Kent Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Everyone keeps making the points about the murderers rights... what the crap! How can you be so nasty to ignore the person who was robbed of their life for no reason. Then to protect the person that did it. Come on... are you just ignoring the victim because they are dead, or is it just cause you dont care. If you care so much, think about the victim first, not the man that took the life which began the whole problem. Why protect he who is the villian and not protect the victim? It makes no sense to me to claim killing is wrong and then ignore the victim of a murder. ------------------------------------ Ok, I also wanna mention that I am a religious person, but to act like we need to not worry about punishing those who murder for no reason is foolish. Frankly, when Im making a law, Im not leaving a damn thing up to god. So let god judge them after I send them to him. ------------------------- Also, letting someone with no conscience "stew" over what they have done is completely idiotic. They dont care. So to act like their conscience will catch up with them is foolish. ------------------------------ Most important in this is that, we dont execute every murdered. Just the most violent and the ones with no regrets for their crimes. ----------------------------- Its also important to remember that no one on the earth is with out "sin" and therefore we dont even have the right to imprison these people. I mean, would you consider imprisonment a nice thing to do... hell no. I would hate it, but then again, 3 hots and a cot... That along with an exersice program, all the books I could read and cable television. Hmmmm... that sounds really bad, NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I've always been pro-tooth for a tooth, eye for an eye, etc. If you have sense of mind to kill/rape/rob/maim/etc. someone, I believe you should be just punishment. Sure, if someone steals your car, stealing their car wouldn't hold a problem, seeing as how they could most likely boost another one. But I'm not speaking literal terms here; make them pay for a new car for the victim. As for muderers... ...Well, I've always said, why don't they just bring them out back in front of a firing squad after they are convicted? Why the need for a nice, easy death of lethal injection? Why not just inject them with a few CCs of bleach? That would do some hurtin. Besides, if someone beats, say, a mother and her child to death with a golf club, would you want that person to have an easy death? HELL_NO_. I say, give them a few minutes with me and a baseball bat. **** 'cruel and unusual' punishment. Eye for an eye, folks. Eye for an eye... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Hot damn! Medra you are my new bestest friend on the boards. (if your cool with that) I gotta say, I admire your honesty and your integraty, we need more of that in todays society. I personally believe in arguing with the "pie in the sky" peace-niks by being a little more compramising, but I like your style. I wanna give you a qoute. "Capital punishment is our societies affirmation of the value of human life" -senator Oran Hatch, UT. (R) I believe that you have taken the aggressive stance I didnt take, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 [color=#507AAC]I don't support the death penalty for two good reasons. First, it's unconstitutional. How on Earth can you have laws against murder when the state itself is immune from such laws? Think about it. It's ridiculous. The state has absolutely no business teling people that they can't murder one another if it is prepared to start murdering people (for whatever reason). Secondly, the death penalty isn't harsh enough. If someone had raped my sister for instance...would I really want them to lay back and fall asleep peacefully? Hell no! I want that person to suffer for the rest of their life. I want them to engage in hard labour until they die of natural causes or whatever. There is no way a lethal injection is appropriate justice; half these idiots [i]want[/i] to be killed in a peaceful way. There is no pain or suffering...not like the pain and suffering inflicted on the victim. How is that [i]true[/i] justice? It's not. If you want an appropriate form of punishment, you should be thinking on a bigger and less simplistic scale. Let's get away from the "Hu hu, yah, let's kill 'em bastards with a needle ya'll" and start thinking about how we can [i]most appropriately[/i] punish people. Imagine if you were a murderer. What is worse? A lethal injection where you feel no pain and simply fall asleep...or decades of back breaking work all day, only the bare minimum food (the bare minimum of what is legal, ie: bread & water) and hardly any hours for sleep each day. If I knew that the latter was going to be my fate (a fate worse than death), I'd gladly take the needle.