The Homosexual Controversy

[Vegitto4]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i]
[B]What I met was that guys falling in love with each other is as natural as a guy falling in love with a girl.

Homosexuality has been around as long as heterosexuality, so how could it NOT be natural?

And if other species do it, I don't see how it can't be natural.

It may not be reproductively naturally, but its still natural! [/B][/QUOTE]

A guy faling in love with anything is natural,it's a natural emotion. This I will agree with. However, the two sects of sexuality have not been around for the same amount of time. Not totally. Very close, probably a couple hundred years or less. it is not, however much James pulls out his genome project card, in our genes. It was not grafted into our brains.


But enough about that. I honestly want to know what goes on in the mind of a gayperson. it's kind of weird to me, so i woudl liek to udnerstand. Keep the discussion going.

[Charles]

Actually gokents, I have a slightly different opinion of prejudice and discrimination. As I studied it, prejudice is a prejudgement for or against any person or group. It often reflects political, social, or economic forces in society. Anyone can be prejudice; it's not as cut and dry as people think.

For instance, I have a prejudice regarding you. I can automatically assume that you're a DragonBall Z fan and that Gotenks is your favorite character. I could react favorably, negatively, or passively to you based on that. It doesn't mean I'm correct, but it's a prejudgement I can make based on your screen name. If I was a fan of Hitler's genius and I joined Otakuboards under the screen name of "Hitler" people might automatically assume I'm anti-Semitic, just as they assume I'm white and male.

So, of course, we all have our own prejudices. You might not like to hang out with people who conduct themselves in a certain way. That's prejudice. It's not evil or anything.

Discrimination is much deeper than what you described. It's power plus prejudice. It's when harmful conduct occurs and one group deprives another group of something else. Discriminatory actions aren't quite as common.

If anyone has seen the movie [i]Philadelphia[/i], they know how prejudice and discrimination correspond to homosexuality. People automatically make assumptions about the main character and he adopts many of the characteristics of a minority group. He faces prejudice from his lawyer. He experiences discrimination when his job is wrongfully terminated and the librarian tries to force him to sit apart from everyone in the library.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i]
[B]How do you know that? I've read somewhere that most men (if they could reply anonymously) have had homo- or bi-sexual fantasies. And also, many men in their youth have masturbated with their male friends (or this is at least what I've heard :blush: ).[/b][/quote]

I know it because I am a straight male. I have never had those fantasies or masturbated with my friends, lol. So, I can only speak for myself and those I know. I would like to know how many of these people were intoxicated or under some kind of influence when they decided on having a good round of masturbation with their friends. I know it sure wouldn't be a good father/son activity either. :drunk:

[Mitch]

[color=red] This thread is fully loaded with different opinions. I don't care if someone thinks being gay is wrong, I don't care if even God says it's wrong. There has to be something right about it. With every bad thing there's something good. So if you people here want to classify being gay as a totally wrong thing, it isn't.

To me being gay is far from wrong, it is something that a person cannot even control; yet they are discriminated against for how they are by something they can't control. That is purely illogical reasoning, no matter how many billions of different ways you explain or describe why it's wrong. If it's wrong, why isn't there a choice?

Most things that are wrong have a choice, an opposite. You either do the good thing or the bad. But with being gay, as James said, it is believed to be purely some form of the human genome--genetics. So how can you prejudice someone for something they can't control, that they can't help, and that they certainly can't let go and just leave so it's gone forever. How can you do that?

There's not one thing wrong with being gay, at least to me. It's purely something that God, genes, whatever you want to give your source--it's something that's given, not chose. If you go as far to say being gay totally makes a person who they are, then there's also an error in your judgment there. Being gay doesn't make a person. Someone can be gay and completly be normal.

Some of you here are being much too harsh. Gay people are people, too. They live, they eat, they breathe, they have feelings. Put yourself in their shoes, just try to imagine.

