said that, we do occasionally ban people immediately. But this is only in cases where people are demonstrating a clear lack of interest in any common sense rules. And obviously, mass spammers are also banned immediately.

I can tell you that our rules will be updated and streamlined in the future. But I can't tell you exactly when that will happen -- it largely depends on the time I have available.

Oh, and I forgot to mention earlier...

If we have a consequence where we ban people for one week...that makes things twice as tough for staff. There is already a huge number of active members in comparison to staff -- it's difficult enough to ensure that things are running smoothly on all parts of the board. If we start having a situation where we need to monitor weekly bans of several members, things become more messy and technical. It's better to have more of a case by case based system (which we do currently have). Often, members who are potentially banned are discussed in our Moderators forum thoroughly. This ensures that an autocratic decision on banning is rarely made. Therefore, most bans have full staff support and discussion before they occur. It also ensures that staff can discuss the rules with other staff and find a consensus on how to deal with a problem.

So, despite what some would have you believe, all bans are not performed by myself (I'd say maybe 10% are performed by me in total) and [i]most[/i] bans are discussed thoroughly by staff as well.[/color]

[Phantom]

Ok Revenge2, good points, but James...better ones.

TN, why the hell did you even post for if all you wanted to do was flame him indirectly?

About your suggestions Revenge2, I think that you got a couple strong points. For one, we have had a lot of complaints about newby spamming, member spamming, just general rule breaking recently, I think that re-vamping the penalty system might do the trick. The non permanent banns is probably a good idea. It would help shue(sp?) away newbs/members who really dont care, and it might teach the ones who do care not to do that kinda thing again.

Ok with that point, I dont really know how dificult that would be to implement. So my agreement, or disagreement ends there.

The rules, I find are quite simple really, anyone with 5 extra minutes in the day could EASILY go through it and understand it. What TN said about these kind of rules filter out dumb people, I dont really understand what he meant... The rules are there to confuse newbs who dont measure up intellectually to TN and to cause them to mess up and get banned? Hmm? I may be missing somthing.

Anyway, I have no probs with the rules as they are, but I was damned sure that their purpose was more along the lines of what James said than what TN said.

[size=1][b]note:[/b] GRRR James damned you for updating ure post! :)[/size]
[quote]If we have a consequence where we ban people for one week...that makes things twice as tough for staff. There is already a huge number of active members in comparison to staff -- it's difficult enough to ensure that things are running smoothly on all parts of the board. If we start having a situation where we need to monitor weekly bans of several members, things become more messy and technical. It's better to have more of a case by case based system (which we do currently have). Often, members who are potentially banned are discussed in our Moderators forum thoroughly. This ensures that an autocratic decision on banning is rarely made. Therefore, most bans have full staff support and discussion before they occur. It also ensures that staff can discuss the rules with other staff and find a consensus on how to deal with a problem.[/quote]Explains my question well :)

[REVENGE2]

2) Er...speaking of banning...why am I, in fact, not? I gathered from my last responces that it was certain that I would be. If, by some wild streach of the imagination, I have been spared, can I have my NeoRogueShadows account back, and simply delete the other ones? Oh, yeah, and also -

THANK YOU!

If not, then I just implement my Master Plan, get on with my life, and let you get on with yours, and we're all happier because of it.

***

JAMES:

Good points. But some people, whilst having an extra five minutes, don't want to read it all. It gets a bit boaring, and dull, and no one I know would want to read through them all the rules and THEN get onto what happens. Also, I'm not suggesting you just use one line. HECK no. That's begging for chaos to come through. The one-line thing was merely an example. I was just suggesting you change the format. Get to your point quicker. I dunno, maybe it's just me that doesn't want to read through the rules and then get onto the punishments, then more rules, more punishmnets, etc. It would require a lot of micro-managing to temporaraly ban people for a week or so, yes, but how often do you even have to warn people to stop spamming all the time, else they'll be banned, anywho?

Also the simple answer to your staff problems is to simply make a larger staff - get more moderators. Yes, there is a problem with corruption, but obviously you wouldn't just hand it out. Give it to someone like...oh...me! I know that sounds like a bad idea, but I'm in actuality someone who would just put into my sig "I AM A MODERATOR! FEAR MY DARK POWER!" But then never actually do anything with that power unless I absolutely had to.

Or, you could put them through grueling training up in the mountains of Japan, where wizended masters teach your possible-moderators-to-be to use their inside KI energy, and put them through harsh training which tests their strength, stamina, and willpower, and which they might not all survive!

I think the second sounds a whole lot safer (for this board, not the people's lives), but I highly doubt you have the resorces to hire people to do that for you. But, if you do...PLEASE SEND ME! I WANNA BE ABLE TO CHUCK WIND LIKE MOTOKO FROM LOVE HINA!

