Guest cloricus Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [spoiler][color=pink]Hows this? ...lol hehehehe I must remind Gokents that this debate is all in fun and I hope it says that way. (AHEM Liam... :P *privet joke*) People you really shouldn't liken people to Hitler, that was a fluke. (I should know, that was what like my third SOSE semester on it. *Shudders* lol. Plus my own research.) Hitler really was bad, though it was not all his fault. (And I blame Canada... Sorry to much south park movie for one day.) -- Anyway there is one thing, what would the world think that if America went in had their war, had heavy casualties, and "liberated" the country. What would happen if after all of that if they found no weapons? What would you do? Especially if you were American and lost a son/daughter or close friend? I don?t mean to throw this off into another direction, but I wouldn?t mind knowing peoples answers. [/color][/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [color=red] If this thread remains as argumenitive as it has been, it shall be closed. :Glares at GoKents and Liam: Anyways, it seems we will be going to war with them. It edges nearer... I'm not really going to shove my opinion out, since I've already done it many times, but let's just say... This is getting very, very, [i]very[/i], rediculous.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 OK, Im sorry. Im sorry for getting upset, but that is about all I have to say on this anymore. All of my reasons are posted throughout the various post on this in this thread and the other Iraq thread. Dont worry about any sort of closures, this will be the end of the bickering. Although I will say, if something like that happend with the marines, it would have come out, especially if it aired on national television in austraillia on the special broadcast service. Something like that doesnt just slide by undetected, and plus, since it was allegedly aired on the sbs, that would mean it did come out. So then its just a question of whether it happend or not... and that stuff I will leave you all to decide. I think Im gonna try and make it back to my original reasons for joining the otaku boards - anime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostProphet Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 OK, its you're fault if this gets closed, gokents As for CNN, its is a propaganda machine DURING WARTIME. During peacetime, its a very reliable news source. If anyone has seen Live From Baghdad on HBO, thats a pretty good recollection of it, according to my dad. He was in the Air Force at the time, and recieved updates constantly. If you're arguing that its a propaganda machine...you're only half right. The Iraq definition...thats good...but odd. Personally, I'll probably be based over there within a year or so, so if I can, I'll tell you all how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gelgoog Pilot Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 AS far as i'm concerned America wants the OIl secure for the future and i think Bush has a hidden agenda........just think he wants to finish what his father started as well as keep the fact that the U.S. econimy is crap right now. Bush wants to be remembered for fighting wars instead of ecenomic ruin all in all he's a loser who needs to face the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B][spoiler][color=pink]What would you do? Especially if you were American and lost a son/daughter or close friend?[/color][/spoiler] [/B][/QUOTE] [color=crimson]It would be our own fault for electing an official into office that did that- so what could we do? Thats the problem with Democracy- It strives to much to be the perfect system of government, but it falls short consistantly. People might riot, give CNN those special "Look at me- Pity me" interveiws, or just sit back and stare blankly- but in the end, from a polotical point of veiw, it would be our own faults for electing the current-president into office. Saddam isnt as good as Hitler, haha. Hitler was apart of THE third Reich, and almost won- WW2 was alot of potluck for the Allies [Russia's unsually cold winter, just to state an example.] Saddam just sits and broods, gives the occasional speech he didnt write, and wears that silly hat. Lol.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Do you honestly think our 'first world press' doesn't have it's own leanings? ESPECIALLY considering we're currently boardering on a wartime situation. If you really think that, perhaps you should rethink your views and apply more that hopes and dreams to them. As for that report Liam gave, I'd be willing to go as far as to believe it has it's base in truth. However, people do often exaggerate, even in the modern-day press. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mnemolth Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Opinions are a dime a dozen. Hence the proliferation of message boards on the Internet. We have so many means of communication and yet so very few relevant things to say to one another. Its a source of great sadness for me. But I digress... :D I saw the documentary of which Liam speaks, though I can't testify to his state of mind when he saw it because I think there are several errors in his post. ;) First, let's just get one thing straight. No one ever accused any US soldiers of spraying the containers with bullets. Basically what happened was that originally the Taliban forces that surrendered General Dostum (one of the vicious warlords in Afghanistan, and a key ally of the US)) were taken to a prison by open lorries. But latter on, for whatever reason, the bulk of the thousands of prisoners were crammed into closed shipping containers. Some of them started