Thoughts on Iraq

[LostProphet]

Who thinks the war in Iraq is REALLY over Saddams removal? Personally, I dont think it is, rather, its over Oil. An Iraqi friend of mine recently said that 'although he has mistreated most people in his country, this war is still over oil' What do you think?

Later, LP

[Guest Matt]

[color=red][b]It started off over removing saddam, now it's just for oil.[/b][/color]

[Kent]

Ahhh! thats poo.

I would like to point out that currently france and germany are both oppossing war with iraq as well as removal of saddam.

Is it coincedence that those two countrys get a large supply of oil from saddam but havent gotten the full amounts they have already made deals for.

Or what about security counsil member russia, who made a 5 year economic plan with iraq less than 1 year ago.

It is also important to recognize that of all of americas oil supply only 24 percent comes from the middle east. Thats the whole middle east.

the majority of american oil comes from places such as southern america.

Oil may have a part in this wars end, but it isnt the driving force. I need not mention what saddam has done, but Im gonna put out some facts about saddams enviromental record...

currently there is an amount of oil 20x the size of what was spilled by the exxon valdez because of the 5 million barrels dumped into the arabian sea by saddams forces, by saddams order once he learned of his impending defeat in the original gulf war.
Since that time the death rate in kuwait has risen 10% directly because of this.

Do I need to ask if you have seen the oil fires saddams troops lite on their way out of kuwait?

I believe that the oil exscue is just the same old rederhic from people who are anti-bush and anti-war.

Of course, your allowed to disagree... but not with saddams record.

also, this could have, and should have, gone in the iraq debate thread that is already up.
----------------------------------------------

And if this is all about oil, then why aren't we going to war in venezuala?

[Guest QuickSilver]

Personally i thinks we should go to war with Iraq and bomb them all. But hey thats my opinion and i will stick with it until its over. It obviously about Oil which we need very much and they dont seem to need as much.

[Guest cloricus]

[spoiler][color=#808080]"Non-Compliance with UN resolutions"

That is a misconception. They have complied, what America is doing is twisting the leader of the wep inspectors? words.
"They could be doing more" Are the exact words.
Though would you do more if a bunch of nosy people from other countries come in and started looking around.
Iraq should be commended that they haven't stuffed it up yet. At any point they could have wiped out the wep inspectors.

At the moment I believe the Iraq?s when they say they have nothing. I really do. It really looks like America is trying to bully them. Think of what this is doing to their image around the world.
"America just invades when they want something, what a crappy country."
Though history has shown you do that.

Now on to bush using this as a political stunt, like his father...
Have a think about that one. :D

Though I'm still undecided, Saddam is one of the worse oppressive dictators of our time, cheaper petrol. Hmm.
So basically if war does happen (and it doesn't screw up our whole region and lead to more blood shed) I would hope that America didn't install a "friendly" leader to them. I would hope America gave them their country back. That would prove that you did this whole thing on a good intent... Personally I think that would be a good thing.

Most of the world community just believe America is doing this for a fight, control and oil.

These words sum it up...
"The fact that we have found no weapons in Iraq is just as bad, or even worse than in fact finding them."
Colleen Pall.
(Don't know how to spell his name, and some words may be wrong there, I heard it yesterday. But that is a the essence of what he said is there.)

--
This isn't to flame America, just stating a few facts. I could say the parts that I like out of what America is doing, but hay that would ruin my image... :devil:
(Waits for Gokents.)

Cloricus - 0o0o0o0 *Burns some crappy country!* :devil::devil::devil:

--
Added? Hmm news on the radio. JOHN HOWARD YOU STUPID TWIT!
Any way, ?Iraq hasn?t accounted for X thousand comical bombs and it looks like further co-operation is unlikely.? Chief wep inspector.
Mkkay? Btw Johnny is a stupid twit because every thing Bush says he says.. Playing deputy sheriff ey?
(Maybe if he thought before he said it, it would be okay.)
*Grumble* Looks like I'll have to change some of my views. *Grumbles*
[/color][/spoiler]

[liamc2]

[b]Boston Tea Party:[/b]

'That's it you stupid imperialistic English! We've had enough of your empire building! Get out of our country! We're declaring independance!'