And what if being heteorsexual was wrong? Would you sway and be gay just so you could live rightly in society, and not be discriminated? Would you just follow the flow just so [i]you[/i] aren't prejudiced, discriminated against? I'm sure some would.

There's not [i]anything[/i] wrong with being gay. It's something that's uncontollable, and it doesn't change a person for who they are and what they live.[/color]

[Kent]

Actually crazy white boy, those are the definitions, hence you can have any opinion about the social and cultural implications of those words meanings, but you can not change the actual meanings.

The dictionary I used was a "random house websters dictionary" so its not the best.

That is why I went to "marrian websters dictionary." The real deal.

The true websters defines prejudice in a similar manner as well as discrimination.
Discrimination- The act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually.
Prejudice- A preconcieved judgment or opinion. 2) an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before suffiecent knowledge.

Those are qouted from the world renowned Marrian websters dictionary.

They are also the most applicable, since there are several definitions listed.

I do understand your point about prejudice in the general sense, as applied to ...say... my name on the boards.

Heres the thing, I never said that there are certain people who cant be prejudice nor did I give the usual circumstances in which the term prejudice applies. (both of those you did)

Infact if you look at what I said and what you said, you merely explained it in your own words with an added contextual refference so others could understand your point.

With all that said... nothing I said was out of place.

I merely gave definitions of the words and explained that it is possible for an individual to live life with out prejudice.

However, even with those points made, I think it is of even greater importance that I stress to you how different the context of your example of prejudice and my example were...

I made a refference to prejudice applying to race, creed, color, sexual orientation, nationality and so on...

You made a reference to the most basic of possible prejudices... My name for example. You claim that you were prejudiced to believe I am a dbz fan whose favorite charactor is gotenks, well indeed that was prejudice.

You made an assumption without proper knowledge of the situation.
Had you looked into it, you would seen the play on words since my name in real life is Kent.

This means that what you did, was indeed the most basic form of prejudice, but it in no way contradicted my definition, nor did it imply that I have taken part in any sort of prejudice.

Plus, if we use such general standards of what these words mean, then there would be nothing to seperate prejudice from logical induction/deduction, which could also easily be what you did in respect towards my board name.

This is actually interesting to me, because take this example...

Say that you like chocolate icecream more than vanilla. Would that make you prejudiced to vanillia?

Well the answer lies in the individuals background.

If they have tasted vanillia before and dont like it based on that... then they are not prejudiced.
But if they dont like it, even without having tasted it before... then that person is prejudiced.

Do you see what I mean in that example.

So the question is...

Do we take the loose definitions and apply them in the most general terms possible to achieve an end goal that implies all people are prejudiced?

Or do we apply some sort of discretion which would allow us to only apply these terms in this specific debate to the ideas of discriminating a person or group based on any number of things like their sex, sexuality or race?

I leave this to you all, but I tell you this... the definitions are not my opinion, they are actual definitions.

Heck you guys have dictionaries and understand how to use them.
You also know why there are multiple definitions to each word.

But I do want to stress that everything cwb said was right on. He said everything I said but for some reason it comes across to me that cwb is trying to disagree with me some how.

[Justin]

I find it utterly amazing how people will turn 'God' into whatever they want him to be. I've seen and read tons of different views on 'God' (all of which are described as being the true god the Bible describes) and each and every one takes the characteristics from the Bible that please them and mix them with characteristics from somewhere else.

I'll put it to you like this: I don't know much, but one thing I do know is that the God of the Bible is as He is described in the Bible. No matter how I'd like Him to be, no matter how anyone would like Him to be, He is what He is.

Now I'll get to my originally intended point: I don't know much about genetics, but I think it's safe to say that there's as much concrete evidence(if not more) to support my beliefs in the God of the Bible as there is to support that homosexuality is genetic. Take that as you will.

NOW, I do have one more thing to present: (Don't you love colons?) I will go as far as to say that different people have different things that they like. Not just sexually speaking, mind you, but generally speaking. Like I may go for girls with blue eyes, but the guy next to me may like brown or green, to put it simply. I think the same very well applies to people with homosexual orientations. Now, if that's genetic somehow, then I'm willing to agree with James.

