Mitch Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [color=red] I'm not going to say much. I'm just mad. War is terrible.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sui Generis Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by enigma [/i] [B][COLOR=blue][I]Many people say that there should be a war, and to those of you that do, consider this. It is very easy to say 'GO TO WAR', but when you, your family or your friends are the people who are out in the front lines, in a situation that is kill or be killed, with the chance of harming innocents, and possibly coming back home, IF you come back home, completely insane from seeing horror after horror. Consider that, then we'll see what your thought is.[/COLOR][/I] [/B][/QUOTE] I don't think they are many people out there that WANT to go to war. War is an evil beast. It can do horrible things to you, but thats a chance you have to take. The people who protect our country volunteered to do so. With the job they have under taken they must except all possibilities. If the possibility of war was to greusome for them, they certainly would not have joined. I myself despise war. War is fascinating though. I mean it makes you wonder. What makes millions of humans turn against each other in an death-match to see who wins. Its like a large scale gladiator contest some times. Answer this question. Honestly. Do you not think that Bush has thought about this? Do you not think that he will be the one tossing and turning at night knowing he sent Americans to their deaths. What about Tony Blair. Who supports us in the war and is possibly sending over 40.000 Brittish troops? Sometimes in life things have to be done, that you don't want. The war is happening we have to accept it. If everyone is so anti-war because of al the lives that will be lost then I have an idea. How about you be quiet. How about you support your loved ones over there. The more you guys shout about how they are doing this for nothing, the more demoralized they get. I'm sure it'd be easier to fight for a country thats supporting you, then for one that even your own brother is saying the war is stupid. Take the time to think about that. Try to support the war, even if you are anti-war. If not for Bush, but for your loved ones over there.... Like we've said war is a greusome thing. It may very will traumatize the people that are going to war. Why make it harder on them by saying what they are doing means nothing? That them dying means nothing. *steps off his soap box quietly* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i] [B][color=red]I'm not going to say much. I'm just mad[/color][/B][/QUOTE] I'm with you there.. Everyone has their own views on the war anyway.. I'm not gonna argue about it because let's face it.. those of us that are pro-war aren't gonna budge their view point for a load of "hippies" or "tree huggers", and those of us who are anti-war aren't going to budge no matter how much incentives to go to war are given. My opinion is kind of varied and mixed.. it's essentially "I'm not for the war, but then I don't know all of the facts". And neither do any of you, you just believe different sources, most of which are just as unreliable as each other. You see, there's kind of a rule in media, which goes like "bad news sells better than good news" and I speak from actual experience on that matter, rather than a general dislike or cynicism towards the media. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i] [B]What about Tony Blair. Who supports us in the war and is possibly sending over 40.000 Brittish troops?[/B][/QUOTE] certainly not a decision he made lightly either.. he's had two (or was it more?) of his staff resign because of that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orien_Xel Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [color=blue]Why? Why should we just shut up and be little sheep? Because we might demoriliaze some troops? We care about the troops just as much as you do! We don't want them to get hurt! We don't want anyone to die! We do not just [b]HAVE[/b] to accept it! We can stand up and say "No, we do not want this war!". That is our right, and we will do so. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sui Generis Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i] [B][color=blue]Why? Why should we just shut up and be little sheep? Because we might demoriliaze some troops? We care about the troops just as much as you do! We don't want them to get hurt! We don't want anyone to die! We do not just [b]HAVE[/b] to accept it! We can stand up and say "No, we do not want this war!". That is our right, and we will do so. [/color] [/B][/QUOTE] Alright then why are you against this war? Why are you against any war? I'm not saying accept it. I'm not saying give up your views. (Sorry if it came across like that) I'm just saying support your troops that are giving up their lives for you freedom. You may not think this will have anything to do with your freedom, well guess what THEY do. Are you going to dis-regard their feelings just because you think its stupid? They are stating their opinion in the ultimate way. I think you should support them just as much as your support someone on OB that may have a different opinion than you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orien_Xel Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [color=blue]Well, I'm mainly against war because of all the suffering, death, misery, disease, hunger, etc. that it causes. I'm against it because of civilian deaths. I'nm against it because of children dieing before they can see things. That is why I'm against war.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i] [B][color=blue]Why? Why should we just shut up and be little sheep? Because we might demoriliaze some troops?