Spinnelein Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I typed up a massive reply, and it was promptly erased. Grrr. Anyway. To summarize: The new religious bent of this discussion is very good, very useful. It applies well to Legato. Do you think Knives has replaced God, in his eyes, as Knives has replaced so much else in his life? I'd say so. Would anyone like to comment? More kooky Eastern mysticism - Legato makes a great example of the First Noble Truth ("Life is suffering" or "Everyone experiences suffering"). This extends from [I]samsara[/I], the Buddhist and Hindu belief that life, basically, sucks, and the joy in life is quickly consumed by sadness. It's more complex and less pessimistic than that, really, but that's the short version. It goes along peachily with Legato's world-view as well. Second Noble Truth, too: "We suffer because we desire." The main cause of Legato's misery is his wish to become more perfect in Knives's eyes, an impossible goal. He does everything to please and obey Knives, which only makes the Plant more prone to abusing that adoration. (Jerk.) Urm...I can't stand to retype the whole thing. "Friendship. Trust. Desire. Hatred. You are all flawed. You carry too many unecessary burdens. Only one thing - absolute devotion to Him - ought to be all you need." Think about it. Ciao~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Ah geez! I always control c replies, juuuuust in case. Hmmm, Id agree all Trigun characters do seem to represent a different human psyches (not sure if thats the word or not). Legato is the perfect example of the the idea that it is the human condition to suffer, then you die. Its like he wants to miss out the first part and skip right to death. I wonder about Knives as his substitute God. I also wonder how much of Knives motives he understands. He CANNOT read his mind, he was surprised/hurt/shocked that he wasnt told by Knives that Wolfwood had the role he does (and Knives didnt care that he didnt know, in fact he yawned). Legato always assissts Knives and despite how he treats him he does not falter in his loyalty, but what does Legato think of Knives desire to destroy? Fair enough for him to say "Absolute devotion to Him ought to be all you need" but devotion when you are dead...you've got to wonder what it is Knives has told him. He lives by every word of Knives even though Vash is 'His' species, his twin brother!! Does Legato see Vash as the traitor, like what Vicious says to Spike, "When Angels are forced from Heaven, they become demons" This interests me, how many Noble Truths are there? Could you list them for me? Only if its not too much trouble of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunde Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Since the orginal topic was why doesn't Legato just kick the **** out of Knives and leave... I answer this! After returning from my sabatical. I shall also complete my evil triumvirate of MKS(Mini-Knives-Sama! You know who you are!), The Midvalley Imposter, and me who doubles as a window into the blue-haired beau's soul. I proclaim to be a sort of psychic siamese twin... but not really I'm more just obsessed and insane. Legato, is a cool guy but he's still human. Still held within the bounds of **** and blood and pain. Telekinetic, telepathic and god knows what else he might be aside he is flesh that can be tore and sewed, and blood which can seep into the dessert sands, and bone which can snap and break. Knives is not however held within the bounds of **** and blood and pain. Okay pain maybe("My Leg! This... Pain... in my leg!"), but he's a plant who takes a full, point blank shot of angel arm juice from his brother and SURVIVES! WHen he's floating in a tank he has no time to worry that half his body missing and things like eating, and writing, and going to the bathroom. He's growing back entire half of a body. That is not human! Did anyone of your bother to take biology 1 in highschool? And if you did you'd know that there are somethings like getting mental powers from say an... arm that are just phisable. But anyways, we were talking about the bluebeau's mind not his body. Bluesummers is showing some signs of certain things... codependence, battered-spousal syndrome(BWAHAHA!!!), victimization, victim mentality, sexual ambiguity, and all the signs of someone with absolutely no sense of self. He refers to Knives in ways that suggest Knives is either his God or his Husband and that ain't leagal anywhere but Europe. But here's the syncher, Knives is an asexual uneeding and unfeeling superspecies. Heck it's not even like there's some ego to feed or heck even an ego to destroy since when given privy to a world full of humanities thoughts you probably wouldn't have one. Think of the kind of family that would drive you into the willing servitude of a man like Knives. Do you think Legato would know anything even remotely like joy or happiness? His world is pain and suffering; Gunsmoke is pain and suffering wrapped in a dusty package. He's just enlightening the masses and giving them a happy death final ticket into a world a whole lot better than