Either way, people are going to have different beliefs. No one can expect to change those beliefs through an online forum. I don't expect my mini-sermon to impact anyone with an opposing opinion, and in that light, everyone should know that getting mad and going on a rant at someone's apparant idiocy probably won't greatly impact them either. Let's try to keep this topic mature as we can, so that more debates such as this one can be had.

-Justin

[Lady Macaiodh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vegitto4 [/i]
[B]But enough about that. I honestly want to know what goes on in the mind of a gayperson. it's kind of weird to me, so i woudl liek to udnerstand. Keep the discussion going. [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=darkblue]Think about it like this.

When kids grow up, they don't think in terms of sexuality or sexual preference. The first time I was really attracted to a girl, I was about 8 or 9. I thought to myself, "She's really pretty & nice. I like her." Not "I'm bisexual." I didn't even know there was a difference, really. It was exactly the same as when I had my first crush on a guy about a year earlier. I had the same feelings, thoughts, & desires for both. The only difference was that one was male & the other female. It didn't even enter my mind. All I knew what that it felt good and exciting.

I'm sure you remember the first girl you ever really liked. It's wasn't a "decision" you made to be straight, it was just a beautiful feeling for a beautiful girl. One day, she was just there, in your thoughts & heart. It's the same with gays. They just start noticing people they are attracted to.

In fact, it's not until much later that people "realize" they're gay, since most little kids haven't been explained the concept yet. Only when they're older is it made known to them that their romantic feelings, which are natural to them, have a different [i]label.[/i]

So in reality what goes on in their minds is no different than what goes on in yours.

This is my take on it, so, others feel free to add on.[/COLOR]

[eleanor]

I agree, Lady Macaiodh.
Well, this is what the Webster dictionary says.

1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

[QUOTE]But enough about that. I honestly want to know what goes on in the mind of a gayperson. it's kind of weird to me, so i woudl liek to udnerstand. Keep the discussion going.[/QUOTE]

Well, judging by that the dictionary says, I believe you were being prejudice the moment you wrote that. Who said gay people had a totally opposite mind then straight people? The thoughts that are swirling around their heads may be exactly the same as our thoughts. Who knows, judging by [I]another[/I] opinion, I could be commiting an act of prejudice right there. I'm probably just making simple matters worse, but hey.
I also beleive that nobody can go on in life and not once be prejudice against something, or have a stereotype.
For example, if I said,
"North Korea," what would pop into your head? Judging from their actions, most people would probably think along the lines of evil, dangerous, etc. I happen to know for a fact that the people who live in North Korea are extremely polite and generous. How many of you have used the word "Sped" in your life to insult someone? When you see an African-American or Mexican person in an all-white school, what thought do you think would pop into your brain? Although I'm ashamed to admit it, I would think he/she would be in a low or average class. Of course, stereotypes have a seed of truth in them.

[Mnemolth]

I can't stand straight people! I mean...they are so....[i]gay[/i]! :D

[eleanor]

Haha...I kinda agree with you. Whenever I read shounen-ai or yaoi stories that have a big fat "WARNING, YAOI CONTENT. NO HOMOPHOBES" and they decide to read it anyway and flame the crap out of it, it just gets me mad.

[boothten]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Queen Asuka [/i]
[B][color=hotpink][size=1]
Anyways, that's when I thought guy on guy wouldn't be so bad. Of course, I have no problem with anyone or their sexuality. It's their choice. I just don't want to watch, if that's what we're talking about here.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=silver]I totally agree with Queen Asuka. I really just don't think about it. I'm not going to interfere with [b]their[/b] lives. Let them make their decisions. Who am I to tell them who to love and who not to love.[/COLOR]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vegitto4 [/i]
[B] However, the two sects of sexuality have not been around for the same amount of time. Not totally. Very close, probably a couple hundred years or less. it is not, however much James pulls out his genome project card, in our genes. It was not grafted into our brains.


