Thoughts on Iraq

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]Juu, in fact it is a damn good thing for your(American) economy. Going to war "right now" would be the best thing for your country. Sad but true.

Gokents, go suck a flag...
[quote]we must ask what is to gain for the people of Iraq and the surrounding area.[/quote]
Hmm America controlling oil, massive unrest, surrounding countries going to war. At the moment that area is stable (just) and I think America is underestimating the possible ripple through affect.
This is a brutal thing to say but I'd rather some women were rapped than a regional war is started and since our priminister is bushes brown nose we would be drawn into that on a large scale. Sorry but pure numbers wins out in that situation.

[quote]I would personally like to ask if you even watched the Address to the U.N. that Secretary of State Powell made presenting audio and video footage of Iraqi military officers communicating the directions to "evacuate" "nerve agents". [/quote]
Not live no, I go to school so I can "get a job" and not sit on my arse watching cnn all the time. Though I watched a delayed stream.

These two quotes/opinions sum it up. (And I believe them)
[quote]Iraqi officials dismissed Powell's case as a collection of "stunts" and "special effects" that relied on "unknown sources" and was aimed at undermining the work of the inspectors.[/quote]
As some one stated "Any third rate intelligence agency can fake these." I would not put this past America.

[quote]"What we heard today was for the general public and mainly the uninformed, in order to influence their opinion and to commit aggression on Iraq," said Lt General Amir al-Saadi, an adviser to Saddam. Al-Saadi, who spoke in Baghdad, was personally vilified in Powell's speech for deceiving inspectors.[/quote]
Exactly. Stupid/uninformed people make up a large percentage and could give bush the support he needs.

Also for those who don't know why America isn't going to war without the un just yet.
[quote]Winning UN approval would mean the United States could share the costs of war and rebuilding Iraq and would be operating with the support of the international community.[/quote]

And the one simple task that America has not done that would put this whole thing right.
"Find a weapon."
Simple...
And old shells that America sold to Iraq how ever many years ago that are by now useless do not count.

[Sources for quotes aap, websites that information was taken from are obtainable by searching google.com or pming me.]
This post is fact/opinion, not a flame... *Cough take note Gokents Cough*[/color]

[Kent]

Its refreshing to see post like that of cloricus compared to Juuthena.

I find it great to hear debates leading to the exact words of Iraqi officials talking about special effects and stunts, as well as personal insult... sitting on my "arse." I mean that is sweet.

I guess what makes me wonder is the difference between juu, cloricus, and myself.

I dont really think it would be mature of me to elaborate on cloricus. Instead I focus on the difference I feel between someone such as him and Juu.

I find that when Juu speaks, there is an open, honest and caring heart there.

Sometimes its nice to see why I keep my views so strong and stick up for what I believe in. With opinions that are pressed with the utmost of energy, such as that of cloricus, I end up realizing why the world is better off having my side as well as his.

Well played cloricus... I couldnt have made you look any worse myself.

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]Gokents, I think that was just sad.
I left it last time you insulted me, and a few others on the boards. Some of which got you back very well.
I too think it is good to have your opinion and mine. I do not say that I am rite or that you are. They are both a spin on facts. So technically both are incorrect.
Personally I don't believe either side, I just enjoy taking the other side to the most vocal person.

I hope this clears up some things and I'd like you not to do what you just did again.

Thank you.
Cloricus - Watch out for my next post, Why Iraq hates Al-Qaad(sp?).[/color]

[Kent]

Well, first off,

Its al-queda in the enlish translation, but that is of no real importance because we all know what you meant, just as with when you meant to say "right" and not "rite."

Just so you know though, James and My previous english teacher made me realize that simple grammatical errors call the over all quality of any writing into question.

I do want to stress though, that I do not see what you mean about what I did.

I find that interesting, I mean, I do understand and know (since I did it) the spitful nature of my last post. But I see no insult as open or as personal as your attempts to say such things to me as..."gokents, go suck a flag" and other classics like " ... I go to school so I can get a job, not sit on my arse all day and watch cnn."