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juu Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 [color=deeppink] [size=1]Well Gokents... It's not like they forget or ignore the victims. I mean, once a person's dead, they really can't do anything about it, except catch the person who commited the crime, so no one else will have to go through the same thing. I think it's ironic, (not appointed at anyone) if you support the death penalty but don't like people dying. I mean, I think the death penalty kind of supports death, because the person they killed died, yet the murder dies as well. That's two lives. Alot more than you may think. Although, I've always wondered if anyone who recieved the death penalty didn't deserve death, or didn't commit the crime at all... I've always wondered about that. Anyway, my point here is, the death penalty is just more death. One life is enough, why take another? People who commit those crimes might actually be doing this because they want to die. Maybe that's exactly what they want.[/color] [/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoCactuar Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Medra [/i] [B] As for muderers... ...Why the need for a nice, easy death of lethal injection? Why not just inject them with a few CCs of bleach? That would do some hurtin. Besides, if someone beats, say, a mother and her child to death with a golf club, would you want that person to have an easy death? HELL_NO_. I say, give them a few minutes with me and a baseball bat. [/B][/QUOTE] Well Neil, i agree with you on the point that an injection is much to nice and easy death for a murderer, but i still don't think that immediate death is the answer. I mean, someone could say "I don't care about the consequences if i murder people, I?ll just get the injection, and that will be that, no suffering, and I?ll even get a nice meal". The people who commit the most horrendous crimes should be made to pay, but made to pay by spending the rest of their lives in prison, give them plenty of time to think about what they've done. I?m sure there would be less murders if the death penalty was abolished. If you were a mass murderer, what would you prefer? Die now, easily and quietly. Or spend 60 years in Prison, then Die. It's what goes through their minds that matters, if we can give them just one little thing more to discourage them from committing a murder, it will help. Sure, it may only stop 0.001% of murders, but those are still people?s lives, lives we should be willing to do anything to save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 No, Im sorry but I agree with you to some extent, but no. preventing .0001 percent is nothing. Yet, by killing them with no mercy, those selfish bastards will fear for their lives and not be as likely to kill. If you wanna make them pay, do what they do in saudi arabia, cruel and unsual punishment. (to american standards) Fact is, these pychos plan on your mercy, not your vengence. My biggest thing in this is that no one has addressed the victims rights. What about them, arent they worth something. Not the theoretical, self inflicted guilt. Rather, the punishment they would recieve from medra and I would not only end the insult to the victim, but also end the possibility of any evils occuring again. Would it really be worth your lover, or mother, or brothers life just to see some jerk sit in jail and try to cope with his imprisonment. I mean, its not like they sit in jail and think about what got them there. They sit there and think about how they should be out. Even worse, what they will do when they do get out, which they will with your mercy. You can prevent much more by executing those people. Those people are the ones that dont care about the after life until the moment of death, if they cared they wouldnt kill in the first place. 60 years in prison is a gift to them. They know the things they did are worth their own lives, but they know people like you will protect them the way you should have protected the people they wronged. Everything is complicated today, and nothing can be settled easily. Yet people like you wish to continue arguments by protecting the lowest of the low. Yes, they deservED our simpathy, but after what they have done, they no longer do. ****, do you know who David Westerfeild is? Until any of you can answer that, just be quiet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Giving a life time in jail is just the same as the Death Penalty, there going to die in jail, there just being prolonged. Life is probably the better way to go, that way the crim doesn't have to live in jail for till his butt is so stretched he can hide 3 small mexicans in it. Some people may of heard of Martin Bryant? He killed arouynd 20 people or so in Port Arthur, Tasmania a few years back. He was sentinced to life in jail, but after about 3 weeks he tries to kill himself by attempting to stick a whole tube of toothpaste down his throat, but he was saved, sadly. If you ask him, he would tell you that jail is worse then death, because in death you get the easy way out. PS. Some people deserve death. People like Hitler, Osama, Pal Pot and maybe Sudaim. There are always exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I respect you more with your your words mentioning pol pot and osama, but read my post above. You know who westerfield is. You know who