I am the center of the universe

[Harry]

For the sake of arguement let us define the universe as all that exists, including "empty" space.

To make you believe me I must first prove that the universe is indeed infinite. If however you already hold that belief then skip ahead to the next paragraph. Now, you who doubt must bare with me a little longer. To begin with let us accept that if the universe is not infinite then it must be finite, we must discard the notion of a third choice because it is an idea we cannot begin to discribe. Therefore let us not waste time with things beyond our comprehension. Now, I will prove to you, beyond a resonable doubt, that the universe CAN'T be finite. For if it were finite then the edge of the universe would have a barrier. Now, such an idea is illogical because barriers devide things. This would mean that there was something on the other side of the edge. Infinite Space + Infinite Time = Infinite Matter If you cannot accept that then I am sorry for having wasted your time. Unfortunately for you though belief doesn't define reality (aside from personal reality) Anyways, if you now endorse the infinite universe theory then please continue on.

As I begin to write the second paragraph I realize that it will be rather brief. Either you will see the logic in my statement or you won't. I have no hope of swaying you with excessive discussion. Ok? Well, with an infinite universe how can we find the center? Easy, everywhere is the center. Need I point out that no matter where you are in an infinite universe you are surrounded on all sides by the infinite. Therefore I must be the center of the universe, no matter my location. I suppose that would mean that you are too...but I called dibs so....

[Chaos]

Wrong once more. Let's say you move right to the edge of the universe, which, according to you, should still be expanding. Well, it's expanding at most likely past the speed of light, but there is still that area on that you're away from. The best I can do is to put it in terms of a circle.

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]Actually, in an infinate space, there is no center. To have a center, a space has to have a defined shape and measurements to be able to have a center at all.[/color]

[Chaos]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathKnight [/i]
[B][color=crimson]Actually, in an infinate space, there is no center. To have a center, a space has to have a defined shape and measurements to be able to have a center at all.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]


That too. I was just trying to be simplistic and not add all of that scientific ******** in it. Good man.

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Medra [/i]
[B]Wrong once more. Let's say you move right to the edge of the universe, which, according to you, should still be expanding. Well, it's expanding at most likely past the speed of light, but there is still that area on that you're away from. The best I can do is to put it in terms of a circle. [/B][/QUOTE]
You will still have infinite going away from you at every direction though.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]Dude, lay off the herb. It is making you dwell way to hard on an issue that man cannot yet comprehend. But, for arguments sake, I will ask you a couple questions. If the universe is expanding, how can it be infinite in size? If it keeps growing, it has to be expanding past finite boundaries. And if you are the center of the infinite, the that means that infinite space has a designated begining and end, or shape.[/color]

[Kent]

Actually I have had a theory of my own about this same idea and its close to harry's.

My take on this is that the universe isn't really expanding.

It is actually just that everytime humans figure out how to look further out, we see something new.

We can not find a "wall" or limit to the universe, so we can not say that the universe itself is growing.

All we can do is take a look at what we know is out there, place it on some sort of coordinate plain and then watch to see if it moves.

If it moves, that merely indincates movment of said object, not a growing of the universe itself.

I basically believe that there is a god, he is in control of powers humans will never understand and the infinite nature of the universe is an example of that.

I believe that we see something new and further away everytime we can look further than we did before.

The biggest problem with discussions like these are that even the Phd. holding scientist who theorize on this subject are split down the middle, one side believing the universe is expanding, one believe it is collapsing.

Everyone has a different opinion, but the fact stands that no matter who you are or how educated you are... this subject is pretty much up for grabs.

And those scientist I just mentioned... they should be working on cancer, aids, and fossil fuel replacments... not this crap.

[Red]

[quote]My take on this is that the universe isn't really expanding.[/quote]

[b][color=003399]In my opinion it still is. The Big Bang was obviously an explosion of incredible magnitude, so the forces would still be felt now, and in the future. I think that eventually the universe will collapse in on itself, and the whole process will repeat itself over and over.[/b][/color]

[quote]And those scientist I just mentioned... they should be working on cancer, aids, and fossil fuel replacments... not this crap.[/quote]

[b][color=003399]If the Universe collapsed in on itself, there wouldn't be anything, or anyone to research. :)

I agree with Heaven's Cloud's perception completely, the Universe has to be expanding past finite boundaries.[/b][/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

A line consists of points which are finite. Points can be bisected over and over again, yet a line is never ending this a line cannot be made of points.
~Zeno (of course that has nothing to do with anything really)

Anyway, this is for scientist who go to school their whole lives and know more about one star than you do about everything. Which means, you shouldn't even bother wasting your time thinking so much about it because it really doesn't matter. It's not going to make any difference what you think because you have no credibility. Just like me.. or that guy over there... or the other girl in the corner.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]Harry said he doesn't think there [i]is[/i] an edge. He didn't mention the expanding thing.

I don't know if the universe is expanding or infinite or what. If it is finite, I have no clue what would be on the other side. If it were expanding, it would have to be, in a sense, wiping out whatever was on the other side of the "edge" to make room for its growth. It could be nothingness but I don't see how.

& if it's infinite, that's not something the human mind can comprehend at this point. Like the nothingness thing.

I suppose everything could be the center. Who knows?[/color]

[Domon]

Sorry Elite but the Universe is not going to collapse, to collapse in on itself there would need to be a massive black hole or some type of large gravitational pull but since its space there isn't any gravity. So no worries there. But as for the center of the universe thing i have to agree, for there to be a center there must be a defined shape and at this current point we haven't said what shape the universe is so there really can't be a center. That's my opinion.

