James Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=#808080]Thank you for posting that, Deus. Your example is a very clear way of pointing out the key flaw in Vegitto4's ranting. My respect for you has increased a lot, just like it did after the PM you sent me regarding science and religion. I just wish more of the world could be as clear thinking.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i] [B]I find it utterly amazing how people will turn 'God' into whatever they want him to be. I've seen and read tons of different views on 'God' (all of which are described as being the true god the Bible describes) and each and every one takes the characteristics from the Bible that please them and mix them with characteristics from somewhere else. I'll put it to you like this: I don't know much, but one thing I do know is that the God of the Bible is as He is described in the Bible. No matter how I'd like Him to be, no matter how anyone would like Him to be, He is what He is. Now I'll get to my originally intended point: I don't know much about genetics, but I think it's safe to say that there's as much concrete evidence(if not more) to support my beliefs in the God of the Bible as there is to support that homosexuality is genetic. Take that as you will. NOW, I do have one more thing to present: (Don't you love colons?) I will go as far as to say that different people have different things that they like. Not just sexually speaking, mind you, but generally speaking. Like I may go for girls with blue eyes, but the guy next to me may like brown or green, to put it simply. I think the same very well applies to people with homosexual orientations. Now, if that's genetic somehow, then I'm willing to agree with James. Either way, people are going to have different beliefs. No one can expect to change those beliefs through an online forum. I don't expect my mini-sermon to impact anyone with an opposing opinion, and in that light, everyone should know that getting mad and going on a rant at someone's apparant idiocy probably won't greatly impact them either. Let's try to keep this topic mature as we can, so that more debates such as this one can be had. -Justin [/B][/QUOTE] [color=red] I'm not sure if this post was aimed at me, or just us all. But firstly, God can be whatever people see him as. Like you Justin, you see him purely as the one from the bible. I say more power to you, that's your right. But I on the other hand don't even know for sure if I do believe in God, and I certainly don't see him as he is explicitly shown in the bible. So I can have my opinion of God and so can you. Just respect that. As for the arguing, my last post was not aimed at arguing at all. I was just trying to force my opinion out as strongly as I possibly could, and it seemed that that was the most intense and strong approach for me. If your post wasn't specifically aimed at me, then I'm sorry, but I thought I needed to clarify my way of thinking to you.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [quote][i]Deus[/i] And it's a truly dangerous thing when we start playing God, and pass judgement on people before their birth.[/quote] Um, this is off topic but personally I don't think "Playing God" is such a bad thing. I personal want that opinion available when and/or if I have children. I would not want them to have the problems I have had and I know some of them are possibly genetic. --- I [i][b]WOULD[/b][/i] have posted this four to five hours ago if _someone_ didn't have a shifty boards..!!! To late at night to complain... *Stumbles off* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B]Though your post was very good I believe that fact is wrong. Personally I know someone who "decided" to be gay, and I have heard of others. It is not a purely chemical thing. Though other gay people I know say that it wasn't that way. So I don't think you can make such a broad statement. [/B][/QUOTE] This person did not decide to become homosexual, rather they chose to reveal and adhere to feelings that had previously existed or suddenly surfaced. Homosexuality is inherent. It's neither optional or changeable. People can't choose to be attracted to one another sexually. I [i]choose[/i] what I want to eat for breakfast. I can choose pancakes over cereal. I can't [i]choose[/i] my sexuality in the morning. If we could choose to be gay, everyone would be bisexual. And you have to ask yourself, would all of this ignorance and discrimination exist if that were the case--if homosexuality was a choice? Discrimination stems from difference. Homosexuality wouldn't be different if it were optional. I don't think that Transtic Nerve should just accept discrimination either. Discrimination is the deprivation of rights. Just because people are ignorant, doesn't mean he should be passive and live as a second class citizen. Gokents--I wasn't really disagreeing with everything you said. Your initial definition of discrimination was off, but that wasn't the issue. The main point of my post was to prove that some prejudice exists in everyone, including yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duo Maxwell Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B]Um, this is off topic but personally I don't think "Playing God" is such a bad thing. I personal want that opinion available when and/or if I have children. I would not want them to have the problems I have had and I know some of them are possibly genetic.