[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]Once again, another ignorant comment.

"Not totally. Very close. Probably a couple of hundred years or less."

Do you even realize how ridiculous you sound? And even if that were the case, how would it prove that homosexuality isn't a phenomenon of nature? Even if all of that were totally true, it wouldn't prove anything.

I also notice that you made [i]no[/i] attempt to even refute my argument. You simply pull a few laughably stupid "facts" out from nowhere and try to sound authoritative.

Sorry, but this latest post only continues to define your utter ignorance on [i]anything[/i] relating to genetics or biology. I can't believe you have the gall to post something like that after your horribly misinformed rubbish from earlier. If you're going to post something in this thread, try to [i]at least[/i] put some research behind it. Don't start pulling inane, childish facts out of your butt.

Oh, and I want to remind you of something in case you didn't notice earlier. You're talking about the [i]emotions[/i] being natural, but not the physical acts of sex.

Since when was Lady Macaiodh talking about physical sex? She was talking about the very question of relationships and emotions. You were the one who came in and started talking about what goes where and how wrong it is. Also, how on Earth can anyone know when a certain "sexuality" arose? It's impossible to know how people's emotions were over thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. That's just childish.

Also, you're trying to somehow cast doubt over homosexuality being natural [i]based[/i] on acts of sex between two people. Not only does this ignore the fact that the core emotions of love and attraction [i]are[/i] a natural part of the human mind (whether you're heterosexual or otherwise), but you're also forgetting that most heterosexual couples have some form of "unnatural" sex. Are you now going to tell me that heterosexuality isn't natural if the sex is anything but intercourse? (ie: oral sex).

If you tried to make [i]that[/i] argument, then there isn't a person here who wouldn't think that you're crazy. So you see, you're pulling out a double standard. I hope you actually read this post and understand my point -- I think most people will.[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

Why is it always the little heteros that always seem to think being HATED it a choice?

I'm sorry you little prick, but no. Until you TELL me you chose to be straight, you're nothing but a no good, stupid ***, little sh*t who is no better than the Grand Wizard of the KKK. But you can't... because you didn't choose to be straight.... it's, afterall, natural isn't it?

We don't chose to be hated by f*ck wads like youself. Thats the absolute most pathetic thing I've heard anyone say. How can you look in the mirror when you think something like that. You're pathetic. The world KILLS us for what we are, and it's people like you that let it happen. YOU support terrorism because you hate. YOU are a terrorist because you hate.

I'm tired of hearing this non-sense from you little bastards. It SHOULDN'T matter to you who I want to live my life with. It SHOULDN'T matter to you who I have sex with. And it deffinantly SHOULDN'T matter to you what I do with MY life. Because guess what, I want nothing to do with yours, SO STAY THE HELL OUT OF MINE.

I'm sorry this had to be said, but this is ridiculous and pathetic.

[TheShinje]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]I want nothing to do with yours, SO STAY THE HELL OUT OF MINE.

I'm sorry this had to be said, but this is ridiculous and pathetic. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree TN, Fully.

I am a christian, bu I feel it is not my place to go bashing people for their sexuality, I believe this is the worse kind of hypocrisy that you could find. It hurts people, and yes, some are killed, so patheticly, because they choose to be gay. It is wrong.

I bleieve this was bought up by Deus Ex Machina a while ago, that we are all sinners, no one is perfect, so anyone who tells you they are are f**ed in the head literally.

There should be no controversy, people should be free to believe what they want, God gave us free will you know.

[Vegitto4]

[i]There is no scientific data that substantiates a genetic or biologic basis for same-sex attraction. Anybody can change." Richard Cohen, at the year 2000 PFOX convention.
[/i]

Thats just to prove my point that james seems to hate. Anyways. Time to continue on with the research, so as to not continue to show my obvious utter ignorance to anything that has to do with genitics or biology.


