Culture, Music, Meaning

[Transtic Nerve]

Now we all know different races, typically, have likes and roots to different types of music, at least here in the states, England, and possibly Australia. But what is the real difference in it.

White people tend to like rock music.
Black people tend to like rap music.
Obviously there are major exceptions. I heard somewhere over half the listening audience of rap music are white people. Perhaps someone could give me exact numbers there.

For the purposes of this exercise, we will use only these two. Asian people tend to fall into all categories. The Japanese alone pump out more genres in music than any other single race. So this topic doesn't much concern any specific type of asian.

Anyway, I've noticed we all argue over different genres. I bring back memories of when I was High School. We have a radio station down here in Orlando that plays dance music and rap intertwining. meaning usually you'd have one dance song followed by a rap song, and repeat so on and so on. Well this girl on the bus would literally complain EVERY time a dance song played YELLING at the bus driver to change the station to 102 JAMZ (which was actually 101.9, but who's really counting) which was a purely dominate station appeasing the listening forms of African Americans and other peoples who prefer the styles of rap and R&B. They always played mainstreak CRAP which absolutely blew, but hey, if it shut that stupid b*tch up, I was happy. I don't think that station is around anymore, so she can shove it anyway.

On to the point. Is there really a difference in society and musical culture. Especially in mainstream life. Pop has the infamous boy band blow out. You know, where BSB and NSYNC make it big and 30,000 other boy bands pop out of the money market in some attempt to have teenage girls masturbate over their shirtless pics. But I've noticed recently that Rap is almost the exact same thing. When rap went mainstream, or I should say hip-hop as it was at the time, with Run DMC and Public Enemy and all the precursers to the movement, not many people jumped on. Hell the Beastie Boys, a white rap group for those of you unfamiliar, were the first ever to break records int he rap genre. But recently, with the fame of Ja Rule, and this new style of mainstream rap (Nelly, whoever else) we see a bajillion new rappers come and go like boy bands come and go. Everytime I flip on MTV when they happen to be playing music videos, doesn't happen much, or I pass by BET when Comic View isn't on, there's almost some new rap star doing the same sh*t everyone else has been doing.

There is no difference in our society trying to be apart by culture. You have the white culture, what little we posses in some ways, and the African-American culture, which tries so hard to stay different, but in the end it all ends up the same.... so why do we have this seperation in culture, in our very own music. I don't mean to throw this back to the Japanese, but they are a perfect example of how one culture of people can produce a variety of greatness. There is no culture difference amung the Japanese people like in America. The country is predominantly Japanese people with very little fluctuation of race. Yet they can still pump out every genre of music. From rap, to pop, to rock, to dance, to salsa, they do it all.

This post is all over the place, I guess I have different things going on in my head as far as what I really mean. The main point is that I don't see a need for cultural speration in music. The continued cultural seperation in music is what drives our own music styles, wants, needs, and likes down the drain. I mean look at Americans. We, as a society EAT up crappy talent. Have you watched TV in the last year? If another reality show about losers trying to get married comes out, I'll shoot myself. Same with music. You get boy bands out the ying yang and rapper out the whatever. All to crappify the music even more, prolonging it's crappiness (I sound like Strong Bad) yet, because of the cultural differences, there's nothing to stop them. White folks eat up the pop, black folks eat up the rap and neither will do anything for the other, so it just stays and stays and then thats were you get morons like Eminem making stupid remarks about it in his OWN music and you get more sex appeal by sluts like Christina Aguwhatever which completely takes away from the whole meaning to begin with. Now you're feeding on appearance/controversy (same thing as far as I'm concerned)... which RUINS music.

I respect people who have a like and want to explore the indie scenes and underground scenes in whatever genre. It helps to try to stop crappy talent, but if we still have that line in culture seperating music, it won't work. At least I believe that.

Did this even make sense. I'm going back over it and I'm thinking it doesn't make much. Oh well, if you get it, good for you. If not, no harm done, you just wasted your time trying to read something that wasn't written very well.

PS: I didn't even bother going into country music. that would have made it even worse to read, but I'm sure you can apply. "Lets make war songs about being patriotic over and over again!"... exactly...

PPS: If this doesn't make sense, I'll delete it after the first few responces, if any.

[James]

[color=#808080]I must say, I find a lot of that difficult to understand (in the overall context).

But I did pick up on the fact that you said you don't see why music should have that cultural separation.

I think there are a lot of reasons why different genres are spawned in different parts of the world. I mean, music isn't just simply a case of what people like to listen to. Music really [i]does[/i] come from culture. It's born from society -- and any music, from any period of history, will reflect that. Either through the actual musical score, the lyrics or the overall feel.

I like Australia in terms of music because I tend to find that musical taste isn't as rigid here as it is in the United States. In Australia, I find that there is a much greater "mainstream" appreciation for music that might be considered unconventional in other places.

