Orien_Xel Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [color=blue]I believe DouMax was referring to the Imperialistic tendencys (conquering other countries, etc.) Not to atrocities commited. (Although we do train terrorists at the School of the Americas to support American puppet regimes in Centeral and Southern AMerica) Once again, thats my ranting for now...[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMax [/i] [B]I compare USA and England to germany and Itay in WW2. I mean, after iraq, whos next? Iran, North korea, Syria, France, Germany, Canada, china? his hole war buisness really sucks. [/B][/QUOTE] I still can't believe you people are defending a person who said this. Can you honestly tell me that I am calling you ignorant for oppossing the war? Hell no, Im calling people ignorant for supportting this specific statment. This is just garbage and you should all really think about where you stand as intellectuals if you can't establish the obvious (atleast to me) difference between the two groups in this comparison. Ignorance is not established by my statment declaring one of you is ignorant... Ignorance is established by saying things that the intelligent and independant thinkers of the community percieve to be ignorant. We will see with time on this one, but I am sure that this statment was ignorant and totally lacking of intellectual value. I also want to say that I am quite suprised by veggeto 4 supportting such a statment. I was under the impression you, veggeto, were more reasonable than to support the view that the liberating army of america is comparable to the Nazi Germany war machine. I am confident that even my most vocal and well spoken opposition, trans nerve, will be able to see the rediculus nature of this statment. (of course, you never know, I just might be wrong about him too:whoops: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [color=green][size=1]I've got to side with gokents for this one. That statement wasn't made clearly, therefore implying that the U.S. and U.K. are well...horrid genociding countries. I really don't agree. The U.S. and U.K. are fighting for the world, and for Iraq and the countries surrounding it. Not for themselves specifically. Plus DuoMax provided horrid grammar and spelling errors, and that just...well I can't stand that sometimes.>>[/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [size=1][color=darkblue] It is mot right for anyone to assume that someone has gone to hell unless you knew the complete circumstances. If the Iraqi never knew god, God would still accept him because he didn't know. God is a fair and impartial judge. The Iraqi population is certainly not evil. The [i]want[/i] Saddam gone. I havent seen the guy beating the image of Saddam with a shoe, but I say, good on him! I hope Iraq can come out of this a stronger, united country. [/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orien_Xel [/i] [B][color=blue]I believe DouMax was referring to the Imperialistic tendencys (conquering other countries, etc.) Not to atrocities commited. (Although we do train terrorists at the School of the Americas to support American puppet regimes in Centeral and Southern AMerica) Once again, thats my ranting for now...[/color] [/B][/QUOTE] Once again I see no comparison. I look at Afghanistan and see groups of ethniticities all joining again as one nation who are now capable of ruling themselves without an oppressive reigme. This is the same with Iraq. We are not persuing Imperialistic ideals... We are giving the country back to the people it truely belongs to. Imperialism does not include freeing people from their oppressive leader and then giving the country back to its oppressed inhabitants. That is liberation, not explotation. ------------------------------------ I also want to remind all of you here on the "otaku" boards that Japan is also taking part in the coalition of the willing. (not that you would really care about that... just an interesting side note.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Webb Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 See that line? No, not that one. This one... [center]-------------------m-a-k-i-n-g----s-e-n-s-e----------------------[/center] Yeah, comparing U.K. and U.S. to Nazi Germany and Facist Italy may just have crossed it a little. For starters, both societies were facist. Last I checked, neither the U.S. or U.K. built special camps or death chambers, although one might find the modern definition of a "ghetto" in certain inner cities. I can't begin to say what's wrong with that comparison. It's just... odd. *begins to wonder why almost no one has addressed his previous question* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [color=crimson]I just thought i'd butt in here to state something. I find it really odd to be watching CNN's 'embedded reporters'- It almost makes it feel like i'm playing some sort of video game, it just doesnt feel like war. Just watching the tanks sit around and get refueled, watching the soldiers stand at the top of their tanks and stretch around. I'm just not used to tanks not being in combat consistantly. Anyone else finding this something you arent used to yet?[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I agree with you there, Ken. It does all seem a little 'unreal', especially for me, living in such a far-off part of the world which hasn't seen any military action... uh, ever. *Plays Red Alert 2; Iraq Vs. America. Iraq wins. Coincidence?* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pressure Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel [/i] [B]I just hope no more kids do these stupid school walkouts. They get to leave school (how convenient, considering how many kids just [i]love[/i] school), and complain about stuff most don't even seem to understand. That 60 Minutes report on it didn't help their image much either lol. Oh well. [/B][/QUOTE] [color=purple][size=1]:therock: I did.. And I'm proud to say that I was one of 6 people with the guts to stare the administrators in the face and walk out of school anyway.. We are people too.. Just because we are underage does NOT mean we don't have voices and opinions.. Aren't we the future? Then why not listen to us? It was a peaceful protest.. All we did was sit on the ground.. Infront of a tree.. In the quad.. We didn't do anything else.. We just sat there.. People joined us at free will.. Well.. The ones who weren't afraid to.. We want awareness of our thoughts, feelings, and opinions too.. None of us support the war.. It's just a power struggle.. This isn't about disarming missles.. This isn't about freeing the Iraqi people.. This isn't about oil.. This is about Mr.High and Mighty President tramping around and trying to show which country wears the big britches.. It's pointless.. No one likes to admit defeat.. Especially not someone in control of a country.. Don't get me wrong.. I do not support Saddam.. At all.. I'm all for freeing the Iraqi people.. But not with war.. War accomplishes nothing in the end.. Only death.. And, might I pose a question? Who the hell are we, to play righteous lords, and attempt to save the Iraqi people? Do we REALLY have that right? Are we supposed to set an example as Americans? We have the highest rate of illiteracy, homelessness, domestic abuse, drug abuse, etc, and we are supposed to be an example? How can we save another country full of people, if we cannot even save ourselves?[/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [i]Originally posted by Harry:[/i] [quote][b]For the People not supporting it, they didn't support stepping in when Hitler was invading either. And this applies directly to England too. [/b][/quote] [color=#808080]Not true, actually. At least, not true in Australia's case. Australia lost over 1 million troops in WWII. We could have easily argued that Germany was nowhere near us...and therefore, we wouldn't have to be involved. But we [i]were[/i] involved because we saw the importance of defending Europe's freedom. And we wanted to express support for the United States and Britain in the strongest possible terms. We made that decision, as a people, because we understood how important it was to defeat Hitler. And so, even though Hitler was not a threat to us, we took action. I might remind you also that 1 million was [i]one sixth[/i] of our population during the 1940's. Also, after sending massive numbers of troops to Europe, we were attacked on our own doorstep -- both Darwin (our northern most major city) and Sydney (our most populated city) were both attacked by Japan directly. Thousands of our troops died in Papua New Guinea, defending that nation from Japan. So, as far as Australia goes...we might be relatively small, but I don't think anyone can say that we don't back up our position on International issues.[/color] [i]Originally Posted by DuoMax:[/i] [quote][b] compare USA and England to germany and Itay in WW2. I mean, after iraq, whos next? Iran, North korea, Syria, France, Germany, Canada, china? his hole war buisness really sucks.[/quote][/b] [color=#808080]Duo, I'm sorry...but that comment is completely unjustified in any sense. There is one clear example that I'd like to illustrate for you -- which will singlehandedly demonstrate why your comment is 100% unjustified. When Germany attacked other nations, what did she do? She conquered them. She took them over and absorbed them into her empire. But, what happened when the United States defeated Germany and Japan? Did it absorb 'em into some sort of empire? No. The United States defeated both nations and then [i]gave power back[/i] to their citizens. And now look at them -- Japan is the world's second largest economy and it's also a democracy with freedom of speech. Same goes for Germany. The United States, in both cases, was not a conquerer or an Imperial power. No; it was a liberator. And the same example will be demonstrated in Iraq. For you or anyone to suggest that the United States is an imperial power is not only totally and utterly false, but it also demonstrates an ignorance in relation to the country's history.[/color] [i]Originally Posted by Transtic Nerve:[/i] [quote][b]However a full out war... I dunno if thats ever really the answer... it may be the quick easy way, but thats what America is about eh? Quick and easy.[/b][/quote] [color=#808080]I dunno, Chris. I really think you're starting to draw a long bow here. All the WWI/II stuff...I don't know if you're terribly confident in your own points sometimes. Earlier today, when speaking to Pressure, I used an analogy in relation to Iraq. I told her about having a sore tooth. If you have a rotten tooth and you simply leave it there because you're afraid to pull it out...what happens? It gets worse. It potentially infects your blood stream. It causes infections in your gum. In the end, if you leave it, you pay ten fold for that decision. But what happens if you pull it out right away? You [i]know[/i] that it's rotten and you know what will happen if you leave it. So, if you pull it out immediately, you can get rid of it. Sure -- you'll suffer temporary pain and fear. But once it's over, you will not regret your decision. You will have saved yourself a [i]lot[/i] of pain in the future. It may seem like a silly analogy, but I think it's accurate. Whatever we do, we will feel pain. If we leave Iraq as it is and do nothing...we'll pay a massive price in future (when Iraq actually [i]does[/i] posess large delivery systems and nuclear weapon technologies). But if we nip this problem in the bud now, we'll suffer short term pain for sure...but that pain will be more short lived and will be substantially less than it might otherwise be.