drying up and selling out on a dust ball in the middle of space. Or at least that's how he sees it. Keep in mind that he's seeing it through the twisted perspective of telepathy. Think of that creepy guy who leers at you on street corners or the kind of women who have twenty abortions and don't even flinch. Think of the deepest sexual fantasies of Marylin Manson(or not... shudder) or heck even just your boyfriend. Would you want to know that stuff? Could you look your dad in the eye if you knew what he wanted to do to your mom down to the detail? Really? Well that's how he sees the world. Except for Knives who is more powerful so Knives is silent to him. Knives? sexual, violent, and tragic fantasies are unknown to him. And heck he grew up with it so to Legato sex and hate and all those thing you hid deep in your mind and figure it won't hurt anyone because it's just thoughts have been affecting him since a very young age. If I was Legato I would have killed my family and run straight into the arms of someone who wanted to destroy the human race because let's face it humanity had been washing it's dirty underwear in my head my whole life and I would want to kill them all. Heck I'd have been working on it already. Oh and Knives is a b*stard because at the end of the day Legato is just a human being, he's only a spider, and he's always a threat and threats should be destroyed, demoralized, or owned. Knives is just doing a very through job of all three. But don't worry I'm a total loser(Though I'm still getting some), I'm also very poor and boring and crazy so you can feel superior. I also deep down feel that Legato is not lucky enough to if he is attracted to Knives less in the God way more in the Husband way then Knives still doesn't really notice he exists unless the bluebeau has threatened that poofter of a brother biatch. Also I love you all and I hope i haven't emotionally scarred you or anything, Love peace pain suffering hotdogs cheescake. ~Sunde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Thats me told! That was fun ^_^ Any more opinions on Mr Legato? Emotionally scarring is just decorations for the mind and heart... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnelein Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Thank you for being civil, Liebchen.:p OT, Plant_angel: There are four Noble Truths (just plain old truths, really, but Buddhist texts and phrases tend to be translated...very literally...like you can find a "Glorious Sunbeam Lotus Jewel" sutra. It's very strange.) Anyhoo... 1. Life is full of pain and all the living suffer. 2. Suffering is caused by desire and unfulfiled desire. 3. Ceace to want, and you will ceace to suffer. 4. The way to cessation of want is through the Eightfold Path (basic Buddhist practices, the order of which I can never remember) It seems very pessimistic, but it's actually quite placid and nice. All about sitting under a bodhi tree of choice and thinking quietly. I'm glad to answer any inquiries, as it is ever-important to learn about our world. Ahem though... Legato-sama... Sunde, I hope you didn't scare anybody away. Good points, though. He's certainly a very dark personality, the deeper you go the worse it gets. Myself, I feel pity towards Legato, he's a good person just on the "wrong" side. His motivations are clearly rooted in a certian virtue, if you know what I mean dear.:blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Oh thanks Spinnelein, Im ever keen to learn ^_^ Are we suggesting Legato and Knives are on more 'friendly' terms.......? Or at least it is Legato's desire to be so. Ooooh, not so sure about that, not so sure at all. Knives sure as heck isnt interested in a different species I shouldnt think. Certainly Legato is a lot more interesting than I had first thought. Do you think in the anime he is showing some kind of sympathy with Vash when he forces him to learn to control the Angel Arm in episode 24? I get that impression more from the subbed than then the dubbed, but its his expression too, weird of him to smile that way. Even though he was probably just overjoyed at fulfilling another of Knives orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnelein Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Yeah, we were suggesting that.:angel: The support for Legato possibly extending his devotion to Knives into certian facets of behaviour is rather overwhelming. To put it bluntly, Legato is in love with Knives, rather hoplessly. It's also as obvious that Knives does not return this affection even the slightest bit, and if he acknowledges it, it's only to abuse that very deep adoration. Whether this is a religious or more earthly love is open, but my personal belief would be that Legato wants to be Knives's lover. Unfortunately the poor creature will [I]never[/I] get his wish. [kicks etheral approximation of Knives] For reference, re-examine some of Legato's facial expressions when he's talking to or about Knives in the manga - particularly the scene where Knives yawns. He looks so utterly wounded...let's all feel sorry for Legato-sama now... Tch, Episode 24 is just a whole other