complaining they couldn't breathe and were suffocating. So Dostum's men shot into the containers to make some holes. In the process they hit and killed some prisoners. The prison they were all going to was overcrowded and it has been said that prisoners, esp the sick and injured, were taken out to the desert and shot. There is a mass grave there. No body knows how many bodies are there but we're not talking about a handful here, we're talking about hundreds to thousands depending on who you ask. When the Pentagon was first asked about this incident, the response was that US forces were no where near the place. Its a different story now. What is being argued now is that they might have been in the area but did not know about the massacre at the time. And it was not the 'Marines' as such that were involved, it was the 'Special Forces'. I'm sure there is some kind of difference there, but it doesn't really matter, they are both US troops. The important question is not that US soldiers killed anyone, it is that they were in control, knew what was happening and did not do enough to stop it. There are a few things to consider here. One is whether they were there and knew what was happening. But that doesn't make it a war crime. What would indict the US in an international criminal court would be if it could be establish that they had control over the Northern Alliance forces, that is they had SOME kind of auhtority over them. They don't need to be in command, just in control of the situation. If that case can be made, then those troops can very well be guilty of War Crimes. Now you understand why the US was not so keen about the International Criminal Court. This story came out in dribs and drabs in 2002. The story became stronger at the end of 2002. There is no doubt that something terrible happened in the desert. There is no doubt that there is a mass grave there (you can spot it even by using satellite photos). The only question that remains are the number of the dead, how they died, and who is responsible. The US has been accused NOT because US soldiers shot the Taliban, NOR because US commanders ordered the Northern Alliance troops to shoot them, but because the US troops were there, they knew what was happening, they were in control, and they did nothing to stop it. This was a long and dangerous investigation. Some of the people interviewed, who said they would testify at any war crimes hearing have been murdered, and the researcher for the story was bashed within an inch of his life. There are plenty of places online you can look at for this story. One of them is here. [URL=http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,791946,00.html]http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,791946,00.html[/URL] I would go into the whole Iraq thing but frankly I'm quite sick of it at the moment. People don't really care, so what's the point? (in making a post that is) I made this post because things were getting out of hand. On both sides. Mindless American bashing I feel only undermines legitimate criticism. The messages of those who are passionately critical against US foreign policy, and in particular, the hawks of the Bush Administration, are lost in the subsequent fog of confusion. On the other hand, mindless patriotism blind us to our humanity. You can only change so much with guns. The hearts and minds of the world have to follow, or else the war is already lost. Compassion is not about being timid or weak or niave or romantic. It is essential to our survival. It is practical. No man is an island. And no nation, especially in this globalised age, can afford to ignore the rest of the world for too long. Not even the most powerful country on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlasherMXer Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 America Wants the Oil , But Bush and Saddam should fight it out UFC style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 This is off subject of Iraq, but did anyone see what happend in ivory coast? Amazingly it was tons and tons of natives protesting waving signs asking for the u.s. to come get involved. There were signs saying stuff about americans being welcome and chirac being a criminal. I dont know much at all about what the situation there is, but for now its looking ugly, cause any time a third world country is asking for u.s. help... things are really bad. Sorry for the off subject notice of worldly affairs but I thought you guys might be interested to here that. I also want to mention that the story we've been talking about with the containers... I had learned of that right after it happend. The mass graves... the suffacation. All of it, but I do want to point out that when you take that story and say it over again so that it reads with marines doing the shooting to kill and purposely going into the desert to kill these prisoners... well, that changes things to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 This is the scariest thing I have ever seen in my life on an international level. Thats right, Im talking about the hard evidence against Iraq presented by Colin Powell. I am watching the address now and its is literally making my stomach sick. The evidence of chemical weapon production, hiding and testing is overwhelming. Video footage of practice runs to deploy anatrax using modified Mirage fighter jets. Photographic evidence of chemical weapons facilities with semi-truck mounted mobile labs and de-contamination labs on semi-trucks were presented. (Dated may 2002) There were photos presented which showed where saddam had the crust of the earth removed from sites used to host weapons labs as to remove any possible evidence that may have been present after years of testing