Evolution. God. Faith. Belief. Sides.

[Mitch]

[color=red][size=1][center][url=http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolution/HTML/theory.html]Evolution?[/url]

[url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Genesis+1]God?[/url][/size][/center]

Who to believe? Who to believe? Which side to pick?

Lately I've been thinking a lot to myself. I've been going over if I really do believe in God. I've been going over where I stand. I've been going over how much faith I've ever had, and if there was or is even any. With evolution just brought up awhile ago in Biology, my head has been spinning at different angles. At different things to believe.

My faith towards God as I see it has always been dim. There is some. But it isn't much, at least not to me. Believing in God has been and is one of the hardest things for me to accept.

As I see it somewhat, I see God as a personification of what humans most want. They [i]want[/i] to be great. They [i]want[/i] to live forever. They [i]want[/i] to be perfect. They [i]want[/i] everything to be explained. They want absolution and to believe life has a reason.

God to me somewhat humanity's manifestation of something purely how they wish things would be. Of how good conscience and ways should be rewarded. Of how being a good, nice, giving person will give you something in return other than a feeling of righteousness.

But I've put all of that aside, and I've tried to find God, whoever he is. Whatever he is. And I still haven't really. God just doesn't seem logical in my mind. The harder I try to see him the more clouded and far away I am from him. Why would God love humanity as whole if they are just slowly destroying what he so built? Why are we any better than any other animal? Why should we be seen as special and different that everything else?

Why? Why doesn't God do anything to stop what is being done to our dear Earth? He has to be feeling [i]something[/i] for what is being destroyed. He has to care. Even he should be mad about it. I know I am.

Why would he want us to worship him like we are supposed to as Christians? If he loves us even though we sin and sin, and he loves even those who are his enemies. Why is there church? My God that I've been trying to find would not believe in such worshiping. Religion to me is personal thing?it should stay there, in privacy of worship.

I do not deny that there is a possibility that there is a God?but I'm growing farther and farther from the conclusion that there [i]is[/i] a God. That there is a supreme being. How can I believe something when there is so little evidence I've found to prove it? How can I believe in God?

And with the advent of me learning more about Evolution, I've lost even more of my faith. But I'm still uncertain where I stand. Both sides are wrong and right at the exact same time. Both [i]could[/i] coexist with one another in one way or another. But I want a definite answer in my mind. I want to be able to not flinch or fall back when someone asks me if I do believe in God or not. I don't think it will be like that for a long time, though. I have a long ways to go before I can stand on one side of the scale and say Evolution and science is right, and there is no God. Or that there's a God, or that they all coexist.

It is troubling and hard to try and delve into myself and pick a side. It is hard to believe in something. It is really, really hard. I can tell you I am leaning more towards not believing in God. I've tried and tried to find God in my life, and either I am looking too hard, or he just isn't there.

I do not want this thread to turn into a flaming of religions. I do not want this thread to turn into hate and absolute spam about how it is wrong to believe in one thing or another. Believing is a personal and opinionated fashion and statement. Please, if you have nothing better to say then hate, then [i]do not[/i] post in this thread. I want this to be some civil discussion.

So I want to know. I want to know your thoughts on God, on Evolution. I want to know where you stand.[/color]

[Sara]

[size=1]*quietly waits for James to bring up [i]Telling Lies for God[/i]*

My basis stance on this is that I believe in original Creation and continuing evolution.

I....[/size]

[Fate]

[color=teal]It's a shame the theory of evolution is just a theory, and not a fact. It certainly would bring a level of satisfaction to see those annoying converters drop to their knees in tears.[/color]

[Rhys Mayiessen]

[color=skyblue]I dunno I've been confused about this for a while. I mean the theory of evolution is more easy (for me) to understand then Adam and Eve. I mean we do have proof that dinosaurs did live on this earth at one time but we have no proof of Adam and Eve except the bible. I'm not saying they never exsisted I'm just saying that its easier to belive in evidence.

Oh well I'm still confused on the whole thing cause I still believe in God.[/color]

[Kent]

I believe in god and an evolution theory of sorts.

I dont believe in straight up evolution as preached by so many.