mystery in and of itself. Legato's gone kind of reckless and a little sloppy by this point, his mind seems to be preoccupied with shutting itself down. My guess for his "kindness" to Vash is either that he no longer cares enough to hate him, or that he has figured out that Vash will respond best to gentle, insistent coaxing rather than violence done upon his actual person. His job is, after all, to show Vash just how f'ed-up humanity is. Does pretty well, doesn't he? Sorry if this post is incoherent or excessively disturbing to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I took a look at that scene and several others with your comments in mind and Im still not sure I agree that Legato is in love. It would seem a perfectly reasonable conclusion if it were not for one thing. Legato's coins. Legato has his box of half coins and has something planned for if and when Vash obtains them all by beating ALL the GHG. It very well could have been a look of horror when Knives tells him of Wolfwoods job because its a screw in the works for what Legato has thought out. How is he going to get his coin if they never fight? I dont think it is Legato's idea to stop Knives plan (far from it) but I dont know what he is thinking with his coins, it may have been a mixture of this and that it hurt that Knives would not think of telling him this information. The coins do seem an afterthought and not his purpose from the very beginning so until he reveals what they are for its very hard to say how important they are to his relationship with the two Plants. It could be that they have nothing to do with it. What thinks you on the coins? Legato has a very strong devotion to Knives, but I dont think its physical pleasure that interests him, or pain. It depends on his illusions of how important he is to Knives, because really Knives doesnt care at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnelein Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Tscha, I always forget about those coins! I meant overall, there are very few binding factors that can produce such a deep loyalty - ignorance of anything better (Monev), need for revenge (Hoppered), personal greed (Elendira), and love (Dominique and Legato). I agree - sex is the last thing on Legato's mind, especially now that he's a quadripalegic. I stand by my belief that what keeps Legato loyal to Knives is a sort of religious-fevered love, something like the love a Christian has for God. However, Knives is a tangible "God" and humans do have trouble keeping love and sexuality apart; interpret it as you will. In any case, Legato isn't in a particularly good situation, as Knives has a very arrogant streak and seems to lack any sense of empathy at all. The whole thing is hopelessly one-sided. I don't really understand how the coins affect this. They always seemed like a decorative, last-minute touch to Legato's character. His place as the leader of the GHGs is relatively recent, only coming up after the July incident - he and Elendira had already been with Knives for years. (BTW, what do you make of the little rivalry between Legato and the Crimsonnail?) :confused: I would probably be much more useful if I had the illustrations to go along with the translations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Yeah, I was hoping you didnt mean sexual, I wouldnt see it that way at all, but love as a God, as a superior being, devotion and an admiration of his incredible power and his 'superior' mind is very likely. About the rivalry between Crimsonnail and Legato, its interesting on her loyalty. She has some kind of hope or expectation pinned on Vash but she knows Legato is a formidable person to make an enemy of. I dont think she agrees with Knives but she never seems to show any opinion of him (except that of wide-eyed horror when she sees him merge with the Plant, and who wouldnt?) I think maybe she feels that the immediate threat is from Legato because he is so powerful, it has been said that Elendira is the strongest of the GHG and only Legato stands in her way of........whatever it is she REALLY wants. Elendira stays loyal to Knives though doesnt miss the chance to take out her rage on Legato (book 5, the amount of bolts she fired looked a little overkill if you'll pardon the expression). Perhaps there was a time when killing and domination was appealing to her perhaps because of sexual prejudice towards herself but now it seems she has had enough and that the situation is not what she would previously have wanted. She may now see Knives as the monster he is and hates Legato for what he allows Knives to do both to him and humanity and hates him for not seeing this. Or maybe its a fight for his affections in which case neither of them have any kind of chance whatso-ever..... I wonder if Elendira allowed Wolfwood to board the ship to rescue Vash, or if it was his skill and luck to make it up there.. Its going to be VERY interesting to see what happens in Maximum 9....even if I will only be able to make a judgement by the pictures this time! If youre interested in seeing scans you can go to this site; [url]http://www.hojo.org/trigun[/url] It