and development. Records of Iraqs own admissions towards what they had produced as of 1999, yet nothing to indincate that anything has or had been destroyed. Most disturbing was the audio recordings of Iraqi military officers coordinating the movment and hiding of nerve agents. Defected Iraqi citizens testifying to the testing of these weapons on human subjects strapped to beds were used as a referrence to saddams violent nature. (along with the already known use of these weapons during the 8 years war.) This truely is undeniable evidence and only the most skeptical of critics will try and argue this evidence. This infact has frightened me to the point that I do not have the same support for military action (which I now know must be taken) becuase of my worries that these weapons will be used in the air and water supplies of Iraq as well as any of the previously attacked countries in the reigon. Nuclear weapons still have not been obtained, but the "ingrediants" to create these weapons have been clandestinly seized as well as recorded with photographic evidence. This is the nail in the coffin for saddam, but the question is... will these weapons (which are now proven to be in saddams possesion) be the nail in the coffins of hundreds, thousands or even millions of innocents whom may be involved in the forcful dis-armament of Iraq? Now Sec. of State Powell is addressing the terrorist elements hosted in Iraq. Names of the directors of terrorist camps that specifically teach how to produce poisons. Terrorist camps producing ryson (sp?) are caught on photograph and the movement records of extremist terrorist affiliated with Al-Queda are being presented. Also, do you think this is the "dental visit" that proves the U.N. to be a toothless tiger? What do you guys think? and please, I would really like it if the kiddies on the boards that didnt bother watching the address would refrain from the usual skeptical rants of doubt. I want all the opinions possible, but lets keep this on a serious and educated level of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 heh.. I tried not to be judgemental, but I was always mildly skeptocal (so I didn't comment before now) but that was before there was actual evidence being shown. I really don't know how to begin to comment. I'm half in support of a "war", but less of a war against Saddam, and more of a prevention of him hurting more people. Ultimately, as long as you (not you personally but anyone in the war) do only what you have to, and don't kill for the sake of it.. I just don't think talking will work in this case.. heh.. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostProphet Posted February 5, 2003 Author Share Posted February 5, 2003 Can someone update me on the address? I'm at school, and unable to see it. Its important to me b/c I'm going into the military and it may affect my future Later, LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Webb Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 *makes sure not to make any sarcastic jokes this time, despite how many come to mind* I believe the camel's back has been broken. While there's no denying this evidence, I have to wonder why it wasn't brought forth earlier. I don't mean to criticize, I'm just curious. There wouldn't be half as many skeptics (and perhaps protests) as there are now if they would've just shown the public this footage a month or two ago. It looks like we have a war on our hands. What made me think I'd be the only generation to go without seeing a war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Macaiodh Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 [color=darkblue]i don't see this turning out well. desert storm was one thing, but it didn't much effect us here on stateside except for worry & a raise in the price of oil. combine that w/ the rallying of the UN & the immediate threat of the taliban & other terrorist organizations & dictatorships... i don't think this is going to be just another small-scale war. i don't know about the evidence. i haven't seen it for myself. i don't know what to believe about what comes out of the mouth of our beloved administration, but it's clear that they're not going to sit idle. the specifics really aren't that important to me... they're going to do what they want regardless of what i think. i'm neither for nor against this war. the disturbing (or exhilerating, depending on who you are) thing is that i don't see our world lasting much longer. true, war has waged since humans were strong enough to pick up sticks or use their fists, but only in the last century--out of god-knows how many eons of evolution--have we had the technology to destroy the planet. i don't even know why the US even has nuclear weapons. if we launched them at iraq, or whoever, we'd basically be signing the planet's death warrant. we can't expect power-crazy dictators like sadaam to think rationally. his mindset is: "if i go down, they're all going w/ me!" it makes me wonder how all this crazy business got started anyway. did he just randomly begin hating us, or did we interfere w/ something he was doing? something tells me it was the latter. (i was pretty young during desert storm & can't recall, but i'm sure not going to research it now. the damage has been done.) for awhile now, i've wished the US would just mind their own damn business. who appointed us guardian of the world, anyway? sometimes i think the US likes to swoop in just so the administration can brag to the american people & the rest of the world about what noble humanitarians we are. we stick our noses into everything, & it seems we're always in the midst of some horrible political tension, or worse, on the brink of war. frankly, i'm getting quite tired of this type of arrogance. don't we have enough problems here, over in stateside? maybe the powers that be need to concentrate on fixing what's wrong w/ us before making our lives even worse with all this crap. their first duty should be to the citizens, in my opinion. but, like i said, the damage has been done, so if we have to defend ourselves b/c of it, then fine. bah. the US is like a bratty kid who thinks he knows everything & has way too much power. like that guy enrique or whatever who got killed on the first episode of kingpin. you know, the one who was taking over the organization from his fugitive father & didn't know what the hell he was doing. i know i'll probably get blasted for all that, but it's the way i feel, & i'm not going to change my mind. