Vegitto4 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i] [B] Saddam himself gives 25,000 dollars to the family of any suicide bomber in palestine... If that is not adding fuel to an already out of control fire, then I dont know what is. [/B][/QUOTE] lol. If thats not ironic in a slightly twisted way, then I need my head examined. Saddam may be evil, and cruel, and such, but he is a genius......well.....sort of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I have to agree with with gokents, Chris. Comparing genocide to what we're doing in Iraq is stretching it. However, I don't see where you had an underlying tone that the Kurds [i]needed[/i] to be destroyed. Anyway, we did the same thing to Native Americans in the wee hours of this nation. Can't forget that. Another thing, I'm not entirely sure the Kurds in Iraq are considered valid citizens of Iraq. Do you have information to back that up, or is that just something you assume? -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 [b] I think the Kurdish people need their own country. A piece of real estate they can call their own. Just like the UN did for israel, and what they should do for the Palestinians too. [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegitto4 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 It's Possible that they do deserve one. At the least, just randomly killing them isn't cool at all. Just let them Live, and thrive as they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by gokents [b]Too much to quote, but you know what I'm talking about[/b] [/quote] I was NEVER comparing genocide to what we are doing, I was comparing reason... if you'd read my post again you'll see i said much like we are taking out "legitamate threats"... which is OUR reason for this war is it not? IS IT NOT? Thats what I thought... I never compared the killing of the Kurds to us killing the Iraqis. PLEASE read my posts more carefully in the future. For your second reason. Saddam took over after his uncle. His uncle ran Iraq before Saddam. He didn't just come out of no where and take it over. If I'm not mistaken his uncle came into power after WWII, when the British left and when the Russians were pursuing an expansion of communism. I am not saying theKurds need to be destroyed, I'm simply sayign that the reason Saddam is killing them is because of the reasons I said. The Kurds are not Iraqis, They are not Iranians, they are not Turks, they are not Jordanians. They are Kurds. They don't have their own country, so they tend to live in other's countries... and that poses a threat to those countries, which is WHY Saddam is killing them. You all simply make it out as Saddam is killing innocent Iraqi citizens (which he does do) but when you refer to the genocide, you have to look at it in a view of war. Saddam sees these people as a threat to HIM and the rest of the middle east (which if he hadn't helped with the mass killings of them, they probably would run all of the middle east by now) You cannot say Saddam has done mass genocide of his own innocent people, because those are simply NOT the facts. It's a war with him, and most of the middles east, and the Kurds. You can't write that off as innocent Iraqi citizens dieing. Thats false. Again, I'm not saying that the Kurds need to be killed. I'm not saying Saddam is an angel, and I'm not saying he shouldn't be removed from power. I'm just giving the reasons behind what he does, who he does it to, and why they aren't what you think they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegitto4 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B] Again, I'm not saying that the Kurds need to be killed. I'm not saying Saddam is an angel, and I'm not saying he shouldn't be removed from power. I'm just giving the reasons behind what he does, who he does it to, and why they aren't what you think they are. [/B][/QUOTE] Those reasons are also logical as well. If someone posed a threat to a country you were leading, wouldn't you want to fix it? Yes you would. So, just like TN said, saddam might not be perfect, but he was trying to run his country and keep it from being taken over. Blah, we still need to kill him......:blackeye: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven's Cloud Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by S@bretooth [/i] [B][b] I think the Kurdish people need their own country. A piece of real estate they can call their own. Just like the UN did for israel, and what they should do for the Palestinians too. [/b] [/B][/QUOTE] [color=indigo]The kurds need to learn to live with other muslims in a peaceful fashion. Dividing religous groups into territories has never been a good idea. That is why we have such a mess in Isreal. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yu Yu Hakusho! Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Not just that, just the Isrealis aren't the ones starting all the fights with Musulms. The Musulms don't like the fact that the people of Isreal are Jewish and they hate them for that, so they fight over religious differences. And to think that I was about to say, "Why can't everyone be like America?" We are split in hundreds of pieces. So many people are fighting over religion even in our country of freedom of religion. Christians and Catholics are griping at athests to believe in Jesus and God and Musulms are telling people here that Allah is the true god. I wish everyone would just keep their opinions to themselves, we already have enough crap to think about. Now I'm not griping at anyone's religion and I'm not telling anyone to be tolerant of everyone. You have a right to your opinion and if you don't like Musulms, well good for you. You can think that and share that with friends or whatever, but don't go around causing trouble. I