daniel was. Do you know the details... the real ones. The Westerfield family had a family reunion. Davids niece and several other girls her age slept in an up stairs bed room. (they were all under 15) David showed up in the middle of the night, playing with himself. He went to each one and touched their teeth. (This is all testified to by the actual niece in court. I watched it.) Now back to daneil. Daneil van damn. 7 years old. Went to sell David girl scout cookies a year before her death. A year after that, she dissapeared. Westerfield at the same time of Daniels dissapearance, came home after a weekend away by himself (that same weekend she dissappeared) only to find police looking for him. He turned around and went over 150 miles into the desert. (allegedly) 3 weeks later the missing girl, daniel, was found. Dead, wrapped in a blanket. Westerfield was arrested. Daniels blood was found on his jacket. (oddly, David got his clothes and jacket dry cleaned that very day he returned from a weekend away. Which by the way, he showed up at the dry cleaners in his underwear trying to get all his clothes, including his jacket, cleaned) David had his house raided. What do they find, child pornography. David stands trial. What is revealed... Daniels teeth were all knocked out, rammed into her throat. All were recovered besides one. She was raped. Mean while, investigation on David continues... His motor home he took away for the week end... Daniels hair is found in it. Even more distrubing is the hand prints, palms down on each side of the bed. The prints were daniels. Eventually dna evidence proves to be overwhelming and the trial ends. David is sentenced to death. His attorney offered a plea, it was turned down. After the body was found the plea was turned down, yet David attorney fights for Davids innocence. David is now on death row. Tell me if you know this story, and like I said... If you dont... dont bother with your idealistic defense of criminals. Most of all remember, you can do a search, this is real. The San diego area will tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i] [B] Yet, by killing them with no mercy, those selfish bastards will fear for their lives and not be as likely to kill.[/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]The death penalty is actually not much of a deterrent. I can tell you that from the experience in my own country; we abolished the death penalty in all states and territories during the late 1970's. And through our own experience of both having it and not having it, we've definitely discovered that it doesn't make much of a difference, in terms of prevention of crime.[/color][quote][b] My biggest thing in this is that no one has addressed the victims rights. What about them, arent they worth something. [/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]I think people [i]are[/i] addressing the rights of victims. We all understand that the victim is the one who suffers most of all. I don't think anyone is ignoring victims here. The question is whether or not the death penalty is appropriate. And there are a few angles through which you can come at the debate. Do we lower ourselves to the same standards as common criminals, by murdering via the state? And is life in prison really [i]worse[/i] than death? I don't know. I think life in prison is probably worse. Consider the fact that you may be beaten, raped or even killed in prison. I'm 50% on your side, in the sense that I don't think life in prison is [i]really[/i] harsh enough. That's why I'd combine it with my earlier suggestions.[/color][quote][b] You can prevent much more by executing those people. Those people are the ones that dont care about the after life until the moment of death, if they cared they wouldnt kill in the first place. [/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]Once again, I don't think so. There is no evidence to suggest that the death penalty serves as a serious deterrant. You actually contradict yourself with that second point. "If they cared they wouldn't kill in the first place". That's absolutely true. And that is exactly why the death penalty offers no real deterrant. It takes a certain level of mental instability to murder someone in the first place (assuming it's a premeditated murder and not self defence). If the murderer cares so little for the life he/she is taking, do you really think that he/she will care about the consequence of the death penalty? Of course not. This is the key contradiction which brings down the whole question of deterrance.[/color][quote][b] 60 years in prison is a gift to them. They know the things they did are worth their own lives, but they know people like you will protect them the way you should have protected the people they wronged. Everything is complicated today, and nothing can be settled easily. Yet people like you wish to continue arguments by protecting the lowest of the low.