[b]Now:[/b]

'Ahem, excuse me for one moment gentlemen, I'm off to buy out a couple of country's leading companies and move them all to China! Who cares if it leaves them all destitute!'



~~~~~~~

*cough*

[Kent]

Ahhh! Cloricus and anyone else here doesnt have to worry or wait for what I have to say.

Atleast not for now.

Im just tired of this sort of crap debates. Bring in james and maybe then we can have some debates. Or maybe someone that really knows what 1441 states. Or maybe even a few that have seen the video footage of the original invasion of kuwaits capital.

Its just no fun to debate with people who dont watch 2 different major news channels everyday. (it becomes obvious who does and doesnt in threads like this)

I mean, do you really think there is anything short of mass genicide on africans that would get jesse jackson to acknowledge what a problem Iraq is... hell no, theres nothing.

With that in mind, I should say that alot of people here are kinda like that.
I dont mean that in the way of personal insult to anyone.
So, just forget Im here until someone comes up with something interesting to say rather than the same old personal opinion and anti-bush/war bias.

(btw, my support for bush is fading fast with the way this admin. didnt kill the popy crop in afghanistan, and yet they will spend my tax dollars on anti-marijuana commercials airing during the superbowl. which were all rediculus.)
------------------------------------
This is in response to the below statment about cnn and I.

I want to make it clear that although I watch a lil cnn, I only do it because its good to have a little fat in your diet. Most of my news comes from fox (because of independents like bill oreilly, and a combo like hannity and colmes) but I also watch abc and nbc, cause its good to let the left bias networks get a word in too.

I also want to restate, its nothing personal, its just a thing of educated debate versus the old personal/biased opinion debates. Dont worry fellas, Im not gonna challenge you all that much for now, it just gets old when your wasting your time speaking to deaf ears.
Plus, I really am sorry if you take this stuff as personal insult. (thats really more for liamc than cloricus. Cloricus doesnt really deserve respect that he, himself will not give.)

[liamc2]

Is it 'no fun' to debate with us simply because we don't watch CNN?

Come now, there [i]must[/i] be another reason.

I have no objections to Bush [size=1](wait, I lie, I have some important objections to Bush but that's beside the point)[/size] nor do I have any objections with any other country's leaders.

All they're trying to do is their job. Nothing more, nothing less. If I was the President of the United States I would have nuked Iraq and then nuked my own country so I could say 'nah nah nah, you can't get me UN!'

Which is basically what Bush is doing right now...

Look I'm sorry gotenks if you have a problem with cloricus or I, but it's not our fault. You keep making statements that really grind right into the centre of my head that I really can't pass up.

You could say it's a creative difference.

Or, if you prefer, I could just resort to immaturity and sum up my final remarks as

'Nyeh!! Who's a silly boy then?'

Yes, I believe I'll go with immaturity, it [i]was[/i] rather a [b]lot[/b] of fun.

[Darkness]

I actually just think that this is all about Bush. Election time isn't all that far off and this is just a ploy to keep him in office. His father pulled the same stunt when he was president. The thing is, Bush doesn't have any strong competition for the presidential race. But, we all know that Bush has a history of bloodlust, so I was already expecting something like this from him.

As for the oil stuff, the main reason prices in America are high is because of the economy in Venezuela. They provide a significant amount of our oil.

[Guest cloricus]

[spoiler][color=gray]Wow... Some one agreed with me about the political stunt.
And remember it failed for his father.

--
Sorry I would write more but I?m off to play d2 lod with my best friend. (User name Cloricus (*) )

Cloricus ? The guy with AIM (User name Cloricus)
[/color][/spoiler]

[Orien_Xel]

I'm with you guys. This war is about OIl. Several American compinaies have already planned, with BUsh, how they are going to divide up the Oil Fields. Why bomb the people we've [b]BEEN[/b] bombing for the past twelve years? What is the poitn? Most of their water cleaning systems are gone, they have virtually no electricity, and we would just kill even more Civilians! What is the point of going to war with a country we [b]KNOW[/b] we can beat? Plus, if we do invade them, Saddam will probably just use any weapons he has to try and take out as many of us with him! And Bush says this is also about 9/11. Give me a break. There were no Iraqis on those planes. In fact, 15 of them were Saudis. Why aren't we going after them? (even though I think we shouldn't go after anybody, its a question for you all to consider...Well, I've had my say. I may post later.

[Kent]

See, I cant help it, I just have to come back.

Cloricus, the gulf war was not a political stunt. Jeez, Im gonna try this again, but go get your **** together.

And for real, where were you guys when clinton was bombing Iraq for the entire time he was in office.

Saddam declared kuwait to be the 19th provence of iraq and invaded the entire soveriegn nation of kuwait with armored divisions and infantry troops.

This is just rediculus.

But it gets entertaining to see how uninformed you guys get to be. I mean, what, do you avoid the news and history programs so easily available to you on purpose.
