Anyone here wiccan?

[Change]

You do meen Joe Pesci, right?

[wiccansamurai]

sum1 at school is annoyin me, sayin im a evil witch... stoopid kids.

[wiccansamurai]

wat kind of spells do u think cross the line? like love spells? i think they go way to far, unless its a true lovce spell. but healing spells r fine as long as you hav permission. wats ur opinion?

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wiccansamurai[/i] (spelling amended)
[B]what kind of spells do you think cross the line? Like love spells? I think they go way too far, unless it's a true love spell. But healing spells are fine as long as you have permission. what's your opinion?[/B][/QUOTE]

I'll tell you my opinion, but bear in mind that it is my opinion and therefore you have the right to ignore it if you want.

I'm a pretty open Christian, and I tend to take the scriptures of Christianity seriously. So I belive that any form of usage of magic is wrong.

Now, before you reply back with "but we only use it for good", bear in mind that that's [i]not what I said[/i]. There are a [b]lot[/b] of perfectly well-intentioned people out there, who unfortunately do things wrong. Having a pure intent is no guarantee that you're doing the right thing.

Think of it this way:

God created everything. Including magic. Now, magic isn't an Earthly force so much as it's a spiritual or heavenly one (if you believe it is real). We are [i]not[/i] heavenly beings, but we are Earthly ones, with all the imperfections that come with that.

Now, if you pray for healing, it doesn't require any kind of power, control, or knowledge of what we're doing, because God knows what he's doing, so we simply ask him to do it. Heavenly things, like magic, were not meant for us to take any control over, because we simply can't be trusted, and even if our intentions are pure, we lack so much knowledge that God and the other heavenly beings have, that neither we nor God can possibly trust our own judgement on whether something is alright, if you intend only to do good.



So yeah, I don't really care about your intentions [i]at all[/i], because that's not the point I make whan I say that "magic is prohibited by scripture".



Oh and please, don't take this as a bashing of the Wiccan religion.. I completely respect your freedom to do what you want, however you did ask for opinions ;) and those are mine. You don't have to agree with them.

[Guest cloricus]

UH UH UH! *Waves hands*
Did God make my pc too!?

...Of course he didn't, I did. Now you might say that he "made me" and the parts in my computer in some indirect way. Which I can accept as being a logic belief that you may hold. But magic was created by groups of people, instead of believing in a god they had other systems with spirits and "higher" being, spells were ways of reaching them. The equivalent of praying if you will.

So god might of created the people that started magic, (which never in fact started, it was just added onto slowly for thousands of years. AFAIK) but he did not in fact start it.
(Btw you say anything different and you?re stepping into the nice little tangle of "God gives us free will".) :) :devil:

So basically your first section of that post is inaccurate in my opinion.
(I'm open to a come back?)

Wiccansamurai personally I think you should never attempt any spells. Though I have no problem with [i]true[/i] wiccan's practising their religion, I apply limitations to that. (:P)

Eps - Bleh...!

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by cloricus [/i]
[B]So god might of created the people that started magic, (which never in fact started, it was just added onto slowly for thousands of years. AFAIK) but he did not in fact start it.
(Btw you say anything different and you?re stepping into the nice little tangle of "God gives us free will".) :) :devil:[/B][/QUOTE]

I didn't mean God made people follow magic, or that he inspired the ones who did start following it.

Following magic itself is a human thing. According to Semjaza (I don't personally know) the apocrypha says that some angels showed humanity how to use magic. But whether that's true or not I don't know.

The point is, that the act of [i]using[/i] magic was created by man, but magic itself was not. How exactly can man create magic, I mean, how can man create the sheer power behind it? He can't. The point is that whether you believe the Wiccan religion or Christianity, or any other religion, magic doesn't make any sense without a higher being of [i]some[/i] sort, otherwise why would it work at all?

I mean, people can say spells, and sometimes some right weird stuff can happen.. but how would that happen if magic wasn't there to start with? People simply can't make that sort of thing in the natural world we live in. Make it [i]up[/i], maybe, but not turn it into substance.

[wiccansamurai]

i dont do spells unless it is really important. my kitty was near dying. her mother had died when she had just barely shed her embilica cord, and she was refusing the bottle i was trying to give to her (BTW, i wasnt a newbie at bottle feeding kittens, this was my fourth) so i did a healing spell. spells, Dues, are, in actuality, praying. think back a few hundred years. even christianms lit incense and did other things when praying, so its not all that different from christianity. In fact, i believe in gods as being sumthing likie a really big diamond. theyt are all facets of this diamond. there is no "right" or "wrong" way, every1 has a chance to co-exist.

[Semjaza]

If you follow the stories and legends and parts of the Apocrypha, then yes... Humans were shown magic by angels, when they shouldn't have been. It was a "secret" of Heaven, just like many other things. However, those books are mostly forgotten and left out for a reason and I wouldn't hold anyone to them. I'm not sure what their "magic" entailed, but it is mentioned.

Other than that, all the magic the Bible mentions that I know of is not used for good purposes (I'm probably wrong, but who knows). For example, there are magicians that create snakes to go against Moses's snake created from his staff. Of course, Moses's snake won out.