[/color] [i]Originally Posted by Orien_Xel:[/i] [quote][b]Gokents, I have a question how come when we disagree with you, you call us unitelligent? Just because you disagree dosen't give you the right to call us unintelligent, stupid, idiotic, etc. That is not fair to people trying to express their opinions and is called FLAMING!!! You can't just call us "ignorant" and expect us to automatically say "Oh! We were wrong the entire time! Lets flock to the other side!!" All you are doing is driving us even further from your viewpoint! You are just showing YOUR ignorance. How can you? [/b][/quote] [color=#808080]Gokents is not making these claims [i]because[/i] he disagrees with you. If you make an uninformed point, as DuoMax did, then I think it's reasonable to expect people to respond to that. Of course, I don't support direct personal attacks (calling someone stupid or something), but by the same token, if you demonstrate yourself to be misinformed...what more can you expect? You can be anti-war if you like, but there's no need to compare the USA to Nazi Germany or something -- not because it's disrespectful, but because it's not actually factual.[/color] [quote][b]EDIT: I'd just like to tell you all that we (war protesters) DO NOT support Saddam! We think he is a horrible person! But we do not want war! I know he has done horrible things! We do not contest that!!! We do not want war! We think there is a better way of dealing with him! Before you ask "Well, how?" I will tell you this: Get to the people. Bombing his people will not get them to like you. Might I add that Bin Laden WANTS this war? It will mean thousands if not millions for new recruits for him! Thats all my ranting for now... [/quote][/b] [color=#808080]A couple of points here. Firstly, there is this misnoma that we're "bombing his people". Wrong. Have you even been following the war so far? Do you realize, in comparison to the number of warheads launched, the insanely [b]low[/b] civilian casualties? You're underestimating the accuracy of today's weapons systems. You're also misjudging the intentions of the allied coalition. Firstly, we can see (based on any information that you look at), that these targets are not civilian targets. In fact, few of them have even been [i]near[/i] or within proximity to any civilian buildings or sites. In addition, I would remind you of two important facts: 1) Massive amounts of aid are already on their way to Iraq. The aid is being shipped by the coalition forces, to feed both civilians and surrendering Iraqi soldiers. 2) In at least two cities in southern Iraq, there were scenes of people [i]celebrating[/i] on the sides of the street as coalition forces moved through. These people were jubilant when the forces arrived. That is [i]hardly[/i] the sign of people who disapprove of military intervention in their country -- these people have been murdered, raped and tortured by their own President. And therefore, they are pleased to see the International community [i]finally[/i] living up to its own commitments and removing that internal threat.[/color] [quote][b]I believe DouMax was referring to the Imperialistic tendencys (conquering other countries, etc.) Not to atrocities commited. (Although we do train terrorists at the School of the Americas to support American puppet regimes in Centeral and Southern AMerica) Once again, thats my ranting for now... [/b][/quote] [color=#808080]Once again, refer to my above comments. The belief that the United States has Imperialistic tendancies is so blatantly false and so dismissive of history that it totally erodes your credibility in any political debate.[/color] [i]Originally Posted by Pressure:[/i] [quote][b]Who the hell are we, to play righteous lords, and attempt to save the Iraqi people? Do we REALLY have that right? Are we supposed to set an example as Americans? We have the highest rate of illiteracy, homelessness, domestic abuse, drug abuse, etc, and we are supposed to be an example? How can we save another country full of people, if we cannot even save ourselves?[/quote][/b] [color=#808080]I won't respond to your entire post, because my previous posts and our AIM discussion have really cleared up my own position on this subject. However, there is one thing I want to point out to you. Firstly, we have to understand that this isn't just America "playing righteous lords" -- a coalition of [b]40[/b] nations is involved here. This is a simple case of the international community deciding to remove a threat -- a threat not just to surrounding nations, but also a threat to the Iraqi people. Things are going very well so far (better than anyone expected -- even the military) and based on the early reception to troops, I'd say that the Iraqis are going to be thankful to our coalition for many decades to come.