[/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]Who is suggesting that criminals be protected? I don't think anyone here would object to a combination of their freedom being removed and hard, forced labor being compelled by the prison. Nobody is protecting murderers. Objecting to the death penalty is [i]not[/i] a protection or a justification for criminals. By that standard, I could say that you are protecting murder. And we both know that you aren't. So I don't think it's fair to tell people who disagree with you that they are protecting murderers.[/color][quote][b] Yes, they deservED our simpathy, but after what they have done, they no longer do. ****, do you know who David Westerfeild is? Until any of you can answer that, just be quiet. [/B][/QUOTE] [color=#507AAC]I can answer that. I know exactly who David Westerfield is. I saw his mother's extremely emotional comments in the courtroom, after his death sentence was handed down. Believe me, that was a very emotional moment and I feel for Danielle's parents so deeply. That is why I want justice for them. I don't want David Westerfield to be killed quickly and silently. I want him to suffer for the rest of his days for what he has done. I want him to feel the pain of Danielle 100 fold. Killing him won't even come close to doing that. But a life without freedom and with massive physical and mental burdens absolutely will.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I think most criminals get what's coming to them! If someone brakes the law then they deserve jail time and such. But I ask you this, would you rather spend the rest of your life in jail or spend a few months waiting to die? I think death sounds pretty good, and there not suffering much, so there almost getting away with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 James, your thoughts are well-founded and valient, but we're not saying simply give them a needle. In fact, you'll notice I denounced lethal injection in my ealier post. Eye for an eye. Let's use your example of someone raping and killing your sister. Have the same exact effect done to the rapest. Throw him into a prison gangrape and then strangle/beat/whatever him to death. Throw in a partial drowning too if you like. The point is, I support the death penalty, just the means of it. THAT, my friend, is the jist of our argument. Brutal deaths by the most horribly ironic means? Oh, I definatly think that would throw some murders off. To your statement, also, of rotting in jail? What if someone just stabs a guy on the street in a mugging? Second degree murder. I think it's 10 to 25 years, with parole. With your way, in just ten years, that person could be on the streets again, and might kill someone else, and maybe get away with it this time. With my answer, they get a taste of their own medicine, and another life might just be saved. Touche...;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I am kind of on the fence with capital punishment. I'm not going to refute what anyone has said directly because everyone has a point to some extent, so I'll just ramble on for a bit with my own thoughts. First and foremost, I don't feel that the death penalty is state-sanctioned murder. The "You're no better than the murders" argument is popular, but transparently false. Simply put, the state has rights that the private individual does not. In a democracy, those rights are given to the state by the electorate. The execution of a lawfully condemned killer is no more an act of murder than is legal imprisonment an act of kidnapping. I mean, if everyone on Otakuboards lived on one continent and I forced them to pay me under threat of punishment, it would be extortion. If a state or government does it, it's taxation. Rights and responsibilities surrendered by the individual are what give the state its power to govern. The process of carrying out the execution leaves me with mixed feelings. On one hand, as others have said, the convicted murderer will die painlessly. The families will have the satisfaction of [i]seeing[/i] the murderer die, but the execution will not be nearly as painful or barbaric as the victim's death. It's not really an "eye for an "eye." On the other hand, I think that the [i]fear[/I] of waiting for death might be worse than physical pain and torture. As a matter of fact, fear is the one antagonizing common ground shared by both murderer and victim. Putting a date on anyone's death is sure to lead to a lot of mental stress. Yet, carrying out the death penalty is ineffective, to say the least. :rolleyes: State and local governments pay for the prosecution as well as for the defense team; much of this money is spent even if the defendant actually gets a lesser sentence. Once the case gets into Federal Court, oh boy, look out. The United States, as I know it, starts picking up the defense tab and the sums can be pretty darn daunting. Death cases definitely cost more than their non-capital counterparts. The lack of finality is terrible too. Convictions are attacked with more gusto and reviewed with more vigor. [I]So,[/I] a lot of the sentences can be vacated. The retrials, and hearings must become tiring for the families. You see, I'm against criminals living it up comfortably in prison, enjoying meals and what not, but murderers might as well get life. The appeals and actual time separating conviction and