[/B][/QUOTE] I don't like the idea of playing God, there was this movie (can't remember what it's called) and its about the future society. They could genetically control what their children look like and most of them had blonde hair and blue eyes, these were considered the "better half" and they discrominated against people with different hair and things like that. Do you see anyone discriminating someone for having hazel eyes and brown hair? They didn't ask for it, or choose to have it. So if its alright to discriminate against homosexuals, why not people with brown hair? (no offense to anyone with brown hair) Sure there's a lot of people with brown hair so that means it's pretty stupid to descriminate aginst them, but do you realise how many homosexuals there are? Alot and really we should accept and apreciate differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=#808080]Charles is right on both points. Nobody decides to be gay -- they just decide whether or not they want to have a relationship and/or make their feelings public. And yes, of course, Transtic and others should not just accept discrimination or hatred. No human being on Earth should. It's all very well to say "it's going to happen so just accept it", but that's really incredibly easy to say if you are not suffering from discrimination. Ignorance and prejudice should always be fought, if society is every to advance beyond these issues.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 CWB, I don't know what to say. I remember what happened to him and it did happen but I guess any thing I say would be crushed by "fact" so I wont. :D Though many people live as second-class citizens, there is nothing they can do about it. I accept discrimination for some thing I can't change and had no choice in because I know there is no way to change it, I don't live in a dream world. Why shouldn't TN just because he's gay. Are gay people special now? Why wont every one else just get on with their lives. You can?t change society, you maybe able to change one or two people?s minds but in the end it makes no difference. So as I say, why bother. [Added] The movie is called Gatica(sp?), or some thing like that Duo. [quote][i]Jamez[/i] Ignorance and prejudice should always be fought[/i] [/quote] And how should I, or any others in any bad circumstances/gay, when every one around is constantly putting you down? You can't fight all your life. It'll kill you, you can't handle losing so much fighting people just to be accepted. Though if you have an example of some one I?m sure they?d be a good inspiration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=#808080]Cloricus, really, how inane do the posts have to get? Nobody is saying that gay people are special. It surprises me that [i]you[/i] of all people are quite happy to lay back and let discrimination happen because you're too lazy to do anything about it. That's fine for you; you're not being discriminated against based on who you are. But for those who [i]are[/i] discriminated against, the reality of the situation is far different. It's not acceptable to be treated as something less than human. By your standards, black people in the 60's should never have fought for equal rights. And by your standards, aboriginals should never have fought for the right to vote. [i]Someone[/i] has to stand up for themselves at some point in time. It surprises me that you would simply allow people to insult your basic humanity; that fact alone indicates that you have no idea how it feels.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B]Why wont every one else just get on with their lives. You can?t change society, you maybe able to change one or two people?s minds but in the end it makes no difference. So as I say, why bother.[/B][/QUOTE] Heh.. I'm sure there were lots of people who said the same thing about black people in the 60s. But look at how people have changed since then.. sure, we're no-where near ideal just yet, but the point is the change has been for the better.. the only problem is there are always far more pessimists than enthusiasts, when it comes to changing society. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i] [B][Added] The movie is called Gatica(sp?), or some thing like that Duo. [/B][/QUOTE] yeah, Gattaca, it is.. I only know the correct spelling because it's spelled with only G A T C, which are the four main nucleic acids in DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Deus, I never thought of that! You learn some thing interesting every day. :D Good point about the 60's but I wasn't there, and I don't think at the moment society really wants to change much. At the moment it?s nice and stable. [quote][i]Jamez[/i] That's fine for you; you're not being discriminated against based on who you are. But for those who are discriminated against, the reality of the situation is far different.[/quote] What are you saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=#808080]I am saying that for those who [i]are[/i] in a minority, the situation is different. It affects their daily lives. A straight white person can never understand that type of descrimination. And that is why, for someone who is in a situation less fortunate than our own, the idea of simply giving up is not an option. If you give up, you have absolutely no chance of your civil rights being granted or society improving.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duo Maxwell Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 He's saying that you're fine with standing by and not caring cause you aren't the one getting hurt. You don't know how much guts it takes to tell people if you're Bi or Gay. It's a scary thing and because of narrow minded people like you those that do "come out" get rejected and descriminated against. No one has the right to judge people, only God has that power. You aren't God, so don't judge what you don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Duo, wrong thing to say. You've judged me. And I have to say you got it exactly the opposite to what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=#808080]I don't think anyone has judged you, Cloricus. Rather, people have judged your actions. You're the one who is telling us that gays shouldn't fight for their rights and basic human dignity. I don't know how you can defend that.