beleive in SOME toleration, but not 100%. We are not going to be controled here!! Does anyone here get to watch any news at their school? We don't because our stupid principal thinks that we are too young to handle war without our parents telling us that 'everythings going to be alright.' My stupid principal doesn't know that we are not 1st graders.... I'm really scared though. My dad and I were watching the news last night and they said that the war will probably drag out for a few months. My dad said our economy will probably go to **** within the next few weeks. People are scared to buy things and to spend money and then so people loose their jobs beacuse companys lay off people because they are loosing money. I can only pray that this doesn't lead to another depression. I started crying yesterday when I heard the death count for US and British soldiers. It just slapped me in the face and I woke up to the world realizing what was going on. I love American troops. I love British troops. And all I can do is pray and hope that they stay alive and thank them for their service. And listen to the growing death count. :( God, PLEASE end this soon!! Now I wish we would've never gone to war at all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]PLEASE read my posts more carefully in the future. ... and that poses a threat to those countries, which is WHY Saddam is killing them. You all simply make it out as Saddam is killing innocent Iraqi citizens (which he does do) but when you refer to the genocide, you have to look at it in a view of war. Saddam sees these people as a threat to HIM and the rest of the middle east (which if he hadn't helped with the mass killings of them, they probably would run all of the middle east by now) You cannot say Saddam has done mass genocide of his own innocent people, because those are simply NOT the facts. It's a war with him, and most of the middles east, and the Kurds. You can't write that off as innocent Iraqi citizens dieing. Thats false. [/B][/QUOTE] I did read your post carefully, but here again you are justifying the genocide of these people by means of saying they are a threat to Saddam. The actual fact of the matter is that even when they are a percieved threat, the genocide seen in halbja is never acceptable. You are perverting the facts and are trying to say these people were not innocent citizens. They were. I also want to poin out that you are wrong about saddams rise to power. His uncle raised him but was never the leader of iraq. Heres the deal. A military coup puts Abdul Karim Qassim into power. Helped by Col. Abd al salam. The president is ousted... ba'athist take over for a short time. The col. comes back with military and takes out the ba'athist. Then the col. dies in 1964 in a helicopter crash. The col.'s brother takes over as president. This man is saddam's cousin. Saddam, now a prominent member of the ba'ath party becomes v.p. of the government. The brother/president is named "... bakr" (dont know the first name) Over time saddam orginizes his secret police and loyalist. Then he makes his move and forces his cousin out of the presidency... "he resigned." That is how saddam came to power. No handing down of any positions... all hostile coups and take overs. I have a link, that is to the state dept. timeline for Iraq, but I dont know how to link. Just find your way there if you can and you will see for yourself. Hope that all adds to the informative nature of this thread:whoops: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eleanor Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 If there's one thing I hate about this war, it's George W. Bush. I know he says all this crap about giving freedom to Iraqi people and stuff, while his top priority is to obtain the oil. (that's what I think) The only reason I support the war NOW is because of the American soldiers fighting for us. If you think about it, the U.S. is really a country full of bast****. Ahem. For everyone who thinks that we're NOT in this war for oil, I think you're all a bunch of naive idiots. Just because Bush wants oil doesn't mean he's a dictator or he wants to take over the world. Sure, maybe he doing it for America's economy, but it's still bad. Iraqi peopl don't even want our help. All that stuff on the news about Iraqi people cheering on America? Yea, about 1/40 of the population in Iraq believe in that. I think America has granted itself the title of the supreme country, and in that title they can whatever they want. I think the leaders want to feel important, so they help anyone even if they don't want help. And anyways, America's economy didn't begin to slump after 9/11. That is the most stupidest, most ridiculest thing I have EVER heard. The economy slumped after Bush became president, it just wasn't publicised as much then. [QUOTE]Its odd how something that could be a fun sharing of opinons boils down into children fighting amongst themselves. I guess thats how some of the more opionated people of OB find pleasure- proving themselves the worser person by engageing in confrontational debate that ruins threads that could offer new ideas and thoughts. Hm. Sad that fact holds true.. And its the same people that ruin these threads with petty debates too. Cloricus, Gokents. Sensitive, Defensive, Opinonated people who ruin threads with a 'holier than thou' attitude. Bah. Also i'd like to ask some form of upper justive- God, I guess- to bless the familes of the Iraqi casulaties and the American casualties. Poloticans never fight the wars themselves, they just send other people in to do their work, and die for them..