Anime Evangelion: Mind and Soul (spoilers included)

[Demondrake]

What makes someone human (or lillum :P)? Their soul or their mind?

People need a soul to be something other than an empty shell (Rei clones). However, does is the soul the only requirement? For Rei, who has the soul of Lillith, is Rei, not Lillith (Note what she says to mirror in morning).

This question was greatly influenced by Rei. :) I'm leaning toward the mind being what makes the person, but I just wanted to see your opinions. :)

Btw: When I say mind, I also mean memories :)

[Kwai]

I'd say both are necessary to constitute a human being... Rei did have a soul, but didn't have a mind/memory earlier in the series. Sadly, when her mind/memory began to develop, she had to die, and a new Rei took her place. However, since this Rei didn't possess the memory of the Rei before her, she was the same as Rei at the beginning of the series, which basically makes her an empty shell. I'd say the memories are more important, but the soul is also a requirement. Lets take a look at the evangelions. They each possess a soul, but they really do not possess a memory. They are not human. So whats my point? You need both of them.

[Demondrake]

I agree with both being needed to create a human being. :) But, there are some points I disagree with. :(

What makes a human is debatable. Kaworu (who is an angel that experienced emotions) is considered by many to be "human" whereas Gendo is considered inhuman (that cold heartless bastard). Evangelions did indeed have memories (at least from what I understood). That's why Yui, who is the soul of Evangelion Unit 01 and mother of Shinji, protects Shinji (shields him from blast in first episode with hand). She remembers, loves, and wishes to protect her child. So, are Evangelions human (Not lillum since they were spawned from Adam :P)? They do have memories AND a soul, but they (and Angels like Kaworu) don't possess a human body.

As for Rei, I thought she did retain some memories, or why did she leave the decision of third impact to Shinji? Well, it was my understanding that it was because Rei cared for Shinji and believed him to be worthy, but I could be incorrect (I've read to many fanfictions...they influenced me too much :P). Personally, I believe that the third Rei is NOT the same Rei as in the beginning of the series. She is herself, a whole new person. She even denied Gendo control of the Third Impact, so even though she is different Rei, the third Rei is not a mindless doll like the second Rei in the beginning of the series.

Just my input. :) Oh and thanks for replying. :)

[Syk3]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Demondrake [/i]
[B]So, are Evangelions human (Not lillum since they were spawned from Adam :P)? They do have memories AND a soul, but they (and Angels like Kaworu) don't possess a human body.[/b][/quote]
Actually, they do possess human bodies, from what I understand. In episode 19 when Eva unit 01 is fighting Angel 14, Zeruel, you will remember that Ritsuko said that the Eva had become aware, and was breaking free of the armor that they originally placed to keep it under their control. You could see an eye, teeth, and even a human arm. Later on we learn that a human is from an Eva, which is from an Angel, which was created by God in God's own image. I quote:

"Mankind found God, and they tried to pick him up. For that Man was punished! It was fifteen years ago, and the God they found disappeared. Then Man tried to resurrect God with his own hands, and created Adam. From Adam, Man created what resembles God, himself. That is Eva!"

I also believe that humans were created in God's own image, so basically, yes, Evas are human, but obviously a lot bigger. o_O

[quote][b]As for Rei, I thought she did retain some memories, or why did she leave the decision of third impact to Shinji? Well, it was my understanding that it was because Rei cared for Shinji and believed him to be worthy, but I could be incorrect (I've read to many fanfictions...they influenced me too much :P). Personally, I believe that the third Rei is NOT the same Rei as in the beginning of the series. She is herself, a whole new person. She even denied Gendo control of the Third Impact, so even though she is different Rei, the third Rei is not a mindless doll like the second Rei in the beginning of the series.[/b][/quote]
Eh, I don't think this Rei has any previous memories. It was a brand new Rei out of that tank, and has nothing to do with the old one. As far as I'm concerned, there are 3 Reis. The first one died as a child at the hands of Ritusko's mother, the second died by killing herself for Shinji against Armisael, and the third one that made an appearence after this.

[Demondrake]

Hmm. I didn't think of it that way Syk3...however, Evangelions ARE made from Adam and humans from Lillith. Not to mention that humans are incapable of utilizing an external AT field for purposes other than holding a physical form and not dissolving into lcl (I may be wrong once again). Evangelions and Angels (as in 1-17...not 18th :P) are capable of more than that, as proof of the use of the AT field as a shield, and as a psychological weapon (Arael). I don't see how simply creating a bigger human would allow the being to be capable of using it's AT field for more than just a physical form.

