Sandy Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Deus Ex, you must realize that the things you've listed are just opinions, a way to see what happened, you can't expect us atheists or members of other religions to instantly buy what you said... Though I doubt that was your intention, anyway... :blush: But anyway, I've been reading my religion schoolbooks (I studied religion because I was still part of the Lutheran Church before last summer) for the Matriculation Examination (the test you take in Finland when you leave Senior Secundary School... well, long story), and the main idea in them is that believers and non-believers can never reach concensus in this matter. Some people can change opinions, yes, but that only shows the opinions hadn't been very strong. So, what I'm saying is that there is no use trying to convince others that what YOU believe is right. People believe in various stuff, and I personally despise people who FORCE their believes to others. So what if you believe they're going to hell? You can never know for sure! The keys to this discussion is tolerance and acceptance. If you really believe in what ever you believe in, you should be happy with that, and not worry about everybody elses' believings - I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing. I personally am sure of my believes, and I respect EVERY person who are too, whatever the belief might be. Pounder on this: "Nobody likes hypocracy!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]Deus Ex, you must realize that the things you've listed are just opinions, a way to see what happened, you can't expect us atheists or members of other religions to instantly buy what you said... Though I doubt that was your intention, anyway... :blush:[/B][/QUOTE] Actually they were facts.. though it's difficult to prove what I saw. The opinion part is whether or not you conclude that God was behind it.. but the statements themselves are fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Asphyxia Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 [color=darkred]My sister is Christian. In a big way. I don't mind religion, but when every second sentence has "God" or "Jesus" in it, it can get annoying. I don't think all the advice threads are turning into Religious Bashing.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Okay, you made me do this...:smirk: [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina [/i] a) Someone has tried to disprove the Bible using science, properly, to write a book about it, but ended up writing a book about God and science.[/quote] I think I know who you're referring to (though I can't remember the name), but there is also hundreds of books which HAVE succeeded to critizise religion in a very believable way (Copernicus, Darwin, Marx...) [quote]b) The effects of prayer have been scientifically studied (again, trying to disprove it) and prayer was found to double the chances of recovery for patients. (I'll give details when I look again- these are off the top of my head)[/quote] Well, this is similar to the fact that if you have enough life-will (or hope), you'll have more chances on recovery. Nobody's denying that. But wether you do it by praying or just struggling, I think the results are the same (depending on the seriousness of the disease, of course). [quote]c) Someone attempted to disprove the validity of the Acts of the Apostles, by Luke (one of the major new testament books), by actually visiting parts of Asia minor where the Apostles were, and instead he concluded that Luke was "not only accurate but one of the greatest of historians"[/quote] Yeah right! A man who wrote about five years in another man's life is one of the greatest historians in the world. As if! Yes, it has been prooved that there was a Jesus who lived in Israel (or Palestine), but that's because he's mentioned by other historians besides the ones in Bible. But this only proves the obvious: that the Bible is based on true events in some level. [quote]d) Some astronomical data didn't make anysense until they accounted for the fact that God apparently held time still or reversed it, twice, in the old testament[/quote] I don't even understand this point entirely, but if you're trying to prove that the miracles in Old Testament have been proven right in science, then somebody has fooled you HARD. The stuff in OT is MYTHICAL, and even most of the theologists consider that the events are only symbolical. [quote]1- I've seen a guy with a painful knee problem healed instantly[/quote] How can you tell he wasn't faking it? You can't! Lot of those "healing sessions" are based solely on the charismatic leader of the sect, who is making his followers to believe everything he says. [quote]2- I've seen 7 non-believers form a faith -not a religion, a [i]faith[/i] in Jesus in one night (they were the only non-believers there) [/quote] I repeat: they must have had a serious problem in what they believe in. If they were true non-believers, they would've stuck to it. I'm not saying that they made the wrong decision, but I'm just analyzing what made them do that decision. [quote]3- When I prayed about whether I should quit uni or not, the answer came the next day in this form: My mum bought a CD that wouldn't play in church the night before, to hear the second track. The third track was called "the scientist" (I study science). The music for "the scientist" was an identical chord pattern, and in the same key, as one of my songs (not a widely used chord pattern like some). In the back of the CD booklet it said "The scientist is Dan (my name is Dan). I see no chance for coincedences there. (it was also a Coldplay CD, who are a Christian group).[/quote] Well... a sign, a coincidence... this can be translated into whatever form, depending on the point of view. [quote]4- I've heard of a devout Christian village in Africa where they actually believe that the Devil sometimes takes people away from life early, and they pray for them to be brought back to life... and it actually happens.[/quote] Well, I've heard about a whole city that was sunken into ocean by the wrath of gods, and all of it's people were turned into mermen, legs turning into fins... So there. This is just a counter-strike to prove that these aren't NECESSARILY facts. I'm just saying that you can fiddle with words as much as you like, and still you can't find the ultimate truth behind them - there's always somebody who looks at them in a whole new way. I admit that this kind of bashing is really silly and is leading nowhere, but... Deus Ex craved for this! :naughty: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]I admit that this kind of bashing is really silly and is leading nowhere, but... Deus Ex craved for this! :naughty: [/B][/QUOTE] Indeed I did... [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]I think I know who you're referring to (though I can't remember the name), but there is also hundreds of books which HAVE succeeded to critizise religion in a very believable way (Copernicus, Darwin, Marx...)