Although I will admit, I like you determination, I dont like your attempt to take an approach of justifying your own comments with a "personally I dont believe either side, I just enjoy taking the other side to the most vocal person."
Atleast do your usual routine and stick to your guns until the very end, without that, your argument holds no validity, and ends up being just an unneeded rant on doubts of a situation this country, and the world, need no more confusion on.

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]Ha... um get over it.

For one, my spelling is not the best. I make no apology, I try my hardest to find words and then correct them and I am slowly improving my over all spelling and grammar.

I'd like to note that I fixed up some of your spelling mistakes as well.

One thing I don't get, I provided the source and how to obtain where I got my information. Yet you did not ask for it or seek it yourself, and you still call me a liar?
I'd ask who is truly the misguided one here.

As for insults, you slip in your fare share as well. I just find it entertaining. It livens up the debate. :D

Last of all, that is the second post you've made to say that you are better than me in this thread. Each time I haven't denied that?
I think you should stop. I know after this one I will be.

Cloricus[/color]

[Celia]

[color=0099FF] [size=1]Duh it's for oil!

Iraq doesn't even want to go againt a such poweful country. And all those innocent people in Iraq, they can't even afford their living. And people that are in the army, some of them were forced to go. And expecially one of my relative, he was forced to go. He is now one of them, who are hanging in a thread, waiting for the president to make his decision. Everyday, wondering when he can be home.

Peace [/color] [/size]

[Juu]

[color=ff00cc] [size=1]Er... one more comment... ^_^;

If we bomb Iraq, Mesopotamia goes... poof! >>;

We're going to lose all of our biblical history, and really, really great structures. = \

Iraq has some of the most ancient buildings there. ><

Examples: The Gates of Ishtar, Ziggurats...etc[/color] [/size]

[Kent]

Iraq is one of the most important places in terms of historic value, yet under Saddam, no one is allowed to go and look at these places. Tourist, nor acheoligist, no one.

I also want to remind you that bombing has targets.

We dont just carpet bomb the whole country hoping to hit something.

We aim, and we aim on targets that provide military capabilities.

If war was forced on you, would you try and hide your tank and artiliary, which you knew were targets, in the yards of civilians or on the steps of the most important archeoligical structures in the world.

I wouldnt, I would face my enemy openly and try my best to win the war.

But I wouldnt drag unwilling civilians into it... do you think Saddam will do that?

Or will he be willing to put the innocents of his country in the line of fire?

I believe that not attacking Saddam and forcing him to disarm is the equivalent to giving Adolf Hitler Poland and hoping he would stop there.

[JCBaggee]

[color=red]No bombs. Regardless of what one man and his minions have done, there are still too many innocent souls over there to risk losing. They have done nothing wrong and I am appaled by the thought that they could be hurt in the middle of the war. When it comes down to we have no other choice, that is when bombs should be used, not a second sooner. For now, let's just try to do this [b]without[/b] losing more innocents than we already have.

--Chris[/color]

[Kent]

I find it funny, yes funny, that people are worried about innocents, and for that reason they want Saddam to be left alone.

That is an oxy-moron if I have ever thought one out.

If we dont know, then we all should know that Saddam does more damage to the people of Iraq without anyone elses bombs or war, than most of us would ever allow from first world democracies trying to liberate those people.

If we truly are as caring and loving about the people of Iraq as we claim, we must to go war simply to save them from the most horrible leader in the world.

I dont think I need to write those deeds he has done... torture, genocide... they arent needed for this, but I often wonder if all of the people protesting war realize that allowing Saddam to continue as he has will just let these actions go on for an amount of time that no nation should have to endure.

If we really care, we will save the people of Iraq, not leave them to die by the hands of Saddams military and secret police.

I mean... hallabjah. Thats all I should have to say about saddam.

btw, I hope those innocents your talking about protecting arent the ones manning tanks, artillery peices and marching around with assault rifles...