As for the thing about Rei, can you explain to me why Rei chose Shinji as the person to control the third impact? Rei had to have some prior knowledge of Shinji, since she wouldn't just randomly chose him...and from what I understand, the third Rei and Shinji did not converse that much. That's why I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the third Rei did retain SOME of her past memories (synching between the second Rei and the dummy system). Perhaps that idea is from reading way too much Evangelion fanfiction. :P

Please enlighten me. :) Evangelion is a confusing series, so the more light, the less I am left in the dark. :)

[kiddy_phenil]

(3rd) rei did hold gendou's glasses and wonder why she was upset, so she has some memory of previous times, and didn't misato say something like the angels were humans that rejected the human form, i have ta go back and watch the series again, oh the nostalgia of just starting collecting anime..

[Solo Tremaine]

EDIT: Heh, post above got in while I was typing this one >_<; Sorry for repeating stuff.

The third Rei must have had some memories or at least some form of emotional input after the second sacrificed herself for Shinji. After all, she was crying over breaking Gendo's glasses, and she didn't know why. She would have had to have something inside her which knew about those glasses. Perhaps, as Demondrake said, the dummyplug created or remembered those.

As for the main question, you need both to live, and I think both are equally important for forming a human. A soul is the fabric/template for our actions, and these actions create memories which in turn help shape ourselves, including our soul. It's a self-perpetuating circle of events.

I think the Evas possessed souls and memories to some extent, but not enough for them to form true human consciousnesses. Else they would be wandering around and having conversations with people, most likely.

[kiddy_phenil]

yeah, evas have just about enough awareness to get pissed off, go berserk, and eat an angel.. oh, and stop stuff from falling on shinji...

[Demondrake]

I'm glad people agree with me about the third Rei having some memories. :) It would certainly explain why she chose Shinji to orchestrate the Third Impact, but it's only my theory. :P

I see that Solo Tremaine and kiddy_phenil agree with me that Evangelions have mind and soul. That points back to my main question. Does that make Evangelions human? They have qualities, but they cannot express those qualities like humans do. Whether or not they have human bodies is another debate. :P

Personally, I feel that mind is more important than soul, though both are required. For cannot something artificial with AI be considered "human"? That is also up for debate, as it stems from my original question. :)

Thanks for replying. :)

[Kwai]

An angel was granted the Fruit of Life, whereas the humans were granted the fruit of wisdom... Evangelions, I suppose, are the median between these two extremes. Kaworu looked human, acted human, but when you look at the series and the angels appearing, they try to become closer to humans(make contact). For example, the last three angels, arael, armisael, and tabris, all try to make contact. Arael by probing Asuka's mind, Armisael by trying to merge with Rei and Unit 00, and Tabris by explicitly stating that he loves Shinji(though I don't think Tabris is gay). And also, Armisael states that it wants to merge with Rei, so it also must have some kind of soul. So is Armisael a human being too?
And I consider Evangelions, like I said, to be a median between those granted the Fruit of Wisdom and those granted the Fruit of Life. They are like humans, but they do not possess the technology that the humans are capable of controlling. They also possess the strength, regeneration, and AT field of the angels, but they do not possess the S2 engine which provides the Angels with unlimited energy. They are like sub-human, sub-angels, bound by human technology, by the armor that Ritsuko admits controls and binds the Eva.
Rei? Rei and Kaoru is the same, but Rei has multiple copies, while Kaoru has only one. (Remember Kaoru says that he is the same as Rei). So if we say Kaoru is an angel, then Rei is? And about Rei giving the third impact to Shinji, I think she did not retain the full memories, but she had some bits and fragments of what passed.
And Gendo is inhuman? I completely disagree. His extreme coldness against Shinji was basically done due to his extreme love for Yui. Gendo, at the end, admits that he was afraid of Shinji because Shinji loved him, and he feared that he was unworthy of being loved. Same as Shinji being afraid of others loving him. He is basically like Shinji(Doh they are family), but a bit more colder, calculating, and grown up.
Eh... if this seemed like rambling, then I will try to correct it... later...

[Demondrake]

Hmm. Evangelions as a median between both Angels and human? Interesting concept (I like :)). However, I see Evangelions as closer to Angels (excluding the 18th) than that of humans. Evangelions ARE clones of Adam (excluding Unit 01), not a human, and some have S2 organs (Unit 01, 04-13).

As for Armisael having a soul, that is my question. :) Armisael has a mind and a soul, but is that considered human? What makes something human? We never learn much about Armisael though. :( The only angels we really learn about and get to know are Kaworu and Rei. :(

As for Rei, Rei is physically a combination of angel and human (human body with S2 organ and Angel Soul). Once again, my question is raised on whether or not Rei is human. She has memories and she has a soul.