only goes up to Maximum 6 and there are a limited number of pictures, but its very intereting none the less. I think I might know of some other sites I'll try find the addresses and if they are any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnelein Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Elendira is cool, she just rocks! Had to say it...:D Don't they both occupy about the same level of power? Neither willingly takes orders from each other, or from anybody but Knives. It's just plain old rivalry; there's only room for just one second-in-command, and two people want the job. They can't really just come out and fight each other, because that would probably cheese off K-sama, so instead they settle for mental catfights, wine-slinging, and the occasional giant freaking spike {:blackeye:} through the torso. Legato probably worries less about Elendira taking his job than Elendira worries about Legato. He's pretty well-entrenched, and he rose back into power very quickly after getting squished, much to the Crimsonnail's chagrin. May I offer up my theories as to why she's with Knives? Like I said, there are 4 reasons people put up with guys like Knives, who are just generally unfriendly and a pain in the nether regions. Revenge, ignorance, love, and greed. Elendira's there out of greed - she knows that if she does a good enough job (and she does), she'll be able to buy a few mores years of life and the high standard of living she insists upon. The airship, the fancy dresses, the wine supply, and not to mention the fact that when Knives eventually gets around to killing her (as she expects him to do once they've "won") she'll die happy with a cute Plant-bishounen's face in front of her. :angel: I'm buying the manga at Otakon this summer. Cannot wait...! And I've already seen that site, thanks anyway though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Do Legato and Crimsonnail occupy the same level of power? If that is the reason for Elendiras hatred of Legato, then the fact that she has a number as a GHG and he doesnt must be a festering irritation. Both have no doubt that Knives will succeed and both want to be the one to be last to take their leave, makes sense. Like you say, I doubt that Legato has any worries about Elendira seeing as he not only has he got Knives brothers arm but also he keeps getting called back even though in Maximum 5 he does attempt to kill Vash (receiving those bolts from Crimsonnail for his efforts). Mucho irritation to Elendira that he doesnt die or get punished for this, even though daily life is torture for Legato-sama anyway. I might be feeling pity now, even after what he did in ep 24! Do you know why Elendira is called the Lost GHG? Wondering if you knew any background on that or if she is just as enigmatic as Mr Legato. I wonder what Nightow-sensei's plan for ending this is?, man I can't wait to see what he does!! (Not that I want it to end!) I though you would have seen that site, searching for scans was the first thing I did after I read the manga translations, didnt take me long to decide to buy it though -^.^- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillieFan Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Plant_Angel [/i] [B]Ah geez! I always control c replies, juuuuust in case. Hmmm, Id agree all Trigun characters do seem to represent a different human psyches (not sure if thats the word or not). Legato is the perfect example of the the idea that it is the human condition to suffer, then you die. Its like he wants to miss out the first part and skip right to death. [/B][/QUOTE] So who thinks what characters represent what different "psyches" (I don't think that's the right term either but it's all I can think of at this hour)? I've seen the thread where DeathBug compared them to Biblical stories, but I don't exactly agree with those theories and think there may be more to this idea, that the characters represent different philosophical/psychological abstracts and concepts. LOL, any amateur psychologists here? I'd like to see some well-thought and intelligent posts. . . :bawl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Have you ever heard of or read Lao Tzu's 'Tao Te Ching'? He talks of the three Epochs of humanity and our relations with each other. The first being socialising and working together out of neccesity, the second being a world of logic and mathematics (the point we are at now) and the third being the one we are aiming for, the third Epoch of Unqualified Love (doesnt that sound beautiful??). What Lao Tzu says is that the time WE are in the 2nd epoch (not his time, he was closer to the first) and this is the time in which we have to be the 'midwives' of the third epoch, hopefully before we destroy ourselves. That it is up to us now in the 21st century to begin creating this, now we have the technogoly to prevent starving and suffering, and bring the Great Integrity back into the world. "We're not just going to see it, we're going to create it" I feel that Rem represents Lao Tzu's theory of the Great Integrity, in that there is a beautiful world that we wont