Gaming The cel-shading debate

[Turkey]

First of all, to those uninformed, this debate is based on what exactly is cel-shading. There are 2 different points, and everyone can (and should) post theirs.
Here's the debate up to now:

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hiachi [/i]
[B]just a little factoid, but zelda doesnt use cel shading except for one enemy that i dont know the name! Cel-shading is when the model has a black outline around it, zelda just uses a light shading tecnique that gives it a water color or cartoony look. [/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Semjaza Azazel[/i]
[B]Cel shading doesn't require a black line around anything, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Watch cartoons, they don't all use lines around characters at all even. Samurai Jack is a good example of that, and it uses traditional cels.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hiachi [/i]
[B]Cel shading is when you put a black outline around an object, dont mess with me buddy, im a game developer, i know the lingo.....

IM not trying to start a flame war, i just wanted to let you know that yes, cel-shading is when you make an object have a black outline, what does samurai jack have to do with this??! Yes it makes it cartoony, but cartoony look doesnt mean its cel-shading, zelda gets its cartoony look from Toon-Shading, where it use realtime lighting like other games whereas it fades from the brightest point on the object to the darkest point, it just has a plain line, everything on one line is darker than ever thing on the other side[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Smoky Joe[/i]
[B]Just because it's different, it doesn't stop being cel-shading. The black outline means squat, since the cel-shading itself is the texture and lightning modification that allows the poligon models to imitate animation.
Mario Sunshine is also made to look cartoony, but is it cel-shaded? No. Oh, and Zelda's lighting is manually done.

Toon Shading= Cel Shading

Of course, if you have any proof agaisn't that, I'll be eager to read it.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hiachi [/i]
[B]Cel shading, is, i repeat, is when the models have a black out line around them, I know that Toon-shading is another word for cel-shading, but thats the only term i could think of for the lighting. Look at Jet Grind Radio, it had NO LIGHTING, no shading, but it was "cel-shaded" as in it had a black outline around it, cel-shading doesnt mean cartoony effects, if it were that ambiguous, we might as well just say the game is "cartoony". I dont know what your talking about modifying the textures, its just textures, they got the lighting worked out so that everything that the light was shining on is the same brightness and everything thats not, the same shade-"ness", So that you get a definite line of shading as you see in many newer cartoons. Ive been (and been one myself) talking to game developers too long to let someone tell me that i dont know what cel-shading is![/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Smoky Joe[/i]
[B]JGR had both shading and lighting; at least my copy does.



quote:
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Originally posted by hiachi
cel-shading doesnt mean cartoony effects, if it were that ambiguous, we might as well just say the game is "cartoony
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In my last post, I explicitly said that same thing:

quote:
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Mario Sunshine is also made to look cartoony, but is it cel-shaded? No.
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quote:
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Originally posted by hiachi
I dont know what your talking about modifying the textures, its just textures,
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Maybe, I used the wrong words, but I'm referring to the extra textures that mess up conventional shading. You know, the light shading you mentioned? That is what I'm referring to.
You see, that is a vital part of cel-shading, and the most important. Without it, there is no cel-shading, just a model with outlines. I mean, we have a cel-shaded game without outlines, but no cel-shaded games without Light Maps.
[/B][/QUOTE]


And here we are.

[Semjaza]

Of course, this it toward you know who lol.

How is this anywhere near a flame war? I said something else, and you're contesting it. I'm not seeing much proof other than you arguing that since you make games, you know all.

Edit: As to why Samurai Jack has to do with this - Samurai Jack is a cartoon. Cartoons use animation cels. This is what cel shading gets its name from. Obviously, not all cartoons have thick black lines around characters. Samurai Jack is an example of that, and Zelda follows suit. That's the point. Cel shading tries to emulate animation cels.

If you read up on anything, the developers have stated that JGR didn't use "real" cel shading. It's more about the techniques used and then how the end result is. JGR made no use of these techniques, and according to the developers DC couldn't even do the technique in the first place (nor can the PS2 if you want believe them... I suppose you know more than the creators? My source is an old Gamefan magazine). "True" Cel Shading requires pixel shaders, unless it is faked in software - which is what JGR did. That basically defeats half of your argument right there. If you are talking about JSRF, then that might be another story... but you didn't name that game.

There are two ways to do cel shading. Software cheats and the other of which is done by pixel shaders. Zelda supposedly makes use of both. No style where a black line is added suddenly makes something cel shaded. It has to do with these techniques and various texture applications. The end result makes something look like an animation cel, and that's how it is basically defined. Not all animation cels require outlines, and not all things with outlines are automatically animation cels... Regardless of the two generally being put together.

Anyway, if you were a game developer that actually knew... Isn't a bit odd that you don't know any of the terminology?

You aren't proving jack with any of this. You are just arguing what specific style you think cel shading has to be and look like, not how it is actually done or anything else. Cel shading is defined by using solid colors to tone and shade things, resulting an animation cel appearance. Zelda has just that.