Just do me a favor and keep on posting, this stuff makes for great conversation with the educated folks at school and well, just about every where other than here.

And for gods sake... where is james!? I know your out there, and I know your intellectual capabilities are well with in the domain of shooting down the sort of crap thats been said by so many in this thread.

I mean, doesnt anyone argue with the facts anymore, or is everything about opinions and conspiracies.lol.

But for real, I gotta stop giving this stuff my time.

If this post aggrevates any of you, just go back to my first one, its got my first thoughts and some added in edited thoughts. Oh my bad, you should also go to my second post, but they are both on the same page.

[Manic Webb]

Rather than say something that will inevidably be put down by gokents because i don't watch enough CNN, I will simply post my opinion that needs no facts to back it up (because it's an opinion) and attach a picture I got from a MAD magazine parody of [i]Batman Returns[/i].

I don't want this war to happen. I don't like Bush, but that doesn't change that fact that I [i]really[/i] don't like Saddam either. I want both men out of their respective governments. I can't think of anything else my government can do at this point except for what they're already doing, so why should I bother whining about it in this thread?

[Kent]

You know, endymion, I like the fact that your open and honest.

But I do want to mention that we (the u.s.a.) gave saddam bochalizm, and anthrax because of their fears of being attacked by iran.

However, Iraq used seron nerve gas to kill the 5,000 kurds (his own people in hallabjah) and 25,000 iranians which were just the tip of the iceberg in the 8 years war between iran and iraq.

Plus, the fellas at mad aren't exactly historians.

I do want to mention though, I really do respect your post. You have got more balls and sense than alot of people on the boards.

Plus I like the fact that you were willing to put aside "whining" and just say what you were thinking, and end it at that. I commend you.

[Guest cloricus]

[spoiler][color=#808080]0o0o0o - Gokents... You haven't been watching your CNN have you?
The gulf war was a political stunt. There were several documentary?s, all commissioned by CNN and the History channel and the Discovery channel.
They all went in to a lot of detail, and it was quiet plain to see that it was a political stunt, among other things.

Hey if you?re going to play the genocide card, lets review America's war crimes history.
Hmm Korea.
"Open fire on ANY one that enters the battle field, yes that includes women and children."
"Wipe out that group of children"
Women having to kill their babies to stop them crying so the American troops wouldn't know where to fire.
Many more quotes and stories that I can pull up. All from commanding officers, people who where there and even the pentagon. Hmm next.
Afghanistan.
Now I didn't see this doco. *Kicks self* Though from what I heard America was either part of or stood by as 5,000 Afghanis were shot dead.

Shall I go on? (That would involve more time to find some more. :F So don't ask okay?)

So don't play the "oh they killed innocent people". America is guilty of that to.

As for Gokents, common, can't you stand up for yourself with "facts" instead of saying every one else is stupid because they don?t watch America bias TV?

--
As for the debate, if America want?s to go in no matter what any one thinks they should have done it ages ago, instead of waiting. Now Saddams forces are ready for a fight.
They wouldn?t care if you took them down, as long as they got as many American?s as they could.

Cloricus - The guy who's about to be cained by Jamez...[/color][/spoiler]

[liamc2]

Well seeing as we're bringing up gory facts.

Lets bring up what I watched on an SBS documentary.

Letsee now...

Remember all those Taliban prisoners that were caught a while back?

There was a documentary on that on the SBS.

A group of reporters went with two CIA agents who were there to investigate the however many prisoners there were (I think it was in the thousands...) to gather intelligence for America and find out the movement plans of the Taliban.

With them went a considerable amount of American Marines and Northern Alliance troops.

The two CIA agents went around their business and divided all the Taliban POW's into groups. Many who were 'freed' were packed into cargo containers on the backs of flatbed trucks with Marines and a indigenous driver.

Some containers went over the border and to freedom like they were supposed to.

Some didn't.

Those that didn't were driven out into the desert. The Marines ordered the driver to get out of the truck and run with his ears covered.

The Marines, when they thought he was far enough away to not witness what they were going to do, opened fire on the cargo containers.

Lets recap, there's a bunch of Taliban soldiers, possibly recruited forcibly, locked into a massive metal shipping crate with barely enough room to move, let alone breathe. These men were promised freedom.

What happens to them?

A group of Marines empty clip after clip of ammunition into the container.

There were so many holes in the container when they had finished that blood oozed out into the tray of the flatbed truck.

The driver was then ordered to come back and dump the container even further into the desert where they were burned.

There's a helluva lot more in that documentary that I haven't heeded to mention.

I think it's about time someone sang 'America the Beautiful' don't you?