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conpiracymonki Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 [b][size=1] I flicked over to Sky News for a random check just about when it was showing Colin Powell talking. This is really freaking me out though. I guess it just hit me how serious this was as the evidence started to roll in..[/b][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shy Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B]It looks like we have a war on our hands. What made me think I'd be the only generation to go without seeing a war?[/B][/QUOTE] [size=1]Well, there was the Persian Gulf War, way back in the early 1990's. But I don't know how old you are, so maybe you don't really remember it... I don't know the entire situation right now. I'm browsing through Colin Powell's speech to the UN, and it appears that the US is finally letting the world know we have always had such a firm stance against Iraq. I have always felt that another war with Iraq was neccessary, and I'm in favor of the US using it's power and influence to secure freedom throughout the world. Others may consider this "bullying", but it is not nearly as bad as what Sadaam has been doing to the Kurdish people for decades. If the US can disarm and destroy his weapons of mass desctruction, then we should do it -- no matter what to cost is to our economy. In the past we have made a mess of the Middle East, but I feel the time is right to completely reform the area, and hopefully solve some of the major problems surrounding it. -Shy[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentdeath Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 ok now iraq has chemical weapons? holy @#%$! i have to tell nat, i'm friekin out now.they may have saw the telecast and are sending over bad news right now.this is serious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Well, since so many here have shown an opinion that seems to not know exactly what went on in the past... I would like to explain just for a second. (well for me that means about a paragragh or two) Basically, the shah of Iran was the victim of a hostile take over by the iatola and the shah was exiled. After that, the iatola supported the capture and holding of american hostages siezed by terrorist who captured the hostages from american embassies. That said, America and Iraq already had relations, so when Iraq made a plea for the worlds help during the 8 years war, (between iran and iraq) America sided with iraq. (infact we gave saddam bochalism and the aims-iowa strain of anthrax because of his plea for defensive capabilities against possible Iranian gas attacks, contrary to what people think, saddam used niether to kill the kurds and actually used seron nerve gas during that war.) So at that point we were friends with Iraq and allies to some extent. Then in 1990 Saddam claimed that the sovereign nation of kuwait was actually the 19th provence of Iraq. That in mind, Saddam invaded with everything, tanks, infantry, helicopters and what was at the time, the 4th largest army in the world. This was not acceptable, hostilities such as these have been wrong no matter where. America stepped in and began operation desert shield. After a few months the operation was changed from a simple aid of defense to a full on offensive attack with the intention of forcing Saddam to with draw all troops and cease all hostilities towards kuwait. At that point the op was changed to the name desert storm. This was when Saddam openly began to show his hate for america and Americas first hostile interaction with Iraq. After Saddam was defeated, he was offered the oppurtunity to stay in power if he would sign surrender papers and agree to u.n. resolutions that would limit his military power. (hence all the u.n. resolutions we are talking about today like #1441) That is the background between the two of us. (the U.S. and Iraq) In my opinion we need to deal with this problem now. The fact is that Saddam is just as dangerous as we all know, but if he does succed in his pursuit of nukes, America might not be the first to get it, but Isreal will cease to be. (with that in mind, chemical weapons just might go into use also) I do think that america is playing the role of the worlds police, but the truth is, someone needs to do that and no one else is willing to. And I do believe there is a difference between rouge nations such as Iraq and Noth Korea having nuclear weapons and nations like Britian and America. But that is a discussion which does not apply to the crimes of Iraq. I do suggest that everyone goes and checks out the evidence for themselves before they make any conclusions. ------------------ Ive just found out that the entire address given by sec. Powell is transcribed online at foxnews.com, If you will trust them I would say its a good place to get a start on what happend. I personally trust them, and for that matter, most of the "first world media." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Well, Saddam's sanity left unquestioned, doesn't the US also have weapons of mass-destruction? Granted, the world as a whole [i]shouldn't[/i] have to fear whether the States will use their WOMD for terrorism, but it seems kind of odd that we're getting ready to go disarm Saddam when we ourselves own enough nuclear power to destroy the planet many times over. I support a war against Saddam...but only if Bush intends to fight to win. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabmow Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I think we are in the current situation with Iraq to uphold the UN resolutions. The UN made the sanctions against Iraq. Iraq has not complied. Everyday that Saddam thumbs his nose at the world community the UN loses faces and their decrees become as effective as the League of Nations. Adolf Saddam and Tojo Il both are trying to exert their power at the expence of the world community. Had Germany and Japan both been detered in the 1930's a major War may have been diverted. Can we really afford to have the Saddam Reich and the North Korean Co-prosparity Sphere ? If the UN is to have any teeth the it should back its resolutions not find ways to back out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juu Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 [color=ff00cc] [size=1]I really think going to war is a mistake... I still don't understand [i]why[/i] we're even going to war in the first place. I still haven't really caught on to that 100%. We're having a 'Discussion on War' day tomorrow. The whole San Francisco District has to have all students allowed to participate, participate in a discussion with their classmates for two hours on the war. Whether we think it's wrong, or right. I'm looking forward to this... My teacher's totally against it, as well as 99% of my class. I think the war isn't going to gain us anything, or make anything better. So far, we're paying the soldiers a million dollars a day just to feed them when they're not even moving yet.[/color] [/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bra Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I really hope we don't go to war. I have many friends that will go if we do call war on them, not to mention my family members that will be going... I know that this war is a mistake and it will only cause unneeded death and injuries. If it has to be like this though, I guess that it has to be that way. The president and congress are making a VERY big mistake for doing it if we do go though... That is my opinions on this little matter of going to war or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 Juuthena, I am only going to try and, well, I dont know what to say. I guess I will start with what I feel the most important in your statment. The payment of the soldiers... something so trivial in the game your discussing. War, your ask the question of whether or not it is right to go with no regard to the people you are saving... none the less what you will pay the soldiers who you will send. The pay should be no object,and if anyone in america's society deserves millions of dollars a year to do their job, its not a professional sports player, its the soldiers who will give his life for the life of another. I truly could never begin to express how disturbing it is to see that, and how aggrevating it is to see that from san fransico when I am at a point in my life where everyone tells me not to stereo-type the people from that area. When asking if it is right to go to war, you must not ask what is to gain for us as Americans or as an individual; we must ask what is to gain for the people of Iraq and the surrounding area. To ignore the human rights in Iraq would alone be hypocritical of any person who ask for peace. Saddam is not a threat to America alone but also Isreal, Kuwait, Qutar, and threw the first strike of the 8 years war, which all of whom he has attacked within the last 20 years. I would personally like to ask if you even watched the Address to the U.N. that Seceratary of State Powell made presenting audio and video footage of Iraqi military officers communicating the directions to "evacuate" "nerve agents". 8500 litres of anthrax were ordered by Saddam and this was presented. Nothing has been accounted for. Nor has anything been presented to show evidence of its destruction. A 2nd guard corp. officer of the Iraqi army speaking with a general directly under Saddam was focusing on "wireless" and stopping speaking of all nerve agents. I dont know what your going to say tomorrow, I dont think it will make a difference during this conflict, but in 20 years, who knows... you may be a player in the politics of this country, and that is what frightens me. Being against war in general is fine, but any anime fan who has watched the cell games has seen fist hand the idea of there being people "who words alone will not reach." Please dont argue for peace while ignoring the women raped by Saddams secret police, or the children who witnessed their parents being blinded by the most cruel of ways. These things happen, but I fear that "liberal" teachers of the west coast choose to ignore that element of this conflict, and that shows me selfishness more than benevolence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juu Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 [color=ff00cc] [size=1]Erm... well, my point in the 'paying soldiers' part, was about exactly how much this was going to effect our economy... He's planning to drop hundreds of bombs on Iraq, and each one costs about a million dollars to send. [/color] [/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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