[/QUOTE] ...you remind me of the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by anime_gurl [/i] [B]If there's one thing I hate about this war, it's George W. Bush. I know he says all this crap about giving freedom to Iraqi people and stuff, while his top priority is to obtain the oil. (that's what I think) The only reason I support the war NOW is because of the American soldiers fighting for us. If you think about it, the U.S. is really a country full of bast****. Ahem. For everyone who thinks that we're NOT in this war for oil, I think you're all a bunch of naive idiots. Just because Bush wants oil doesn't mean he's a dictator or he wants to take over the world. Sure, maybe he doing it for America's economy, but it's still bad. Iraqi peopl don't even want our help. All that stuff on the news about Iraqi people cheering on America? Yea, about 1/40 of the population in Iraq believe in that. I think America has granted itself the title of the supreme country, and in that title they can whatever they want. I think the leaders want to feel important, so they help anyone even if they don't want help. And anyways, America's economy didn't begin to slump after 9/11. That is the most stupidest, most ridiculest thing I have EVER heard. The economy slumped after Bush became president, it just wasn't publicised as much then. ...you remind me of the US. [/B][/QUOTE] Most stupidest, most ridiculest...(perfect grammar on that one... :laugh: ) oil, oil, oil. Yea, this is the perfect example of what I like to see from my opponents on this stuff. The economy started slumping AFTER bush became president... (uhh... I dont think so, it actually started in 1999. But the whole calling everyone naive idiots... that does an excellent job of using logical fact to support your oil/economy argument. I gotta say, as a supporter of this effort, I would like to see no one besides you as the spokesperson for the anti-war movment. That would make things so much easier... man, where have you been this whole thread. I could have used the sort of material you put up in some great arguments. Well I think its about time I address what you said besides just pointing out the odd flaws in what you said. First off, if someone hadnt come foward, I think that it would safe for me to say... your flaming anyone and everyone from the U.S.A. That sort of thing isn't allowed. Second is the oil thing... now Im sure you've taken world economics, but I think I should refresh you on it. You see, if you want the price of an object to go down, you increase the amount of that object that is availible. That in mind, it would be twice as easy to get oil by just lifting the embargos against Iraq. Now about the Iraqi people... I think that before you comment much more on that, you should read "republic of fear." It explains the general treatment of the Iraqi people who aren't ba'athist. Citing horrible things that I will only mention because I believe you have never heard them. Giving sorces that are legitimate human rights orginizations, the author tells the stories of places like halabja and the forced confessions of parents through the torture of their children. (I woulnt even say what they did to the children out of respect) A background of Iraq given by books like this and dozens of other sources will give you an honest view of what the Iraqi people are really dealing with. That is why some of them like having the U.S. remove Saddam and some are just not interested, or plain out hate the western non-muslim world. (extremist such "ansar al islam," who Im sure you know of:D ) And finally, your point about the economies slumping... If you have been paying attention, which Im sure you have, you know for a fact that the economy started to slump in 1999, with the help of an inflated stock market based on failing internet buisness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegitto4 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I might be shooting myself in the foot here.......but thank you gokents. She needed that........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Well if you shot, you missed. Dont worry, you can always be against me however you wish, but when there are those who are way off base... Somebodies gotta bring them back to reality. Thanks for noticing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Did you know that every Suni in their military is religiously and moraly obligated to fight to the death. The millitary is 90% Suni. So much for Bush's predictions... I would trust a democrat more with my wallet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i] [B]I did read your post carefully, but here again you are justifying the genocide of these people by means of saying they are a threat to Saddam. The actual fact of the matter is that even when they are a percieved threat, the genocide seen in halbja is never acceptable. You are perverting the facts and are trying to say these people were not innocent citizens. They were. I also want to poin out that you are wrong about saddams rise to power. His uncle raised him but was never the leader of iraq. Heres the deal. A military coup puts Abdul Karim Qassim into power. Helped by Col. Abd al salam. The president is ousted... ba'athist take over for a short time. The col. comes back with military and takes out the ba'athist. Then the col. dies in 1964 in a helicopter crash. The col.'s brother takes over as president. This man is saddam's cousin. Saddam, now a prominent member of the ba'ath party becomes v.p. of the government. The brother/president is named "... bakr" (dont know the first name) Over time saddam orginizes his secret police and loyalist. Then he makes his move and forces his cousin out of the presidency... "he resigned." That is how saddam came to power. No handing down of any positions... all hostile coups and take overs. I have a link, that is to the state dept. timeline for Iraq, but I dont know how to link. Just find your way there if you can