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE] Exactly, all of you hippies are ready to pull another Vietname where when the soldiers return home, you'll be booing them and throwing cans at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sui Generis Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Just a thought...not trying to put down your ideals in any way, because I myself hate war for the very same reasons, but for the sake of debating. Don't these things happen anyways. In America thousands of babies are killed each day before they are born. Hundreds of people die each day from being murdered. Hunger goes on. This war is going to try and stop this things in Iraq. This war is attempting to make Iraq more safe for its people. I'm not going to even start on the whole "its only for the oil" for it gets me way to emotional. This war is trying to save people from worse fates then we can imagine. Thats what I believe.... Harry you can post your opinion without flaming and name calling, please attempt to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i] [B][color=blue] Remind me why we're going after Saddam again? Oh, wait, he has WMD. Or is it his connections to Al Queda? Or His flouting of International Law? WHich reason do we have today? That's another rerason I don't like this. Bush keeps switching the reason we're going in for. color] [/B][/QUOTE] That is actually perfect. Its not that the reason switches... its that those are all reasons for this sort of action. I also want to address enigma in the post reffering to the people urging war and "not knowing what it is." I want to ask you what makes you think you know war better than anyone else. You might want to take into consideration the words of a famus man and general who said that "no one loathes war more than the soldier." This is true of the soldiers families also. That said, I want to remind you that the majority of us who support military action are the same people who were raised in military families. (such as myself) Those who are protesting the war are usually the same ones who treat the soldiers themselves as bad people... regardless of your own opinion, this is the general demeanor of the anti-war protestors. With all the statments you made, I failed to see anything that supported the idea that Saddam should be left in power. Only the ideas that the "world" knows better. I really dont know if I should get into it... But the fierce opposition of this effort is headed by france. Other nations as well, such as russia and germany. With countries like that, we should be looking at the whole concept behind the drive for a non-war solution. (which was attempted for the last 12 years) Fact: France is the Number one dealer of conventional weapons to Iraq. (guns, jets...etc. thats why you see a "mirage fighter" doing mach chemical drops in intel videos) Fact: since 2001 France has done over 3.5 billion dollars worth of trade and dealing with Iraq. Fact: the only trip ever taken by Saddam out of Iraq itself was to meet with French officials just before purchasing the only Nuclear reactor to be established in Iraq. That reactor was made by and sold by... you guessed it, the french. Fact: chirac has known saddam since that very trip to france. Chirac was serving in a lower position and only begining his climb to power, yet there is still video footage that is commercially availible, of Saddam meeting with the leader of france, and his right hand man, Chirac. These are all just related to France, the world leader of the anti-war efforts. However, I want to make 2 major points and one speculatory prediction... 1.France has already come forth with a statment that "if Iraq uses chemical weapons... we are in with the coalition." Prediction: France will get in on the coalition efforts either way. 2. the coalition itself... 35 different countries and 15 others who wish not to be named. All those countries make for one heck of an international opinion. *pure speculation* Do you think its possible france is involved with those 15 countries wishing to be unnamed? I couldnt say, but 15 wishing to remain unnamed is an awefully odd scenerio for a world that doesnt approve... Or wait, actually its not wierd. It is a sign that the leaders of the world community recognize the need for this action, and the people of the world are just not willing to accept the actions lead by the U.S. non the less, the arch nemisis of all liberals any where... G. W. Bush BIG POINT... With in the last 20 minutes the highly respected:laugh: hans Blix has come out with a very specific statment... "well... if Iraq has fired scuds, then they are definatly in material breech." Keep those sorts of comments in mind if you think UNMOVIC was getting the job done. Note: Iraq fired scuds last night at kuwait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mnemolth Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lalaith Ril [/i] [B]Alright then why are you against this war? Why are you against any war? I'm not saying accept it. I'm not saying give up your views. (Sorry if it came across like that) I'm just saying support your troops that are giving up their lives for you freedom. You may not think this will have anything to do with your freedom, well guess what THEY do. Are you going to dis-regard their feelings just because you think its stupid? They are stating their opinion in the ultimate way. I think you should support them just as much as your support someone on OB that may have a different opinion than you... [/B][/QUOTE] This wasn't directed at me but I'll answer it anyway. I'm not against war per se. I'm not gonna cry that war is bad and blab about the suffering and the misery and so on. That's not the point. People suffered and were miserable in WWII, but that, in my opinion, was a just war. There is nothing 'just' about this war. It is unnecessary, and therefore, wrong and immoral, because war really should