Did she have a right?

[Heartless Me]

A few days ago, a student wore a tshirt to school with a picture of president bush on it. Below the picture it said "International Terrorist." the school staff didn't like it very much and they told her to go turn it inside out or go home. She went home. Do you think that they had a right to do that? Tell me why you feel that way.

[Corey]

If your school is like most schools there is a rule against any bad words on clothing.
This shirt obviously didn't have and offensive language on it. Just the opposite in fact. The shirt told the truth. Bush is, by fulfilling all the criteria, an international terrorist. He threatens and, sooner or later, will attack. And he does it away from our boarders.
She had every right to wear that shirt. I would.

And I'm very sad to say this thread looks like it's going to become one big debate about Bush.

[James]

[color=#808080]Oh god, DOK...don't tell me you're one of [i]those[/i] people. lol

It doesn't matter whether or not the message is true. If she wants to wear a t-shirt with an ignorant political message, let her. She is free to publicly embarass herself; it probably would have been more punishment to actually let her wear it. lol

I don't think the school has the right to just force people not to wear that sort of stuff. If it had swearing, yeah...maybe. But if she wants to make a fool of herself, let her.[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

Is this high school or college? I n high school, no she doesn't have the right to wear it. The school can tell you what you can and can't wear under supreme court ruling, however college is something totally different. Unless you're going to a specific college, the school has no right to tell you what to do. You're an adult and all your rights apply.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]As much as I think that the law stinks, a high school has the right to ban clothing that distracts others from learning. While a debate over Bush being a terrorist could be deemed part of the learning process, a math teacher might not find it so constructive.

By the way, you can call Bush a war monger, a self promoter, even a harbringer of the apocalypse, and I would say that you could have a valid argument, but a terrorist is going a bit far. [/color]

[treton_noir]

im sure that the school was trying to avoid a "situation". as TN said, the school may dictate what students wear.

[Cora Jane 2]

Well what type of school is it? High School/College? I presume it is also a public school... but ya know... I dont think there is too much that the student could do. I know that yeah you do have rights, but alot of school have rules that students are to abide by. Some may even have found that shirt offensive. Besides... it's her right to think what she wants.... whether or not others agree with it. Trust me that is my every day life at school... but hey... yeah.. I think it is funny they gave her an option... and the one she chose was to go home... fine she had a nice dy I'm sure... but still... you also have to keep in mind consequesnces of what you do, in this case what she wore. But yeah.. I agree that the school has laws and regulations, and students have to abide by them. Which does occasionally suck.

[Heartless Me]

In my personal opinion it's our constitutional right as americans to wear what we want, it's our freedom of expression and nothing should change that, not schools and not other people. That is an oppression of freedom. I personally wouldn't wear the shirt no matter how much I dislike Bush(and I do dislike him), but she shouldn't have been oppressed by expressing her views and opinions, that isn't right.

[treton_noir]

your rights end where someone else's begin. its the school's right to outline a dress code. their rules apply on the campus. if you think youre being treated unfairly, write your representative.

[nezzyjean]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arikel [/i]
[B]In my personal opinion it's our constitutional right as americans to wear what we want, it's our freedom of expression and nothing should change that, not schools and not other people. That is an oppression of freedom.[/B][/QUOTE]

my teachers tell me that, technically, unless you are 18 or older, your rights are...basically....ummmm...nothing. But I think that EVERYONE should get all the constitutional rights. That really stinks. But technically, the school can keep you from wearing whatever they don't want you to wear. I guess that they were trying to avoid any controversy with other students or teachers who may like Bush...

[Mnemolth]

Okay folks, I'm not sure where you people get this idea that once you're in the school environment all your rights go out the window. That's completely bogus. And anyone that tells you that doesn't know the law.

Of course, here I speak of the law, and I say nothing of the practical consequences, both emotional and financial of launching an appeal through the courts.

It has long been held, since [URL=http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html]Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969)[/URL], that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

[i]Tinker[/i] was a case where three students were suspended for wearing black armbands to protest the Government's policy in Vietnam. They appealed all the way to the Supreme Court, which struck down the School Board policy as unconstitutional, violating the students' rights of free speech. The court concluded that student expression is protected unless it could be shown that a particular behavior would "substantially interfere with the work of the school or impinge upon the rights of other students."