[Vegitto4]

Hmmm, i voted to get rid of the current admin. However, the undercover reason, is that sadam doesn't like to cooperate with us, so meh.

[Orien_Xel]

I've stepped in again to say that oppose the war! (guess who went to the anti-war rally in San Fran in January? :))

Wel, anyway I think Saddam is a bad person.(Anyone who kills 5,00 plus people is a bad person!) But I see no need to go to war! there is no point if we really wanted to get rid of Saddam, why don't we just send a CIA hit squad after him? We do have them! as for the "evidence", we have an old photo, some tapes that could've been doctored, some information from some "reliable sources" and stuff we THINK they have. this doesn't hold up for me.
Gokents, I respect the fact that you have an opion, and that you express it. I just don't agree. war is only an option if they are attacking you. guess who isn't attacking us? IRAQ!

Oh, yeah, here's something else: N. Korea has Nuke, and we're negoiating? Probably because there is no OIL in N. Korea.

By the way, after 9-11 there were people in the streets of Iran supporting us. Then Bush branded them "evil". Guess what happened?They recoiled! What a suprise! Thats it for now.

[Kent]

Well just like you, I dont mind you having your opinion.

Its like Ive said a million times before... makes things better when both sides are accounted for.

But I still dont really see why people want to go to war with North Korea and ignore Iraq. I mean, we have the chance to stop Iraq from doing what n.k. has done (obtaining and producing you know whats) but everyone thinks its a good idea to talk things out with Iraq and jump into it with N.K.

It just doesnt make sense to me, I dont know, maybe its that side of me that understands what the cold war was about?
Not that anyone else doesnt, just that, well...

I dont know, I figure that for some, no amount of evidence will ever be enough.

And I guess we would all rather wait around to see what happens than use our better judgment. Of course, if you dont believe anything presented to the U.N., then I guess your better judgment would tell you there is nothing wrong in Iraq.

I should mention that the U.S.A. doesnt do assasinations on heads of state, contrary to what some in the "conspiracy theory" mind set may want you to believe.
Of course, if we were allowed to do that sort of thing, I would fully support it.

Either way, I still believe the greatest point to be made is simply this...

To ask for peace and not war with Iraq, is to ignore the suffering of the Iraqi people. No honest person should be able to say that dethrowning Saddam will do more damage than good.

It will allow the Iraqi people to do as they wish to for once in their lives.

But I do wanna say, lets go to war with N.K. thats a great idea to me. Nothing makes more sense than jumping into a fight with a nuclear power. All the while ignoring a problem that will only continue to get worse.

We shouldnt let personal beef with the bush administration blind us to the problems of the world.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]Before I begin, let me remind you that I am twenty-two years old. I am a young man out of college, I am healthy, have no disabilities, no impairments with the exception of my less then stellar vision, and I have plenty of male cousins that could carry on my family name. I am a prime candidate for the draft, and I am scared to death of the fact that I may be headed into war.

With that being stated, I fully support entering into a war with Iraq.

I am not a greedy American. I do not wish war on Iraq because I covet their oil. I am not a stupid, uninformed American. I do not wish to enter a conflict in Iraq because of my undying faith in our politicians. I do believe, however, that I have a shred of American pride, a sense of freedom that was hard fought for by my fore fathers, and I believe it is time we allowed the people of Iraq to reestablish their sense of Iraqi-pride. I believe that it is time for us to lend our assistance to the Iraqi people so they are able to live their lives without the constant terror, fear, and persecution of Saddam's regime.

I do not believe that the Iraqi people like America, but I do believe they want our help. They crave our help. They need the resources that America can provide, the need the shoulder to lean on that America can lend them. Once the people of Iraq see that America is there to help liberate them from Saddam they will become the soldiers that reclaim their country from two decades of tyranny. The people of Iraq will rise and forget their fear of their cruel leader. They will not have to fear being shot for speaking out against their government. They will not have to fear their children being forced to march to witness public executions. They will not have to fear disappearing because they did not accomplish a glorification ceremony for Saddam in time. And they will not have to fear living their lives without understanding the god given right of freedom.