the death penalty take years upon years, anyway. Moving on, the barbaric death solution I'm hearing sounds fair and all. But, I don't really think it'll stop people from murdering. Especially when we're dealing with crimes of passion or complete insanity. Anyway, yeah, like I said, I'm undecided where I stand. I don't agree with many of the arguments opposing capital punishment (such as innocent executions), but I do doubt the effectiveness involved. That's all I have to say about that. [center][img]http://cwb.250free.com/Others/thatsfinal.jpg[/img][/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 [quote][i]Originally Posted by Medra[/i] To your statement, also, of rotting in jail? What if someone just stabs a guy on the street in a mugging? Second degree murder. I think it's 10 to 25 years, with parole. With your way, in just ten years, that person could be on the streets again, and might kill someone else, and maybe get away with it this time. With my answer, they get a taste of their own medicine, and another life might just be saved.[/quote] [b][color=003399]That's why I think longer penalties should be served for any kind of murder if the death sentence was abolished. Think about it, being in jail for life is very similar to death in some circumstances. Getting beaten up, barely any food and constant work. As James said, putting a murderer to the death penalty is such an easy way out with them. In a way it's like they got away scot-free, as I'm sure a lot of murderer's don't have anything to lose.[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 My thing is that you (anti-capital pun. supporters) have said you are all about victims rights, but I still see nothing besides the well intended efforts by James to make us feel as if jail is punishment. The biggest part of that arguement that is lacking is the criminal conscience. You have to ASSUME in your arguement that the criminal is gonna feel bad. You dont wanna think about how that murderer is gonna end up in a land of drugs, free everything and the closest gang member friends ever. The truth is, my argument was never meant to use deterance as a main point, just a supporting point. I dont like leaving things "hanging in the air." I want to know for sure that the criminal has payed. I dont want to have to ask myself if they are unhappy because they are getting that free holiday where you only get to see the family you dont care for once every week. I would rather know that justice has been served and the whole ordeal is over with. Not that the murderer is sitting on the other side of a wall thinking about whats coming on cable tonight. (which, most prisons do have now, including internet.) James, I know you care, but why leave Westerfield in jail just to read and enjoy what little freedom he still has. All the while, Daniel is gone. And not just gone, but actually stuck in the limbo of being a memory, which (if you had your way) will never be avenged. Justice is not letting one person off with a limited life style and letting the other person get the punishment that Daniel got. I will say this much, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and tell yourself that prison is worse than death. But if you believe in god judging these people, hell will be a better punishment for Westerfield. And if you dont believe in god, you should support turtore and then death. Not the limited freedom and civil rights that you get in jail. (That sort of punishment will never be enough to avenge a wrong like what daniel recieved.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike speigel Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i] [B]I will say this much, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and tell yourself that prison is worse than death. But if you believe in god judging these people, hell will be a better punishment for Westerfield. [/B][/QUOTE] Well, I do believe in God judging them and your right, Hell is a better punishment for murderers. Let God judge them when they die because we, as human beings, have absolutley no right to judge others. GOd is the one who will do the juding, not us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegeta rocker Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Gokents sure is getting fired up, mmmm how fun. But i totally can see where he is coming from. But just let me clarify on this. Look, i know about the death penalty. One of my best friends in jr high was raped and murdered when she went home to her home city. I went through so much anger and fear after that. All I wanted was for them to die. Just to feel for a second what she must have felt when they took her. I dreamed of killing them so many times. I would wake up with my palms bloody from clenching my palms so tight. But you know what? No higher being has given me a right to take their worthless lives. They will get theirs in the end. We all do. As for them being kept in a nice prison with the net. That should be resolved. I hate that prisoners receive better health care then most of America. But then this is just what i believe is right. What will i feel when they find the two