and you will see for yourself. Hope that all adds to the informative nature of this thread:whoops: [/B][/QUOTE] Right, then the US troops and Iraqi troops are innocent people. The Kurds are people at war with the middle eastern world (and the middles eastern world is at war with them). Thus they are not innocent civilians. Also did I EVER say that what Saddam did was justified? No... I said it was REASON... REASON is not always justified... Thats why we have laws, because REASON is not always JUSTIFIED. I have reason to kill George Bush, but if I did, is that justified? no... ofcourse not... I think, I KNOW, you understand this, but you keep reading my post wrong. I gave reasons, not justifications. My analogy goes something like this: Kurds - pose legit threat to Saddam and the rest of middle eastern world and their way of life (no matter how wrong you think it may be) Saddam - poses "legit" threat to the US and our way of life... I'm not sure I see much of a difference in the [b][i]BASIC[/b][/i] (please read that word) reason of the two. As for Saddam's uncle, I was told from my History teacher that Saddam's uncle did come to power in Iraq, at one time or another. Now, I dunno where he got his information, but till I can see any other way, your credibility doesn't equal his so (I mean, you're not a college history professor are you?)... I'm in line to his information. (i'll check out the state department though) He may be wrong, I'm certainly not rulling that out... Maybe he did mean cousin and said the wrong word... I dunno. Thats what I heard though. Certainly, liek I've been saying this whole time, the reasons for this war are far and many. I think OIL is deffinantly one of the reasons, did the oil deal made recently with whatever that company Cheney used to run just come out of nowhere or was it a HUGE coincidence. I think another reason is that the government wants Saddam out for killing "his people."... another is that the US is trying to fix their mistake of giving Saddam weapons in the first place. We creates half that garbage down there, and now we need to fix it. I think another is definitely part that Bush wants to finish what daddy started. There's tons of reasons, alot they aren't saying. But the simple reasons because he is an evil satan like dictator is certainly not going to cut it as the only reason. There's more. There's more somewhere, some reasons they aren't telling us. There always is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 But Saddam is not a threat, and there is the point of diagreement. If half of the U.S. population didn't think him a threat, this war would not be engulfed in as much controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by {SITH} Change [/i] [B]But Saddam is not a threat, and there is the point of diagreement. If half of the U.S. population didn't think him a threat, this war would not be engulfed in as much controversy. [/B][/QUOTE] The people tend to fall in line with what the government tells them. Kinda contradicts the true meaning of democracy, but none-the-less. The government says Saddam is a threat. Whether or not he is really isn't up to us. You can believe, by our given rights as Americans (or Britains or Aussies) whatever you want, but you have no proof he is and no proof he isn't... as with anyone at war or in a deep conflict, leaders tend to stretch the truth, or flat out lie. Either side... who knows what anything is anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Well take my credibility for what you want, but your professor is off. Unless of course just about any source you find is wrong... which includes my source... the dept. of state. However, I think you should take the time for yourself... Try this address... [url]Http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/chron.htm[/url] updated on march 19 2003. part of the International informations program and luckily, I can confidently put down that address or link it... how ever that comes out, because I dont think it would be illegal or against site rules to link an official gov. site that has free access. (as it was done with the federal electoral commitee a couple of months ago with another thread) So once again, say what you want about my credibility, but I would think about a new school if your paying for that teachers lectures... unless he was just talking about something that was off subject. (you know, like if he is a political person who teaches math or something) Any way... I also want to point out that the kurds are innocent people, but if you would get off your horse of defense you would take the time to recognize that no matter what the people of kurdistan do... the women and children killed in the gas attacks of the late 80's were all innocent people. (you should be ashamed for ignoring those people and counting them all as threats to saddam in one blanketing statment.) The kurds are innocent, no matter what you think of them... but obviously youve never seen that video footage from the village of halabja. But since Ive had to mention that forsaken place so many times, I suggest that everyone of you goes and does the best search possible for what happend there. There is video of the after math and factual reports from human rights orginizations. (mothers and children holding each other, and frankly, it fills me with hate, anger and horrible depression.) We shouldnt even talk about those people out of respect, but some of you just keep ignoring the truth of the matter... just how much must be done and shown to you before you will recognize what was done to the INNOCENT people who are kurdish. Another thing that should be acknowledged is the fact that the kurds arent the only ones getting picked on. Its anyone who isnt a ba'ath party member and even members of that