[Mitch]

[color=red] Harry, this is yet another somewhat pointless thread. We as humankind haven't even begun to understand the great depths and reaches of space, so how [i]in the hell[/i] would you know if the universe is infinite or finite? How the hell are you even one to make such a claim, I mean, there's far more scientests and such that know more about the universe than you'll ever understand.

So basically, what you're saying is another illogical reason. How do you know the universe has a barrier? You don't, there's that reasoning of why the universe is infinite or finite out the door. And who the hell says there's even a [i]barrier[/i] or if there's not if the universe is finite? Exactly my point, all of this is pure throws and stabs at what you could think up in your brain.

Now, I am really really really getting sick of this threads. This one's content I do admit is a little better, but all this is is speculation in this thread. Pure and utter whole speculation. But there is some merit in it, so I will allow it to remain open.

But when you start a thread, please do not say something is this or that. All that is is going to cause multiple people to go against you, thus causing pointless argument. Get my drift? When you start a thread instead rather ask the question, [i]then[/i] say what you do or do not believe. That way the two things are seperated and our fellow members can piece and put in place what they believe.

Your reasoning is always very illogical and uneducted it seems. But you deserve your opinions, as I said.

Don't worry, I'm not mad at you. I'm just getting tired of these opinionated opinions that you just throw at us in every single thread. If you want to get banned, you're certainly on the way.

Now, enough of my bickering. I'll tell you my [i]guess[/i] at how I see the universe. I see it as finite. There has to be an end, no matter how long. Everything ends, and I stand by that notion.

This thread holds much more merit, I'm just mainly saying your opinions are rather unbacked. Most of what I said was for earlier reasons so I may have gone farther than this thread is. Don't take offense by my ways, I'm just getting sick of these controversial threads. [/color]:)

[James]

[color=#808080]I don't think a human being can comprehend the size of the Universe. Just the same as we can't comprehend the size of an atom (or sub-atomic levels).

Scientists do say that the Universe is expanding at a rapid rate. And there is evidence to support that idea.

But really, even if that was the case...even if the Universe has finite boundaries, I don't think it's even worth considering. I doubt that mankind will ever be able to travel fast enough to reach the "edge of the Universe". It will take centuries for mankind to get to the point where we can even exit our own solar system on a regular basis.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#808080]I don't think a human being can comprehend the size of the Universe. Just the same as we can't comprehend the size of an atom (or sub-atomic levels).[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

We can comprehend the [i]size[/i] of an atom just fine, it's just the weird crap that goes on down there that makes it so incomprehensible.. that's why there's a whole different set of physical laws (quantum physics) for things of that order of size.

With Regards to the original post: You can't know beyond [i]any[/i] reasonable doubt that what you are saying is true, because you're working on the assumption of "disregarding anything we can't comprehend as not being there" which is a pretty dumb thing to do, when you're trying to prove something absolutely.

also,

"Infinite Space + Infinite Time = Infinite Matter"

where on earth did you get THAT from?...

Space is a [i]dimension[/i]
Time is a [i]dimension[/i], which is relates to space as "[b]ct[/b] + x + y + z", where "c" is speed of light, "t" is time, and "x, y, z" are spacial dimensions. Essentially, that means Time is exactly the same kind of thing as space.

Matter is [i]not[/i] realted to time OR space. You could have a single atom in an infinite universe, just sitting there on it's own. What you're assuming is that an infinite universe must have a roughly equal density of matter throughout, rather than being concentrated into a finite space.

So there's another wrong assumption.

and, as DeathKnight pointed out, you can't have a centre without defined edges, because the whole nature of an objects centre is to be a kind of mean point with regards to an objects surface (ie being the average point of the object's location).

[James]

[color=#808080]Deus, your post is totally correct.

What I mean by comprehend is that it's difficult to actually get your mind around the idea of an atom. If you say to someone "you can fit one million atoms on a pin head", it's very hard for a human brain to actually comprehend the size of that matter in their mind. Know what I mean? That's probably a terrible way of explaining it, though.

I must admit, I'm not quite sure what Harry's purpose was for creating this thread. The thread itself isn't against the rules or anything, so that isn't my concern. But to me...it just seems like a totally moot question. Trying to define the center of the Universe is utterly impossible, for the reasons mentioned above. And talking about the size of the Universe...it's like saying "how long is a piece of string?"

It's something you really can't answer unless you have certain information -- information that nobody has at this point at least.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#808080]What I mean by comprehend is that it's difficult to actually get your mind around the idea of an atom. If you say to someone "you can fit one million atoms on a pin head", it's very hard for a human brain to actually comprehend the size of that matter in their mind. Know what I mean?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed.. it probably just doesn't seem as hard for me cos I don't hear the pinhead analogy that often.. it's the thing with doing biochemistry as well as physics.. to me an atom is not a great deal smaller than a small-ish molecule, which gets absorbed by a bigger protein molecule, which binds to some small organelle, which passes though some membrane, which is a part of a cell.. or something like that.. it's the fact that there's so many levels down, it doesn't seem such a big jump when you get told about them all..

though now that I think about it, an atom is like, a billionth of of a centimeter in diameter.. and a nucleon (proton or neutron) is about a millionth of that.. which is pretty small..

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#808080]"how long is a piece of string?"[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

10 inches, give or take.. [spoiler]it's all down to how much you're willing to give or take[/spoiler]