It is true that since [i]Tinker[/i] there as been a tendency to reduce the rights of students and expand the discretion of school authorities. But this fundamental principle still stands. So don't let anyone give you any crap about it being otherwise.

The Supreme Court have ruled that schools can restrict offensive or obscene speech, [URL=http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/firstamendment/bethel.html]Bethel School District No. 403 v. Fraser[/URL]. But calling Bush an "International Terrorist" is not lewd or obscene speech. It may be offensive to some students, but is not generally offensive, such as swear words.

The Supreme Court have also ruled that school officials may regulate school-sponsored activities related to the curriculum if the regulation is "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns", see: [URL=http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hazelwood.html]Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier[/URL]. In this case, the court held that school authorities wre within their rights to censor articles written by students for an official school newspaper about pregnancy and the impact of divorce on teenagers. Why? Because the school newspaper is not an 'open forum', it is not a place for public expression.

*glances at Shyguy*...heheh...

The facilities are only available to a specific segment of the school community, and the production of the newspaper is part of the educational curriculum of the Journalism course. In other words, the facilities of the newspaper are not reserved for communicative purposes but for educational ones, so school authorities have the right to determine what goes in and what is left out.

There is a recent case where the 5th Circuit Appeals Court has held their consitutionality of school uniforms, [i]Canady v. Bossier Parish School Board[/i] (sorry I couldn't find an UNEDITED version of the decision, but I'm sure its around if you look hard enough, plus its not a Supreme Court decision as the three above are). But as the decision by the court itself conceded, school uniforms are a special case, and do not neatly fall with the three categories of [i]Tinker[/i] (political speech), [i]Bethel[/i] (obscene speech) or [i]Hazelwood[/i] (speech within school-sponsored activities). The court did make a point of saying "Words printed on clothing qualify as pure speech and are protected under the First Amendment".

So, do I think the girls should be able to wear her t-shirt? Damn right I do.

Do I think its legal? Absolutely.

The only way the school can get away with it is if they can [i]demonstrate[/i] that the t-shirt creates so much disruption that it "substantially interfere[s] with the work of the school". I can see how they might be able to make such an argument, but it won't be easy. Especially if they have no written school codes on this particular issue to back them up, and especially since I can already see the political backlash if this were taken to the courts.

So yeah, if the girl's parents/guardians wanted to make an issue of it, I'm sure they can, and they will be on firm ground.

And can we finally put to rest all this nonsense about students having no rights? They are restricted but they do exist and are protected by the Consitution.

Not convinced? Here's a couple of primers (though my suggestion is always to go directly to the source and read the actual law cases).

[url]http://www.asbj.com/2001/07/0701schoollaw.html[/url]

[url]http://eric.uoregon.edu/publications/policy_reports/dress_codes/caselaw.html[/url]

[Kent]

Wow, I totally didnt expect that one from tn.

First off, just because you do not find this offensive does not mean it is not offensive.

I find it terrobly offensive and if I had been at school with a person wearing this, I would most likely resorted to verbal abuse and possibly phisical abuse... had it not been a girl.

Keep that in mind if you think this shirt wouldnt have caused trouble or hindered the schools function.

I consider fights to be a problem in any school.

Second, it is a public highschool and for that very reason it is the schools right to not allow her to wear such a shirt.

All of my friends throughout highschool could never wear shirts with items like weed leaves and drug parifanalia on them.

Those shirts have nothing offensive in terms of profanity, yet they obviously have subject matter that is borderline between offensive to some and distracting to others.

Its also important to recognize the distraction factor in this... why can't girls where clothing that is too revealing?
Because it can serve as a distraction.(amongst other reasons)

This shirt would have served as a cause of heated debate/argument in every class.

I also want to point out what another person mentioned and the fact is... this incident will only be noticed because of the leftist ideology it represents.

If this were a shirt with the term baby killer on it and had a picture of an aborted fetus, no one on the left, including the ACLU, would support the persons right to wear it. (only a few who were consistant, which based on his post would include tn, would stick up for the students rights.)