TRANSTIC NERVE:

The point wasn't that the rules were simple, it's that they come over too long a space and don't get to their points fast enough. You could have but ten simple rules, but if they don't get to their points fast enough, who realy wants to take five minutes of their time to read them?

By the way, you were a bit mean. Mellow out a bit. Life is far to short to spend time comming up with ways to indirectly flame me. Instead - find out how high you can count. Get a girlfreind. If you have one, ask her to go out to a movie or something. Something actually WORTH wasting time on

[Domon]

*proceeds to slam head against his desk.* uggghhh, yeesh, Revenge2 are you trying to get banned or what??? I mean good lord! I mean yes you have good points but the way your going about getting them voiced is a sure fire way to go the banning bin, which i'm surprised has not happened yet. Excuse me for sounding rude but thats what i honestly think. Yeesh, It is specifically stated that if you are new to the boards that you be sure to aquainte yourself with the rules which i'm sure isn't done often. I'm one of the guilty i don't check the rules that much but still i know when i've gone waayyy overboard in a post and that's when i tone it down a notch. Well all i was going to say was please think before you blow your steam off. I'm a going to shut up now and leave this post as is.

[Juu]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]It gets a bit boaring, and dull, and no one I know would want to read through them all the rules and THEN get onto what happens. [/b] [/quote]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]Well, that's their fault. All rules are boring to read, and nobody likes having rules, but it's something you have to read to do well (last longer :p) at the boards, or anywhere else, if people abide by them.[/color] [/size]


[quote] [b]By the way, you were a bit mean. Mellow out a bit. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=deeppink] [size=1]That's just... Chris, ya know? ^_^;
*hands you a marshmellow*[/color] [/size]

[wrist cutter]

Ya know, I've never read the rules and here I am, still actively posting. The rules here are just common sense things... I can sum them up in one sentence: "don't be a retard." If you just do common sense things like place things in the right forum, not post multiple times in a row, don't spam etc. It's not like an instant ban for a double post or anything either. I don't think anyone should even have to read the rules to understand how to post here... it's not that difficult. The rules are mainly to give those who like to piss and moan over why they're banned a solid reason.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]By the way, you were a bit mean. Mellow out a bit. Life is far to short to spend time comming up with ways to indirectly flame me. Instead - find out how high you can count. Get a girlfreind. If you have one, ask her to go out to a movie or something. Something actually WORTH wasting time on [/B][/QUOTE]

Life is also too short to be complaining about a clock that's one minute off, or coming up with multiple e-mail addresses and screen names on a message board for really petty reasons. And if you knew TN at all, he actually does have a life, and friends, and such. If anyone should be taking that advice it's you.

[James]

[color=#507AAC]Nice response, wrist cutter. ~_^

Anyway, any question about the rules being too long is moot in my opinion.

If you don't want to spare a measly five minutes to read through them, then that's your business. But if you get banned, don't complain that you didn't know you did something against the rules. It's up to you.[/color]

[REVENGE2]

WRIST CUTTER:

I wasn't complaining! I noticed that it was off by one minute and all I did was say so! How is that complaining?! Oh well.

And anyway, doing all the stuff I might end up doing in't wasting my time. Wasting my time implies that I could be doing something better with my time. But, until my school starts again on Thursday, I don't have something better to do with my time. Unless the Digiexperience starts up again...but I doubt it. It's normaly down for months at a time. Someone should really give Radix and GOLDEN a swift kick in the butt and tell them to simply open up a nice, simple EZboard if they can't handle YaBB.

***

Also, I'd like to point out that I don't like half-finished jobs. Me pointing out that I haven't been banned yet isn't an attempt to get myself banned. It's an attempt to figure out why I have not been, seeing as I 'deserve' to be. If I'm going to get banned, say so and ban me. If not, then say so and don't. Me being left out, not knowing what is actually going to be my own fate, is annoying.

***

Also 'common sense' rules are - like so many things - a bit titchy. When I first started doing things at message boards, that was at the Digimon Experience (my, I bring this up a lot, don't I?). The Digiexperience did not at the time have a codefide set of rules. 'common sense' was in place, as well. But as no rules were written 'common sense' again came down to point of veiw. Like I said, I have no problem with spamming. Why? Because not only did I do it, but the entire board I was at did it. It was faster then editing a post on a UBB board, and plus, it made the topic longer, thus making it seem more important. Plus, there were only two administators - the aforementioned Radix and GOLDEN - and no moderators. Thus, they couldn't manage everything, and half the time weren't even there when someone actually did do something wrong, and I cannot remember a single person ever getting banned.