party, who oppose saddam that are tortured and killed. I just cant believe that you would try to justify your statments against this war.. instead of talking about the war, why dont all of you anti war people just bash on bush himself in a personal matter. It would make your real feelings clear to the rest of us and it would keep this discussion respectful to the people who are being oppressed by saddam. I really hate getting into it like this with you tn, not because of clashing minds, but because I would actually like to know that you respect me, but more importantly, you like me as a person. I dont believe you do either, but I will always put my feelings about these political/social/economic issues on the boards in the open for you and everyone to hear. And when I do that, I will always try to stay away from "flaming" and insults that are in just plain bad taste. =========================================== hell yea, the link worked... and all you mods please have some mercy on me. Its a .gov link so it isnt a commercial site. Please allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Like I said, my teacher could very well be wrong. I willt ake a look at the link though As for the Kurds... ok fine, some of them are innocent, but the ones fighting aren't... I'm not trying to portay them all as non-innocent people. I'm trying to portay the reason behind what Saddam is doing as not just killing his own people. They aren't his people, and they all aren't innocent people. Whether or not Saddam gassed them... I don't know anything about that, so I can't comment. I just know there's a rivalry... a rivalry thats been there as long as the US has EXISTED. To Saddam, there are no innocent Kurds.... whether or not they are is not the point. My point is giving reason to what Saddam is doing and not just "killing innocent people for the hell of it" like you insinuated he was doing. I'm far too tired to put up any more of in depth debate here. I don't even really see the debate... I'm just giving reason, not debating anything. We both seem to agree on the overall outcome of it, no matter what reasons behind the scenes may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Well I really do think you should stop with the kurds stuff if you really dont know about the gassing with the kurds. Talking about this sort of thing, when, by your own admission, you dont know... is just plain wrong from an intellectual side. I do appreciate your willingness to acknowledge these things, but you might want to think about them more before you get into it with people here, if your just gonna go back and say "I dont know anything about that." I do want to remind you, above all else, that you have been making blanket statments this whole time that it was the "kurds" and not the rebelious people who lived with the kurds that were the victims of Saddams genocide. Once again... Even with our disagreing here and there, and our agrement about other subjects, my respect for you grows when you are big enough to acknowledge it when you aren't as well informed as you could be. It takes a smart man to know the facts, but it takes an even smarter one to know when he is wrong. Those people in the kurdish villages like halabja were innocents through and through. I still want to mention that I do not believe saddams regime was threatend by the kurds. Maybe in just the same way that you dont believe Saddam is a threat to the world or the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I know about the Kurds and their past. Why they are so looked downed upon by the middle eastern community and that Saddam isn't the only one doing horrible things to them. I also know that their numbers pose a threat to Middle Eastern life. They must pose some threat, or Saddam wouldn't have attacked them in the way he did, neither would the other several middle eastern countries who have attacked them. Surely you must agree. Iraq and Iran have almost never got along, yet they could bother agree to take offensive actions on the Kurds... for no reason? There's a reason.... and I think that it is the threat they pose to Iraq, and surrounding countries. I don't know what Saddam DID to the Kurds. All I know is that he killed alot... how? It really doesn't seem to matter in the long run... innocent or not. Even if they weren't innocent people, we'd probably still look at Saddam the same way right now. I still want to refer back to the fact the Kurds neither consider themselves iraqi people and nor does Saddam consider them Iraqi people. Sure, Saddam could have and did kill millions of people, but they weren't his own. It seems to sound much worse when you refer to them as Iraqi people, insinuating they are under the rule of Saddam, which they aren't. Yes he killed millions of people, no not all those people were Iraqi people. I also do think Saddam poses some threat, I just don't think it's a) an immediate threat, b) that big a threat, and c) that war is not the way to deal with this. But that is a little late now, at least opinion C is. With as much as I disagree with it, there's nothing I can do but wait till it's over, and then probbaly years after that, to see what really is the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Well I can tell you specifically why Saddam attacked the Kurds... The Kurds were attacked by Saddam because of their affiliations during the 8 years war. The Kurds sided with Iran and not Iraq. Saddam would not tolerate insubordination in his totalitarian regime. The Kurds were punished for their views. That is specifically why the Kurds were killed with a mixture of 3 chemical gases. (ceron (sp?), vx, and antrax) byw, did you have the chance to check out the link? It addressed the subject of the last few post and I would appreciate it if you would actually