Now shall i quote her entire post, or not. because as I read over it again and again, I still see nothing about emotions. If I am wrong, please correct me.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lady Macaiodh [/i]
[B][COLOR=darkblue]

Society's perspective--two girls getting it on: sexy, a turn on. Two guys getting it on: nasty, perverted.
[/COLOR] [/B][/QUOTE]

Thus, we are not talking about emotions at all. if the subject of emotions are mentioned in a later post by her, please do quote it so I may see, and be found in ignorance.


[size=1][i]More to come if I am not to ignorant. [/i] [/size]

EDIT: [i]Young boys sometimes encounter homosexual feelings because their fathers ignored them, thus driving them to side with their mothers and eventually emulate their mothers' sexual desires. [/i] ~Glenn Dunehew

[Kent]

Here's my side.

I support tn's side of things, but I also find it horribly offensive that tn used plurality in his insults towards straight indivuals.

I wish it didnt have to be done because of a couple of reasons, but mostly because it gives support to my earlier comments that homosexual men often insult and discriminate men like myself based on stereotypes of other straight males.

I wonder about what kind of patience this shows... I mean, can you really ask for tolerance when you respond to one individual out of several on the boards with this sort of hatful commentary.

Now of course there was hate on the other end, but thats how it always works.

In Americas situation today, people hate us for reasons that can barely be expressed in words, yet people all over the country ask the government to not take aggressive actions against the terrorist who want to take lives.

Then... there is a war between ideologies. "Gay and straight" people fight it out constantly and tolerance of homosexuals is the end goal for some. But while that may be the situation, there are people who turn to stereotypes of straight people, they resort to the very same hateful comments that their oppisites use.

How can I have respect for the homosexual population when the only representation I ever get is that of people who treat me like I have done something wrong?

"Im tired of hearing this non-sense from you little bastards."

That is not a comment directed at a single individual you disagree with.
Instead, that shows me that no matter what side of the argument anyone is on, they can always act just as bad as the other side.

How can I show tolerance to people who will not give tolerance to me?

This is the very same sort of situation I find myself in when it comes to dealing with hostile elements towards the u.s.a.

Constantly I am asked not to support war, yet the other side pursues nothing besides full war itself.

The same happens here... I am asked to tolerate and accept homosexual behavior, (which I have always done) yet while I do that, I am treated as if I am a hostile element towards the "homosexual cause."

Im sure you didnt mean these generalized comments towards people such as myself, but when you generalize, that is what happens.

[Transtic Nerve]

I'm sorry I used the word heteros as if refering to all heterosexual peoples. If anyone knows me they know I have no problems with straight people. Hell, my best friends are all straight. I have a small amount of gay friends, most of whom I don't trust, or see on a regular basis. I was meaning everything in a way to show people whats it's like to go through my life. And the fact, like everything else, the people who have a problem with being gay aren't gay, thus HAVE NO IDEA what it's like. I don't go around saying "how can you be attrated to those boobs or that naked lady" or "how can you touch them, yuck"... Now I hear everyday CERTAIN straight people going "how can you be attracted to a man, how can you have sex with a man" etc etc.

OBVIOUSLY gokents, this isn't aimed at people who support us. I was, and still am, absolutely pissed that something like this topic is even CONSIDERED in thought today. I thought we were America... home of the free, apparently you're not free if you're gay. You homophobics out there need to wake up and smell the coffee. or whetever you drink. This is the year 2003. Being gay is now shown on TV, talked about on the news, supported by more people than who oppose it. It's like you're supporting slavery. Acting as if we are less a person because of something YOU have no part in. Why don't you just paint me black and send me to 1810 where I can be whipped and beaten because of HOW I WAS BORN! Get a life! then jump off a bridge...

[Kent]

I still see nothing from you (tn) in form of addressing people like myself.

I support the idea of being left alone in your sexual prefference. nothing more, nothing less.

I dont care if your gay or whatever... but I cant stand the fact that it is constantly a war with straights and the bottomline is a comparison to one of the most brutal times in the history of america.