Anyway, the moral of this little story which you didn't have to absolutely read is that don't assume that everyone has the same 'common sense'. Because 'sense' is not 'common'. I mean, heck, if I had any common sense, I would be Christian, to possibly avoid the endless torment of Hell that may just await me. But I don't, because A) Hell is better then heaven in some respects and B) It's more fun down there anyway

[James]

[color=#507AAC]o_O;;

First and foremost, we do not assume that everyone has the same common sense (as you have apparently demonstrated). Thus, we have a rule page published online. That seems self evident, wouldn't you say?

And secondly, we have banned you twice so far. Your first name "Rogue Shadows" and then your second, more recent name. You have now registered under a [i]third[/i] name.

If we ban you [i]again[/i], are you going to come back and say "Will you just BAN me and stop SAYING you're going to ban me?". Don't you see the problem there? lol

In any case, I'm unsure at this point what your intention is. Are you trying to tell us how to run our own boards or are you simply typing as much as you can to read your own text? At this point, I don't think you're really offering anything of value. This just keeps going around in circles over and over again.

I will let you stay under your current name if you ensure that you abide by our rules. That's all we ever ask. But if this ridiculous discussion gets even [i]more[/i] ridiculous, I will ban you [i]yet again[/i]. And it will be permanent, I assure you.

[/color]

[Domon]

Please REVENGE2 if all you are trying to do is cause chaos and anger in the boards than just stop. Its really just a little rude, and i must agree with James, you've been banned twice already and now your attempting to be banned again, what are you trying to accomplish??? Really. What are your motives behind this little plot of yours??

[REVENGE2]

o_O;;
-I can make faces to! They suck, though. I think my best one is ^.^ I'm content with that, though.

First and foremost, we do not assume that everyone has the same common sense (as you have apparently demonstrated). Thus, we have a rule page published online. That seems self evident, wouldn't you say?
-Yeah, but that comes back to the first problem, which is, you don't get to the point fast enough, therefore some people just assume that it's the same 'common sense' as their own and go about their buisness. The idea isn't to change your rules, it's to make them easier to read.

And secondly, we have banned you twice so far. Your first name "Rogue Shadows" and then your second, more recent name. You have now registered under a third name.
-Uh...try five or so. Rogue Shadows, NeoRogueShadows, REVENGE, REVENGE2, and then another as well, back before I was Rogue Shadows. The whole 'alternate personality' game I played then too. It REALLY is great fun, you should REALLY try it (although it'd probably be a bad idea to do it here, because then not only are you breaking rules but you're also breaking your OWN rules...you could do it at an EZboard or something, though). Anyway, I was then told it was against forums rules. I think I said "Oops...my bad" and then relinquished that one. I think it was Shyguy who said that was a no-no. [Files that under another thing the rules say that I didn't know was a no-no]

If we ban you again, are you going to come back and say "Will you just BAN me and stop SAYING you're going to ban me?". Don't you see the problem there? lol
-Er...well, the problem I think is the whole IP adress thingy. Thus I don't actually know weather or not I was banned, and will never know unless my screen name is banned. In which case, as I said, I just implement my master plan, which I apparantly won't even need a second computer for, and get on with my life and let you get on with yours.

In any case, I'm unsure at this point what your intention is. Are you trying to tell us how to run our own boards or are you simply typing as much as you can to read your own text? At this point, I don't think you're really offering anything of value. This just keeps going around in circles over and over again.
-Um...actually, the first should be 'making suggestions to better the board' like most people who go here probably intend to do (I'm happy to be a minion, you see, although I make a great power behind the throne. Horrible leader). If it were that, then it would actually be a bit of both, with extreme emphisis on the first. I like reading my work. Mostly because, ever since I started writing, very little other writing has entertained me, except some animes (surprising, Evangelion is not included, despite the fact that it's right up my ally) and stuff by R.A. Salvatore.

I will let you stay under your current name if you ensure that you abide by our rules. That's all we ever ask. But if this ridiculous discussion gets even more ridiculous, I will ban you yet again. And it will be permanent, I assure you.
-Funky. Like I said earlier - thank you. Er...is there any way I can chnge REVENGE2 to something else? You know, keep the screen name, but change what people see it as? [It's a lot simpler then simply making up ANOTHER new screen name and asking you to kill this one]. Or better yet, let me have NeoRogueShadows back, and simply kill the other ones.

[pause]

by the way, I was reading this even as I replied. It's what I always do. So if I contridict myself in any post, follow the last thing I said.