It is still just a theory, and will stay that way until some one can find a large number of big plugs for the nasty holes in the theory.

Although it looks good and makes sense, there are several spots where the scientist who support the theory must make jumps and I dont like making "jumps" in science.

I believe in the theory of "survival of the fittest." which is the theory proposed by darwin, which is so often qouted and called evolution although darwin did not propose "evolution" specifically.

Isn't it possible that a species is a species and within the species we can evolve, but we do not cross from one species to another.

I guess Im just gonna give up on this...

Bottom line is that I believe in god, and I believe in the deviation of a species, but not the evolution of one species into another.

Dogs are dogs, cats are cats... monkeys are monkeys and people are people.

We are not all the same and if we had been at one point there would be animals out there that are a mix of the most beneficial aspects of both species.

That would be perfectly reasonable using the very same concept that all "darwinist" use... survival of the fittest.

[Cora Jane 2]

[font=arial][size=1]Well, I as Mitch, have been having a hard time with religion. I have grown up in a Christian home, and always gone to a parochial school. So, it's not like I have no idea about religion... I find that always going to the parochial school, and going to church seems to be pushing me away. I "know" that there is a God, now if I believe that, I'm not quite sure anymore. I don't really know what I believe, it's always been taught me that "Evolution is wrong" and "God is the creator of the universe", never even giving me a chance to make a decision for myself.
I guess there is something higher, not neccessarily a God, but there is a higher being. Like a supreme soul, or something like that, I don't know. But with the whole Evolution thing, I remember learning that in school, and well my teacher taught it as if it were fact, but then again it was Newville... (she's great). I suppose having taking theology classes all my life and having that shoved down my throat, taught me that Creation is the truth. And well I know what certain church doctrine's teach, and what my teacher's believe, I could probably quote them, but the point is, that people are taught.
For a person to actually sit down and choose, that is pretty impressive. A lot of things are taught to us as kids when we are young, and then we(they) just grow up believing what they were taught, no questions asked. Once they are older though, many find themselves (as I) questioning what they believe, because they never fully understood what they were learning.
But personally Mitch, I think I am just as confused as you are about this whole thing. There are a few things though that seem to make Evolution seem false. But yeah, I don't know.[/font][/size]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i]
[B][color=red][size=1] But I want a definite answer in my mind. I want to be able to not flinch or fall back when someone asks me if I do believe in God or not. I don't think it will be like that for a long time, though. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]I don't think that I'll ever have that definite awnser in my mind. My view of God, evolution, and the world has become such a jumbled up mess of theorys and guesses that it is hard to remember which way is up. My base view always remains the same, that something had to create the universe, and, although we may not be the blessed beings we think we are, I tend to belive that there is someone watching...[/color]

[conpiracymonki]

[b][size=1]
I believe in God, and some sort of the evolution that Gokents mentioned. O_o'[/b]

The mutating and everything else just doesn't seem to make sense to me, personally..[/size]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson][b]God[/b]- I beleive God is not a set entity with a personality. The definition of God has drifted to that, but if you think about it, God could be set in any of the theories- The Big bang, the very snap that started the massive expansive explosion outwards could be called God. Evolution, the first organisms to begin to devolp into something greater and beyond could be called God. I think we defined what God is too fast, and it set in our minds that it couldnt be anything BEYOND a single entity, or multiple entitys. I think that maybe the word "God" can truely represent anything, if you are openminded about it. So I do believe in a God, in some form, some fashion, some place.

[b]Evolution[/b]- I honestly dont believe in this theory. In some ways, its more farfetched than the Creation theory. Luck isnt that good- Life isnt that [i]presistant[/i] that by complete chance, organisms evolve. It might exist in a form- As in adapting, species editing themselves to their surrondings [IE, Humans in higher elevations have larger lungs in general.]. But the statement that all of us originated from some primal form seems folly to me. So I suppose I believe in a form of it, but not in the theory that we all came from some small organism. *nods*

[b]Creation[/b]- Hmm. I grew up learning this, and sometimes it seems so farfetched, yet so down to Earth. I guess I beleive in this the most, hm.

So I have some sort of hybrid form of each, I suppose.