The shadow of World War two has still not passed from this world. Are those persecuted and hunted for seeking freedom in Iraq any different then the Jews who were persecuted and hunted only a little more then a half century ago in Europe? America entered World War II too late, an earlier intervention may have saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Why should we wait and repeat history, instead of following the old saying and learn from it?[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i]
[B]
Oh, yeah, here's something else: N. Korea has Nuke, and we're negoiating? Probably because there is no OIL in N. Korea.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]The sooner people quit the utterly lame oil argument, the sooner this debate will have moved to a higher level.[/color]

[Orien_Xel]

I object to that statement. It is quite obvious that oil is what this war is about. Sorry.

I just don't see the evidence as credible. Like I said: SADDAM IS NOT A GOOD PERSON! I would love to see him thrown out of power. The only problem I have is that if we go to war, civlians will get hurt! Hell, if I could get to Saddam I would probably kill him myself.

Gokents, you bring up a good point about N.K. It has nukes. We don't want to get nuked, so we don't want to go to war with them. Makes sense. Maybe we should pull our forces out of S.K.

If we can get rid of the dictators in ALL the middle-eastern countries, that would be a good thing. If we could get rid of the American backed dictators in Latin America, that would be a good thing. If we could get rid of all the dictators and evil people in the world, that would be a good thing.
If the entire world could just stop thinking about war, if the world could put its money and resources towards education, social services, and health-care, thenthe world would be a very nice place to live in. Unfourtunatly, there will always be people all over the world that will want and crave power. This always puts a stop to those who want peace. I wish the world would put aside their differences, and see past religion, skin color, and otherdifferences. Then we could live very happy lives. But that won't happen in my lifetime, unfourtunnatly.

Gokents, you have brought up several good points in this discussion, but there are U.S. trained Death-Squads. At least in Latin America. They are trained at the School of the Americas. Do a search for it on the web. You'll find something. I respect all of your views, and all of your opions. I'm sure that one day, people will be able to see pst differences, and have world peace. But I won't see it.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i]
[B]I object to that statement. It is quite obvious that oil is what this war is about. Sorry.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]To the uninformed, perhaps.

Let me list the reasons why the impending war is not about oil.

1) Why would the United States want oil from Iraq? For higher supply and thus, lower fuel prices. If that was the case, then the United States would not opt for a war. Rather, it would be far easier to simply lift the sanctions on Iraq and allow it to utilize its own oil resources to a greater extent. War is often unpopular with large sectors of society; why deliberately hurt your PR image when there is a much easier way to receive the same amount of oil supply? It doesn't make sense. The United States is not going to deliberately put itself out there and hurt its image to achieve something that could be done a lot easier without war.

2) One of the core principles of the Bush Administration's energy policy is an increase in energy production domestically. If the Administration planned to take over Iraqi oil fields, then such a plan would be redundant. Rather, the USA wishes to become more independent when it comes to oil and other energy sources; which is precisely why President Bush's energy policy is so focused on domestic power development.

It's very easy to say "It's all about oil!!" and to spout off other ill-informed propaganda like that. Very easy -- and very effective for those who are not aware of Government policies or the substance of United Nations resolutions. Unfortunately, such arguments are irrelevant. The broad array of facts available effortlessly deconstruct such theories.

And by the way...in your last post, you talk about getting rid of dictators and how good that would be. I hope you realize that getting rid of dictators is exactly what this war is about. Noobdy likes war and I don't think anyone is arguing that war is a good thing in itself. But sometimes war is necessary for whatever reason. I'm not telling you that this war should be supported by everyone, but I'm encouraging you to understand that we don't live in Never Land; sometimes we have to face the harsh realities of life. We certainly [i]aren't[/i] going to get rid of Saddam via weapons inspections and negoations over tea and crumpets.[/color]

[DuoMax]

[quote]There is no way that can happen in the first world press without proper acknoledgment.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, Gokents, but if you believe that th e western media would broadcast ANYTHING that would harm its government, youare sorely dissilousioned.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMax [/i]
[B]I'm sorry, Gokents, but if you believe that th e western media would broadcast ANYTHING that would harm its government, youare sorely dissilousioned. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]Then how do you explain the often critical coverage by networks such as CNN's domestic providers?

