Israel and Palestine

[TheShinje]

[size=1][color=blue] It goes right back to two brothers in the old Testament, Isaac and Ishmael.

The descendants of Ishmael have grown to become the people of Islam, while the people in Israel and Judaism are descendants of Isaac. It's like a family feud that has lasted for generations.

Both have thier own takes on the Bible/Q'uran, since they were originally in the same land. But the Judeo/christians believe Jesus is the son of God, crucified for our sins, but the Islamic faith calls Jesus "Isa" and he didn't die for us, he just transfigurated to heaven. That's my undertanding of the differences, correct me if I'm wrong" [/size][/color]

[Orien_Xel]

[color=blue]Well, I support Palestine. I do not support Suicide bombers. The Palestinians were illeagly driven form their homes in 1948, and the Israeli army is now illeagly occupying Plaestinian teritorry. several million dollars go to Isreal from the U.S. each year. Most of that is used to buy surplus military weapons from us. God, I hate war....[/color]

[Kent]

The bottom line in this situation is that since the begining of time, these two semetic groups have occupied the same land.

It takes two parties that want peace to actually have peace.

There are not two parties in this situation.

Both parties are split... and each side has groups who want peace and groups who want revenge.

Unfortunatly, there will not be peace in that area until the people of the world acknowledge several facts... most of them are based around the fact that there are several outside instigators.

With people from the outside putting in effort to continue hostilities not based on justice, but based on pure racist hate, there will never be peace.

I believe that getting rid of outside influence would be the first place to start.

Then addressing the fact that both parties have a legtimate right to the land.

Then maybe addressing the fact that the west bank and the gaza strip are both entities that were not independant areas at any time before the wars against israel and specifically the Jews.

Unfortunatly on the gaza strip and west bank issue, the "arabs" took the risk of all out war.

When you wage all out war, (six on one) you risk lossing more than just the lives of your people.

You also risk any assests you may have that would pose a possible threat in the future... none the less, any staging points that were used and captured during the intial war.

I personally feel that as americans, most of us are so far removed from this situation that we will never really be able to put ourselves into a position to see both sides of the issue without the true essence of the deeper issues.

With that in mind... I dont think Im gonna be coming back to this thread, but unfortunatly for everyone here, "I will return" for more on the politics of the world.

see ya in the next one...

[Vegitto4]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]Well if they all can't have it then nobody needs to have it. After all it's just causing more bad thigns to happen. Seems rather ridiculous... fighting over some little hill, no matter what meaning it has. I guess peopel are too blinded by faith to see what truely is. [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe that faith is the only thing keeping them going from day to day. If you are apart of that Sect of religion, then Faith is what you live by. By Faith an the words of God( or Allah). That little hill is said to have great history on it. Muhammed ascended from there, and That was the same hill that jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount on I believe. But the jews wouldn't be fighting for something that Jesus did...more for Solomon's temple...

[Manic Webb]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vegitto4 [/i]
[B]Maybe that faith is the only thing keeping them going from day to day. If you are apart of that Sect of religion, then Faith is what you live by. By Faith an the words of God( or Allah). That little hill is said to have great history on it. Muhammed ascended from there, and That was the same hill that jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount on I believe. But the jews wouldn't be fighting for something that Jesus did...more for Solomon's temple... [/B][/QUOTE]
I think there's a difference between [i]having[/i] faith and being [i]blinded[/i] by faith. Yes, that "little hill" has a lot of history attached to it, but it's not worth fighting for, at least not to the extremes either side has taken it to. That's just my opinion.

[Guest cloricus]

[color=teal]My view, they are childish. And that is an insult to children.

In this case I don't care if Gokents follows American lines and supports Israel and that Manslayer hates Israel. I think both countries should basically either have an all out war, which isn't going to happen because Palestine would be smashed or both countries should just "make up". I can see Gokents/TN/James all chopping at the bit to say how that wont work, and I know it won?t. But it gives me the sh*ts to see [i][b]every[/b][/i] night on the news "[i]today Palestine attacked Israel for Israel?s attack yesterday[/i]" next day "[i]Israel has attacked back in retribution to yesterdays attack by Palestine[/i]." I can remember this sort of stuff being said ever since I was young and started to watch the news. [b]I AM SICK OF IT ALL[/b]. Night after night of the same childish crap,
I'm starting to think that the news stations are starting these wars with Afghanistan and Iraq to get something new on the news because they are losing ratings from people who are so sick of watching these two nations ***** on all the time.
[i]I'm not where near it and I'm sick of it[/i].