Then again, none of us can be totally sure- So who knows? Maybe God is a massive, old oak tree in Washington state on a hill, just watching a city and waiting for the right time.[/color]

[GinnyLyn]

Gokents covered my bases pretty well on the theory of evolution. (That one joke about evolution: if we evolved from monkeys, then why are they still here? .:rotflmao:.)

And as for cold hard fact...well, it's all a matter of faith, not fact. You could say it's an afterlife gamble you're taking. I do have my moments when I wonder if I'm really going the right way or not. Most of the time, I'm cool with God though.

Love to you all, but what saddens me is, in this day and age, we are so caught up in instantaneous solutions that anything that takes more than an hour to prove is dismissed as, well...*rereads Mitch's first post and chooses words carefully*...not worth looking into.

Frankly, I could be doing a better job of reaching to God, instead of being caught up in the menial current of society. *dies laughing of embarrassment* Meh, yeah, anyways, my final word is, no matter what any of us humans say, it all comes down to what is between you and God. Don't look to us. Don't listen for what you want to hear.

It's all between you and God.

[TheShinje]

[size=1] [color=blue]

Here's my opinion Mitch, it is my hope that everyone can read this with an open heart, especially those who think they're going to see us converters drop to our knees in tears, so to speak.

There is a god; there is plenty of evidence for it. More so evidence for the Christian God more than any other God. I will explain in detail the evidence, the facts, and the proof.

What about Noah?s Ark?
Did all those animals stay on one tiny boat? No, only two of each. And it is possible that the variating species of cat, dog ect. Happened at Babylon, I will explain that further later in this piece.

Noah's ark was discovered on Mt Ararat. I've seen it, it the remains of a giant wooden boat, what else could it be?

There is a distinct pattern of sediments, and fossils, as well as canyons and caves that could have only been created, and point to, a catastrophic flood of biblical proportions. Are these fossils of fish and reptiles [i] really our ancestors? [/i] Evidence speaks against it.

The evolution of earth is ridiculously coincidental. It involves the most unlikely of situations, including a primordial soup from which a random spark of energy sparked random one celled life. This does not say, however, how that random spark could have possibly created all the coding in our genes making it possible to reproduce.

It is the same possibility that a tornado can rip through a junkyard and come out with an F-15 fighter jet. It is the same possibility that you could throw all the necessary parts to make a computer in to one wooden box, spin the box around and while it was spinning, randomly solder the parts together until a supercomputer just, happens.

The watch and the universe a complex, yet no one doubts that a watch comes from the watchmaker, how can you look at this world, this functionality, and design that is apparent in everything the lord created, the various planta and life forms, the mysteries of the bottomless oceans. The sunrise and fall without fail everyday.

It soon becomes apparent that this design was no coincidence. Any closer to the sun, we would be too hot to survive, any further, and we would be too cold. This planet is in the [i]exact[/i] place for life to sprout, furthermore, the earth is on the exact right axial tilt for the whole earth to get is fair quota of sunlight.

The ecologists claim tat about 1% change in the earths atmosphere will bring a cosmic doom, turn that coin around, how did it get so delicate in the first place? Someone went to a lot of trouble, to balance things here.

PROPHECY


Prophecy is the key to all matters godly, it says in the bible that in the last days, there will be many god wannabes, so to speak, and that God will prove to creations that he is the one and only God, by predicting future events. I know, it's the same as Nostradamus, but God says in the bible, that only the Bible will get it 100% correct. There are many flaws in Nostradamus prophecy, which seem to detail on America most of all, albeit, I agree his revelations on America are startlingly true, he has got a lot of things wrong. But here are the bible prophecies that have been fulfilled. In exact detail.

The Birth of Jesus (oldest scroll dates back to 90 B.C)

I know, the sceptics say it is vague, and could be applied to anything, but I implore you to seriously consider these points about the Jesus prophecies.

Born in Bethlehem (how can you dictate where you are born?)
Born of a virgin (how?)
Born in a time when people will weep because of him (Herod slaughtered thousands of innocent children, hoping to get the messiah, and the parents of those children mourned and wept)

At crucifixion

He was nailed between two thieves (do you know a judge who will send you to a prison cell with whoever you choose, well, Jesus did not know where his cross would be did he?)

