DuoMax Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 I am putting this thread here to find out which side you people support. I, personally, support the Palestinians . Plese note that I do NOT condone the suicide bombings or violence of any kind. Please do not turn this into a flame war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 [size=1][color=darkblue] I respect your decision to support the palestinian movement, even I would like to see a Palestine state, it's only fair. You do realise that this whole scat between the two is over one little hill? In fact, it's the [b]temple[/b] Mount. Home of the israeli place of worship, the wailing wall, and the muslim place of worship, where Mohammud ascended to heaven. The israeli's want to build a third temple, to replace their destroyed ones. However, the Muslims do not want to give up Dome of the Rock, it's a realy sticky situation however, it fulfils bible prophecy of the last times, time which we could all be seeing soon if I am correct of course. So, i support Israel because it is their land. Meanwhile, I also bel;ieve a palestinian state can be achieved also, it's not so hard to satisfy both sides, it is petty wars that keep it all at bay. No one is willing to back down, they need to really work it out though. [/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuoMax Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 That is totally true. My main probolem with the Israelis is that their soldiers are out using M16s to respond to kids throwing rocks. Talk about using hammer to swat a fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.D. Ryoko Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I don`t know who to support. I don`t mean to sound rude or anything but this is my oppion. I think this war is silly. I am sure there is some peaceful way that they can settle the dispute over the land. Why do humans have to kill so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoMax [/i] [B]That is totally true. My main probolem with the Israelis is that their soldiers are out using M16s to respond to kids throwing rocks. Talk about using hammer to swat a fly. [/B][/QUOTE] [size=1][color=darkblue] Yeah, the israeli army is completely going about it the wrong way. i gives the impression all israelis hate muslims, when it is simply not the case. they are both as bad as each other, and just becaus ethe bible says the Jews are the chosen ones, doesn't mean they have to tramle others woith the whole "holier than thou" attitude. It really bugs me. [/size][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuoMax Posted March 22, 2003 Author Share Posted March 22, 2003 ya. and bulldozing peopes house? i think it just make speople disike them more. One time I saw this realy interesting movie this woman made in palestine. she inerviewed these kids who were talking about how they didn't care if they lived with the Isralis. they just want peace. sheesh...from the mouth of babes and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I don't support either side. The only reason the state or Irael exists is because WE made it after WWII. I just say they should split Jerusalem up into three part, like they did Berlin (although only 2), so that the Jews can have what they want, the Muslims can have what they want, and the Christians can have what they want. Senseless fighting over the "holy land" is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 That would be impossible, Chris. As was said, it's that hill that they all want. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I can worship God just as well here as there, and I can read my Bible just as well here as there. I personally support Isreal. Firstly, because I'm a Christian and(if you're a Christian) it would be foolish not to. Secondly, because the land belongs to Isreal. Not only because the US gave them that land after WWII, but also because it was there's before Rome took it from them. That is, of course, the natural way of global politics in history, but if you want to take that stance, so is our giving that land back to them. Having said that, I don't think any hostile Palestinian should be given any territory. If he wants to try and kill people he should be treated as a murderer. Nothing more, nothing less. However, I also don't think the Isrealis have any right to just go off shooting people either. It may be their land, but they should only punish those who commit crimes. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Well if they all can't have it then nobody needs to have it. After all it's just causing more bad thigns to happen. Seems rather ridiculous... fighting over some little hill, no matter what meaning it has. I guess peopel are too blinded by faith to see what truely is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Webb Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I can see why they've been battling for so long, what with Islam and Judaism being completely different religions and all. I mean, it's not like Islam was derived(sp?) from Judaism or anything. That would involve something ludicrous, like the Torah and Quar'ran sharing similar books in their holy texts. Wait a minute... Yeah, so I don't support either side. I think they're both being incredible petty and (dare I say) stupid. However, I don't see a simple solution. There won't be peace until there are two independant countries named Palestine and Israel, and both contain the city of Jerusalem (but not sharing the same city). And why? Because (and I'm using a generalization, here) both sides are blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delian Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I'm in full support with Palestine, although I do not support suicide bombings. Palestine had always been Palestine