I hate to say it, but no one has you chains and I dont think you should compare the "relative compassion for homosexuals" to the "compassion for slaves" shown in 1810. (there was no compasion at all for them. So the slave issue shouldnt be brought up)

I believe that simply addressing the people who do not approve of homosexuality by getting upset again and then addressing your comments about a stereotypical straight male by saying "those who know me..." is wrong.

If I said a generalized comment about gay men it would not be forgiven. period.

I can not expect you to understand, because you have been the victim of "anti-gay" sentiment. But I on the other hand have fallen victim to a sterotyping that will never be addressed because I fall into an even smaller minority than you.

I am the voicless, pacifist male in this scenerio... you are the openly gay male... we both get "crap" from the oppisite party, but you will always have that fact recognized, while I will always have it ignored or written off because of the actions of others.

[Transtic Nerve]

You most certainly have a voice.... I'm listening.

[Guest cloricus]

TN, people dislike/hate/detest gay people.
[b][i]Accept it[/i][/b].
You, or any other gay person cannot change that.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]TN, people dislike/hate/detest gay people.
[b][i]Accept it[/i][/b].
You, or any other gay person cannot change that. [/B][/QUOTE]

I guess I don't have a choice of acceptance, but I'll be god damned if I'm going to let you tell when I should keep my mouth shut.

What is life about... if acceptance is how it is, then you should be talking to someone else, not me.

[Manic Webb]

Homosexual. Heterosexual. It's all preference, really. Either way, I still ain't getting any. :p

Seriously, though. Feelings are feelings and if a person developes feelings toward someone of their own gender rather than the opposite gender, there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, so what? I'm sure if I can be friends with a straight girl, I can get along just as well with a gay man (assuming he's not a jerk) without it getting uncomfortably sexy or anything. Sexual preference is one thing, but personality is completely different. Never get them confused. In conclusion, I'd like to quote a Janet Jackson song to think about...

"He was on the airplane
Sittin' next to this guy
Said he wasn't too shy
And he seemed real nice
Until he found out he was gay
That's so not mellow"

[Guest cloricus]

[quote][i]tn[/i]
I guess I don't have a choice of acceptance, but I'll be god damned if I'm going to let you tell when I should keep my mouth shut.

What is life about... if acceptance is how it is, then you should be talking to someone else, not me.[/quote]

I didn't tell you to "shut up" I told you that changing people?s views on the issue is nearly impossible so why bother.

TN there is a difference there, people don't like difference. (Especially damn Christians... and yes I know I'm christian.)
So there will always be a large or small group of people who hate the different people.
Gay?s are part of that "different" group.

I'd like to add that a lot of you are saying that you accept gay people with out understanding the whole lot. Now I don't know all (or most) of it because I'm not gay but having a few close friends that are gay teaches you a bit... Some of which are things that I'd never want to hear again but yeah. Lol?

Anyway tn the show your talking about is that folk? (queer as)

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vegitto4 [/i]
[B][i]There is no scientific data that substantiates a genetic or biologic basis for same-sex attraction. Anybody can change." Richard Cohen, at the year 2000 PFOX convention.
[/i]

Thats just to prove my point that james seems to hate. Anyways. Time to continue on with the research, so as to not continue to show my obvious utter ignorance to anything that has to do with genitics or biology.[/quote][/b]

[color=#808080]How does that prove your point?

First and foremost, it's important to understand that Mr. Cohen belongs to a particular school of thought. That school of thought has whined over and over again that homosexuality is unnatural, but have provided [i]no evidence[/i] that this is the case.

These people also belong to the group that says sexuality can be changed through therapy. This is patently false. Sexuality [i]cannot[/i] be changed through therapy. It is not a disease. Only [i]behavior[/i] can change -- not sexuality. It's important to understand that core difference.[/color][quote]


Now shall i quote her entire post, or not. because as I read over it again and again, I still see nothing about emotions. If I am wrong, please correct me.