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sui Generis Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMax [/i] [B]Thats because of the sanctions and embargoes that have been placed on Iraq by the U.S. and the U.N. [/B][/QUOTE] Yes but its Saddam's fault. He was given the opportunity to life those sanctions by doing certain things. He didn't do them so the punishment was thousands of his people starving to death. The U.N and the U.S have giving him plenty of opportunities to help his people out, but Saddam refuses. Its almost as he wants them to suffer. (What a concept) So I don't think it'd be right to place the blame of his people suffering on another country. Not sure if you were trying to or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i] [B][color=#808080]I dunno, Chris. I really think you're starting to draw a long bow here. All the WWI/II stuff...I don't know if you're terribly confident in your own points sometimes. Earlier today, when speaking to Pressure, I used an analogy in relation to Iraq. I told her about having a sore tooth. If you have a rotten tooth and you simply leave it there because you're afraid to pull it out...what happens? It gets worse. It potentially infects your blood stream. It causes infections in your gum. In the end, if you leave it, you pay ten fold for that decision. But what happens if you pull it out right away? You [i]know[/i] that it's rotten and you know what will happen if you leave it. So, if you pull it out immediately, you can get rid of it. Sure -- you'll suffer temporary pain and fear. But once it's over, you will not regret your decision. You will have saved yourself a [i]lot[/i] of pain in the future. It may seem like a silly analogy, but I think it's accurate. Whatever we do, we will feel pain. If we leave Iraq as it is and do nothing...we'll pay a massive price in future (when Iraq actually [i]does[/i] posess large delivery systems and nuclear weapon technologies). But if we nip this problem in the bud now, we'll suffer short term pain for sure...but that pain will be more short lived and will be substantially less than it might otherwise be.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE] I am all for the removal of Saddam in one way or another. Actually I guess that rather contradicts what i said earlier... The removal of Saddam... i dunno. I guess i'm not seeing this war as a Saddam related thing. I'm just afraid that because we use relentless force upon an Arab kingdom that other countries may get more mad at the US and it's allies and continue to harbour and train more terrorist which will be an even more potential threat to us. Which I don't want. This may sound naive and stupid but to tell you the truth, I'd rather have Saddam kill his own people before the anger caused by us ousting him to be resulted in another 9.11 attack. It may not end up this way. I also feel that the Bush administration is not being truthful when refering to "why" we are at this war. They say because he's done this and that and not complied here or there. But if thats the case, I 100% expect him to be in North Korea next month or whenever Then he's gonna have to go to Africa and rid them of the tyrany there, and then to the many other countries that are just as bad as Saddam, but I don't think he will do that. I don't think the Bush administration has any plans to do any of those things, besides maybe MAYBE North Korea. That just says to me he only cared about Saddam to either take care of what the former relations of the US have been, or to just get our minds off of the crappy economy and the crappy way the administration has been handling it. I suppose those are my two main reasons for not going to any war. Although I still fell war to be senseless with my own personal feelings. I will never fight for this country. I will never sacrafise my life in battle for anyone. Thats just how I feel. And I can't be for something that goes against how I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [color=green][size=1]*Cheers for James*Yay! Wonderous points made, I'm so glad you stepped in. He's right people, in every single point he made....at least that I can agree with. I've just got to agree with every point he made(not because I'm trying to be all goodie or something, because I really do agreeOo) The U.S, U.K, Australia, and many other countries are fighting not for a new country they can add on, but for the freedom of that country. Like he said, the US conquered Japan and Germany in the war, and the US could have easily taken them, but did they? No. They helped them set up a new governement, and now they are both very successful and great countries. Thats all the US is trying to do for Iraq as well. Seeeeeee??[/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Pressure, if we don't have the right to free an oppressed people, who does? Did France have the right to aid us against Britain in the Revolution? Do you expect them to free themselves? Hah, I hope not. And also, this is to all who say war is not the way to solve things: Tell me then, if war is not, what is? Can you not look at history and tell what must be done? Do you think America would've ever gained her independence through talks? Do you think the Magna Carta would've ever been signed without force? Do you think Hitler would've ever stopped without WWII? The answer to all these is 'no'. Do you think Saddam will ever just randomly say "Hey, I've become a cruel dictator who kills his own people, I think I'll give up this absolute authority(which has seemingly corrupted me absolutely) and go and live a peaceful life in the desert." You choose your own answer to this question. Maybe if some of y'all were the ones hung from the ceiling and raped or dropped feet-first into a wood-chipper, you might see what a corrupt man is capable of. Granted, Saddam is no Hitler...but do you think he wouldn't be, if he had the power? I'm not a warmonger. I think war is horrible; but I also understand that, unfortunately, war is a necessary thing. History is the greatest teacher. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinnyLyn Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Justin is reiterating the point I was trying to make earlier, about how some things just can't be solved by any other way but force. And James has, by far, been the most informative here. Let us all continue to seek out the most non-biased info on all this. And let's not let our opinions of each other corrode simply because of this one topic. (I personally feel the constant "Well, my opinion of you just dropped because of how you approached such and such in your moment of emotional weakness" is prompting half the flaming and lashing out, so if we could ease up on that? ;)) Here's to a continued hope that this war shall soon pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i] [B]Pressure, if we don't have the right to free an oppressed people, who does? Did France have the right to aid us against Britain in the Revolution? I'm not a warmonger. I think war is horrible; but I also understand that, unfortunately, war is a necessary thing. History is the greatest teacher. -Justin [/B][/QUOTE] Your first point is an excellent one that I had not seen made yet to date. Thank you for making such a perfectly relevant argument. Second off, Your second point is also a perfect point, but this time, the comment has been made a dozen times. How many times will people have to say this before others understand that no one likes war. In the simplest terms I can put it... War is like taking out the trash, no one likes to do it, but if you dont do it, eventually your gonna be in a far worse scenerio than you would have been had you taken out the trash. The ideas of a better world and a more peacful humanitarian society are not possible without facing the dark elements of the world and eleminating them. I also gotta ask if any of you have seen this new system of a down video my brother caught and then made me watch? It is a perfect example of how bad things can be when celebrities are respected as politcal, educated and intelligent figures. ================================ I also wanted to mention that the 4 marines reported as being killed were not killed and infact all four are alive, only injured. (these were not the marines on the doomed helicopter.) The situation boils down to the fact that a reporter saw the vehicle get hit and then reported that all four died, when infact there was no verification of it and the reporter was just shooting off his worst fears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Webb Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Actually, a sociopath would probably like war. But that's beside the point... I agree with TN. I don't think we're being told the whole story about why we're going to war. It just feels like some very important element is missing from the equation; like there's a clear and obvious reason for this war that we're not being told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 There are clear and obvious reason for this war, lol. The first being that, whether he's acted yet or not, Saddam is a legitimate threat to the world. James' tooth decay analogy is excellent for demonstrating this. The second being they way he treats people. He needs to be removed. There are some who are just too crazy to be here. Especially with any authority. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Can we start on China next? Or North Korea? I want to unify africa under democracy! Lets get going! Plently of crule dictators to overthrow, no time to waste! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Justin [/i] [B]There are clear and obvious reason for this war, lol. The first being that, whether he's acted yet or not, Saddam is a legitimate threat to the world. James' tooth decay analogy is excellent for demonstrating this. The second being they way he treats people. He needs to be removed. There are some who are just too crazy to be here. Especially with any authority. -Justin [/B][/QUOTE] I believe thats right, but I believe there's more... something... more indepth, more reason we aren't being told. These are just "cover stories" albeit true ones to justify our want to go to war. With the second point though, to be completely justified, Bush would then have to rid the world of all opressive governments and dictators. Which I don't believe he'll do. Although I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 Do the American people have any idea how much it costs? Iraq is costing 200 Billion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by {SITH} Change [/i] [B]Do the American people have any idea how much it costs? Iraq is costing 200 Billion... [/B][/QUOTE] What does it matter? I'm well aware that it costs that much, but what does it really matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 We are paying for it...Not any other countires, we are...If we take it from the oil fields, we just villify the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by {SITH} Change [/i] [B]We are paying for it... [/B][/QUOTE] They'd spend it on something else too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 I really believe that if al gore was president and doing this, there would be not even half of this protesting. I honestly believe that this is all about protesting president bush and not the war. Protesting the war is just "a cover story." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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