since the dawn of time. It consisted many different ethnic groups living together peacefully. It was only about 3000 years ago Palestinians allowed the Jews to live peacefully in a small part of Palestine. However, as soon a the Jews felt that they were strong enough to initiate troubles, that's when problems arose. Isreal had never really existed except in the belief and in the mind of the Jew. At the time of the Roman Empire, Palestine still existed however under Roman control. It was only after WWI when the British occupiers of Palestine had started to help the Jews gaining momentum and providing them with weapons and support. After world warII the Britain with the support of the other victorious nations in that war, voted in favour of a Jewish state on a part of fertile crescent(of which Palestine is only a part)land. Since then, the American tax- payers were supporting Israel through billions of dollars paid to the created state of Israel each year. This helped the Jews to commit more attrocities against the people of Palestine and the the region. Today more than 10 Palestinians are massacred each day under the sight of the so called civilised nations. The great American heroist Rachel Corrie knew about these attrocities and tried to do something about them when the Israeli bulldozer ran over her. She was recently in the news so i'm sure some of you know about her. [COLOR=firebrick]PLEASE NOTE[/COLOR] All this information is expressed objectively and with the knowledge of this part of history. For whoever who doesn't believe any of the above should consider learning more about the history of Palestine and Syria and also a book called "The International Jew" - The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, written by Henry Ford, the founder of the Ford Motor Company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B]I can see why they've been battling for so long, what with Islam and Judaism being completely different religions and all. I mean, it's not like Islam was derived(sp?) from Judaism or anything. That would involve something ludicrous, like the Torah and Quar'ran sharing similar books in their holy texts. Wait a minute... Yeah, so I don't support either side. I think they're both being incredible petty and (dare I say) stupid. However, I don't see a simple solution. There won't be peace until there are two independant countries named Palestine and Israel, and both contain the city of Jerusalem (but not sharing the same city). And why? Because (and I'm using a generalization, here) both sides are blind. [/B][/QUOTE] Lol I was about to say... hehe yeah religious people tend to overlookt he fact that the three major monothiestic religions are almost one in the same being related so close. they all came from one man, Abraham. Who had two sons (who's names I have forgoten although I know they I should know them lol). One side eventually led to Jesus Christ, the other to Muhhammed. I wish I had a huge hand that said "GOD" or in this case "Yahwey/Allah" in big letters on it so I could just SLAP THE HELL out of both those countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mnemolth Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Delian [/i] [B]I'm in full support with Palestine, although I do not support suicide bombings. Palestine had always been Palestine since the dawn of time. It consisted many different ethnic groups living together peacefully. It was only about 3000 years ago Palestinians allowed the Jews to live peacefully in a small part of Palestine. However, as soon a the Jews felt that they were strong enough to initiate troubles, that's when problems arose. Isreal had never really existed except in the belief and in the mind of the Jew. At the time of the Roman Empire, Palestine still existed however under Roman control. It was only after WWI when the British occupiers of Palestine had started to help the Jews gaining momentum and providing them with weapons and support. After world warII the Britain with the support of the other victorious nations in that war, voted in favour of a Jewish state on a part of fertile crescent(of which Palestine is only a part)land. Since then, the American tax- payers were supporting Israel through billions of dollars paid to the created state of Israel each year. This helped the Jews to commit more attrocities against the people of Palestine and the the region. Today more than 10 Palestinians are massacred each day under the sight of the so called civilised nations. The great American heroist Rachel Corrie knew about these attrocities and tried to do something about them when the Israeli bulldozer ran over her. She was recently in the news so i'm sure some of you know about her. [COLOR=firebrick]PLEASE NOTE[/COLOR] All this information is expressed objectively and with the knowledge of this part of history. For whoever who doesn't believe any of the above should consider learning more about the history of Palestine and Syria and also a book called "The International Jew" - The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, written by Henry Ford, the founder of the Ford Motor Company [/B][/QUOTE] *glances at Delian* You worry me...:D Henry Ford, and that book in particular, are both famous for being fiercely anti-semitic. He received a Nazi award in 1938. His ancestors, to their credit, have tried as much as possible, to distance themselves from his concentrated hate against the Jews. If you look, you'll find half a dozen books on Ford and his obssession with the Jews. He is not a figure I would say is 'objective', and it would be dangerous to think he is, in any way, a 'historian'. The view he brings is skewed and colored by his own prejudices that arose from his experiences as a child. That very book has long been the mainstay of the anti-Semitic movement