Given sour wine and pierced in the stomach (it was common for roman soldiers to break the victims legs at crucifixion. But since Jesus died s u=suddenly, in three hours, they did not, instead, they pierced his side with a spear to see if he was still alive)

All these things have passed. Here are some in modern times, which have set into motion, the final revelation.

Rebirth of Israel as a nation, No coincidence, this happened in 1948. The rebirth of Israel is certainly not vague; the Bible described the land it would take to a perfect degree.

The seventh empire of the world, the advanced European union (the bible talked about a seventh kingdom on the earth, this is it. the seventh major empire on the earth)

A new world Order, the coming antichrist, and one government for the whole earth. (While technically not fulfilled yet, the bud of this prophecy has sprouted as the United Nations)

So you see, there are plenty of reasons for you Mitch, and others to believe in God, these are but a few. This goes of other Otakuons today; you can simply say a prayer of salvation and be saved right now! In your own home! God has given you the evidence you have laughed at and said it's non-existent. When you ask 'where is the evidence' God replies in full with servants like myself Now he awaits your response, and what you plan to do with the evidence you have been waiting for. God is not distant and angry, he loves you, and he want's to draw you near today ;)

Oh, and God has left us to sort out our own problems, while caring for each one of us on a spiritual plain. I agree with deathknight too, God could have created the earth using a big bang, or he could be an oak tree :p, but I dounbt it. jesus will return when the time is right, trust me, it will be soon. I hope :whoops: [/size] [/color]

[Turkey]

I've been brought up in a Catholic family, and thaught in a Catholic school. However, these recent years I've been morphing my vision of God into many different things. I refuse to believe that an organization of humans knows everything (like the Church has made me think at times). Instead, I prefer to use logic with religion.

For example, my Religion teacher (who's also a priest) doesn't just tell us "what is right and wrong". Instead, he lets us debate, and can make things sound pretty logical. However, there are a few things that I simply can't accept as wrong, and I have my own logical reasons for them.

Here are a few examples of how some "impossible stuff" can happen:

The Great Flood- A lot of people say that a flood big enough to cover the world is impossible. I have this question for those: How big was the known world back then? The flood only needed to cover a certain region, and nobody would be the wiser. Those unaffected by the flood could be ancestors of the Vikings, or the Indians, or Oriental people.

The River of Blood- There is a certain part of the Nile that has reddish sediments. They are positioned in a way that it would only take a small quake, with just the right precision, to create red water.

See, examples like this made me reach my current belief that God does not use miracle per se. Instead, he created a world full of possibilities and exceptions, and he just uses those exceptions when necesary.
If it weren't for that, we would already be another chunk of rock in space.

[Orien_Xel]

[color=blue]I believe in Evolution. I don't believe in God. Personally, its a lot easier for me to believe in the fact that we all evolved from monkeys. There are monkeys stil here because not all species of monkeys evolved into humans. My catholic school KILLED my faith in any kind of God due to the fact that they said:"Animals don't have souls.", "God forgives you no matter what!", and "Homosexuality is a sin!" But that's of subject. Anyway, I find it much easier to believ in evolution.
I actually saw a Documentary that showed that there was a flood simalar to the one in the bible. The Black Sea(i think) used to be spearated from the Mediterrian. Evantually, the area between those two bodys of water failed due to increasing water levels due to global warimng. Thousands of milions of tons of water thundered into the black sea area, raising its water level and destroying villages, etc.
I still believe in evoloution.[/color]

[DuoMax]

I don't believe in god. I believe in Buddha and the path to enlightenment. Nothing you can ay will dissaude me.

I just have a question: If God loves us so much, why does he let us kill each other and the planet?

[Turkey]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i]
[B][color=blue]Homosexuality is a sin!"[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I've been reading the Cathecism (the Catholic Church's moral book) and it specifically says: [B]Homosexuality by itself is not a sin. We must give out support to those born like this, as most of them are born with this alteration in their genes.[/B]

You can bash this into any homophobe to shut him up.