And these last few pages show why this war won?t end soon. No one can decide who is right in the conflict. You have Gokents over here going on about the "innocents, oh please think of the innocents!" and others going on "Oh the suicide bombers are bad, bad Palestine is right!". [i]GET OVER IT[/i]. In a war these things happen, flick on to your news station to see it happening live in Iraq for proof.

All this conflict proves is that these two religions cant get on, they haven't in the past and they can't now. An easy solution would be to either merge both countries and launch massive campaigns to break down the racism over there, most normal people over there feel detached from it anyway. Or have open boarders where people can freely travel to where ever they want.

None of these solutions will work, which is a shame, such easy solutions to fix what basically is, two countries that can't share.
Religion sucks some times ey?

So in summing up I don't take either side and I wish the worst on both of them, but since they are dishing it up to each other I don't need to bother.

Eps ? Hmm?[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i]
[B]Deus: I meant that they believe in the same god, not the same religion. The books might be different, but it's all about the same god. For lack of a better analogy, Islam and Judaism are about as different as Backstreet Boys and NSync; both boybands were formed by the same person, their songs say the same things with different lyrics, and their fans don't like one another. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with you in the fact that essentially they are the same thing, and apparently 90% of the Koran is actually the same as the Jewish scriptures.. and after posting that I actually looked around and read somewhere that Muslims claim to worship the same God as the Jews.. so yeah, I was wrong on that part. What I meant apart from that is that the Qu'ran was kind of a different version of the Torah, as opposed to them both being written at the same time.. I mean, it'd be different if they were both around at the same time, but Islam came about at around 500 AD, as opposed to Judaism which was around for a few thousand years before that, I think.

bleh.. I know what I mean I'm just not sure how to say it..

[quote][b]http://www.origin-of-islam.com/


Origin of Islam: The Youngest of Major World Religions[/b]
The origin of Islam can be traced to Muhammad in about 622 A.D. This relatively young religion claims to be the restoration of true monotheism started with Abraham, and thus, supersedes both Judaism and Christianity, which were allegedly corrupt and incomplete. Islam is based on absolute submission to the one "true" god, Allah . Muslims are called to conform to the "five pillars" (disciplines) of Islam in order to achieve eternal salvation.

[b]Origin of Islam: Some Background[/b]
The origin of Islam is credited to Muhammad, who lived between 570 and 632 A.D. He is believed by Muslims to be the last and greatest prophet of God ("the seal of the prophets"). It was through him that the Qur'an was dictated. Muhammad was born in Mecca, but he was chased from that city in about 622 A.D., after speaking out against the polytheism and paganism of the culture. He then established himself as a religious and military leader in Medina, and later returned in triumph to Mecca in about 630 A.D. From Mecca, Muhammad was instrumental in establishing Islam as the formal religion of all Arabia.

For the Muslim, the Qur'an is the holy book of Islam and the true word of Allah. Muhammad claimed that the Qur'an comprised the preexistent and perfect words of Allah, dictated in Arabic by the angel Gabriel. Islam teaches that the Qur'an contains the complete and uncompromised revelation and will of Allah. The Qur'an is slightly shorter than the New Testament of the Bible and is divided into 114 "surahs" (chapters). Each surah represents an episodic vision received by Muhammad in the desert, which many Muslim historians have depicted as seizure-like events over many years. While Islam respects certain versions of the Jewish Torah (first five books of the Old Testament), the psalms of David, and the four gospels of the New Testament, the Qur'an is held alone as the religion's true authority. Islam teaches that the Qur'an is only truly understood in Arabic, and therefore, it has become a religious obligation to read and quote it in the original language. According to Islam, Allah cannot be known in a personal sense, but his will is perfectly revealed in the original Qur'an. [/quote]

[quote]http://www.silcom.com/~origin/sbcr/judaism.htm


Though often spoken of as a "Western" religion and linked with Christianity (as in "Judeo-Christian tradition"), Judaism has its origins in the Middle East.