for decades. Its an interesting book in how selective facts are used and manipulated to come to a conclusion that is completely outside the realms of reality. Having said all that, I'm on the side of the Palestinians. Israel has only really come into existence because of British and American influence after WW2. They took land from the Palestinians and gave it t the Jews. Of course people are gonna get pissed. There are many people who are concerned about anti-semitic activity, and that is perfetly understandable. But what is less understandable to me is the lack of reasonable people worried about Zionism. Beyond the extreme anti-semites there are few who see Israel as I do, a tragedy wrapped in irony. People talk about terrorists and suicide bombers as if they were some evil monsters and not human beings. I do not condone what they do, yet I at least understand it. Close your eyes and imagine your land occupied by foreign troops. Its easy. Imagine the Chinese or the Russians are walking down Broadway New York with guns at the ready and tanks and other armored personnel vehicles parked all about the place. Imagine they have full control over you. The moment you take a step outside your house, they are in your face, demanding your ID, searching your body and car, etc. Sometimes you can't go to work because they don't allow you to. Sometimes you want to go to pray but you can't because they have enforced a curfew. Its a worse hell than any of you can possibly imagine. And they kill. They kill men, women and children. If the leader of a terrorist group is travelling in a car with his wife and children, it doesn't matter to them, they'll fire a missile from a helicopter and kill everyone. And you, you sit in your house, nervous and afraid, and frustrated beyond belief. You throw rocks at their tanks and they fire back with real bullets. Its David and Goliath, only this time David doesn't even have a sling. You try to protest to the world, and the world hears your complaints and condemns the actions, but does nothing to stop it. Anyone who cannot see the suffering of the Palestinian people have no heart. Whatever is said about Arafat or the PLO, or HAMAS, or Islamic Jihad, the fact is Israel is a foreign power occupying Palestinian terrorities. It is not a situation that can be tolerated. So how can you fight back? How can you focus your anger and let them know just how much pain they have caused you? You strap a bomb to your body and hope you can kill as many of the enemy as you can. Its not a solution, but giving in to hate sure feels good. Its a vicious cycle without end. You would have thought after WW2, Jews would understand something about persecution. But then again, as someone once said, God is the ultimate prankster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Well for me its a pretty simple thing... As long as Palestinians are willing to kill innocents with the intention of destroying innocent people I can not support their pleas. If this behaviour was to cease completly and totally, I would support the diplomatic resolution of these two peoples by means of their own terms with no outside intervention. American people should not be involved in this dispute because we will never be able to fully understand the true nature of the problem. Half of the problem in based on legitimate reasons and half is based on arab persecution of the jews. The fact is... In 1948 arabs waged war on Isreal after the jews gained independance, and then again waged war on Isreal in 1974. Both times Isreal defeated the Arab coalitions who took an offensive stance in unsuccessful campaigns. With defeat and demoralization (defeat by one nation in a war against 6 arab nations is pretty embarrassing) it is hard for Americans to understand the underlying hate that exist for the jewish nation of Isreal. One solution that could be availible right now is the allowance of refugee imigration into egypt and jordan. However, those nations will not allow that because their goal is to obtain the land in isreal and not actually further the prosperity of their "oppressed" brothers. This situation in isreal is far too complex for me or anyone else to fix, yet it is not that hard for us to offer solutions that COULD work. The thing is, for a solution to work, BOTH parties must unconditionally accept the terms of the agrement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gokents [/i] [B]Well for me its a pretty simple thing... As long as Palestinians are willing to kill innocents with the intention of destroying innocent people I can not support their pleas. [/B][/QUOTE] The Iraelites also have killed many innocent Palestinians inside Irael. I have seen and heard dozens of reports of Iraeles killing children and adults who were either from Palestine seeking refuge or of Arab decent, whereever they were from. It's not just the Palestinians killing the innocent people,a lthough I'm sure they've killed many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 I didnt say that israel hadn't killed innocents... however I did say specifically that the palestinians purposfully directed attacks at innocents. For the most part... (notice that I acknowledge the possible individual israeli killings innocents on purpose) the israeli government directs attacks at leaders of militant groups and terrorist. You can not deny that. Israel conducts itself as a nation with specific goals for its hostilities... those are to eleminate threats from terrorist or miltants... Palestinian extremist direct attacks specifically at civialians. One group is targeting legitimate targets with a possible "colateral death" and the other group is directly targeting civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Change Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Every time