Thus, we are not talking about emotions at all. if the subject of emotions are mentioned in a later post by her, please do quote it so I may see, and be found in ignorance.


[size=1][i]More to come if I am not to ignorant. [/i] [/size]

EDIT: [i]Young boys sometimes encounter homosexual feelings because their fathers ignored them, thus driving them to side with their mothers and eventually emulate their mothers' sexual desires. [/i] ~Glenn Dunehew [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]First point; we are talking about homosexuality is perceived by the public. In this case, Lady M. is pointing out that female same-sex relationships are more tolerated by society than male same-sex relationships, due to the fact that straight men often find the idea of two women together stimulating.

This isn't about sex or specific sexual acts. This is about how same-sex relationships are perceived and that there is a difference between the way lesbian and gay relationships are viewed by society at large.

Unfortunately, your absolutely distasteful and vulgar post earlier on was the catalyst for moving the discussion in a totally unrelated direction.

Second point; this sounds like the same school of thought that suggests that young boys are inherently attracted to their mothers and that they engage in power struggles with fathers because they want to have sex with their mother. It's ridiculous.

You can't simply [i]emulate[/i] a sexual desire. We're not talking about something like paedophilia -- we're not talking about physical sex. We are talking about love, emotions and relationships. Sex is a part of relationships of course, but this isn't the specific subject.

The more you post and provide such quotes, the more you demonstrate that your "facts" are in fact thinly veiled attempts to hide prejudice and hatred.

If you visit the Ku Klux Klan's website, you will find similar attempts to sound "scientific". We hear what sound like authoritative reports that suggest that black people have a smaller brain size than white people -- but what is the point of such "scientific" research? The point is not to provide anyone with enlightenment or true factual information. The point is to justify hatred and misunderstanding by perpetuating distortions of science.

Your quotes are no different. People will either use religion or junk science to justify hate; the KKK have done it as have countless other groups. You are no different from members of these groups.

The bottom line, whatever personal hatreds you hold, is that [i]nobody[/i] should be discriminated against based upon their own internal emotions, race, country of origin, sex, etc...

If you want to grandstand and lecture people on how the very core of their humanity is [i]unnatural[/i], then feel free. Feel free to belittle people as you see fit. I personally couldn't care less whether or not you continue to isolate yourself with ignorance. If you want to spout garbage, that's your business.

But make no mistake that future generations will look back on comments like yours and equate them to the comments of KKK leaders during the 1960's. Be sure that in the future, you yourself may feel horrible for making such belittling comments.

You yourself won't understand how it feels to have your basic humanity attacked. You probably never will. But hopefully one day you'll have a concept of how utterly wrong you are and how your brand of junk science only serves to divide people and cause further hatred and unnecessary arguments.

I just wish that humanity would rise above such levels. We're [i]all[/i] human beings with great value -- and we're [i]all[/i] equal. Unfortunately, as long as people like you spout their misinformed garbage, mankind will [i]never[/i] be able to stop attacking itself.[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by S@bretooth:[/i][b]
It hurts people, and yes, some are killed, so patheticly, because they choose to be gay. It is wrong.
[/b][/quote]

[color=#808080]For the last damn time, people do [i]not[/i] choose to be gay! [i]Nobody chooses to be gay![/i]

I'd like you to tell me when you [b]chose[/b] to be attracted to the opposite sex. Think about it. Did you ever consciously choose? When you were at school and you got a crush on a girl, did you sit there and [i]choose[/i] who to have a crush on? Of course not!

You had that crush because of your biology. You didn't choose to have a crush or fall in love. It just happened. You didn't sit there and think "Gee, I think I'd better choose to be heterosexual". You [i]never[/i] chose that. Nobody ever chooses that.