Also, if you don't think Zelda has real time lighting, I suggest you read some more and play more of it. It's not all prescripted, or prerendered. ED made use of those techniques, but Zelda does not. It's rather obvious upon playing it.

And here is something from someone that knows even more about it:
[quote]Cel shading is basicly using the pixel shader to create dark/bright shades on a polygonal model, affected by lighting, the shades change "accurately" to always create a cartoon look to the polygon model. The norm for cartoons nowadays are 2 or 3 shades, very different in brightness. Its like always skipping a few thousand of shades, from white to black you would get white, white-grey, grey, grey-black, black. Rather than real life shades where from white to black you would get millions of different colors in between.

[b]Oh and i want to make it clear, black outlines is NOT cel shading, its only another effect that is obviously often used with cel shading, if the creators want to make a cartoon look they'll most likely go with both.[/b] Though, thats not the norm (zelda ww). Dark cloud doesnt have cel shading, simple as that. They are polygonal models with normal textures on them. Its the artists that gave them that cartoon look, not technology.[/quote]

You are assuming that outlining and cel shading are one in the same. They simply are not. They are both different techniques, and JGR (DC version) made use of a version of both of them at once. Since it was the first important game to make use of it, many believe they are one in the same and MUST go together. They don't have to.

[James]

[color=#808080]Semjaza is exactly right. Hiachi is incorrect.

Cel-shading is quite a general term -- you can utilize cel-shading for a multitude of visual styles and no, you [i]don't[/i] need a black line around the object to call it "cel-shaded".

I also notice a lot of people saying "toon shaded" and "cel-shaded".

That is nothing but pulling at straws -- both terms refer to the same thing. People kind of invented the term "toon shaded" as a way of communicating Zelda's visual style to a lay audience. These are just two terms that explain the same thing.

The easiest way to describe cel/toon shading is simply to say that it basically consists of only two colours being used on a lit object.

When you see Link's face in TWW, you'll notice that it only has two colours. One for the shadow and one for the lit area. The same is true for Jet Set Radio and just about any other cel-shaded game.

Of course, this isn't the constant rule. There are many many different ways of cel-shading an object, depending on the particular style you want to express. So the term "cel-shading" is kind of like saying "dynamic lighting". Yes, dynamic lighting is a particular technique or principle -- but it can be used in so many different ways. I hope that makes sense.

Hiachi, you're [i]obviously[/i] not a "developer", because your explanation of cel-shading falls hopelessly short of the mark. All you have to do is read [i]any[/i] developer interview about the use of cel-shading.

Also, I'd like to point you to a feature written at N-Sider regarding The Wind Waker (it was published a while ago). The feature talks about cel-shading and explains what it is and how it works.

[url=http://www.n-sider.com/index_content.php?page=features/zeldablowout.htm]N-Sider Article Link[/url]

Considering that Hiachi probably won't read the article, I'll make two interesting quotes here:[/color]

[quote][i]Jason Nuyens, Editor in Chief, N-Sider:[/i][b]

With a new style comes a new challenge of development. The technology that goes into creating simple cell shading is complex, but nobody really knows what is going on for Zelda?s case. It remains to be seen what kind of hardware hit there will be when the trace lines are not on the models, and when dynamic lighting is used to the extent that has been so far. However, if we study what goes on with standard cell shading we might begin to understand the mathematics involved in creating the visuals.

In simple cell shading methods for PC programming, using mainly OpenGL, the theory of cell shading can be analyzed. The first thing you must do is find out a lighting situation. Examine the picture below:



The equation for a single pixel on the screen with lighting is essentially the dot product between a normal vector from the model and the ray from a light source. This is equal to the cosine of the angle between both the normal vector and the ray from the light source. Once you have this, you use it to index a color in a ?texture map?, like in the following figure:



So, using the result from the cosine, we index a specific color from our ?texture map? or range of colors so to speak. Figure B shows a very simplistic palette of cell shading colors. Essentially when you determine the angle that the light is at, you can determine which shade of color to use. For this example we have three shades: bright, normal, and shadowed. By using this color indexing we can achieve the lighted shading that we wanted. Figure C shows what a cross section of a cylinder would look like with a light source.



As you can see, when the angle between the light ray and vector approaches zero, the bright color is indexed. As it calculates along the surface, you move all the way to the shaded area. With the rules of cell shading, if there is a negative value when calculating the cosine, it is set to 0 on our ?color scale?. That is essentially the ?back side?, or complete shaded area of the object. As an example, if the light hits a point on the polygon at 60 degrees, then the cosine of the angle is 0.5 and the corresponding shade will be white (on our Figure B you can match it up).

[/b][/quote]

[color=#808080]I didn't include the pics in there because they're a bit hard to see.