Israle suffers a suidice bombing it is a population equivelent to 9/11. They have the right to defend themselves against the Palestinians, who have tried to carve out nation in Leabenon, Jordan, and Syria. However, the Plaestinians "do" need a county to call their own, and they will continute to fight to what they want. I really don't care about the Holy Land, sometimes I think we would all be better off ig Jerusalem, Mecha, Medina, and Bethleham were taken over and adminestered by by the U.N. This way all world govenrments would have claim on the dumb piece of realistate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manslayer Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 im an arab-american therefore im on palestines side 150 percent.gokents sorry but this is very stupid of u.never side with blood thirsty punks like the jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conpiracymonki Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [b][size=1] Woah woah, calm down Manslayer. I'm a British Muslim, and am on the Palestinians' side too 100%. I cannot in any way say that the suicide bombers are doing the right thing, but I can honestly say that if I (or anybody else here) was in their position, I would strap a bomb around myself and walk right into anywhere decked with people, in a final attempt to take out as many of the 'them' as possible. [quote]Mnem[/b] Close your eyes and imagine your land occupied by foreign troops. Its easy. Imagine the Chinese or the Russians are walking down Broadway New York with guns at the ready and tanks and other armored personnel vehicles parked all about the place. Imagine they have full control over you. The moment you take a step outside your house, they are in your face, demanding your ID, searching your body and car, etc. Sometimes you can't go to work because they don't allow you to. Sometimes you want to go to pray but you can't because they have enforced a curfew. Its a worse hell than any of you can possibly imagine. And they kill. They kill men, women and children. If the leader of a terrorist group is travelling in a car with his wife and children, it doesn't matter to them, they'll fire a missile from a helicopter and kill everyone. And you, you sit in your house, nervous and afraid, and frustrated beyond belief. You throw rocks at their tanks and they fire back with real bullets. Its David and Goliath, only this time David doesn't even have a sling. You try to protest to the world, and the world hears your complaints and condemns the actions, but does nothing to stop it. Anyone who cannot see the suffering of the Palestinian people have no heart. Whatever is said about Arafat or the PLO, or HAMAS, or Islamic Jihad, the fact is Israel is a foreign power occupying Palestinian terrorities. It is not a situation that can be tolerated. So how can you fight back? How can you focus your anger and let them know just how much pain they have caused you? You strap a bomb to your body and hope you can kill as many of the enemy as you can. Its not a solution, but giving in to hate sure feels good. Its a vicious cycle without end.[/quote][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transtic Nerve Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Manslayer [/i] [B]im an arab-american therefore im on palestines side 150 percent.gokents sorry but this is very stupid of u.never side with blood thirsty punks like the jews. [/B][/QUOTE] Never EVER post anything like that again. EVER! That was completely racist, untrue, rude, completely ignorant, and completely uncalled for. It just shows how pathetic YOU are and how much of a bad example you are to your race and your religion. SHAME on you. It's thought like that that start senseless and meaningless wars and battles. This is your FINAL warning. If you followed your religion you should know things like that are completely against what you even stand for. Pathetic is the only word that comes to mind when I read what you said. Absolutely pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i] [B]Never EVER post anything like that again. EVER! That was completely racist, untrue, rude, completely ignorant, and completely uncalled for. It just shows how pathetic YOU are and how much of a bad example you are to your race and your religion. SHAME on you. It's thought like that that start senseless and meaningless wars and battles. This is your FINAL warning. If you followed your religion you should know things like that are completely against what you even stand for. Pathetic is the only word that comes to mind when I read what you said. Absolutely pathetic. [/B][/QUOTE] Sounds to me like tn summed it up perfectly. Im not sorry to say, but if anyone has hate in their heart, its not the "jews," its people like the fella that tn was responding to who have hate in their hearts. This stuff is a perfect example of why there will never be peace... I think the words of the person tn responded to and the man I am responding to now, are all that need to be said for anyone and everyone to side with the Israelis and not the terrorist. The post tn responded to is an example of hate... nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Webb Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 My information on the Israel/Palestine issue is a little rusty, but I'd appreciate any help/corrections anyone has. This is what I've heard. I don't expect it to be entirely (or mostly) right, but I figure hearing the facts from different sides here at OB might help... -Lifetimes ago, the Jews left the Holy Land for other lands. -The Palestinians lived in the Holy Land for [i]years[/i], but didn't own it. -Different nations around the world ban together to form several world-wide government systems (UN, NATO, ect.) -Hitler & Co. drive surviving Jews out of