Judaism is a spirituality which indeed gave birth to Christianity, and later played a role during the emergence of Islam. But Judaism as we know it began almost 4,000 years ago among a pastoral/nomadic and later agricultural people, the ancient Hebrews.[/quote]

(If anyone more knowledgeable wants to correct any of that feel free to do so)

[Vegitto4]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Endymion [/i]
[B]I think there's a difference between [i]having[/i] faith and being [i]blinded[/i] by faith. Yes, that "little hill" has a lot of history attached to it, but it's not worth fighting for, at least not to the extremes either side has taken it to. That's just my opinion. [/B][/QUOTE]

You have a point there, with the having faith ad blinded by it;consequently, it's because of that faith they they fight. Yes, they shouldn't fight to this eextreme, but if you thought somethign was sacred, and somebody else was tryign to steal it, or build on it, or use it, what would you do?

[conpiracymonki]

[b][size=1]
Islam emerged as the continuation of an ongoing message. It confirms Christianity and Judaism, but also very stubbornly clarifies what it sees as errors in the books and teachings of both the older religions.

The Qur-aan has very detailed accounts of the Prophets, with differences that it emphasizes upon greatly. These include:
-That Ishmael was the one that was to be sacrificed by Abraham, and not Isaac (But it also explains that both brothers are equal, and none was superior to the other)
-That Jesus was not crucified and killed on the cross, but raised into Heaven to await his Second Coming
-That Jesus is neither God, nor the Son of God, but one of most revered Prophets of God
-That salvation is not dependant on the belief that Jesus is Son of God, or his resurrection
-That all humans are born pure, and that Original Sin does not exist

The Qur-aan was revealed over a span of 23 years, with varying gaps between each revelation. Some came in the form of paragraphs, while others came two or three lines at a time. The Qur-aan was not revealed in order, but in a way so that revelations came that linked into whatever the people needed guidance on. With every revelation came information on where in the complete form, and in which chapter each part it would piece into. And most of the revelations were either in Makkah or Madinah, so they weren't really revealed in the desert.[/b]

Everything else, I think Deus covered pretty well.
[color=white]There was some slight bias I noticed in the website, but there's not point bickering.[/color][/size]

[Manslayer]

:eek: are u a muslim!!!man now christian i now nows that much.im muslim and what he says is a hundred percent tru.

[Vegitto4]

100% true about the muslim religion you mean. I have seen how they all tie in together. I knew a slight bit of what he posted, but not much. Personally, since i'm a christian, I dont agree with it, however, I have always heard of Islam being a religion of peace;however, it's hard to see that nowadays. What with all the extremests and what not.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Manslayer [/i]
[B]:eek: are u a muslim!!!man now christian i now nows that much.im muslim and what he says is a hundred percent tru. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's in that little book called the Quraan. You know, the basis of the islamic religion. I don't remember seeing "hate the jews" in that book, do you?

He said he was a muslim several times. Plus he seems to have a keen set of the religion itself.

[Kent]

Two points I often make in this situation are...

1. Every sect of religion has a slightly different text.

With that in mind, it would be easy for us all to find a violent "anti-infadel" version of the quraan, just as well as a peace loving version.

2. Extremist...

The very term extremist does nothing to implie the numbers of people who hold those views.

It merely implies where the views of those people are in comparison to the medium, not the average, but the medium.

With one of the largest muslim countries in the world (saudi arabia) supporting wahabism as a state sponsored religion, there is no way we can all act like there is not an enourmous population of extremist.

Although, it should be noted Im still not saying all muslims are hate filled or anything so stupid.

Im just acknowledging the truth about the large population of radical, anti western, militant, islamic nationalist.

[Guest cloricus]

I?m sorry TN but I believe that you are wrong. In many cases the Quran makes threats to Jews (christians) and in some cases advises Muslims to kill them.

Quote | [url]www.apologeticsforchristians.homestead.com[/url] -
Muslims believe there is only one true God and His name is Allah. (in Arabic) Muslims teach that God is one in person rejecting the tri-unity of God being three distinct persons as Christians believe: "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them." (Quran 5:73)
-

That is only one example.

The Christian bible also makes remarks about this, and at one point tells Jews to go out and kill Muslims. Though I was unable to find this quote. I?ll keep looking.