~~~~~~~

Now, before someone accuses my country of not being perfect, I'll agree with them.

Australia has done some goddamn awful things.

For instance, in Vietnam POW's were rolled up in barbed wire and loaded into Chinook helicopters.

Soon as they reached a certain height, these POW's were then dumped.

A fine trail of blood followed their rapid descent. By the time they left the helicopter they were so delirious with blood loss most of them didn't realise they were falling when they hit the ground.

[Guest cloricus]

[spoiler][color=#808080]Okay, who voted "What's an Iraq...?
For any one that doesn't know -
Iraq - ir-ack
[i]n[/i].
1) Mortal enemy of the bush clan,
2) A place with black stuff that gives you green stuff comes from,
3) It also courses rampant propaganda by other countries.(See CNN)

-
On another note - did any one see South Park 612 A ladder to Heaven.
That was so funny, it payed out Saddam and America![/color][/spoiler]

[Kent]

Im sorry but that crap liamc wrote is bull ****.

There is no way that can happen in the first world press without proper acknoledgment.

This kind of stuff is what makes all of your arguments no matter how good, bull.

If two airforce officers are put on trial for dropping ordinance on canadians, all by accident, then these marines would face a court mashall just the same. There is a chain of command and that crap would have never happend. Frankly, your full of ****. I tried giving you credit for being resonable, but your not, your a blatant liar. Flat out.

I have al jeezera on my dish and I watch it all the time, and that was never mentioned. If your as smart as your acting youll know what al jeezera is and youll know what they would give to air a story like that.

I also wanna stress, cnn is a liberal network with liberal agendas.
I dont like biased network news.

Bottom line at this point is simple... you have no respect from me in any debate from this day forth.
----------------------------------
as for you cloricus,

I have plenty of time on my hands, how do you think I see so much about current events?

You are also full of it. You obviously dont know or havent seen saddam role his army into kuwait, which did air on history channel.

I really dont even know what to say to you.

Korea, genocide, your nothing. You people are the worst fools Ive ever dealt with on the boards. Im ashamed that you've even gotten to me and made me mad. Oh well.