guys? I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Heres the thing you gotta realize about me. I do believe in religious ideologies, but in this life, in terms of law making and justice, I will not rely on the assumption that god will take care of the wicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i] [B] First and foremost, I don't feel that the death penalty is state-sanctioned murder. The "You're no better than the murders" argument is popular, but transparently false. Simply put, the state has rights that the private individual does not. In a democracy, those rights are given to the state by the electorate. The execution of a lawfully condemned killer is no more an act of murder than is legal imprisonment an act of kidnapping. [/B][/QUOTE] [color=#507AAC]Nuh uh. That doesn't gel. There is a massive difference between taking a life and simply imprisoning someone in a lawful way. You know very well that there are major differences between some idiot kidnapping someone else and an individual being sentenced to a term in prison.[/color] [quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i][b] The biggest part of that arguement that is lacking is the criminal conscience. You have to ASSUME in your arguement that the criminal is gonna feel bad. [/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]No, I think you're missing the point. Nobody here is saying that the criminal is going to feel bad about what they've done. If they did feel bad about it, they probably wouldn't have committed the murder in the first place. It's not a question of the individual feeling good or bad about what they've done. It's a question of removing their freedom for the rest of their natural life and (hopefully) causing physical and emotional stress on that person in the process as punishment. You certainly won't find me defending a lot of the prisons that allow TV and Internet access, for example. I think a prison should be a prison; [i]no[/i] entertainment of any sort. It should be a house of punishment...not a holiday camp. I'm sure that on that point, you and I will both agree. And this is the sort of place that murderers should be put in. Of course, this would be a maximum security prison. Drug addicts and shoplifters wouldn't go in a similar place, because in both of those cases, there is a chance for counselling and rehabilitation. You obviously aren't going to achieve that same result with a cold blooded killer.[/color] [quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i][b] I dont like leaving things "hanging in the air." I want to know for sure that the criminal has payed. I dont want to have to ask myself if they are unhappy because they are getting that free holiday where you only get to see the family you dont care for once every week. I would rather know that justice has been served and the whole ordeal is over with. Not that the murderer is sitting on the other side of a wall thinking about whats coming on cable tonight. (which, most prisons do have now, including internet.) [/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]Are you reading my own arguments? I'm not ever suggesting that violent criminals should be left in the lap of luxury. Not at all. Prison [i]should[/i] be a harsh and stressful place. If you read my earlier statement, you'll see what I mean.[/color] [quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i][b] James, I know you care, but why leave Westerfield in jail just to read and enjoy what little freedom he still has. All the while, Daniel is gone. And not just gone, but actually stuck in the limbo of being a memory, which (if you had your way) will never be avenged. [/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]Avenged? What is this? Do you live in Saudi Arabia or something? We live in a modern society with laws. "Vengeance" has no place in our criminal justice system. [i]Appropriate punishment[/i], however, does. Don't for one second think that I'm any less angry or horrified at David Westerfield's crime than you are. Just because I don't support a simplistic and barbaric law doesn't mean that I somehow care any less about issues such as this case. You must understand where I'm coming from. You're too busy spinning my arguments (or not reading them) to realize that what I'm saying is [i]far more harsh[/i] than what you are suggesting. I'm suggesting a life of almost intolerable suffering, via a very strict prison system. You can't possibly tell me that an immediate death is worse than a life of almost intolerable suffering. Read that above paragraph carefully. I'm [i]not[/i] in any way suggesting that we give people like Westerfield a slap on the wrist. I'm talking about harsh and direct justice. "Vengenace x 100", if you want to call it that.