[Kent]

If you believe in buddha and you can ask why god will "let us kill each other and the planet." Maybe you could explain to me why communist chinesse are killing off and oppressing other buddhist in places like tibet.

Or maybe you could explain the actions of the Jappanesse buddhist in the era of world war2.

I just wanted to point out that no matter what religion you consider yourself, its our actions that make us good people and simply being buddhist or muslim doesnt make you any more peacful or enlightened than christians or taoist.

Oh yea, I have no intention of persuading your views, I just want to show everyone else that big words about enlightenment mean nothing.

Peacful people and wise people exist in every culture and religion, you should try to acknowledge that.

Which Im sure you do being that you are following the path of buddha.

[Manic Webb]

Like Fate said, the theory of evolution is just a theory, not a law. Scientific laws can be proven, but scientific theories are just ideas that some people say might be true. I've always wondered: If man evolved from the ape, what was the ape evolving from while we were turning into humans? The theory of evolution might be true, but it's still just a theory.

I remember, however, reading somewhere that the week-long creation of life on Earth can be combined with science, if you consider that man might have a different point of view on "time" than God does.
The Bible (as well as the Jewish Torah, I think) says that God created the animals before he created man. Enter the dinosaurs and all other animals. Then God created man is his own image to watch over and live on Earth with all of the animals. This could explain why humans have a habit of standing out amongst the rest of the animal kingdom. What the Bible and Torah and Kra'ran(sp?) describe as a few quick days from God's point of view could be endless lifetimes to any mortal creature.

All-in-all, I believe in the God of Christianity/Catholicism/Judaism/Islam. (And don't go telling me that they're each different gods, or anything. When 3 different religions' texts are the exact same for the first few books, they're worshipping the same God)

[Change]

I am an Atheist. I do however, understand the power of myth and it's applications. You have to relize that half the religions practiced in this world were created by a bunch of nomadic tribes struggeling from day to day. How does this have rellevance to your life you ask? It doesn't, unless you take it with a grain of salt. You must interperate it in your own way, not the way you are told to. (If you would like to further investigate this train of thought you need to go by a few book writen by Joseph Cambel, a brillinat historian, who is a freeking genous about myth, and understanding it in context).
I belive in evolution, I have read the Orgin of Species. I'm a firm beliver in serveral evolutionary theorys.
I see no way to answer your question directly, so I will ask you a question of my own?
Did God creat hummanity, or did humanity creat God out of necesity? When you answer this, then the rest comes into focus. If you don't answer this, then it is truely pick and chose among religion and all else.
I personaly have found my answer in Scinece... I really enjoy Physics and getting to really look at the universe under a demigod microscope ^_^. And with the resarch into Genetics, we are tracing back evolution of species through thousands of years (FYI, the Aborigines in Austrailia were the first humans to leave Africa, they followed a coastal rout, their genetic markers were found in Inida. That was approximatly 50,000 years ago).
Well, I've lsot my train of thought at this point, but if anyone has any questions about evolution or what not, feel free to PM me :)

[Charles]

I believe in evolution. I mean, evolution is clearly apparent. Humanity has evolved from a small, ape-like creature (Australa Pithecus) to a creature that lived in huts and invented fire (Homo Erectus) to a higher evolution that made clothing, believed in afterlife, and warfare (Neanderthal man). Sheesh, I hope I've spelled those correctly. It's been a while since I had the course.

Our current form of Homosapien has really evolved. The proof of evolution is so apparent. This is really obvious stuff here. We began as a hunter/gathering society, moved to herding, followed by our evolution into an agricultural society (big step there) and ultimately, industrialization.

I don't think a God has anything to do with our advancements as a society. The new and old testaments are very similar to works like Gilgamesh. They share similar myths, such as the great flood. And...heck, the Garden of Eden is based on an area in Sumaria.

So, I don't believe in God as others do. Perhaps a higher being does exist as an energy that surrounds us. I can't say. But, it's a very humanistic view. If a God does exist, I doubt it's human in appearance--just like how the Earth isn't the center of the universe.

Religion was just put in place as a government to control the masses--and it's always been a business.