Regardless most magic involves some higher being in some fashion, or at least some aspect of it. You're basically 'praying' to something, whether it be some god or otherwise. I don't really think it's something any Christian (or most any religion of that sort) would want to be involved in for various reasons.

Every culture has had magic in it. I personally don't really believe in it. I've read up on elementals, familiars, curses, charms and everything else... and it doesn't float with me. If other people want to believe it, that's their choice and it's fine with me. I'll respect it at the least heh.

[wiccansamurai]

its not magic, really. its the power our goddess grants us. its just prayer.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wiccansamurai [/i]
[B]its not magic, really. its the power our goddess grants us. its just prayer. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not in the sense that I mean.

Christian prayer for things such as healing is not a power that God grants us to use ourselves, but it is asking God to use his power for us. I think there's a bit of a difference between the two. If a Christian prays for something bad to happen that God's against, then it won't because God is in control as to whether our prayers are answered. However the sheer fact that there's a wiccan code what when you should and shouldn't use spells (or somewthing like that) implies that you have some control over the power itself.

So yeah, it's kind of like prayer I suppose, but at the same time you have some control over what actually happens (as opposed to just asking it to happen), so it's a bit different.

I define "spells" as magic.. but then, I guess it's debatable.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wiccansamurai [/i]
[B]spells, Dues, are, in actuality, praying. think back a few hundred years. even christianms lit incense and did other things when praying, so its not all that different from christianity.[/B][/QUOTE]

As I said, the only thing that makes spells slightly different and in the "magic" category (in my view, but you don't have to think that if you don't want to) is the fact that Wiccans seem to ultimately have some control over the outcome. More than in Christian prayer anyway. When Christians pray, we just kind of ask that God does something (not empowering us) and wait and see if he does it. At the end of the day it's all up to God whether he answers, and if he does, we have no control over the outcome of that.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wiccansamurai [/i]
[B]In fact, i believe in gods as being sumthing likie a really big diamond. theyt are all facets of this diamond. There is no "right" or "wrong" way, every1 has a chance to co-exist.[/B][/QUOTE]

Being a human, how can you possibly expect to accurately speculate the nature of God? The (main) reason there is such a widespread view that "All the religions are just different views on the same thing" is the concept of relativism.

The concept of relativism goes something like this:

"All truths are relative, there is no absolute truth"

Which quite frankly, I think is a load of rubbish. A common argument against it is "if there is no absolute truth, how can you say that there is no absolute, for that in itself is an absolute", but heh.. that's kind of over-used as it is.

Think of it this way, If there are no absolutes:

there is a God, because so many believe in him, and yet at the same time there isn't, because so many don't.

The Earth is flat, purely because some people still believe it is.

Evolution is correct, and yet at the same time it isn't, because some people believe either way

Christianity is correct and Islam is wrong, and yet at the same time Islam is correct and Christianity is wrong (the two do NOT worship the same god; I've seen both Christians AND Muslims say this)



Don't be so foolish as to fall for relativistic crap. If there is no "wrong" way of doing things then I am perfectly justified in saying that my religion is absolutely correct in every way. But then that contradicts you because my religion says that others are not the true way. And so do most of the others. Hence in order for nothing to be wrong, some things must be wrong because the things that can't be wrong say that they are. OR everything must be wrong because they all claim to be the only right way.

In other words, relativism is fine in physics, with the general theory of relativity and such, but the whole relativism philosophy with regards to religion is a big mess that just doesn't work.


Now what I'm [i]not[/i] saying is that I should go around saying that my religion is the one true way and you must follow me or go to hell. And I don't do that for three good reasons:

1: It's condemning
2: It's stupid, and
3: It'll give people one more reason to hate Christianity

However what I AM saying is that while we should go around dissing other people's beliefs, at the very least we should acknowledge that in most cases (not all) if [i]one[/i] of the religions is right (ie. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism) then all the rest [i]must[/i] be wrong. And if the relativitstic view of things is right then they must [i]all[/i] be wrong, because they all claim to be the only right one. Thus, there is a quite clear right or wrong based on the way things turn out in the end.


Call my views black and white if you must, but in the relativistic scheme of things they're just as valid as anyone else's.

[XxmagentaxX]

I have a Ouija board, I used to use it all the time. But I have no one to use it with, it works better if you use it with 2 people.
I remember asking to questions and it would always say "Zap" and "Bye Bye Bye"... I dunno it was really weird.

My one friend used to be a hard core born again and refused to be in the same room with the board. Kinda bummed me out, cuz we had alot of fun with it.

My friend randomly said that she might actually see what its like being a Wiccan. Cuz we were at this spirtiual type store called Awakenings. But she has trouble sticking to things for long periods of time.

[wiccansamurai]

i dont think it matters wat religon is right, and which is wrong. if there is a god, goddess, or multiple deities, im sure they wont care wether or not u followed them, as long as your intentions were pure. that was sappy. ah well.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wiccansamurai [/i]
[B]i dont think it matters wat religon is right, and which is wrong. if there is a god, goddess, or multiple deities, im sure they wont care wether or not u followed them, as long as your intentions were pure. that was sappy. ah well. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's not the point I was making.