Europe. -Whoever else lived around the Holy Land with the Palestinians had left, leaving the Palestinians to finally start their own government. -The Jews move back into the Holy Land and also establish their own government. -The UN acknowledges the Jewish nation of Israel, rather than Palestine. -Israelis and Paltestinians both ruthlessly fight it out for years on end. -Both sides seem to forget that the main reason they both regard the same land as "holy" is because they all worship the same god by 2 different names. Didn't I already say this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mnemolth Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B]My information on the Israel/Palestine issue is a little rusty, but I'd appreciate any help/corrections anyone has. This is what I've heard. I don't expect it to be entirely (or mostly) right, but I figure hearing the facts from different sides here at OB might help... -Lifetimes ago, the Jews left the Holy Land for other lands.[/b] Try a couple of thousand years. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B] -The Palestinians lived in the Holy Land for [i]years[/i], but didn't own it.[/b] Huh?? I have no idea what you're on about. That's just plain silly. Of course they owned their land. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B] -Different nations around the world ban together to form several world-wide government systems (UN, NATO, ect.)[/b] The establishment of Israel has really been due the power of, initially Britain, and later, the US. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B] -Hitler & Co. drive surviving Jews out of Europe.[/b] The Holocaust drastically increased the rate of Jewish migration to Palestine, and it also gave greater impetus to the establishment of a Jewish state. Initially, the plan was to partition the area to allow for two independent states, Israel and Palestine. That was dropped and when Britain withdrew in 1948, Israel declared full independence, and there has been a huge mess ever since.[/b] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B] -Whoever else lived around the Holy Land with the Palestinians had left, leaving the Palestinians to finally start their own government.[/b] Huh?? Again you're confusing me. Palestine has been under Muslim rule for over a thousand years, and a few hundred under the Ottoman Empire. When that crumbled the British came in. That was only a little over a hundred or so years ago.[/b] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B] -The Jews move back into the Holy Land and also establish their own government.[/b] See above. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i][B] -The UN acknowledges the Jewish nation of Israel, rather than Palestine.[/b] No one took into account the views of the Palestinians or the Arabs in general. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B] -Israelis and Paltestinians both ruthlessly fight it out for years on end.[/b] Israel is backed to the hilt by the US. Its not really a fair fight. *shrugs* [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B] -Both sides seem to forget that the main reason they both regard the same land as "holy" is because they all worship the same god by 2 different names. Didn't I already say this? [/B][/QUOTE] All the major monolithic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam share the same God and the same history. Judaism is the oldest, and dismisses Jesus as the Saviour, just as Christianity dismisses Muhammad who is considered the Last Prophet by Islam. The Qu'ran, the holy book of Islam, lists some 25 prophets (the list is not exhaustive), and if you read it you'll find names you'll be familiar with, from Adam to Moses to Jesus. They might be fighting each other and killing each other but they all share the same God and the same history. The irony would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. [EDIT]I'd be [i]very very VERY[/i] cautious to look anything up regarding the history of Israel and Palestine online. This is not an issue many people can be objective about. People seem to either be in one camp or another.[/EDIT] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan L Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i] [B]-Both sides seem to forget that the main reason they both regard the same land as "holy" is because they all worship the same god by 2 different names. Didn't I already say this? [/B][/QUOTE] Not really.. Despite the fact that a large amount of the Qu'ran is almost identical to the Old Testament, or the Jewish Torah, the two aren't actually the same. At the time that Muhammed started the Islamic religion, it was kind of an alternate to Judaism, which he claimed to be the "correct version" or something. Bleh.. my memory is very hazy at that point. The point is, from what I hear, a great deal of the Qu'ran is based on the Torah, but the Jews around at the time that it was written rejected it as being a load of rubbish (for lack of better description). I'd go further, but I'm not into pissing people off.. The point is, despite the many similarities, they aren't technically the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Webb Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Mnemolth: Thanks, I knew I had to have [i]something[/i] wrong, but I just couldn't remember what it was. Deus: I meant that they believe in the same god, not the same religion. The books might be different, but it's all about the same god. For lack of a better analogy, Islam and Judaism are about as different as Backstreet Boys and NSync; both boybands were formed by the same person, their songs say the same things with different lyrics, and their fans don't like one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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