[Transtic Nerve]

Evolution has been scientifically proven, although not in humans. And well, creation hasn't been scientifically proven. I tend to believe what I have some proof of.

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]I do beieve that God created the universe, but I also believe that the account of the Creation in Genesis is highly metaphoric. There is a lot of evidence to support forms of evolution on this planet. And that is as specific as I'm going to get.[/color]

[Sui Generis]

I'm with Ken here.

God. We think of God as some huge thing floating in the skys watching our lives, and making them what they are. Humans like to feel like stuff they are involved in have control. Thats what I think most religions are for. Just to feel safe in life, to feel protected.

Its hard to say. Its been pretty weird lately. You think about this and then you realize, what makes someone think there is a God. What makes someone think there isn't? I mean when you look in the stars what do you see?

Do you think like the Greeks? Is this truly heaven to you? Do you see a mass of gases like a scientist, or are you just amazed at something so beautiful?

There are so many reasons people believe or don't believe. I think God is what you make of it. God may be here for a purpose. But God isn't phsycial, God isn't spiritual. God is what we want. Our highest good. Our one role model to look up to. God is the meaning of Ultimate Being. But God isn't a being. God is our imaginations. God is the one thing we strive to be. The one goal every human strives to be sometime in their life is: God.

Thats my thought on it.

As for the theories. I don't think either are right. We've only been on this Earth so long, and we've only thought about it for even less than that. What makes us think we've already got the answer? I don't think we do. Yet I can't say that I myself have a theory, because I don't.

[b]Edit:[/b] I hope my whole God speal made sense, I tried to get it out into words...

[Kent]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]Evolution has been scientifically proven, although not in humans. And well, creation hasn't been scientifically proven. I tend to believe what I have some proof of. [/B][/QUOTE]

I hate to disagree here, but there isn't anything to this...

Evolution has not been "proved," it has been supported.

Support and common acceptance does not mean proven.

Sorry tn, but it looks like this is another where we disagree.

Unfortunatly for your side of this, even the average dictionary reffers to "evolution" as the theory of...

Sorry tn, but it is a theory and it has gaps in the process.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]Although I do think I am fairly adequate at transposing my thoughts to writing, it is not in my nature to convey thoughts of a scientific nature, so please forgive me if this post is erratic and irrational.

About a month ago I read a book called ?Prey? by Michael Crichton. It is a fictional book based on how man-made nano-technology evolves to form a ?swarming? consciousness. Although the plot line was quite good, the scientific and evolutionary aspects of the book intrigued me much more. Over the next several weeks I spent many hours in the local Borders (unfortunately we don?t have a Barnes and Nobles) pouring over books cited in ?Prey?s? bibliography, attempting to comprehend evolutionary ideas that I had realized.

One of the first theories I read dealt with the ?survival of the fittest? theory so many of you have commented on, and, though it doesn?t rule it out, it explains how evolution is not really ?survival of the fittest?, but instead, evolution and survival depends on a creatures ability to form a symbiotic relationship with other organisms. Although several of the books explained this on a micro level, I?ll have to do with a simplistic explanation (mainly because it hurts my head to ponder it on a micro scale). Humans have a symbiotic relationship with domesticated cattle. We use it to provide us with nourishment, and they use us to provide them with food and protection. The evolution of humans and cattle can be coordinated easily (mainly because humans did domesticate the cattle), as men grew less nomadic, cattle grew increasingly more docile and domesticated, there is also an inverse question to this: would humans have become less nomadic if farm animals had not become domesticated?

Before you dismiss my post as ramblings of a mad man, I?ll give you a different version of a symbiotic relationship. This is nearly straight from ?Prey?, yet I read it in many other books as well. The Ant/Aphid relationship is as symbiotic a relationship as any other. Many types of ants raise aphids as a food source, they take the time to protect them, nourish them, and shelter them, and then they use them as a staple food. They do the same thing with fungus; they grow it within decomposing bodies of other ants and then feed on it. It is a classic symbiotic relationship, both groups benefit. I know these are all small examples of symbiotic relationships, but many of you are bright, young individuals and hopefully my meager writing abilities have allowed you to extrapolate on the principle.