Eps ? Hmm facts?

[Manslayer]

what you are saying is partially tru.its says that against jews not to kill but to not befriend them. christians on the other hand. we can befriend them no doubt about it.:)

[Transtic Nerve]

lol... this is pathetic... I'm sorry. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are supposed to be peaceful religions. The TRUE religion says nothing about killing one another. Muhammed was even nice, loving, and caring to the Jews. Isn't Islam founded by Muhammed, who loved the Jews? So it doesn't make sense that the quraan would say not to be-friend them. Judaism is basically the older half of Christianity. The part without Christ obviously. It's the Old Testament, now I may not know much about this thing called the Torah, but doesn't Moses come down with the 10 commandments in the Old testament? Is not one of those commandments "Thou shall not kill?"

It's pathetic... you people follow religions that say love one another in one part, then hate the dude with the rival religion in the next.

If Muslims aren't supposed to kill the Jews, why are they?
If Jews aren't supposed to kill people then why are they?
If Christians are supposed to love every person and not judge them, then why do they?

That obviously doesn't apply to EVERY single person of the religion, but come on. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's more and more reason to support these books are not the word of God, Allah, or Yaweh, but that of man, who in turn has prejudice and hate.

As far as I see it, if there's more than one version of the bible, the quraan, and the Torah, then it's pretty obvious there's something just a little corrupt inside mankind and it's religion.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]The Christian bible also makes remarks about this, and at one point tells Jews to go out and kill Muslims. Though I was unable to find this quote. I?ll keep looking.

Eps ? Hmm facts? [/B][/QUOTE]

The boks of the Christian Bible were decided on sometime around 90 AD, with a few additions known as "deuterocanonical" at around the fourth century AD. Islam started around 600 AD. So I highly doubt that there's a passage that tells us to kill Muslims, purely because they weren't around at the time (or rather the faith wasn't practiced.. I think Muslims believe that Islam has been around since creation or something, but not practiced until wmohammed started it.. or something like that)

gokents said:

"[b]With that in mind, it would be easy for us all to find a violent "anti-infadel" version of the quraan, just as well as a peace loving version.[/b]"

You don't even need to have varying texts, I mean.. there are a fair amount of passages in the Bible (mostly in the Psalms) about God crushing the Jew's enemies and such.. I just choose to not pay any more attention to them as I would "love your enemy", but there are those who do.. ultimately if you look to religious texts to find justification for your own agenda, it can be quite easy to find. The problem is that those people don't look at all the other stuff that says their actions are wrong.

[TheShinje]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]lol... this is pathetic... I'm sorry. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are supposed to be peaceful religions. The TRUE religion says nothing about killing one another. Muhammed was even nice, loving, and caring to the Jews. Isn't Islam founded by Muhammed, who loved the Jews? So it doesn't make sense that the quraan would say not to be-friend them. Judaism is basically the older half of Christianity. The part without Christ obviously. It's the Old Testament, now I may not know much about this thing called the Torah, but doesn't Moses come down with the 10 commandments in the Old testament? Is not one of those commandments "Thou shall not kill?" [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=darkblue] I agree with Transtic Nerve. I'm a Peace Loving Christian, It pains me to see "killing int he name of God" or "God told me to wipe out the infadels" because that is simply not true and a doctrine of demons. [/size][/color]

[QUOTE] [i] Transtic Nerve again [/i]
[B]It's pathetic... you people follow religions that say love one another in one part, then hate the dude with the rival religion in the next.

If Muslims aren't supposed to kill the Jews, why are they?
If Jews aren't supposed to kill people then why are they?
If Christians are supposed to love every person and not judge them, then why do they? [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=darkblue] That is beacuse Transtic, they are what the bible tems as Hypocrites. they worship with thteir tounge and not their mouth. they love to believe they are christian, or Muslim, but they only do it to satisfy their bloodlust and so they prevert the word of God, Allah or Jehovah, to suit their own evil purposes,

they tend to omit or delete the forgiveness and love of their gracious Gods. [/size][/color]

[QUOTE] [i] Originally posted by Transtic nerve[/i]
That obviously doesn't apply to EVERY single person of the religion, but come on. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's more and more reason to support these books are not the word of God, Allah, or Yaweh, but that of man, who in turn has prejudice and hate.