Plus, I dont really want to get into bush and what not, but he is not a terrorist.

I think Im with James on the fact that wearing such a shirt only shows how foolish someone is.

(but if you really think bush is a terrorist, where were your strong words when clinton was in office or any other american president?... including the democrates)

I think it would behoove all of you to go check out a site called brain terminal . com.

It is filled with video footage of the anti-war protesters and just might give you an idea of how stupid those people make themselves look at times.

Bottom line on the subject is that this is a public highschool and the pricipal had every right to send this child home.

Remember that this is not controlling this student in general, it is only keeping control during school.

No one said she couldnt wear such a shirt outside of school.

[Bing]

[size=1][color=darkblue]Well, at my school we have to wear a poxy uniform! On certain days, where you can wear your own clothes though, there are rules. It's not too harsh, but something like that Bush shirt, as somebody has already said, is more likely to get attention from students, not teahcers. At my school, they would get teased and cursed by other students about it. I doubt the teachers would interfere. I do remember hearing the case of a guy being [b]arrested[/b] at school, after walking in wearing a 'Jesus is a c**t' t-shirt! I guess that's pretty explicit, but shouldn't the police be out arresting thieves and murderers, not 'wearers of explicit t-shirts?![/color][/size]

[black cat 2]

i think the girl had every right to wear that shirt at school.

if she was going to d.c. to see the white house it wouldn't be such a good idea.

i think if they can make fun of a president on the radio you can wear a shirt like that.

but on the other hand it could offend other students who like bush.

it also makes the president look like a fool.

but i still think she should be able to exprece her feelings...at least on a shirt. if she wrote "i hate bush" or something like that on her note bookor all over her shirt it would be a different story.

thats how i feel.

i'm sorry if i offended anyone in anyway.

[Shy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mnemolth [/i]
[B]The Supreme Court have also ruled that school officials may regulate school-sponsored activities related to the curriculum if the regulation is "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns", see: [URL=http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hazelwood.html]Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier[/URL]. In this case, the court held that school authorities wre within their rights to censor articles written by students for an official school newspaper about pregnancy and the impact of divorce on teenagers. Why? Because the school newspaper is not an 'open forum', it is not a place for public expression.

*glances at Shyguy*...heheh...[/B][/QUOTE]
[size=1]I already know that all too well, you'd be susprised about the types of stories that we have cut over the years due to concerns about how school oficials might react.

At my school we are not required to wear uniforms, but there are some limits on what students can (and cannot) wear. Early last year there was a bit of controversey when the school no longer allowed open-toed sandals to be worn. About 90% of the country is in such a climate hat wearing those would be ridiculous, but in sunny Southern California the trendy thing to do is wear sandals. Anyway, it was decided that the school has the right to make us wear whatever they want, so nobody should be complaining about it.

And anyone who is wearing a "Bush is an international terrorist" shirt is asking for controversey, honestly.

-Shy[/size]

[GinnyLyn]

I remember having a debate about the 1st Ammendment rights, and thing that stuck out the most is that, yeah, your rights end when they start infringing on someone else's.

The fact of the matter is, until we are all mindless clones of each other that bounce balls in perfect rhythm ([i]A Wrinkle in Time[/i]'s Camazotz, anyone?), we will always be infringing on each other's rights. It's like asking for world peace--as long as we have our differenting views, it ain't gonna happen.

What I see here is the girl's rights, and the school's rights. And the school can scream louder, with more people to back it up, than the girl can.

Does this mean I agree with the girl's wearing the shirt? Not really. Yeah, I'm a bit offended by it. And quite frankly, I think she could have brought this point up some other way that would result in honest, frank, and thoughtful conversation/debate, than having everyone point at her and either cheer her on, or jeer at her.

It goes back to stereotypes, how people too quickly affix a name to someone because they only see one action, but don't take time to research into the matter. I feel she stereotyped herself quite nicely. Once again, her actions prompted instant emotion reaction that will be forgotten tomorrow, instead of inducing thoughtful topic talking (.oO;.) that could improve people's abilities to understand what the Hades is going on in the real world.

Or maybe she did just that, by us all talking about it. Though we are focusing on her rights, and not on Bush himself (and thankfully, that is where the thread should stay, as pointed out earlier). Bush's stance is a topic for another thread.