[/color] [quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i][b] will say this much, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and tell yourself that prison is worse than death. And if you dont believe in god, you should support turtore and then death. Not the limited freedom and civil rights that you get in jail. (That sort of punishment will never be enough to avenge a wrong like what daniel recieved.) [/quote][/b] [color=#507AAC]The thing is, God doesn't take center stage in our justice system. If he did, we'd be no different to Iran or Saudi Arabia. This is why we benefit from having secular laws. In any case, once again, read what I posted above. You'll find that I'm suggesting significantly harsher (and perhaps more constitutional) punishment. If you truly understand where I'm coming from, I don't think you'll disagree with me. Just quit lumping me in with everyone else here; you need to slow down, take a deep breath and actually [i]read and comprehend[/i] various people's arguments. I know it's easy to get riled up and throw every objectionable argument into the same spin basket. This time, try not to. Everyone's opinions are valid. Suggesting that people who disagree with you somehow care [i]less[/i] about Danielle is not only wrong, but it's offensive to those people.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Its not that I mean to "lump" you james. Its just that in this discussion there are 2 groups. Those who support the application of capital punishment and those who dont. I believe you fall into the latter. Although, I do wanna mention, arguing for harsher prison systems is less effective than arguing against or for capital punishment. When we argue for c.p. it puts us into a debate that will end up with a possibility of one of our views being applied. But when you argue for harsher prisons there is no way anything will happen. To many from the left would put even more energy into shooting that sort of thing down, than they would fighting c.p. Fact is, the prison system has to recognize human rights. (according to the rest of america) I also know that the sentence directly above is a broad statment. I also know that you support human rights. But there is no way we will be able to change the prison system. That is why it aggrevates me to see the argument of imprisoning said killer with conditions which are intolerable. It will just never happen. So instead of pursuing reform in an area which has no chance of being reformed, I simply want to defend the application of a punishment system I believe serves justice. I really want to stress this though... I do read your arguments and I do not intend to spin anyones opinion. The simple fact is that when you say things like "lock them up and let them think about what they have done" you are actually saying, do not kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 [color=#507AAC]I never say "lock them up and let them think about what they have done". As I said, I'm for harsher prison sentences/conditions. However, I'm not going to support an ineffective punishment (capital punishment) until that time. Of course, there are many problems with the justice system. The prisons are part of that problem. But the answer isn't to simply throw up our hands and say "Oh well, kill 'em". The answer is to work hard and find a better solution. Too many people are too lazy to work hard...and thus, a better solution never presents itself.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Well, when I said "lock them up and let them think" I wasnt actually refering to you. I was actually at that point "lumping." But, I also wanna mention that the death penalty is not an ineffective punishment. It accomplishes a specific goal. To end the life of a specific criminal. It also accomplishes the goal of ending the possibility of that criminal striking again. (its not like murders dont occur in jail) So the bottom line in this is that we dont see eye to eye. However, I do want to mention what you said to me earlier about reading my/your post (which I know you do) but, I did specifically mention in one of my earlier post that I didnt want to execute them all. Or as you said "oh well, kill 'em all." I went out of my way to make the point that the death penalty is only to be applied in certain situations and even then it must be thought over for a long period of time. Its not like the death sentence is handed down in one day to every criminal or every murderer. The death penalty is reserved for the worst of the worst. Still, like I said before, we just dont see eye to eye on this. I believe in using this punishment as a way to serve justice and end the possibility of further crime. You believe in using prisons as a form of punishment. The most bothering thing to me is the punishment people recieve when going to jail. example. Spencer Perkins... do you know who that is? of course not. He was a 24 year old nobody from williamsburg VA. (my hoometown) (unfortunatly I didnt like him much because he abused one of my friends, his girl friend, and also gave her herpes. sorry for side tracking thought youd want some background. Anyway, Spencer was infront of a party at his house in CW (colonial williamsburg, an area in the town) when he confronted an unwanted guest. A fake thug (maybe hes not fake, which spencer found out first hand) who showed up uninvited. When the two exchanged words and things got heated a fight became imminant. Instead of the old fashion fist fight, it ended immediatly. The thug, shot spencer