Having said that, I think Japan, Europe and Australia all have one thing in common. Basically, I think there is a very strong (perhaps in-built) ability to embrace musical innovation on a mainstream level. I don't see this in America. Of course, America itself produces a [i]lot[/i] of innovative musical groups and artists. And there are many, many underground scenes and "unconventional" areas within the United States, in terms of music and musical genres.

But on a strictly mainstream level, things are very monotone. It doesn't matter whether you're listening to Britney Spears or Christina Aguilera; they sound the same and if they weren't there, someone else would be filling their shoes. It's very monotone and very flat. There is little room for experimentation and variance -- and "individuality" is only accepted if it as seen as logical (in other words, less clothing and more makeup). And more often than not, truly individual music is seen as "weird" or "unconventional".

Anyway, I think that this is a kind of discussion that will go on forever. There will [i]always[/i] be "the masses". And there will always be those who strive as hard as they can to break the mould.

So where does that leave me? Somewhere in between, I think.

Whatever I do, I'm not out there to portray any sort of image. And for that reason, I don't have a very specific image of myself. I don't know if that makes sense. But basically, I don't see myself as a particular kind of person -- because I'm never trying to exemplify a certain train of thinking or way of life. So perhaps that excludes me from the mainstream by default; I don't know.

Generally, I think there is one important rule when it comes to music; [b]have an open mind and allow for variation[/b]. That can be easier said than done.

No matter WHAT your music taste...I think it's important to recognize the artistry in all music (even Christina's music). Sure, SHE might not have a creative bone in her body. But what about the person who wrote her songs? In every case, there's always some kind of creativity going on. And we have to respect that.

At the same time, we all do have personal taste. Music is more personal than literature and art, I think. Music can really reach to the core of a person in a very direct and deliberate way. Sometimes, a particular piece of music might move me to cry...and it might have no effect on someone else, you know? So when people argue over what music is better, it annoys me; no piece of music is [i]really[/i] better than another. It's all 100% subjective. We may debate about the creativity or talent involved, for sure. But at the end, we always have to respect what other people feel about a particular piece of music -- whether the music is seen as creative, unique, individual or not...it doesn't matter. We can't help having an emotional reaction to music, even if it [i]is[/i] something that Britney Spears churns out.[/color]

[Manic Webb]

That part about the girl yelling at the bus driver happened all the time on my bus when I was in high school. What's worse is that two people would be yelling "change it!" and "keep it!" at the bus driver at the same time. It was kinda funny when the driver ignored them and just turned the radio down.

But I digress.

I was raised on rap music. I was born in the mid-80's with an older brother and a mother who listened to rap all the time. I loved rap all through the 80s (what I can remember, anyway), but I got really tired of it in the 90s. In fact, I'm still a little tired of mainstream rap. I'm not enough of a fan to go out of my way for underground rap, either. I see a lot of new mainstream rappers coming out of goodness-knows-where, presenting nothing but a bunch of crap. But I'm not going to let my friends' and family's fandom of hip-hop shape my view of it. If I hear something I like, I'll listen to it. But other than that, I'm not having it.

I think this is how some parents fall out of the loop. My father, for instance, is a blues musician who won't listen to any music made after 1989 because "none of these new singers can sing." I don't listen to rap anymore because none of these new rappers have anything to talk about besides themselves and the money they don't have. (watch the MTV special on rappers' incomes. They make minimum wage by the end of the year).

In terms of rock, that's a genre I fall in and out of constantly. Unlike rap, my mom doesn't listen to rock, so I don't have to listen to it everyday. So, I'll hear one group I like one day, lose touch with the mainstream rock scene, and there's a whole new genre of rock by the time I come back into it. Ten years ago, I'd never heard of "punk" rock, but apparently Nirvana was punk back when I used to watch them on MTV as a kid. Add on the fact that I'm not sure wich bands are [i]which type[/i] of rock, I just can't become a fan of rock music. I just don't get it.

Pop music has always been just "Popular" music. It's just that nobody made a big deal out of how crappy it is/isn't until Britney Spears (who can't sing) and Backstreet Boys (who's songs were very redundant) made it big. At one time, you could call [i]any[/i] genre of music "pop." Nowadays, you'll be tar'ed, feathered, hanged, and burned at the stake in the middle of Town Square if you dare to call a certain rock band or rapper "pop." Now we have to use the word "mainstream."

You know, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, either.

Sometimes people listen to a certain type of music because of the image it gives. That's not exactly a good thing. As someone who tunes his radio into a hip-hop/R&B station, I'm expected to hate boybands with a passion. Well damnit, Justin Timberlake's album was good. One shouldn't let their own image or the image of the band affect what to think of their music. How someone can listen to an African-American hip-hop/R&B boyband named 112, but turn around and say they hate Nsync's "Girlfriend" remix (a song that dripped with so much R&B, they played it on BET's countdown) before even hearing it, is beyond me. The music you listen to should be based on your taste in [i]music[/i], not the culture of the person performing it.