I want to make it clear though, say what ever you want, but your lies woulnt cut it in the real world. What are you? I mean really, throwing out this bogus conspiricy crap with what you call "facts" doesnt make it true. What makes things like this true is the worlds acknowledgment. None of which your facts have ever had.

This is just rediculus.

Fact is, I dont even need to reply because you people have done my argument for me. I couldnt have made you look worse with a thousand word essay citing every single fact I would like to mention.

Whats the point of debates like this when there is no third party to verify anything or for that matter shoot down lies. I really am giving up on this, but not because of some trash talking reason Im sure youll throw out, but simply because there is no point in debating with the likes of you 2.

[liamc2]

My apologies. Excuse me while I go and have my head checked for daring to watch SBS.

I'm sorry Lord Gokents for ever, ever, daring to use any facts that haven't originated from the great and glorious god that is the United States.

[quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i]

[b]There is no way that can happen in the first world press without proper acknoledgment.
[/b][/quote]

I never assumed that the first world press would go out and kill innocents. Oh deary me, and I thought the Marines in question were evil.

[quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i]

[b]Frankly, your full of ****. I tried giving you credit for being resonable, but your not, your a blatant liar. Flat out.
[/b][/quote]

Actually I'm not full of little stars, I'm full of dense objects such as organs, muscles and veins. Also I believe I have a soul somewhere.

[quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i]
[b]Bottom line at this point is simple... you have no respect from me in any debate from this day forth.[/b][/quote]

I am actually sad to hear that. I would not believe you to be one to childlishly withdraw your respect when you are confronted with someone who has honestly brought disturbing news to your doorstep. Disturbing news that rocks the world you so carefully built.

Face the facts gokents, not everyone in the world, yes not even the saintly Marines, are decent god fearing people.

That is just a fact of life and I hate to be the first one to divulge it to you.

[quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i]
[b]I want to make it clear though, say what ever you want, but your lies woulnt cut it in the real world. What are you? I mean really, throwing out this bogus conspiricy crap with what you call "facts" doesnt make it true. What makes things like this true is the worlds acknowledgment. None of which your facts have ever had.[/b][/quote]

My lies wouldn't cut it? I'm sorry. You're right. Ask anyone I know how I lie and I bet you all of them will say I'm pathetic at it. Yet another fact of life. I'm horrible at lying and when it comes to topics as important as these, I never, ever, flirt with the truth or twist it.

[quote][i]Originally posted by gokents[/i]
[b]You people are the worst fools Ive ever dealt with on the boards. Im ashamed that you've even gotten to me and made me mad. Oh well.
[/b][/quote]

I'm ashamed too. I thought my foolin' was darn tootin' good.

*dons his jesters hat and resumes his life as a fool*

[Guest cloricus]

[spoiler][color=#808080]I would like to post a flame here but then I'd be acting just like Gokents.
I would just like to point out three things.

1) I have not lied once in this debate, these are my feelings, opinions and facts that have come from extremely reliable sources.

2) Liam is all the time I have known him has lied twice.

3) "Saintly Marines" Liam I think you should take that back, the marines that were involved in the Korea incident were under orders "do it or we'll do it to you" so they cannot be blamed for human instincts and actions. Many of them are mentally scared to this day, some to the point of suicide.

Thank you.
Cloricus.
[/color][/spoiler]

[Kent]

I formally want to resign from this.

It is obvious that there is no chance for me.

For one, I can not put forth the creative effort to use "facts" like what you two have.

But more important, where did Iraq end up in this.

Has it come up once in any of your America bashing?

I hate to say it, but all events in Americas history that are known in the world press are presented to the American public.

There is just no point to this any more. I know you two will be happy with this, so I am happy knowing that.

But I am saddend by knowing what goes around in the rest of the world. I have no intention of debating something like this. It would be like fighting the ocean. How can I debate ideas that are not documented?

How could I even begin to address ideas like what you two have suggested?
There truly is no point to continuing this.
Just honestly face yourselves when it comes time to say these things to people in person and not just over the net.