TRANSTIC NERVE:

About the whole line where I said "Get a girlfreind..." yadd yadda yadda...sorry! I didn't read the last line of your sig. Damn, I feel like an idiot now. Feel free to PM me death threats or something. Although that little paragraph wasn't suppose to insult you! No! I was jut making suggestions for things to do with your time! Agh...[Is going to jump off a cliff now or something]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by REVENGE2 [/i]
[B]-Yeah, but that comes back to the first problem, which is, you don't get to the point fast enough, therefore some people just assume that it's the same 'common sense' as their own and go about their buisness. The idea isn't to change your rules, it's to make them easier to read.[/quote][/b]

[color=#507AAC]The rules are in dot point format. They get directly to the point and are listed [i]point by point[/i]. How on Earth do you make them get to the point more quickly? They get to the point just fine. What you're suggesting would dilute what we already have and I don't think it's appropriate or useful to do that. The rules will remain as they are -- if people don't want to spend a mere five minutes reading over them, that's the risk they are willing to take.[/color][quote][b]

-Uh...try five or so. Rogue Shadows, NeoRogueShadows, REVENGE, REVENGE2, and then another as well, back before I was Rogue Shadows. The whole 'alternate personality' game I played then too. It REALLY is great fun, you should REALLY try it (although it'd probably be a bad idea to do it here, because then not only are you breaking rules but you're also breaking your OWN rules...you could do it at an EZboard or something, though). Anyway, I was then told it was against forums rules. I think I said "Oops...my bad" and then relinquished that one. I think it was Shyguy who said that was a no-no. [Files that under another thing the rules say that I didn't know was a no-no][/quote][/b]

[color=#507AAC]What on Earth is your point? Do you have any concept of how much you are rambling on without actually saying anything substantial? lol[/color][quote][b]


-Er...well, the problem I think is the whole IP adress thingy. Thus I don't actually know weather or not I was banned, and will never know unless my screen name is banned. In which case, as I said, I just implement my master plan, which I apparantly won't even need a second computer for, and get on with my life and let you get on with yours.[/quote][/b]

[color=#507AAC]My god...are you sure you have nothing better to do? I mean, seriously.

You [i]were[/i] banned. I think it was Justin who personally told you that he banned you. I've also verified this. Don't tell me that you're posting all of this rubbish now just because you wanted to confirm that you were banned -- that's ridiculous. It's simple enough to ask and be told. All you are doing now is wasting everybody's time.[/color][quote][b]

-Um...actually, the first should be 'making suggestions to better the board' like most people who go here probably intend to do (I'm happy to be a minion, you see, although I make a great power behind the throne. Horrible leader). If it were that, then it would actually be a bit of both, with extreme emphisis on the first. I like reading my work. Mostly because, ever since I started writing, very little other writing has entertained me, except some animes (surprising, Evangelion is not included, despite the fact that it's right up my ally) and stuff by R.A. Salvatore.[/quote][/b]

[color=#507AAC]I don't mean to be offensive...but I think you really should seek some medical/psychiatric assistance. lol

Just reread this paragraph of yours. Would it be possible to bounce back and forth between subjects any [i]more[/i] than you've already done? lol

It's okay to make suggestions...but I don't know [i]what[/i] you are doing now. Does anyone else understand what is going on here? I might be crazy, but right now you seem to be rambling on and on about nothing in particular. o_O[/color][quote][b]

I-Funky. Like I said earlier - thank you. Er...is there any way I can chnge REVENGE2 to something else? You know, keep the screen name, but change what people see it as? [It's a lot simpler then simply making up ANOTHER new screen name and asking you to kill this one]. Or better yet, let me have NeoRogueShadows back, and simply kill the other ones. Although you might want to PM me to tell me first when (and if) it's ready; otherwise I might get icky again, because I'd think that I was banned. Again. After you said this [bad memmory, you see].[/quote][/b]

[color=#507AAC]Oh man...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Ah, the stresses of being an Administrator.

You've reregistered five times or whatever and now you're asking for a name change? I...I...*explodes*

What is [i]wrong[/i] with you? lol

Please...somebody...bring a stretcher and cart me off to the nearest hospital. I'm suffering from stress related illness...

[size=72]o_O;;;[/size][/color][quote][b]

[pause]

by the way, I was reading this even as I replied. It's what I always do. So if I contridict myself in any post, follow the last thing I said. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#507AAC]LOL

It's not so much a matter of contradicting yourself...it's a matter of having the mental capacity (read: insanity) to actually follow what you're saying in the first place.

I really hope all your posts on OB are not like this in the future. I don't know whether to be entertained or frustrated out of my mind...

Anyway, I'm going to close this now. I wonder if everyone else is as confused as I am...lol [/color]:worried: