Did she have a right?

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i]
[B]Oh, that is good with out a doubt in that you are being accurate about interpretation of the laws stating why and when a public highschool has the right to "deal" with a matter such as a students clothing.

It is a very good thing indeed... It shows me that you aren't making this out to be about general censorship or your personal opinion of W. Bush.

I believe that my opinions and support of my opinions in my first reponse should be enough of an input on this subject for me to not respond again. [/B][/QUOTE]

Naw, I don't think Bush is exactly doing the right thing but... I don't think wearing a T-Shirt is gonna do anything but put yourself in danger. Which I think is stupid... which is why you don't see me wearing one. I also don't support the idea that kids should have much, if any rights. Once you graduate high school it's fine, but during HS I think many kids are still learning, and since I didn't even have Gov class till 12th grade, I don't think alot of kids know what they are talking about or doing. So i don't support them freely speaking out in such a way (as this example provides, others I may tend to disagree with that on), esspecially at school, where you don't have any rights as it is... Because once the school cuts down on this, they will everything else. And that ruins it for the rest.

Till someone can grasp the full extent of politics or war or whatever, I don't think they need to be wearing something like this. Especially at a time like this... and especially when she doesn't have any credibility to do so. She's just a person with no power as one person... thats why she was sent home. She has no power. Whatever the thing she might have been wearing... if she wanted to make a stance, she should have done something more. But then again, maybe she was just trying to do something she wanted to do... so... whatever floats her boat. Although I think school was deffinantly the wrong place for such action.

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]This shirt was from T-Shirt hell, as far as I can gather. They are the only ones I know that make shirts like that.

Though have any of you thought that it was just a joke, or the only clean thing on her floor or some thing else like that?

Why are you all being so harsh when what the T-shirt is right, she has the right to wear it and it?s her choice any way?[/color]

[Kent]

Wow, "dont make my post an anti-bush post"...

That is all that need to be said about how you explain all your views.

That and the "Im not on either side of this... Im just defending..."

Sounds like your awefully confused because out of both of your essays consisted of 90% personal politics and about 10% issue realated opinions.

Sadly, even your opinion related points were in no way paying attention to the rules and regulations of general conduct in a public school.

I also like what tn said, kids that age have no place in politics.

I also think that this person (boy or girl) was simply trying to get attention, act cool, and project an image of defiance.

Foolish kids...

[Manic Webb]

Cloricus does have some kind of a point, there. The t-shirt might've been a joke. I remember my HS economics teacher had a morphed picture of Bush dressed as Bin Laden on her whiteboard in front of the class. It was kinda funny to look at, really. It was sort of a joke. Of course, I'm not saying that's the definite reason she wore the shirt. I'm just not ruling out that possibility. Of course, the chances of that are slim, aren't they?

[DKsAngel]

ehhh i think the whole shirt thing is getting outrageous, this boy wore a mario shirt with mario on a mushroom and he had a necklace with a tiny tiny mushroom in it, it was cool. but the school took it the wrong way and took the shirt and necklace from it, he did get it back but it wasnt ment to be taken in a wrong way like that which is a bad thing and I think they are going too far with this, the kid got onto the star program which is like a school probation but he also did other things so lol XD; but anyways thats not the point, the way they took that is like when someone says something innocent and us taking it and turning it into a sexual way. its not ment to be..so why should they take it? tsk..its gone too far, I think.

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]Gokents, as I said in my post I do want it to turn in to a flame bush thread. I had no intention of my post making it one as I said. If you want me to explain my view and if you can't think how that post is relevant please pm me and I can explain it to you.

Also you think that any one under 18 has no rights at all?
I don't know American school but I do know that Australia school let us act the way we want and do not censor simple jokes or personal protests. (On the most part.)

As I said in my last post, it could have just been the cleanest thing on her floor.

DKsAngel yeah I hear you there! Way out of control, just look at how this thread is going for an example.[/color]

[Orien_Xel]

[color=blue]Gokents, I do not need to tell you, or anyone else the logic or reasoning behiind my opinion. I never tried to sway you to my side. Just because you disagree doesn't give you the right to say that I am not well informed, or that my opinion is wrong. Techinically, you didn't say any of those things, but you have said them in other furoms, and I am tired of it. You constantly deride any other viewpoint other then you're own as "wrong". And I think you should take back that "Foolish kid" thing. We kids are the future of your pathetic world. You adults are the ones who have screwed it up so much. Why are "kids" any less intelligent then adults? Just because we're not as old as you are? Many of the people that belong to Otaku Boards are kids. How dare you call us foolish.[/color]

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]I feel the same as Orien.
I know that some times my posts aren?t as good as yours gokents, but you are much older.
Which makes them incomparable.[/color]

[Harry]

She just wanted to find something to ***** about. She knew she would have to turn it inside out.

[Kent]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i]
[B][color=blue]Gokents, I do not need to tell you, or anyone else the logic or reasoning behiind my opinion. I never tried to sway you to my side. Just because you disagree doesn't give you the right to say that I am not well informed, or that my opinion is wrong. Techinically, you didn't say any of those things, but you have said them in other furoms, and I am tired of it. You constantly deride any other viewpoint other then you're own as "wrong". And I think you should take back that "Foolish kid" thing. We kids are the future of your pathetic world. You adults are the ones who have screwed it up so much. Why are "kids" any less intelligent then adults? Just because we're not as old as you are? Many of the people that belong to Otaku Boards are kids. How dare you call us foolish.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I know you take my opinions to be condensending of your own...

I do not mean for this to be the case.

Infact, none of your words in this thread have brought up argumentitive feelings from myself.

Most important in addressing your post above qouted, is the idea of "you adults."

This is a term you should think about.

Being that I am only a young adult at the age of 21, you should take into account who was running and changing the country you grew up in. (assuming anyone reading this is american, I can not speak on issues pretaining to the social and political affairs of other nations.)

If you are as old or older than me the past has been about a 50/50 split between the political left and right. If you are younger it has been even more dominatly biased towards the left.

I have not at all been responsible for the current situations, but I refuse to ignore them.

This term I used, "foolish kids" was rash, but was a reaction to the idea that this girl was not doing something inappropiate.

Unfortunatly, the public schools are not a place for protest.

This particular thread should only be addressing the right of a school to "deal" with the students actions and appearance.

Yet for an odd reason, this thread has become tied with the current political issues that have plauged the boards in the past.

This ideological split that exist between many members and I has created an atmosphere of hostility.

I believe that much of your reaction to my "foolish kids..." comment was out of anger and not reason.

I do not put down on people who express their own opinion simply because I believe they are wrong.

I only address anything that is of a factual matter, which any member of the boards may have misqouted.

When I attack what has been said by any one member of the boards, I am attacking what this person has said, not them as a person.

This idea of personal attacking became more obvious to me earlier when people of a different political view mentioned the idea of "gee, Im agreeing with gokents... is this good or bad"?

I knew at that point that the previous engagments were leading people to expect certain comments or opinions.

I wondered if these people realized that we both want the same result of "the better good for man kind"?

I know that most of us want this sort of goal, but we all have different ideas and approaches to achive this end goal.

When I dealt with cloricus's comments I addressed the simple fact that he had contradicted his own words.

This "t-shirt rights issue" is much more black and white than most would make it out to be.

The fact of the matter is that the school not only has the right to create a priciple, but it also has the obligation to provide a stable learning enviroment.

No matter what your feelings are on the message of the shirt, the message of the shirt remains the same and that message is offensive to some.

Offensive material leads directly to hostilities.

This compramises the stability of the enviroment and therfore must be removed.

This is why school uniforms are good.

This issue is not a general censorship issue.

Your comments (orein) were directed at myself and not the issue.