Sexuality is all the same. Nobody makes a conscious choice to have a particular sexuality; it's part of who they are. And [i]that[/i] is why homosexuals and others continue to argue for [b]what's right[/b]. That is why Martin Luther King argued for civil rights for blacks. And that is why I'm here now telling Vegitto4 why he is wrong. People cannot help and should not be discriminated against for [b]who/what they are[/b]. When ignorant, prejudiced people learn this fundamental concept, the world will definitely be a better place.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]So remember, prejudice is based on having a negative opinion of something without any basis for that opinion. Not simply having a negative opinion. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah I know.. It's just my personal opinion that everyone forms a negative opinion of someone without any basis at some point in their lives.. I know there's a huge difference between prejudice and simply disliking someone based on experience.. I just don't believe that anyone hasn't prejudged someone, although obviously there are much different magnitudes of prejudice.. I'm not necessarily saying that you judge everyone's entire personality by what they look like...

meh.. I can't really describe it..

Your view is just as valid.. I just kind of don't believe anyone to have not been prejudiced in a slight way at some point in their lives.. though I realise that in your statement, you weren't really talking about the slight kind of prejudice, but the total opinion forming kind.



with regards to Vegitto4's "it's not natural" comment:

[quote]if it was natural, all guys would be gay all girls would be gay[/quote]

I believe we can all learn an important lesson about nature from here..

1- If black skin was natural we'd all have it
2- If left-handed people were natural we'd all be one
3- There should only be one "natural" hair colour, all the rest aren't natural
4- Short people aren't natural, if they were we'd all be short
5- Straight people aren't natural.. otherwise we'd all be straight, and we're not

Which is of course, a load of crap

get the picture?.. Nature isn't in a habit of making every one of us the same. One of the most evil people of the last century was fighting for a race of people, which were all the same. It's not a good thing to get into.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[color=#808080]For the last damn time, people do [i]not[/i] choose to be gay! [i]Nobody chooses to be gay![/i]

I'd like you to tell me when you [b]chose[/b] to be attracted to the opposite sex. Think about it. Did you ever consciously choose? When you were at school and you got a crush on a girl, did you sit there and [i]choose[/i] who to have a crush on? Of course not!

You had that crush because of your biology. You didn't choose to have a crush or fall in love. It just happened. You didn't sit there and think "Gee, I think I'd better choose to be heterosexual". You [i]never[/i] chose that. Nobody ever chooses that.

Sexuality is all the same. Nobody makes a conscious choice to have a particular sexuality; it's part of who they are. And [i]that[/i] is why homosexuals and others continue to argue for [b]what's right[/b]. That is why Martin Luther King argued for civil rights for blacks. And that is why I'm here now telling Vegitto4 why he is wrong. People cannot help and should not be discriminated against for [b]who/what they are[/b]. When ignorant, prejudiced people learn this fundamental concept, the world will definitely be a better place.[/color][/QUOTE]

I'd kind of have to agree.. in part.. o_O.. People don't choose to be one way or the other, but then I don't believe it's genetic either. It doesn't matter what we believe in, the truest thing that has ever been said about us is "we are the sum of our experiences" we're also the sum of our upbringing, our environment, and a whole load of other things that influence us and we don't even notice. Although homosexuality isn't an actual conscious choice, I do believe it is the result of experiences, upbringing, and a whole number of things which may influence that..

To be honest, I don't really know if we should find out if it's genetic.. a lot of people are opposed to even looking for the evidence at the moment, because if it turns out to be proved as a genetic thing, people may be able to choose the sexuality of their kids before birth. And it's a truly dangerous thing when we start playing God, and pass judgement on people before their birth.

As far as I know, there is so far no proof of it being genetic.. I personally don't believe it is genetic either, but I also don't believe we shouldn't really look for that info until we can be responsible with it.

[Guest cloricus]

[quote][i]Jamez[/i][color=gray]
For the last damn time, people do not choose to be gay! [i]Nobody chooses to be gay![/i][/color][/quote]

Though your post was very good I believe that fact is wrong. Personally I know someone who "decided" to be gay, and I have heard of others. It is not a purely chemical thing. Though other gay people I know say that it wasn't that way. So I don't think you can make such a broad statement.