As for Gendo, I personally feel that although he has a motive behind his actions, his actions are inhuman. Thus, I stated that he was inhuman. If Hitler had a very good reason for the Holocaust, would you consider him inhuman or human? But that's another topic. :P

Bah, on a side note, I realized that 1+2+4=7. Unit 00 has 1 eye. Unit 01 has 2 eyes. Unit 02 has 4 eyes. Add them up and you have the number of eyes that Lillith has. :P

[Kwai]

I do not think Rei possessed an S2 organ... her body is also bound together by a weak AT field which slowly begins to fall apart in the end. And you forgot to include Eva #3 which still counts... that makes it 9 so hah =P.
It all becomes what YOU consider to be human. Asking others whether Rei is human or if Armisael is human really won't help you find any answer. We all have our own interpretations and it will be impossible to find the one true interpretation.

[Demondrake]

I'm not looking for an answer. I'm looking for opinions, as I have my own. It's nice to discuss what other people feel about such. After reading other opinions, I may change my own in time. :)

Bah. Unit 3 was only used for what? One episode? :P So I didn't include it. :P

As for Rei having an S2 organ, I must have read too much fanfiction and it got my brain mixed up. :P Most fanfictions that deal with Rei as an angel have her utilizing an S2 organ. :P

[Kwai]

If the Evangelion Manga is out in the U.S., you should definitely give it a read. It sticks to the story line from the series, but there are a number of different events, and Keel and SEELE looks pretty cool too :) And unit 03 should be considered and Eva since it was actually piloted =P Just my opinion. And I say Armisael = definitely not human... 1) Look at that thing! 2) Primitive soul, compared to humans, more like assimilate everything in its way 3) Humans can merge? Lol yeah right. 4) Humans are not a huge DNA spiraled ribbon.... Those are my simple reasons =P (As for Tabris, my judgement wavers)

[Demondrake]

Manga? I'm really poor right now. :P I don't think I can afford it. :( If I can, I'll get it. :)

Well, if you include unit 3, then you can include unit 4, which got no screentime if I recall correctly. However, I based the 7 eyes thing on the main 3 Evas, or it wouldn't work. :P 1+2+4+2+2=11. :( I don't recall 11 being a significant number anywhere. :P

Primitive soul? So are babies not human since they are still primitive? And if Armisael's soul ever gets beyond "primitive," then will Armisael be considered human (answer will depend on your judgement of Kaworu/Tabros)?

[kiddy_phenil]

well, monkeys are about as human as the eva are really, minus the metal ofcourse. they don't have the same functions as humans but, as eva unit 00 tried punching through the wall to get to gendou or whoever that shows it has memories, and monkeys.. well.. they throw feces at people who were mean to it, so that memories i suppose.. and i personally believe animals have souls and the eva have souls in them, both are close forms, but not really human-human.. the seven eyes on lilith are the seven eyes of god, the three main evas are the three barons of hell, and why the orange one to blue, guess maybe it was just an after thought, someone thought was cute to get purple.

[Demondrake]

Monkeys as human? I remember reading an article about making monkeys citizens so that they could be defended by the constitution. Hmm.

Evangelions have human souls. That is a known fact, as humans were absorbed into the Evangelions. The human souls are trapped within the cores of the Evangelion.

Monkeys aren't spawned from Lillith, like humans, and I doubt they are from Adam like the angels. I don't know what spawned them (Evangelion does not agree with evolution). However, one can argue that monkeys retain qualities that make them human. I won't say anything about it, as there weren't any monkeys in Evangelion that I remember. :P

I just hope Pen-Pen survived third impact. :P (sees Pen-Pen with middle flipper sticking up at Lillith screaming "WARK!!!!!!!!!" because he lost all his beer :P)

Three barons of hell? Hmm. I read somewhere on this forum about the four evangelions being the four devils. One with the horn, the cyclops, the four eyed, and the one who can stretch arms. I got lost on that. :( Was that in the Bible or the dead sea scrolls or something?

For Unit 0 turning blue? I'm happy about it. :P It suits Rei better. :) It's farther away from red, and Rei hates red.

[Kwai]

Err... I read that the evangelion was the cyclops, four eyes, arm stretcher, and the demonic grin... i dunno if 01 is for horns or grin. Purple is known as the 'godly' color, and orange to blue? I dunno how it fits in with all the ancient demons and stuff -_-

[Demondrake]

Where'd you read that from Oradriel? I only read the 4 things from somewhere on the forum. Is it part of the dead sea scrolls or the Bible?