I'm sorry if you have felt offended in the past,
-kent
--------------------------------------------
Cloricus,
you may be austraillian, but that only gives you more of a right to tell me if the austraillian schools deal with problems like weekly bomb threats (in towns like my own hometown, williamsburg, Va.) or if schools on the other side of the world have to deal with gang rivalries carrying over into the public schools.

Conformity and uniformity may be a horrible idea to most, but uniformity is also a key to productivity.

At the ages of public grade school, we must raise our levels of productivity if we wish to better our society.

[The Vampire: Ed]

I just don't think it's right that people have to change anything they wear as long as they aren't in high school while wearing something with foul language on it or anything with pictures of men or women revealing themselves. She should not have been made to change it.

That shirt she was wearing had nothing wrong with it, the teachers just didn't like it. Freedom of speech right? Well, all though she's not talking the shirt is still a form of speech and may be a reflection of her opinions. I think making her change the shirt is abusing her freedom of speech. But then again I think saying we have the freedom of speech in this country is a crock of s**t. It's just there to make out country sound more civilized that it really is, but whatever I don't really care about politics and such.

People just shouldn't have to change their clothing because others don't like it.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Vampire: Ed [/i]
[B]I just don't think it's right that people have to change anything they wear as long as they aren't in high school while wearing something with foul language on it or anything with pictures of men or women revealing themselves. She should not have been made to change it.

That shirt she was wearing had nothing wrong with it, the teachers just didn't like it. Freedom of speech right? Well, all though she's not talking the shirt is still a form of speech and may be a reflection of her opinions. I think making her change the shirt is abusing her freedom of speech. But then again I think saying we have the freedom of speech in this country is a crock of s**t. It's just there to make out country sound more civilized that it really is, but whatever I don't really care about politics and such.

People just shouldn't have to change their clothing because others don't like it. [/B][/QUOTE]

When you're under 18, and especially in a public High School, thats certainly never the case. Thats why they have dress codes many places. The fact is, if she was under 18, she doesn't have any right to free speech. She's not an adult, she can't vote, she is still basically proporty of her parents, and proporty has no rights. I mean, sure you get the basic human rights and other live, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness rights, but nothing else. Kids have the right to a trial. I dunno if the Miranda rights apply to children or not.... they have the right to a lawyer. They have the right to exercize the 5th amendment if they do so please in a court of law, hell thats about the only place they have rights. But then again, thats pretty much the last place you want to be.

The supreme court has ruled, as stated in one of those ridiculously long posts no one readys anyway, that School and Military have certain aspects to them that where you might have rights in real life that don't apply. Which is why if you have a car on HS grounds, they can search it for NO reason what so ever. They can do it for kicks and giggles, but if you were out on the road, they can't do that, legally at least. Same with the way you dress and the way you speak. They have been given complete control over you at school. Which is exactly why it's perfectly legal and right for them to send that girl home... whether morals have anything to do withit is not the case. They had their own right to do it and they did.

[Fall]

At our school, there's a policy that says "students or teachers may not damage/destroy, or interfere with others property". Now in my view, people's clothing are people's property. Yet still teachers tell pupils to change, or send them home if they're wearing "offensive" or "out-of-the-ordinary" clothing on out of uniform days. Actually happened last week when 3 students were sent home because of that reason.

Unless there's a rule or policy that says otherwise, no-one has the right in the school to people's clothing. They can wear what they want. Not something else just because some people find it offensive.

[James]

[color=#808080]Basically, I think the school does have the right to create (and to enforce) a dress code. If I go to a restaurant that is suit-and-tie only, and I wear a ballerina outfit and they throw me out...I'm not going to say "OMG! You're violating my first ammendment rights! Call the police!"

Basically, the school has the right to make that judgement. However, I personally believe (regardless of whatever laws are in place) that if the school does not enforce uniforms...then whatever message you have on your t-shirt shouldn't matter. I mean, if you had a message that threatened a specific teacher or had swearing...maybe that would be different.

But if you want to put some ill-informed political tagline on your t-shirt, I don't think the school should necessarily get involved. Really, it doesn't matter. As I've said before, if the girl wanted to make a fool of herself, that's fine. Let her bear the consequences of that.