In addition, here's a quote from Nintendo Company Limited itself, regarding the use of cel-shading in The Wind Waker:[/color]

[quote][i]NCL:[/i]

[b]It asks for the pixel located in the edge of a subject using a depth (Z) value, and a border color is alternatively blended to these pixels, and is displayed on them. In order to ask for the edge of a subject, the depth value and the depth value of a circumference pixel of a certain pixel are compared. Based on this distance value, the boundary layer color for which it asks to the color value of this pixel is blended. It is used for this distance value adjusting for example the quantity of the boundary layer color which was used for the operation of the alpha value of a pixel and was blended by the pixel color after that. The frame buffer where an alpha value is usually memorized in the portion of the subject which has a discernment value is made to memorize other examples. This discernment value is used for discriminating a pause of the portion of a subject for giving a boundary layer color.

[/b][/quote]

[Turkey]

Thank you James. You said what I wanted to, but did not have enough knowledge to say.
Now, I want to hear Hiachi's rebuttal. Even if everything points agaisn't him, he still deserves a chance to prove himself.

[hiachi]

All this started was with a simple difference of interpretation, I use, as well as many aspiring game developers, the word cel-shading to mean the black outline around a character, calculated or faked. What i was saying was that i though in the original Viewtiful Joe topic, since you were talking about black outlines, when you said Zelda WW uses cel-shading, you meant the same cel-shading i know it as, which Zelda does not use. All I said was that it uses (maybe saying that it isnt realtime light isnt the word, i meant that it is still calculated in realtime, but it doesnt fade from the darkest point on an object to the lightest point, as in real life and other realtime shaded games, instead it has as you said, inadvertantly proving me right, when you talked about Link's face either being light or dark) the type of shading that involves individually calculateing an objects color schemes, so that it doesnt have a realistic look, more like a water coloring.

Also, even if you dont take this as an ending to the discussion, I really dont care to talk about it anymore. I'll continue to use cel-shading as a term for just black outline, as long as people know what im talking about, I really dont care... infact the word Toon Shading, was oringally used to talk about the calculated cel-shading, not the fake inverted mesh used in lower end game consoles.

Say what you will, but im not the kind of person who really cares what others think, when its somewhat negative, be it right or wrong, if someone wants to insult me, their the kind of person that their opinion matters little to me.

Also this tidbit from GameSpy.com may give you some food for thought about naggin at be about "cel-shading" and "Toon Shading" being the same thing:

[QUOTE]GameSpy.com:
Using "Toon Shading" to render the characters, objects, and environments, the visual style is not so much akin to the popular cel-shaded trend, but rather it's more like a living cartoon. Subtle color palettes and smooth texturing give Link and his world a truly believable fantasy setting. [/QUOTE]
read the rest at [url]http://gamespy.com/reviews/march03/zeldawindwakergcn/index2.shtml[/url]

[Turkey]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hiachi [/i]
[B]Say what you will, but im not the kind of person who really cares what others think, when its somewhat negative, be it right or wrong, if someone wants to insult me, their the kind of person that their opinion matters little to me.[/B][/QUOTE]

If you didn't care, then why did you kept on arguing? I don't know if you meant it that way, but what I got from that comment sounded really immature, especially for someone who aspires to be a Game Designer. Then again, you don't care about anything/

Back on topic- It seems like the debate is over. I'll keep this open, in case someone wants to add a coment or something.

[hiachi]

Im saying if you want to say something that is more bad than good, not necessarily an insult, the fact that youd say it to me makes me not respect you enough to even care what you say. I dont mind criticizing, but critics tend to be negative.

[James]

[color=#808080]Hiachi, you shouldn't get involved in these so-called debates if you're going to get all defensive. Nobody has insulted you; rather, your inaccuracies have been pointed out to you.

What was this debate all about? It was about the [i]definition[/i] of cel-shading as a visual technique. I believe that the definition has been clearly stated (and re-stated).

Now you're changing your argument. You're backing away and saying that you were talking about Zelda having a [i]different kind[/i] of cel-shading. Nuh-uh. Sorry, but you originally said that Zelda [i]isn't cel-shaded[/i]. And it obviously is.

So, yeah. It's not worth getting involved in these discussions if you're going two twist and turn like that. People with knowledge in these areas [i]will[/i] pull you up on your inaccuracies. That doesn't mean that anyone was being rude; I don't think anyone was. However, even when faced with the evidence, you yourself were quite dismissive and continued to debate. So you can't blame everyone else for your own obvious desire to continue discussing the subject.

EDIT: Oh, Hiachi. That last GameSpy quote of yours? You misinterpreted it.

GameSpy didn't mean that The Wind Waker isn't using cel-shading. They are simply saying that TWW isn't following the [i]recent trend[/i] of cel-shading technique. The implication is that Zelda is using another "brand" or "style" of cel-shading. GameSpy aren't implying that Zelda [i]isn't[/i] cel-shaded; they are just pointing out that Zelda's use of the technique is more "toon-like" than something like Jet Set Radio, where the black outline was indeed present.[/color]