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [font=gothic][color=crimson]Don't start on how much you get payed out Cloricus. It's entirely itrelevant, and entirely different. And there is a hell of a lot of difference between judging someone and presenting a conclusion after evidence has presented. You have come along and posted a series of intolerant, "changing takes too much effort, to hell with it" style things, and you're surprised you get a reaction like that? What did you expect? Perhaps for people to agree with you because you are, as James so aptly put it, a straight white person.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 I don't defend it; I just say there is not point. I know what its like to get "Discriminated" against every day. That is the conclusion I've come to. "Why bother." Many other people I know have come to the same conclusion by them selves. Why would you waste your time fighting for some thing your not going to achieve, sure it might help future generations but why wear yourself out when you could just get on with your life and get used to every thing the way it is. [quote]Harlequin Don't start on how much you get payed out Cloricus. It's entirely relevant, and entirely different. And there is a hell of a lot of difference between judging someone and presenting a conclusion after evidence has presented. You have come along and posted a series of intolerant, "changing takes too much effort, to hell with it" style things, and you're surprised you get a reaction like that? What did you expect? Perhaps for people to agree with you because you are, as James so aptly put it, a straight white person.[/quote] For the first part you really don't know me so you can't make that judgement. As for the rest yes it is my fault, I'm very bad at expressing how I feel. Though you know what they say, "Practice makes perfect." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [font=gothic][color=crimson]Hmmm. So you think I should give in to the hicks and get a haircut eh.... There's a hell of a lot of difference between a few choice insults and discrimination Cloricus. People give up when they get the sames things hurled at them day after day (such as me. I got bored though). If it actually starts to affect your life, then by combating it you are not simply doing something that "might help future generations", you are engaging in an act of self defense. On a human, social, and indeed legal level. If you choose to give up because a bunch of idiots at one small school have found it fun to bait you, go ahead. Even money says when the 10 year reunion rolls around, we'll all know who's ended up a drug addicted wacko because they couldn't handle the pressure. Try actually living life for yourself, rather than letting other people's words push you around.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=#808080]Harlequin is absolutely right. There is a massive difference between your average insult and discrimination based on your very humanity. If someone calls you an idiot constantly, that's different from being told that you're not natural and that you don't deserve to be equal to everyone else.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [font=gothic][color=crimson][Edit]Even if you are discriminated against, that's no excuse for a bigoted opinion. It's even worse in fact, as you should know better.[/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=red] OK Cloricus, if you want to live your life that way, be my guest. This is enough about this. This thread is about homosexuality, not how Cloricus decides to live his life. If this thread remains as off topic as it seems to always be going, then I believe I will make the decision to close it. And I don't want to do that. This thread has some good points to it and good discussion.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [color=#808080]Well, now we're talking about descrimination in general (though mostly related to homosexuality). I don't consider that to be off topic, in the sense that the thread is moving in a natural course of discussion. But if it becomes a running commentary on Cloricus' life, then it is most certainly moving in the wrong direction.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i] [B][color=#808080]Well, now we're talking about descrimination in general (though mostly related to homosexuality). I don't consider that to be off topic, in the sense that the thread is moving in a natural course of discussion. But if it becomes a running commentary on Cloricus' life, then it is most certainly moving in the wrong direction.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE] [color=red] Yeah, that's what meant. Discrimination in general is fine for this thread, but enough about Cloricus.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [Edited] As for Discrimination in general that?s a very big topic, and I still think the same. Though if any does have a better way of thinking about existence could they let me know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlequin Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [font=gothic][color=crimson]I'll just point out here that I have no interest in Cloricus's life whatsoever, and was merely using whatever ground he stood on to illustrate a point. Anyway, enough about that. On to topic: Cloricus, you're simply moving back to the idea that because people have a small dislike for you, it's discrimination. I'll freely admit that you quite often get on my nerves, and that I act somewhat coldly towards you. But the question is, why do I do this? Because of some integral part of your being? Or because you quite often go out of your way to annoy me? If I met you on the street, I would have nothing against you. I would walk right by without taking a second glance. But because of the way you act towards me, I take measures to make sure you realise I dislike it. Discrimination simply comes down to bigotry. I know it's already been said a few times, but I think it needs to be reiterated. [/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 [edited] bleh, couldn't be bothered arguing. Save it for school, good way to waste lunchtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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