[/B][/QUOTE] Copernicus proved that the Earth is not the centre of the universe.. this was very against the churches beliefs but hey.. people get things wrong.. The church was just stubborn.. but no-where in the bible does it clearly say that the earth is the centre.. people justeither misinterpreted parts or assumed that. Darwin put forward the theory of evolution... so what?.. I study biochemistry, which evolution is a major part of, and I'm still a christian. I'm not familiar with Marx so I won't comment on that part. Ultimately, I'm not talking about criticising religion, which makes up it's own ideas, I'm talking about science and the bible, which is a different thing entirely. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]Well, this is similar to the fact that if you have enough life-will (or hope), you'll have more chances on recovery. Nobody's denying that. But wether you do it by praying or just struggling, I think the results are the same (depending on the seriousness of the disease, of course). [/B][/QUOTE] This was a scientific study.. the people being prayed for had no idea that they were being prayed for.. so that's that idea out the window. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]Yeah right! A man who wrote about five years in another man's life is one of the greatest historians in the world. As if! Yes, it has been prooved that there was a Jesus who lived in Israel (or Palestine), but that's because he's mentioned by other historians besides the ones in Bible. But this only proves the obvious: that the Bible is based on true events in some level.[/B][/QUOTE] I was talking about the acts of the apostles.. that was after Jesus' death.. get your facts straight. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]I don't even understand this point entirely, but if you're trying to prove that the miracles in Old Testament have been proven right in science, then somebody has fooled you HARD. The stuff in OT is MYTHICAL, and even most of the theologists consider that the events are only symbolical. [/B][/QUOTE] The story is around on the internet somewhere.. I have the actual adress in a book at home (I'm not at home) so I'll post it up tomorrow. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]How can you tell he wasn't faking it? You can't! Lot of those "healing sessions" are based solely on the charismatic leader of the sect, who is making his followers to believe everything he says.[/B][/QUOTE] ..... I know he wasn't faking it because it was a medical condition.. he was due to have an operation on it. and I know he was healed because he went to see his doctor and had scans done. That and he can run, lol. And it wasn't some charismatic leader.. there were a lod of people praying for people.. did I mention I actually know this guy, it wasn't just "some guy I saw".. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]I repeat: they must have had a serious problem in what they believe in. If they were true non-believers, they would've stuck to it. I'm not saying that they made the wrong decision, but I'm just analyzing what made them do that decision.[/B][/QUOTE] You weren't even there.. You can't possibly analyse what made them make that decision, because obsiously you've never experienced what made them make that decision.. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]Well... a sign, a coincidence... this can be translated into whatever form, depending on the point of view.[/B][/QUOTE] that I agree with [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]Well, I've heard about a whole city that was sunken into ocean by the wrath of gods, and all of it's people were turned into mermen, legs turning into fins... So there.[/B][/QUOTE] Heh.. have anyone you know ever been to that city and then been to your church? I mean, yeah, I can't prove that either, but give me [i]some[/i] credit, I'm not as dumb as you seem to think. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by sage [/i] [B]I'm just saying that you can fiddle with words as much as you like, and still you can't find the ultimate truth behind them - there's always somebody who looks at them in a whole new way.[/B][/QUOTE] "Well, I've heard about a whole city that was sunken into ocean by the wrath of gods, and all of it's people were turned into mermen, legs turning into fins... So there"... that's some pretty impressive "fiddling"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina [/i] [B] "Well, I've heard about a whole city that was sunken into ocean by the wrath of gods, and all of it's people were turned into mermen, legs turning into fins... So there"... that's some pretty impressive "fiddling"... [/B][/QUOTE] I was referring to MYSELF as well! You made your own translations, I made mine... We're all fiddling! :D I hope you don't take this personally. I know I'm a tolerant person and I truly honor your conviction. Like I said, if one REALLY believes in whatever s/he believes, s/he can't be COMPLETELY wrong... Well, what do you know, this thread turned into a religious debate! Why I'm not surprised... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 [color=#808080]I really don't think that this topic is very warranted. It's all over the place; from religion to how the world views America. I don't think that there has been any kind of excessive "religion bashing" going on at OtakuBoards. Perhaps you took one look at Harry's thread and saw that as some widespread example of behavior on the boards. But that's not the case; his thread was closed immediately. Let's try to create some [i]positive[/i] discussions. The depression threads and such are okay in the sense that sometimes we need to explore our feelings and get comfort from others. But I can't help feeling that some of the threads here should be confined to blogs and things like that; does Otaku Lounge really need to morph into some kind of mental support group? I know that most people have the right intentions and I'm sure that many of you have certainly received comfort from members. And I'm certainly not going to sit here and say "no more depression threads!" But I would ask everyone to consider the content of the thread before they post anything. I don't think that we should start getting the idea that every thread contains religion bashing; that's simply not the case. I think most people here are pretty tolerant. It is simply a minority who are intolerant and who choose to create inflammatory threads/posts. Let's keep some perspective on this.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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