What I meant was that there can not be "no right or wrong answers" because all religions claim to be right.

You may belive that if there is a God, he or she doesn't care if you follow them or not. But at the end of the day that's your belief. It may be right, it may be wrong.

If the "no right or wrong answers" philosophy is correct, then practically [i]all[/i] major religions are wring, because they claim to be the [i]only[/i] right answer.

So it's not a matter of whether God minds, but rather whether religions are right or not. They all claim absolutes, therefore either they're right and you're wrong or vice versa, [i]whether God judges you for it or not[/i].

[Corey]

*rubs temples*

Saw this coming. A large religious debate. How sad that we all can't just have a nice conversation about a certain religion.

*thinks about requesting a ban on all religion based topics...*

[wiccansamurai]

[QUOTE]*thinks about requesting a ban on all religion based topics...*[/QUOTE]
but then we wouldn't be able to post our opinions!
ne way, wiccans NEVER say that wicca is the one right way, so you are wrong in that way. so there is hope for, me, i guess. man, and all i asked for was sum wiccans opinions about spell casting and stuff Oo:freak:

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wiccansamurai [/i]
[B]wiccans NEVER say that wicca is the one right way, so you are wrong in that way. so there is hope for, me, i guess.[/B][/QUOTE]

oops.. sorry. When I said "all" I actually meant "the majority of". There are exceptions to that ;)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wiccansamurai [/i]
[B]Saw this coming. A large religious debate. How sad that we all can't just have a nice conversation about a certain religion.[/B][/QUOTE]

We are.. however my opinions on that religion (which is what was asked in the middle of the thread.. heh) are based on my beliefs according to my own. An atheist's viewpoint is no less subjective than a viewpoint from a different religion to the subject of the thread.

The only difference is that atheists generally look at religions as "ideals different to ours because we don't believe in God" and other religions look at it as "a different belief on who the true god is". But either way the conversation is never completely objective. The atheist (or agnostic) simply doesn't normally have a similar specific personal belief to comment on, so you don't. I do have a specific personal belief, so I do.

I don't mean to inflame people or encourage aggression between religions. If that's the impression I give off, then sorry.. but I personally don't really think I've attempted to agitate someone anywhere in this thread, but rather to state my views on the matter. Just because I believe something doesn't mean you have to.

[Corey]

It's not that you mean to sound angry, but sometimes posts just come across like that. You obviously harbor a deep love for Christianity. When one is arguing their point, they can sound mean. It's something that just happens.

And when the topic is religion posts can seem especially angry.

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DarkOrderKnight [/i]
[B]It's not that you mean to sound angry, but sometimes posts just come across like that. You obviously harbor a deep love for Christianity. When one is arguing their point, they can sound mean. It's something that just happens.

And when the topic is religion posts can seem especially angry. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah I know.. I think I can kind of come across that way sometimes..

I'll have to start putting disclaimers at the bottom of my posts:

"Things said in the above post are from the opinions of the author and are therefore subjective. No-one is obligated to believe them."

(I sometimes have to write a longer version of that into e-mails where my personal opinion is involved)

But I do know exactly what you mean. Even if I don't mean to inflame someone it does sometimes happen.

edit:

added a disclaimer of sorts to my sig. I'll try to refer to it when my arguments get on the empassioned religious side.. heh

[Avatarofkaine]

OK this is starting to side track alot, not that that is a bad thing the point is to express our opinions. As for the "anger" involved in religios debates i can see where people get the idea and can also see that here the "anger" seems to have arisen only through misinterpretation.

Mostly I just want to respond to what i have read and put foward the possibility that as humans are flawed when it comes to the comprehensions of divinity then would that not also explain as to why our interpretations of religions differ? In my opinion the reason religions condemn each other is because of our inability to truly understand the "TRUE" being of divinity.

As for the original topic of wicans i to an extent adhere to the beliefs, up to the point of actually following a religious belief. The point of wican worship in my opinion is to center oneself with your suroundings untill you are brought into the presence of the true being of divinity and can finally understand all the workings of faith. Religion is mearly mans way of coping with his flaws of faith--- it is only something to fill the time untill we are shown the Truth.


Sorry if this is incohherant and you cant understand it, I cant be sure I understand it myself, this is just how i am coping untill I see Truth

[wiccansamurai]

^_^ discussing intelligent topics like religon is fun.

[klinanime1]

You know, while reading all these arguements, I realized that whenever I say "Christianity," people say religion. I don't understand that. Christianity isn't a thing you study so you can "do it right." It's a relationship with a deity, and you can't "do a relationship right."
I must say, though, that witch craft has become more sophisticated; people who claim to do good, or get revenge, etc, with their powers. About the Ouijia board, don't you know about Quantum physics? "Spirits" could actually, in theory, be people from alternate, though perhaps parallel, universes trapped in the wrong dimension while passing through, or near, a black hole. This could greatly explain some of the unnatural phenomenons that happen.