be the option of last resort. You go to war only when you absolutely have to, when there is no other way. You don't go to war rubbing your hands together with glee at how you can reshape the world with your military might. The second point has to do with soldiers. The western troops are NOT conscripts. They are volunteers. They signed up. This means they're professionals. Its their job to do what their political masters, our leaders, requires of them. Its not their job to have opinions or to express them. Of course when you go to war, you have to believe you're doing the right thing. So yes, I'm sure many of them think they're doing the right thing. But that's not why they're there. They're there because they're soldiers. They have signed up to fight for their country and they will do what their country demands of them. They don't pick their wars. They fight them. So yes, support the troops. Because they are there on our behalf. But that doesn't mean you have to support the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [color=green][size=1]Ok, sorry but I have to break in with my small opinions again. First off, we argue at not comparing Saddam to Hitler...I think its perfectly normal to compare the two, but what about Stalin? He killed more people than Hilter and Saddam. Most of his own...or I believe it was Stalin anyway. Another subject is comparing soldiers to civilians. There is a difference in a way, but they still are both human lives, and no life is more important than another. I'll repeat that again, NO LIFE is more important than another. Now, the difference is, soldiers are usually armed and trained in combat, when civilians are not, making it that soldiers can guard themselves easier, so don't really need saving or liberation. Now I have to say, a loss of ANY life is tragic, and just as tragic as another.(hence the no life is thing) But thats what comes with any war, and we need to accept it. We can rebel as much as we like, but usually and sadly it won't do much good. I feel rather strange typing this...considering I'm still in my P.J.s and I woke up only about 15 mins ago, but I think I've stated my tiny and vague opinions fairly well. Thats all for now. Thankyou.^^[/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i] I also want to address enigma in the post reffering to the people urging war and "not knowing what it is." I want to ask you what makes you think you know war better than anyone else. You might want to take into consideration the words of a famus man and general who said that "no one loathes war more than the soldier." This is true of the soldiers families also. That said, I want to remind you that the majority of us who support military action are the same people who were raised in military families. (such as myself) Those who are protesting the war are usually the same ones who treat the soldiers themselves as bad people... regardless of your own opinion, this is the general demeanor of the anti-war protestors. With all the statments you made, I failed to see anything that supported the idea that Saddam should be left in power. Only the ideas that the "world" knows better. [/QUOTE] [color=red] Gokents, you have no right to say such things. How in the hell do you even know what the people who are against war think? Me myself--I know a life. I know and I care. This right here is why I hate war. It is so damn pointless. We are fighting over seemingly nothing that will be stopped. Saddam isn't going to get caught. Obviously I can already see that. It's just pointless. We lose lives so that maybe, just maybe there will never be terroism. There will never be hate. This is so pointless to me. This war. There's 38 or so other countries out there that are just as bad or worse than Iraq. Why do we have to point fingers? Why? You have no right to say that we don't know war, because I know you yourself haven't even seen war. So we're all right and we're all wrong. As for Saddam? Of course I want him out of Iraq. We all do. But war isn't going to do that. Saddam will just run out on his people and lay low forever. He's going to be just like Osama. Already lives are dying over something that isn't worth it. War is never worth it--at least to me. So please, don't point fingers at us anti-war people like we're not even Americans for our stance. A life is more than a life. A death is more than a death.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTrunks Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 this war is just a way to pass time so we'll kill people and then have are friends and family killed but why not right? the price of gas is skrewed and well I guess I would go in to the war but I know I wouldn't come back the same so yeah I guess it all matters on what you think is the best result sense we are doing it I guess there were "no other choices" (my *****) I think we could've found everything out faster then we did and plus we knew about 9/11 before it happened and we didn't stop that cuz our nation loves bloodshed and war cuz it's a chance to prove our pride. ehh I mean strength.... well that's my input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mitch [/i] [B][color=red] Gokents, you have no right to say such things. How in the hell do you even know what the people who are against war think? Me myself--I know a life. I know and I care. This right here is why I hate war. It is so damn pointless. We are fighting over seemingly nothing that will be stopped. Saddam isn't going to get caught. Obviously I can already see that. It's just pointless. We lose lives so that maybe, just maybe there will never be terroism. There will never be hate. color] [/B][/QUOTE] I want to point out specifically that I did not say what I knew of war. I specifically asked you...what gives you the right to say we dont know war, or "what makes you think you know war