Now, if you'll excuse me, a Snoop Dogg song is about to end and I'm going to put on my Michelle Branch CD.

[Guest dr.septagon]

Music is to listen to! You like, you listen, you dont like, you dont listen. Its not something to have a debate over, like whats the point of discussing pop culture and its effects on us, the differentiation of genres! Thats what I think because I listen to hip hop and I respect its past and history but when I hear ppl saying " we have to save hip hop, from the indusrty and mainstream" it pi**es me off so much!
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? make a protest? Talk to a sellout magazine ('the source') to do a simpathetic article on saving hip-hop culture? A magazine which gives Benzino (a crap 40 year old 'raper' who is a rookie adn has the most commercial lyrics from songs like 'rock the party' and 'bootee') 4 adn half mics (rating) on his album out of 5? Then give 4 mics to Electric Circus by Common, which by the way is one of the best ever hip-hop albums Ive heard in my life! :therock: Coincidently Benzino is a part-owner of 'the source' but has "no access to album reviews and rating" (quoting Benzino). :mad: :flaming:

Sorry, I got a bit carried away hmm. :rolleyes:
:sleep:

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dr.septagon [/i]
[B]Music is to listen to! You like, you listen, you dont like, you dont listen. Its not something to have a debate over, like whats the point of discussing pop culture and its effects on us, the differentiation of genres! Thats what I think because I listen to hip hop and I respect its past and history but when I hear ppl saying " we have to save hip hop, from the indusrty and mainstream" it pi**es me off so much!
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? make a protest? Talk to a sellout magazine ('the source') to do a simpathetic article on saving hip-hop culture? A magazine which gives Benzino (a crap 40 year old 'raper' who is a rookie adn has the most commercial lyrics from songs like 'rock the party' and 'bootee') 4 adn half mics (rating) on his album out of 5? Then give 4 mics to Electric Circus by Common, which by the way is one of the best ever hip-hop albums Ive heard in my life! :therock: Coincidently Benzino is a part-owner of 'the source' but has "no access to album reviews and rating" (quoting Benzino). :mad: :flaming:

Sorry, I got a bit carried away hmm. :rolleyes:
:sleep: [/B][/QUOTE]

You don't seem to get it... If I don't like mainstream songs, then I'm not gonna listen to the radio. So where am I to get to hear my songs? Waste $15.00 on one CD for one song I like? Oh wait, the internet... ahh, but the same Mainstream people whom you refer to are taking that away from me as well. So it does matter what gets played on mainstream radio. I'm tired of hearing crappy music on American radio. It's all 90% crap. And it's this way because of the culutral seperation in music. We, as Americans, would produce much better music if cultural difference in music were abolished. Think about it. If rappers didn't have this tie to their culture, they could make a more variety of music. But no, the mainstream wants certain characteristic which then limits what any music maker can produce. It's mostly sex appeal, which is why Christina Aguliera looks like a dirty slut in every single video she does. She has massive amounts of talent but because she's mainstream she has to look like a slut, which takes away from the appeal of her music. It's not about the music anymore, it's about how slutty she looks. Same with rappers. It's not about what they produce anymore, It's about how hot 50 cent looks withouth his shirt on. It's about how much gold they can wear, how big the rims are on their cars. And thus the music is put on hold while their image is up front. This is because of the mainstream cultural seperation. This isn't just the case in American music, but Japan does the same to some extent. Visual Kei bands tend to be alot more visual in appearance and alot of times that draws the audience to them. But as Dir en grey said, who is probably the most famous of visual kei bands at the moment, "if you like us based on our looks and not our music, you are not fans." Music is about that work, music. So why is everything limited and why is it all seperated by the mainstream.

[Guest dr.septagon]

If someone doesnt like the mainstream then they go underground and even if you dont match the mainstream characteristics or criteria but you are very talented or good you WILL still get publicity and you WILL eventually become famous! Like some underground rappers (just as an example) have begun as underground but their album has been so good its been pulled to the mainstream. for exmaple:
"a hip-hop album comes along that is so powerful that it bursts out of the confines of its own underground perimeter fence and gets pulled towards the mainstream. It happened with Mos Def s debut, it happened with Brand Nubian s In God We Trust and now it s happening with the Cannibal Ox album Cold Vein"- reviewer at Hmv.co.uk

[Break]

[size=1][color=crimson]Hm.. I [i]never[/i] listen to the radio by choice. Why? Because, like everyone is saying, it is 90% crap. Occasionally there will be a good song on when I have no choice but to listen to the radio (when in the car with my family or someone), but that is very rarely.