If I haven?t lost you yet, I am probably about to. Now I am going to attempt to explain the theory of swarms. If I am able to do this right, it will give you something to ponder for quite a while. For a long time the study of insect biology was done according to a certain school of thought. Scientists believed that swarms of insects had appointed leaders (for example the queen bee). In recent years, however, more and more scientists have come to believe that a swarm of insects does not function on a leader system, instead each individual functions as part of a whole (much like coding in a computer program), each individual is given a set of rules and objectives that is passed down genetically. This becomes obvious when you see that insects have created structures over several generations?in size and design time, many of these structure rival works like skyscrapers and pyramids. I know this seems like a trivial observation, but if you break it down into a cellular level, it isn?t hard to fathom that, every organism is the greater whole of a smaller swarm. As a human, our cells have incredibly short lifespan, yet they follow predetermined rules that have been programmed into their genetic code from past generations. The greatest example of swarming cells is the human brain?and I believe that is where I will end my rant, for my grasp of this theory ends here. However, I think many of you get the gist of what I am hinting at, on a micro level evolution constantly takes place, not necessarily due to a ?survival of the fittest? rule but rather a direct relationship between the symbiotic and swarming properties of matter[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn [/i]
[B]Gokents covered my bases pretty well on the theory of evolution. (That one joke about evolution: if we evolved from monkeys, then why are they still here? .:rotflmao:.)

[/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]And that, Ginny, only demonstrates that you don't know much about evolution. ~_^

Nobody says that monkeys turned into man. That's about as foolish as saying that woman derived from man's rib.

Rather, scientific fact tells us that modern apes and man [i]share a common ancestor[/i] in our species' collective history.

The problem with evolution is that you have hardcore creationists who use faulty science to try and disprove evolution fact ("evolution theory", if you actually read about it, is a term that is [i]not[/i] used to suggest that evolution is only an unproven theory -- many people misunderstand that).

And, lay individuals who don't know any better (or who have never studied evolution in school) go along with it. It's easy. No effort required. But of course, with that lack of effort (and possibly the desire to learn some knowledge) comes a level of ignorance on the subject.

Also, let's not forget that evolution and God do not have to be two seperate entities. Why not propose that God is responsible for the intelligent design of evolution? That is a proposition which sits very comfortably with many people -- including the Pope, who has already (as I say again and again) officially recognized evolution and made it inclusive of the Church.

The biggest problem in these debates is that very few people really have a great deal of knowledge about evolution (at least, very few who are believers in creationism). And so, you're never going to get a debate that goes anywhere. It is just a circle that goes around and around -- and unfortunately, it becomes something that is ideologically driven. And so, if you are supporting the evidence and undeniable fact of evolution (and if you don't believe there are undeniable facts, just look at how the AIDS virus is adapting itself to be drug resistant -- yet another case of natural evolution), you are often going to be called "anti-God" or you're going to be painted as someone who hates religion/God.

It's very difficult to have a debate under such circumstances.

With that said, I'm going to make two points about this thread.

Firstly, I urge everyone to read Mitch's original post. He did not ask for a debate on evolution; he asked for everyone to simply list their own beliefs. And that's fine.

I would also make one other point. This thread should [i]not[/i] become an evolution debate. It shouldn't become an evolution debate both for the reasons listed above, as well as the fact that we've had a myraid of such debates in the past -- and if anyone wants to know what OB members think on the subject, they only have to perform a quick search of the site. There is plenty of material on here relating to that subject.

On a secondary note, I also want to encourage everyone to actually consider some new threads. When we have a "dry" period, we somehow inevitably come back to religion or abortion or something political. These threads have merit, but not when they are being repeated frequently. And I would submit that this type of thread (in its many guises) has been repeated on a frequent basis.

That said, I encourage Charles and other Category Moderators to watch this thread closely. I will also be watching. If this thread digresses into the same old debate (which never brings anything fruitful, especially when we've already had intelligent debates on the same subject), it should be closed immediately. I'm a little bit disappointed that Mitch couldn't find something else to start a thread about, but I do accept the original intent of the thread...that it wasn't a flat out debate situation. I hope that it continues in an appropriate way.[/color]