better than anyone else here." I did specifically say the "general demeanor" of anti-war protestors. I also specifically pointed out that it was possible you did not fit that profile. How do I come to the conclusion that anti-war protestors generally dislike soldiers or do not consider them good people? I come to that conclusion based on the views of the leadership of anti-war protesting expressed on the world wide media level. People that openly say things like "being a soldier is immoral." That is not the sort of comment that makes for a person who supports the troops and hates the war... Oh no, these people are the sorts who do not distinguish between the war and the warrior. You may be a person who has their head on straight in their protesting, but that does not give you the right to A) flame me for the open statment of the truth, that anti-war protestors generally mistreat and show open hate for the soldeirs in the war and B) assume that you know what war is better than anyone here. I have not been in war, I have only seen war in the same ways as anyone else who has not been in it for themselves. I have only lost a parent to war. So watch your toungue because I will not sit back and let you flame me over the truth of the matter. Soldiers of consistantly mis treated by the majority of protestors and no matter what you as an individual may say, that statment will always remain true for as long as protestors continue to act as they have or allow the leadership amongst their ranks to represent thier orginizations as they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I still find war to be sense, immature, and full of stupidity. Any violence is like that. Just shows the peopel involved are to stupid to settle things by compromise and talks. I truely don't think the US is any better than Iraq for using force to get rid of who they think is a threat. If they do this I will expect every single dictator killing his people or others to be over thrown, but that won't happen, so this is just silly non-sense to me. But thats just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [color=crimson]It doesnt matter. Its already started, lol. So the petty infighting in this thread is what is stupid and immature. I wish the people on that side of the world the upmost luck in keeping safe.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathKnight [/i] [B][color=crimson]It doesnt matter. Its already started, lol. So the petty infighting in this thread is what is stupid and immature. I wish the people on that side of the world the upmost luck in keeping safe.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE] [color=green][size=1]Ditto, I totally agree with ya there, but people like to fight, human nature...oh well.^^()[/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [quote]If everyone is so anti-war because of al the lives that will be lost then I have an idea. How about you be quiet. How about you support your loved ones over there. The more you guys shout about how they are doing this for nothing, the more demoralized they get.[/quote] [b]Lalaith, people protest because they are against war and don't want to get anyone to hurt. If you hated war so much, I'm sure you would understand that. Some people don't want to support their loved ones [i]over there[/i], they want them back home, safe, sound and happy. I am completely oppposed to striking now. Yes, Iraq has had sufficient time to disarm and comply with England and America, but they're not any extremely real threat at the moment anyway. Also, America and Britain are only causing further problems for themselves within their own governments, with the UN and other nations such as China by striking now. China have already warned America and Britain to end the campaign now, along with France and Germany expressing their objections to the 'war'. Millions of people have protested all over the world, yet America and Britain don't even flinch on their stance of war with Iraq. A few English Ministers have resigned already, and a rather large rebellion in a recent vote means the Labour goverment (currently in power) is split down the middle, Tony Blair relying on the opposition parties for support. This is insane. Whatever happened to the power of the people and democracy? Neither goverments listened to [i]enormous[/i] opposition from the public, England seeing one of the largest demonstrations ever, with over a million turning out to protest against war. Opinion polls showed around 80% of people in England were against war with Iraq, but still we go ahead. Another thing: The UN is going to crash and burn. After World War 2 the UN was set up with Britain and America pioneering the idea of a group of nations far more powerful than the League of Nations (a group of nations not including the US that poorly acted on military situations in the 1930s, especially the Nazi rise/invasions). When 2 largest powers within the UN turn a blind eye and go against a veto, votes and rules defined within the UN what's the point of it being there? To me the whole democratic approach was just America and Britain 'testing the water', seeing if they could resolve peacefully but if not more than willing to commit to war. The UN is supposed to be some sort of moderatory power to all member nations, with clear guidelines and rules set out for all to follow. In my opinion sanctions should be imposed on both Britain and America for going straight to war with no absolutely clear (where's the [i]real[/i] evidence?) reason or agenda. The UN is there to do what it has to when trouble erupts in the world, and this time America and Britain are causing it. America and Britain should not create rules they cannot adhere to themselves. So, in some ways I'm saying it's partly the UN's fault for not doing something against America and Britain for striking againts Iraq, as I'm sure they would to [i]any[/i] weaker nation taking action like this. Welcome to the golden age of democracy. Enjoy.