Australia's "A Current Affair" is about to air an anti-war piece. I've never seen a more clear-cut case of one-sided propaganda in all my life. Australia is a western country. There is one example of a local news organization broadcasting something that opposes Government.

Thinking that the media is the lapdog of Government is far more naive.[/color]

[Orien_Xel]

Sorry Dou, but I have to go with James on that one...

I'm sorry if I thnk Bush is after the oil! That is my opion! Besides, several oil companies have already discussed with the government about how they are going to divide up the oil fields.

By the way, where is Osama bin Laden? He dissepeared of Bush's "evil-doer list" awhile ago. He no longer mentions the name "Bin Laden". Why is that?

[James]

[color=#808080]That's your opinion? But you've provided no evidence that it's true.

Of [i]course[/i] they're going to divide up the oil fields if they take over Iraq. Why? Because a reignition of the oil fields would provide an instant source of financing for that country. Thus, Iraq could be rebuilt and its new Government would have enough financing to get the country back on its feet.

The idea that the United States will somehow take that oil and pump it all secretly to its own territory is absolutely ridiculous and contradicts every piece of evidence that I provided in my post above.

The key here is to actually research the situation and understand the motivations. People who hate Bush or who are anti-war are [i]always[/i] going to find some pointless excuse to attack the situation, regardless of how right or wrong a war on Iraq might be. And that annoys me; it's like people who are blindly partisan...it's just stupid and it ignores the facts.

At least allow yourself to be realistic. You can oppose war without getting into the predictable "it's all for oil" camp.[/color]

[DuoMax]

sorrry, but when i atttended a peace march in S.F. where there about 150,000 people, the local News channels didn't even blink!!

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i]
[B]I object to that statement. It is quite obvious that oil is what this war is about. Sorry.

I just don't see the evidence as credible. Like I said: SADDAM IS NOT A GOOD PERSON! I would love to see him thrown out of power. The only problem I have is that if we go to war, civlians will get hurt! Hell, if I could get to Saddam I would probably kill him myself.
[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]Oil has very little bearing on the conflict that we face with Iraq. Right now we have huge embargos placed on Iraq that restrict/limit the amount of oil the US and other UN countries can purchase from them. If the argument was about oil alone the US could just lift the embargo and buy as much oil as it would like from Iraq at a very low cost. We would never need a single solider's life to be watsed if we lifted the embargo, however, the people of Iraq would still be slaughtered, persecuted, and oppressed my a megalomaniacal leader.

By going to war with Iraq, America can help to inspire the people of Iraq to overthrow Saddams regime and create a government of their own. Iraq is such an incredibly diverse area of the middle east, that it is doubtful that another Dictator would arise to power. As for oil, oil will be the savior for Iraq. Once the war is over the people of Iraq will easily be able to rebuild and strengthen their economy by selling oil after the embargo is lifted. Iraq's oil almost gaurentees them a swift rebuilding process.[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMax [/i]
[B]sorrry, but when i atttended a peace march in S.F. where there about 150,000 people, the local News channels didn't even blink!! [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]Oh, so because the local news channels didn't cover that one peace march, they are somehow in the pocket of Government?

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

Even though I have seen hours of coverage of peace marches in Washington D.C. (and even in Iraq of all places) on CNN. Yeah, guess it doesn't count because you didn't see it yourself. ~_~[/color]

[Orien_Xel]

I still think oil is one of the deciding factors. Almost the entire world thinks we shouldn't go to war. What really annoys me is "get on or hit the road" attitude of the U.S. government.

[b]Dou:[/b]0 [b]James:[/b]2

Gotta go with James again Dou.

Besides we all know FOX is evil anyway!;)