[Solid]

to start with the main quastion, i think too that humans must posses both soul and mind to "Live" might more to be than live... my explanation to that is quiet simple (and pls correct me in any way if you feel like it), a human must have a mind to think, to remember to understand and comprehend things, though without a soul he will have nothing to understand no actions to do about what he understands thus he cannot be a human if even anything at all...

though this rises some quastions in my head, people in vegatable state, can you consider them to have no soul? for they cannot take actions of anysort their mind does not react at all so do you consider them to have no mind? and thus can you consider tham human than?...

due to the show's point, the eva's are angels, just like human being. (corrct me if i understood incorrectly), we humans are the 18th angel, so we can be cosidered angels, there are 17th other angels, they are all taken in a group, (not including rei) they cannot be human, just like the 3rd angel cannot be the 4th etc... so i dont think you can consider any angel a human, thou you can cosider a human as an angel, though thinking again, there is a very thick line wich is prodably only the appearance of angels and humans, they too have a soul and a mind (for they know what they want), this might explain why the merigng between a human being, his mind and soul and an eva or angel has happened...

as for rei, i take it as there is 1 rei, her body does change and so does her mind and memories, but than how come her memories prodably... came back to her?, she is like a person that has forgotten his memories of the past, and after some time regains them, the fact that she changed her body does not mean anything in my pov.

as for kaworu, i think that kaworu is more human if not fully human... he is shaped as a human being, his extrodinary abillities are his specialty not his definition... he has a soul a mind hes a bit weird but i just cant seem to see what doesnt make him human (except him being called an angel and his extrodinary at field powr)...

[Ryuujin]

I think that it takes both soul and mind to be a human. That is why Evas are not human, becuse they need to be piloted(mind). Evas were created by man, using Adam. Adam is the man created God. Since Adam is made by man, and man is dumb(in comparison to god) Evas were made to be humans but they need a mind. When evas go beserk they become a primative human. The reason of them being primitive is becuse they were created by man. As angels..... I have not a clue. Angels were created from Lillith. Right? Where did Lillith come from? Been awhile....

PS If this doesn't make any sence ignore.

[Kwai]

Oooo i found a site taht says that the evangelions are indeed similar to the barons of hell... I will quote from the site...
"The Barons of Hell, are to explain literally are, the lords of hell. The Baron's of Hell were a legend of Christianity during the medieval times. It is said that one of them had "a single horn and great gnashing teeth (eva 01)", the second had "a blank, featureless face with a single glaring eye (eva 00)", the third was "the color of blood, with four eyes and two mouths (eva 02)", and the last "black as night, with unnaturally long arms and wicked teeth (eva 03)". No doubt these sound oddly familiar to the evangelion units."
Yup, thats them!

[kiddy_phenil]

oh, ok there's four of them then.. i never noticed unit 02 had two mouths before, have to take a look back at that..
i suppose that a person in vegetable state would be human still, it's a genus i suppose. i forget what they call at hospitals for a person to be legally dead, i don't think they check pulse anymore..
So a monkey would have the right to own fire arms..

[Demondrake]

Solid. I agree with what you say about humans needing both to "live." However, there is always the arguments about artificial intelligence being considered more "human" than most humans in the world. Just a thought. As for people in vegetable state, it is rumored that those people can still hear and think in those states, so I personally feel that they can still be considered "human."

I start disagreeing with you when you talk about Evangelions and Angels. Evangelions are clones of angels, and are similar to humans in some aspects, but not fully similar. From what you are saying, each group is "different." Well, all humans are different from each other. Some humans can be considered "inhuman." You can't say everyone isn't human because we can't be the same. I also disagree that Angels can't be human simply because they do not have a physical human body. I believe that what makes a human is mental. The same goes for Evangelions. However, I do not mean that all angels are human. I cannot put an solid opinion without learning more about what the angel is like, since they show does not delve into the personalities of the angels, other than Rei and Kaworu.

For Rei, the first thing is, she has the soul of Lillith, the angel of the black moon, which is the mother of humanity and the second angel. Thus, she doesn't have a human soul. However, my question asks whether or not, though she isn't physically a human, is she still "human" because of who she is, not what she is. The same goes for Kaworu, who's physical body is not human, yet he has a soul and a mind and emotions and personalities. He has insight about the world, about music. I am a firm believer that Kaworu and Rei are both human because of who they are.

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Ryuujin. Evangelions have a human soul, and (I think) a human mind. For in the first episode, the evangelion shields Shinji from the blast, though pilotless. Also, when Unit 1 devoured the angel of might and went berserk, Ristuko stated that it was becoming "aware" without its armor restraints. Thus, evangelions do have a mind. For them being primitive? While they can't talk, they can create an external AT field (not to mention 40 feet tall), much more advanced than us weak lillum. :P

Lillith is the mother of humanity. I think angels were created from Adam, but I could be wrong on that. No one truly knows where Lillith came from, but you can speculate where Lillith did come from.

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Ahh. The four barons of hell. WHY DID THEY LEAVE OUT UNIT 4? Unit 4 is the COOLEST with that silver armor and red eyes. :P And it can create a Sea of Dirac like the angel of the night.

A monkey having fire arms? Hmm. Pen-Pen already has beer. :)

[Change]

I'm pretty sure that The Dead Sea Scrolles are just an extension of Psalms. Nothing in there that Anno could use. It's more the name and mistique that he uses, creating his own version of the text.