look at it and check it out. I saw that you said you would if you had time... so I figure, being that you responded again, you just might have had the time. What ever the case, I hope this ends our discussion of this particular subject within the great subject. I also want to mention that it does very much matter whether or not those people were innocent. To me, if no one else. I just dont feel the same about a person being murdered when they are completly innocent compared to a person who is stained with the blood of innocents. And so you know, that link from the state department has the history of the chemical attacks too. It is a brief history, but it might do you well to read it over... and anyone else planning to respond to this thread. It will provide you a basic knowledge of the history of Iraq and Saddam making it possible for you to put forth a more educated and hence, more respectable opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 I'm sorry Gokents but in this case I believe TN is right about the Kurdish people. This is a [b]basic[/b] out line of what I know about them, and it is a generalisation. This is how they are a people having acted over the last thousand years or so. (Quote from the guy on lateline last night) -Breed like rabbits -Made small colonies in countries -Multiply until they have the numbers -Try to take over the country and impose a very nasty government -Get beaten down -Move somewhere else and try again All books I have read have support this chain of events. There are [i]not[/i] the angels that the tv is trying to portray them as, they are a burden to the Eastern world. From what I knew if you had them in your country you wouldn't won?t them. --- This is a very big generalisation that dose not run true for all but it is based on what I understand of their past and how they have acted. I also have nothing against Kurdish people and please don?t take it as offence to them. It is just a laying down of facts that I am aware of and I could be wrong. --- Anime_gurl you weren?t here in the last debate, James the now site manager made a very good post outlining why oil is not the reason for the war. Even myself (an anti-war person) agreed with it. So from then on oil hasn't come into our debates because most of us believe it to be only a side reason or dismiss it all together. I hope this explains Gokents reply? Quote | S@bretooth- I think the Kurdish people need their own country. A piece of real estate they can call their own. Just like the UN did for Israel, and what they should do for the Palestinians too. - GREAT IDEA!!! Why not give them a part of your country? Give them the millions that it would take to set up out of your own pocket. Kick the people off there land and give it to the Kurds for free. Don?t propose such a stupid idea. Maybe if there was some unclaimed land some where you could give them but no one is going to give away there land for some one else. Eps ? GW2, in a debate thread near you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Cloricus, I dont know what you honestly know of the Kurdish people and the chemical attacks on northern Iraq, but you should acknowledge the facts here. No matter how many of the kurdish people wanted to fight Saddam and his government the civilians of northern Iraq who were attacked by Saddam with his mixture of chemicals, no blanket statments you make can defend the actions taken by saddam or his motivations. Saddam attacked villiages and villiages are groups of people with no discretion about who is in them. Honestly, the more you and tn makes statments about the kurd's the more it becomes obvious that you havent seen that footage from halabja. I woulnt tell you how you should feel, but I can tell you that based on every idealistic theory and humanitarian ideal you have put forth in the past, you are being a heartless person. FIND THE FREAKING FOOTAGE. Just end this and see with your own eyes the women who died holding their young children. Frozen like the people killed in the volcano explosion at pompey. These people, no matter what you say were innocent. It is a sad, sad thing that you woulnt look or find the footage of these people. This stuff was horrible, I mean, disgusting. Your sitting there, hiding behind a computer screen and you will never see the things that these people saw, none the less the footage of the aftermath that I have seen. I just cant believe that people of the self proclaimed minority party would sit here and fight in defense of the reasoning behind Saddams genocide. (although the reasoning in this example isnt even the true reasoning.) Tell me cloricus, what were the "books" that you read to support the idea that the Kurds breed like rabbits and then move to different countries in an effort to overthrow governments. My basic point of this is the fact that right now, you and tn are defending the reasons supplied by Saddam to commite genocide. I will never accept that after what I have seen. Nor would you if you had seen these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloricus Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Gokents what I said had nothing to do with Saddam and his chemical attacks. I in [b][i]NO WAY AT ALL HAVE EVER[/b][/i] supported the actions Saddam and his Government took. Yes I have seen the footage you are talking about. I have seen uncensored footage as well. (Very hard to find.) And to tell you the truth it made me want to be sick. Now I agree 100% with you that what Saddam did was wrong. I disagree that the Kurds as a people are "innocents". Any way both sides of the arguments have been stated. Though I get the feeling TN might want to comment. Eps - WAR WAR WAR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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