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 The UN is a joke. Like the League of Nations. It hasn't, won't, and never will accomplish anything. It's like a spoiler on a Toyota Camry, it's only for the looks. Sure the idea is great, but it simply won't work, especially when we disregard everything they say. As you said, whats the point in it even existing. None. It was Wilson's idea for the League of Nations, which we didn't join because we were afraid of the commies, and FDR's idea for the UN, which we did join just to say we're cool. The league of Nations didn't do anything, even though that was the only of Wilson's 14 points we kept, and it was a complete waste of time. The UN is almost the same way. It's been around longer, but thats about it. As with what we've seen recently, the UN serves no purpose but to look good it seems. Maybe a few influencial things here and there, but obviously, we Americans are too good and right for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [quote]The UN is a joke. Like the League of Nations. It hasn't, won't, and never will accomplish anything. It's like a spoiler on a Toyota Camry, it's only for the looks. Sure the idea is great, but it simply won't work, especially when we disregard everything they say. As you said, whats the point in it even existing. None. It was Wilson's idea for the League of Nations, which we didn't join because we were afraid of the commies, and FDR's idea for the UN, which we did join just to say we're cool. The league of Nations didn't do anything, even though that was the only of Wilson's 14 points we kept, and it was a complete waste of time. The UN is almost the same way. It's been around longer, but thats about it. As with what we've seen recently, the UN serves no purpose but to look good it seems. Maybe a few influencial things here and there, but obviously, we Americans are too good and right for them.[/quote] [b]A few points: America didn't join because of the Communists. In fact, the Soviet Union wasn't a member until a few years before WW2. The reason America didn't join was because they weren't interested in Europe's affairs and were isolationist at the time. Also, Wilson's fourteen point plan was never adhered to. Most of it was dismissed as impossible and idealistic. I agree with your "UN looking good" point though, that's all the UN seems to be doing recently.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I'd like to point out that this topic is a [i]debate[/i], not a fight. If you can't control your temper and your keyboard, stay out of the topic. Let's not let this turn into another war of our own. I'll stop it before it goes that far. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuoMax Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i] [B] anti-war protestors generally mistreat and show open hate for the soldeirs in the war [/B][/QUOTE] Excuse me? But we do [b]NOT[/b] hate the soldiers for their chosen profession. It's their choice to defend this country. My problem is that tey are being sent to die in a forign(sp?) country. That has nothing to do with defeneding my freedoms. I don't like saddam, but i don't believe war is going to work. Oh yes, maybe YOU should stop flaming and insulting those who don't agree with you. Thats all i have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Elite [/i] [B][b]A few points: America didn't join because of the Communists. In fact, the Soviet Union wasn't a member until a few years before WW2. The reason America didn't join was because they weren't interested in Europe's affairs and were isolationist at the time. Also, Wilson's fourteen point plan was never adhered to. Most of it was dismissed as impossible and idealistic. I agree with your "UN looking good" point though, that's all the UN seems to be doing recently.[/b] [/B][/QUOTE] Russia may not have been part of the League, but they were still communist as of 1917 when the Boslviks took over int he revolution. The threat was still there, in europe specifically. The US fears communism would spread like wildfire, and then ultimately control the League, and then over run America, had it been part of it. Yes I know, hence what I said, the League of Nations was the only one of the 14 points to make it anywhere. And that itself, is idealistic and was ultimately impossible to do what it was intended to do. [quote][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i][b] anti-war protestors generally mistreat and show open hate for the soldeirs in the war[/b][/quote] Thats a 60's mentality. That is not going on today in mass number like you suggest. You cannot generalize based on a few cases. Thats like me saying "White people generally hate black people" because I saw 5 KKK members speaking to people. I have not heard one story of anyone showing open hate or mistreating any soldier in todays war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Asuka Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 [color=hotpink][size=1]Tori is pro-war. That she is. I mean, I hate the fact that it comes down to it, but desperate times call for desperate measures and the US has been threatened enough. That's all I have to say...[/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinobi Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 To be honest, i am for war [b]this time.[/b] Of coarse no one wants war, but in this case i do, it was obvious that he still had weapons and wasn't going to give him up, and I think France are making a mistake, i mean, what's the point in giveing him more time...just to nuke some poor country in 10 years time, or less! So yeah, I am for [b]this[/b] war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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