*steps off soapbox and trundles off*

[Manic Webb]

All opinions of President Bush aside (I'm getting so tired of talking about him), that t-shirt was going to be distracting. If you were in class and you noticed the girl next to you was wearing that shirt, wouldn't you be a bit distracted by the message it was bringing across?

Did that girl have the right to wear that shirt? Yes.
At school? No.

It boiled down to school policy, and that shirt had "pay no attention to the poorly paid public school teacher in front of the class room" written all over it.

She was given two choices; flip your shirt insideout or just walk away. Not that an inside-out t-shirt with Bush's face on it and some backward lettering wouldn't have also been a distraction, but she chose to go home to stand by her principles. I won't say whether it was right or wrong (because I honestly don't feel like going there), but she stood by what she believed in. In the end, it all boils down to the definition of "terrorist."

[GinnyLyn]

And here's another thought--I know some kids will try [i]anything[/i] to get out of going to school. Does anyone else think that she might've not been communicating her thoughts so much as trying to get out of being stuck in a place that doesn't agree with her?

[PiroMunkie]

[color=indigo][size=1]If a few friends of mine can get away with wearing a band shirt that has the two Columbine students on it with the words "Shoot the kids at school" on it, she should be able to get away with calling Bush an "International Terrorist".[/color][/size]

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]Wow, I totally didnt expect that one from tn.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Is that good or bad?...

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PiroMunkie [/i]
[B][color=indigo][size=1]If a few friends of mine can get away with wearing a band shirt that has the two Columbine students on it with the words "Shoot the kids at school" on it, she should be able to get away with calling Bush an "International Terrorist".[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE] [SIZE=1]That would get anyone at my school suspended. :p[/SIZE]

[Orien_Xel]

[color=blue]Wow. I think that she had the right to wear that. If it is her opinion, she can say and express it if she doesn't resort to offensive methods. (i.e. spray painting a building) I actually agree with her. But, thats all I have to say.[/color]

[Kent]

Oh, that is good with out a doubt in that you are being accurate about interpretation of the laws stating why and when a public highschool has the right to "deal" with a matter such as a students clothing.

It is a very good thing indeed... It shows me that you aren't making this out to be about general censorship or your personal opinion of W. Bush.

I believe that my opinions and support of my opinions in my first reponse should be enough of an input on this subject for me to not respond again.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]I suppose technically she should have had the right to wear it, but that's really up to the school. In this case, the shirt could cause problems.

For every person who is radically against the war, there's someone who radically supports it. This could lead to disruption & violence. Some people consider an anti-Bush opinion to be pro-terrorism.

Keep in mind that the some of the people I'm speaking of are the same people who would beat up or harass another person just because they're Muslim. Rationality is not a factor here, & the school is trying to prepare for anything that may arise.

Now, if she was forced to remove it because the principal didn't [i]agree[/i] with it, that's totally different (even though it was not the brightest idea in the world to wear it in the first place).[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]What's this about, most of the world considers Bush to be a terrorist and fear him.

Yes James he does fill [i]all[/i] the criteria to be a terrorist.
(Even the one about having a religious crusade, lol.)

He [b]is[/b] the most dangerous man on the planet.
You cannot argue with that, he has at his moments notice control of the world?s biggest (unchecked up on by the un, what hypocrites you Americans are.) array of long-range nuclear and chemical weapons.

And he is advancing on countries and trying to corner them, they make an attack on America soil (which they are smart enough to say they wont) and their country wont exist any more.

This thread is just showing that the people who support bush and the people who support saddam and bin laden act exactly the same and are blinded by what?s going on around them. (Thought being part of the west I'd support bush over saddam or bin laden.)

Just because he is "the leader of the west" doesn't exclude him from being a terrorist, or do you people only thing Arabs can be bad?


I'm not on either side of this, I'm just making this post to defend that persons right to wear a t-shirt that I wouldn't hesitate to wear. (It'd be a good joke one :P) People should not be criticizing her saying the t-shirt is a lie, because it is in no way wrong.
Don?t take my post as an anti-bush post. Read it better.[/color]