[liamc2]

Iraq ends up as a cautionary tale.

America is fighting Iraq to gain oil and profits. Australia is jumping in on it to save face because if they didn't, lets face it, what'd we be fighting about?

'Australia are sooooo a bunch of cowards, I mean they're not even fighting Iraq'

England is fighting too because of Iraqs position as well as the fact its daughter country, Australia, is fighting aswell. Probably because of the massacare they caused at Gallpoli

My facts support my view that America, Australia and England should avoid fighting Iraq at all costs.

First of all, the war against the Taliban really, really stuffed up. The Northern Alliance ran riot and slew innocents with the weapons and help America and Australia provided.

Now Iraq pops up. Iraq,the country that has so far given in to the UN. Iraq, the country that has remained quiet all these years until now.

John Howard is doing nothing less than his job. So is George Bush, so is Tony Blair.

Hell sure they can go send the troops over, but they're not doing it in the name of the UN.

They're doing it in the name of the big ole' US of A and the potential billions in oil profits.

I'm sorry gokents. That's just the way it is.

Also I apologise to anyone else reading that felt I was inflating my own country while deflating America. I really did not mean to throw it across the board like that.

I do apologise.

[marbar]

I just want to know the two times that Liam has lied.

But seriously Liam, knowing you I strongly doubt that you lied about that marines thing, but I'm interested,

How did the press find out?

Did a marine leak it to them? ('cause the driver couldn't vouch beyond a doubt for what happened)

How did this story survive long enough to be broadcast on national tv?
Surely, if the marines (or their officers) would do such a thing, they wouldn't let it get out.

And, was there any evidence of this happening?

[b]Notice Gokents that I'm asking questions instead of just denying it flat out. Hopefully this will stop Liam ripping in to me. Something that he seems all to capable and willing to do.[/b][i]*ponders for a moment*[/i] [b]Liam, join debating!!![/b]

I believe that no matter the reason/s (which I believe aren't all that honourable), war with Iraq is a no-no. For Australia at least. Chances are Saddam's going to attack USA just because they keep bugging him. Seriously Bush, deal with your own country, you're not the world's protector.

Sorry that this isn't a what you would call an intelligent post, but it gets the job done.

[enigma]

[COLOR=blue][I]Geez, I think this thread was just to show people's opinion of this war, not actually start another war between several people here.

Anyway, I won't argue about anything, I'll just post my opinion of this.

Regardless of the reasons behind the war, if Bush wants to attack Saddam, then Bush and Bush alone should fight, not bring the world into the mess that he's made. He began the ordeal, so it should be up to him to fix it. Australia, England and all the other countries should keep their noses out of other countries affairs and not cause even more problems. This is America's war, let America fight it.[/COLOR][/I]

[TheShinje]

Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator who has invaded Kuwait, and destroyed their oil fields, who rigs elections for the sake of winning (how in the hell else do you get a unanimous vote in a country as diverse as that?)

He must be dealt with, he is a danger to the world. If Saddam is allowed to carry biological and chemical weapons, he will use them against israel and other nations who oppose him.

Having said that, I also believe that there is a factor of oil involved, but it is not the only reason. Yes, the states would love to have that oil, but can you see the necessity for unseating a dictator like Saddam, who could be akin to hitler of the east?

There are numerous factors pending the now inevitable war in Iraq, I do believe that Iraq has complied with weapons inspectors, so sorry bush, no smoking gun there. However, wether he is violating the U.N resolutions or not, he is a snake poised to strike.

he is also very deceptive, and, while Iraq's weapons have not been found, so havent the mobile weapons laboratories, where he could possibly harbour some weapons on the move.

oh yeah, I say to Cloricus Gokents and Liamc, lay off each other 'aight? You are both right in the way that this war factors both arguements.

lighten up... I'm going to watch [strike]CNN[/strike] I mean CN.

[size=1] and lighten up your text cloricus, it's a little har to read o_O just a suggestion heh. [/size]