I find that it is very hard to find a good band or group that [i]isn't[/i] mainstream in this day. As soon as a band that looks like they have potential come along, they release a one or two really good first albums then a big record company will come and turn them into the most mainstream thing since the Spice Girls. I don't get why they do it, it annoys me and a lot of other peope that "their" band is transformed into a money-guzzling superpower of the music industry.

As for different tastes in music.. well, the society I live in would think I am clashing against everything they believe is "normal". For example, on the last day of school last year, we were listening to music in a classroom (all mainstream crap by the way) and I snuck over and put on a CD (I forget what it was, but it was [i]very[/i] alternative). Five seconds after it came on, someone came rushing over with a look of disgust on their face and took the CD straight out and switched it with one they thought [i]everyone[/i] would enjoy.

When it comes down to music, I am very egotistical about it. But, I now I think 'never ever put on alternative music at school' and 'think about the majority wants', because it's always the majority that gets the vote afterall.[/size][/color]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B]
When it comes down to music, I am very egotistical about it. But, I now I think 'never ever put on alternative music at school' and 'think about the majority wants', because it's always the majority that gets the vote afterall.[/B][/QUOTE]

What's interesting about that comment, is that my school is mainly made up of people who like underground music.

As for me, basically all the music I listen to is mainstream.

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dr.septagon [/i]
[B]If someone doesnt like the mainstream then they go underground and even if you dont match the mainstream characteristics or criteria but you are very talented or good you WILL still get publicity and you WILL eventually become famous! Like some underground rappers (just as an example) have begun as underground but their album has been so good its been pulled to the mainstream. for exmaple:
"a hip-hop album comes along that is so powerful that it bursts out of the confines of its own underground perimeter fence and gets pulled towards the mainstream. It happened with Mos Def s debut, it happened with Brand Nubian s In God We Trust and now it s happening with the Cannibal Ox album Cold Vein"- reviewer at Hmv.co.uk [/B][/QUOTE]

Have you ever seen underground bands become mainstream? They almost always change the style of music in order to have their music sell to the audience. I've seen it happen in dozens and dozens of cases. Usually the indie scene is alot less limited than the mainstream scene. Record labels put alot of limitation on their artists in order to get their albums to seel better so that the record companies can gain the 80% profit.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]I think that the creative process is kind of lost when a band goes mainstream. Too much emphasis is placed on time constraints by the record company that the creative process suffers horribly. That is why you have to respect groups like the Roots and Wilco for remaining true to their art form, despite pressure to force them mainstream.[/color]

[Darkness]

After reading this stuff, I'm a little on the fence...

I understand the whole "mainstream" concept, but I have a beef with it. Any group in any genre that becomes successful ends up being pop. Although true in some cases, it's not because the group changes their style, it's because others make their debut copying the the original group's style. A lot of artists are discovered and then kept on the backburner until the time is "right". Either way, it's not the fault of the original artist.

I can't really blame all of this on culture either. America, a.k.a. the salad bowl, is a mixture of countless different cultures. To blame it all groups individually isn't really fair, nor is blaming the whole. If a song becomes "popular" then appearantly a large amount of people like it. It is really the same thing as one person liking their "underground" music, but on an extremely larger scale.

As for people listening to and liking music only for appearance, I really think that is horrible, but I also understand why it happens, to a certain extent. In my country, (U.S.) sex sells. But think about why. Here, people aren't as open about sex as are people in most other countries. So Christina getting "dirrty" is kinda like giving candy to a little kid. Let's just say it can trigger a drooling effect. I'll have to admit that I'm biased in this specific example. Christina can sing really well. On the other hand, I hate Britney because she can't sing at all. I think it is okay to cash in on looks a little bit if you have true talent. Sometimes it is the only way to break through in such a tough business.

There's more, but I'm tired of typing.

[Juu]

[color=ff00cc] [size=1]I used to absolutely love listening to 'Bring Me to Life- Evanescence' and 'Girl's Not Grey- AFI' before they went mainstream. They're still my favorite songs, but they kinda lose their 'flavor' once they're played over and over on MTV and the radio.

I listen to J-pop/rock and K-pop often, and alot of people tell me it's too pop-ish for their taste. I'm prolly one of the few people who actually don't mind listening to pop, though. -_-; Pop isn't my favorite genre, in fact, I actually prefer Rock, even though I'm Asian. Though, pop is the most popular in Korea, even though alot of them have raps, and bits of English in them.

...*hides under desk* xx;[/color] [/size]

[Manic Webb]

That's one genre I sorta listen to that I always forget to mention... K-pop. Everyweek, I watch Music Video Heaven on the international channel, and they show only Korean music videos. I feel kind of weird talking about K-pop, because, well, I'm African-American. I'm one of the last people you'd expect to listen to K-pop.

And that's where that darned image/appearance thing comes in, again. I should have no problem talking about K-pop, but I always feel nervous about it because I'm not Korean.