Whether or not she chooses to bring up her ideology in the appropriate forum (such as a class discussion on politics) or not is really not relevant I think. [/color]

[Guest cloricus]

Hay TN you make me glade that my country is a signatory to the UN deck of human rights.

At my school we have a strict dress code, and you are allowed certain "violations" but every one knows the rules. So it works fine.

If your going to have a school where you can wear what you want you cannot then turn around and say ?you cant wear that.?

[The Vampire: Ed]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve[/i]
[b]When you're under 18, and especially in a public High School, thats certainly never the case. Thats why they have dress codes many places. The fact is, if she was under 18, she doesn't have any right to free speech. She's not an adult, she can't vote, she is still basically proporty of her parents, and proporty has no rights. I mean, sure you get the basic human rights and other live, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness rights, but nothing else. Kids have the right to a trial. I dunno if the Miranda rights apply to children or not.... they have the right to a lawyer. They have the right to exercize the 5th amendment if they do so please in a court of law, hell thats about the only place they have rights. But then again, thats pretty much the last place you want to be.

The supreme court has ruled, as stated in one of those ridiculously long posts no one readys anyway, that School and Military have certain aspects to them that where you might have rights in real life that don't apply. Which is why if you have a car on HS grounds, they can search it for NO reason what so ever. They can do it for kicks and giggles, but if you were out on the road, they can't do that, legally at least. Same with the way you dress and the way you speak. They have been given complete control over you at school. Which is exactly why it's perfectly legal and right for them to send that girl home... whether morals have anything to do withit is not the case. They had their own right to do it and they did.[/b][/quote]

Yes, I know you're right. But I still find it sad that one is forced to change an article of clothing because the teachers do not like it. James, and I share the same opinion on this from reading his last post. I mean maybe since she doesn't have the usual rights an adult would, I still think it is not right.

Foul language, nudity, or something such as that should not be accepted. But as long as her shirt did not include such things, she should not be made to change it or go home. But I guess that has to be left as an opinion.

[Transtic Nerve]

Well I haven't said what I personally think about the shirt myself, and I'll leave it out of this discussion. I'm just syaing what happened and why it happened... and why it's allowed to happen. I think I'll leave my personal opinion out of this one... I dunno what it is anyway... while one part tells me it's funny because it can be true, the next tells me she was incredibly stupid to wear such a shirt to school... well I guess i just gave my opinion eh?... so much for that logic.

[Mnemolth]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]When you're under 18, and especially in a public High School, thats certainly never the case. Thats why they have dress codes many places. The fact is, if she was under 18, she doesn't have any right to free speech. She's not an adult, she can't vote, she is still basically proporty of her parents, and proporty has no rights. I mean, sure you get the basic human rights and other live, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness rights, but nothing else. Kids have the right to a trial. I dunno if the Miranda rights apply to children or not.... they have the right to a lawyer. They have the right to exercize the 5th amendment if they do so please in a court of law, hell thats about the only place they have rights. But then again, thats pretty much the last place you want to be.

The supreme court has ruled, as stated in one of those ridiculously long posts no one readys anyway, that School and Military have certain aspects to them that where you might have rights in real life that don't apply. Which is why if you have a car on HS grounds, they can search it for NO reason what so ever. They can do it for kicks and giggles, but if you were out on the road, they can't do that, legally at least. Same with the way you dress and the way you speak. They have been given complete control over you at school. Which is exactly why it's perfectly legal and right for them to send that girl home... whether morals have anything to do withit is not the case. They had their own right to do it and they did. [/B][/QUOTE]

It'd be nice if people with strong opinions would take the time to actually be informed and know what the hell they're on about... :rolleyes:

[Heartless Me]

Wow, I had no idea I would make such a popular thread! Thank you all for your opinions and views. I'm glad I was able to put up a thread that got so many replies. It's not often that I'm able to get a really good subject going.