As far as I see it, if there's more than one version of the bible, the quraan, and the Torah, then it's pretty obvious there's something just a little corrupt inside mankind and it's religion. [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=darkblue]This is a little tricky, so bear with me.

It does apply to every single Christian or Muslim, I'm sure that both books make that clear.

I don't believe it is more of a reason to disprove the Bible or Qu'ran, it is more of a belief to me that the works of the Devil to pervet the words of God are evident. Such people who leave out a part of the Word of God, or add to it, will be turned away, for they in turn turned away many, as evident by their vicious works, all they do is turn people away, they do not save anyone by killing them, so I agree, it is pathetic to kill in the name of a loving God, God or Allah. Or any other God for that matter.

I hope transtic, that you can see now these works are form the very few who may be corrupted by Satan, who is the father of lies, into turning people away from God.

All this does is strengthen my faith that the end is near, due to prophecy fulfilment. [/size] [/color]

[Manslayer]

that which you say is true,he was kind.but it says that the ones who you find evil in their heart do not befriend. sorry if i didn't make that clear.:babble:

[Vegitto4]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]

If Muslims aren't supposed to kill the Jews, why are they?
If Jews aren't supposed to kill people then why are they?
If Christians are supposed to love every person and not judge them, then why do they?



[/B][/QUOTE]

Because we are all human, therefore, we make mistakes. If we never made mistakes, then we would all be God, and there wouldn't be a religion at all.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vegitto4 [/i]
[B]Because we are all human, therefore, we make mistakes. If we never made mistakes, then we would all be God, and there wouldn't be a religion at all. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well then whats the friggin point of putting that in the bible or any religious book for that matter? It serves no point to put in rules that no one is expected to follow.

i'm confused, what is so evil about the Jews that isn't evil about Muslims or Christians or any other religion for that matter? What the have in evil equals to just as much as you have in evil. It's just you don't see it cause you choose not to.

[Vegitto4]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]Well then whats the friggin point of putting that in the bible or any religious book for that matter? It serves no point to put in rules that no one is expected to follow.

. [/B][/QUOTE]

No, we are expected to follow, but slip ups are expected as well. it's more along the lines of a set of guidelines, or morals that you should live your life by(duh, you prob knew that). God understands that, because we are not perfect, we will make mistakes. Thus, the forgiveness thing. It may be impossible to do it, but we ar to strive towards it. It's all apart of His twisted logic and sense of humor. Some of it is just not meant to be understood.

[Guest cloricus]

Politics and Religion don't mix, simple.

Eps - Setting out your reality.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]Well then whats the friggin point of putting that in the bible or any religious book for that matter? It serves no point to put in rules that no one is expected to follow.[/B][/QUOTE]

On that mindset, what's the point in society having laws if people go on breaking the rules all the time? Why don't we just [i]let[/i] people commit crimes instead?

The thing is, we are expected to follow them, and we do believe (or rather, I take it that way) that it pains God to see us doing any differently. But at the same time, we can be forgiven for what we do wrong. It doesn't make it any more right, and we still have to face up to what we've done wrong, but ultimately there is forgiveness in there. If someone you cared for did something wrong against you, and was truly sorry, if it was what you consider as a forgivable act, you would forgive them for it, even if they had to make amends for what they did first. (I believe) It's the same with God, with the exceptions that:

1- God sees nothing as "unforgivable"
2- God knows whether you are [i]really[/i] sorry or if you're just putting on a show

So yeah.. I know a lot of people don't follow the rules that the various religions give, and Christianity offers forgiveness for that (I can't speak for other religions cos I'm not in one, so I dunno whether they do or not), but it doesn't make the rules themselves pointless

[Justin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Transtic Nerve [/i]
[B]Well if they all can't have it then nobody needs to have it. After all it's just causing more bad thigns to happen. Seems rather ridiculous... fighting over some little hill, no matter what meaning it has. I guess peopel are too blinded by faith to see what truely is. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's like if someone were to want to take your house from you and you wouldn't give it to them. Now suppose SEVERAL people want it, do you let two or three live in various rooms? I hope not.

The land belongs to Isreal. That's that. I think they've already given Palestine more than what they should've had by giving the the West Bank and Gaza.

-Justin