in the head with a small caliber pistol. Spencer spent 7 days in a coma and then died. Do you know what happend to the shooter? He spent 1 year in JAIL, not prison, and then was sentenced to 10 years probation. I reffer to this as an example of how lax our standards are as a society and how little value we place on victims rights. Spencer was killed, to me, even if the killer spent the rest of his life in jail, it would not do anything to rectify the wrong. It would also not do nearly the amount of damage to the killers life as it did to spencers. (spencer is dead and the killer is not.) So where does this leave me? This leaves me with a sense that the justice system has failed, a sense that there is no value on INNOCENT human life, and that the worst of your (anti c.p. advocates) punishments are still only a minimal punishment compared to the punishment the victims recieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 [color=#507AAC]The problem is that you're implying that anti capital punishment advocates are somehow not in favor of victims' rights. And that's bogus. You're not going to get [i]anyone[/i] here (regardless of their ideology) who believes that a one year term is at all suitable in that situation. Of course it isn't. I'm quite happy and willing to accept the flaws in the justice systems of both the USA and Australia. Nearly every country in the world occasionally has these outrageously light sentences. And every time they occur, I denounce them just as vocally as you. You have to understand that whether or not people agree with capital punishment as an appropriate consequence for criminal behavior, their beliefs on the justice system and the severity of crimes is not necessarily tied up with their views on capital punishment. It's very easy to target someone who doesn't agree with capital punishment and proclaim that they are somehow less tough on violent criminals or that they "care less" about victims. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are many, like myself, who believe that capital punishment is the easy answer and [i]isn't enough[/i]. So, this is why I'm pointing out that it's unfair and wrong to generalize about people whom you disagree with. The fact is, you [i]can't[/i] just throw people into one group. As I said, it's almost offensive to say that those against capital punishment are somehow in favor of a criminal over a victim.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Well the fact is... everyone who has posted in an anti cp way has said that taking a human life is wrong and no one should be allowed to do it. So how can the murderer be stuck up for and "protected" from the same punishment they unjustly handed to an innocent with out mimizing the lose of the victims life. I know that you all do care about the victims, but to me, showing the murderer mercy for something they did which allowed no mercy for the victim is wrong. The real bottom line to me is that we disagree fundamentally on what sort of punishment death is. To me, its the worst punishment you can recieve legally. None of the stuff we have talked about in terms of intollerable jail conditions and what not are applicable because they just arent gonna happen. So to me, death is the worst. Taking the criminals life is taking what they took from atleast one other. And although my personal religious beliefs support an after life, fact is, we dont know, and so I would have to not take that personal opinion into consideration when creating laws. This means that once you take a life, its over, and so, taking the life of a criminal is taking the one gift that is worth more than anything. That to me is a punishment. To me, the punishment should fit the crime. Not underscore the value of the victims life. Underscoring the victims life is what I see when you send a murderer to jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 [color=#507AAC]I still don't think that vengeance is the job of our justice system. Death is [i]not[/i] the worst form of punishment. For [i]you[/i] it might be. But you have to consider what is going through the minds of the criminals we're talking about here. Most of them couldn't care less if they were given an injection. Painless, easy and fast. No more troubles. Just a long sleep. What kind of punishment is that? I would much rather lock them away from society and force them to live without freedom for the rest of their days. Death is the softer alternative, if you really get down to it. And as I've said, most violent criminals either [i]want[/i] to go that way...or they simply don't care because it causes them no pain. It's all very well to talk of injecting bleach and such...but I'll use your own argument; that ain't gonna happen. The laws won't change to allow for that. So we have to work with what currently exists. And what currently exists is a painless lethal injection. What currently exists is a nice cosy slumber. Life in prison is a hell of a lot worse. You should take a tour of a prison sometime; you might change your opinion. ~_^[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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