see, but the responsibility rests in our hands to create. Its VERY idealistic and would require the whole world to comply, but its very interesting to read ^__^ Its more philosophy than psychology, though. If you do ever read it, you will see how very Rem like it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lo Bastido Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 To me, TRIGUN is the conflict between pragmatism and idealism, with Vash being a bastion of idealism in what he sees as an ocean of bitter pragmatism. Nothing more complicated than that, in my opinion. To my mind, Vash's struggle was resolved when he realized that Rem's message of "never kill" was much more complicated then he always thought; at the end of the series, Vash (and the audience too) remembered Rem's words to the effect that our future is always blank, that sometimes we have to sin but all we have to do is turn around and start over again. [spoiler]So instead of being eternally tormented by being forced to kill Legato, Vash just -- started over. Just as Rem would have done. [/spoiler] Over the series' run, Vash is continually trying to teach others that there is always a Perfect Solution to every supposedly "impossible" problem, that there is always an alternative to killing; and even if it DOES come down to being forced to kill someone, that Solution goes by the name of Redemption. No heinous act, even murder, is unforgivable if one seeks to start over anew. [spoiler]Otherwise, how could Frank Marlon hope to live with himself after unwittingly crafting the instruments of his family's destruction? How could that engineer chickie go on living after she lost her reason for revenge? In [i]Love and Peace[/i], the man formerly known as the Grim Reaper stepped up to risk his life for his daughter. Badwick, the wayward son in [i]Little Arcadia[/i] -- he eventually found his own solution too. Even Brilliant Dynamite Neon showed his more noble side in saving the Sand Steamer.[/spoiler] All these examples -- which can be topped by Vash's own mini-redemption after his fight with Monev the Gale in [i]Diablo[/i] -- point to one common theme, and foreshadow Vash's own solution to his conflict with Knives: that the future is always blank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IloveBebop Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chou Long Kai [/i] [B]This is just a theory,but maybe Legato is the one being mind controled?Probably not though. [/B][/QUOTE] I have one question about that. If Legato were being mind controlled, then why did he have the power to control minds? Also, Legato calls Knives "master," could he have some weird thing about him that's connected to Knives. I know that I'm asking questions instead of giving answers, but these are probably questions that some other people want answered as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillieFan Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 And those questions were answered earlier in this thread. As for Legato's loyalty to Knives, the only hint as to why in the anime is that Knives gave him Vash's arm. The manga goes a little deeper into that Legato had some kind of preexisting religious devotion to Knives. Basically, for some reason, Legato is Knives's slave. Technically, Vash's arm is the only connection between Knives and Legato. Speculatively, the motivations for Legato's loyalty include everything from an abusive past to a romantic attraction to Knives and any possible combination of those and other factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IloveBebop Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 Oh, I didn't know, I had just come to that thread, and it was 11:00 at night, so I wasn't really much for waiting. A romantic attraction to Knives? I knew that Legato was weird, but not that weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillieFan Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 That's just fan speculation. . .before you attribute it to anything in the anime or manga per se. -^.^- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Ah, the Legato question, it seems there are several theories; 1. Legato only obtained his powers when he got Vash's left arm, however little sense that may seem to make. 2. Loyalty to Knives in a fight for his affection (because he is the only being capable of resisting Legato's constantly prying mind), either romantically or as though he were a God. To be looked upon with affection by your god, who doesnt want that? 3. He had these powers all along and, being the crazy stalker he is, thought it would be an awfully good idea to attach himself the left arm of his prey for him to lick and pet and whatever he likes. Saves a good Plant arm going to waste (My personal theory). Why he follows Knives though, for that question to arise we would have to be assuming that Legato has superior strength/powers to Knives. For that we would also have to understand just how powerful Knives is anyway and what his full abilities (physical and psychological) truly are. I mean, Vash and Knives may have some psychic ability (from activating the guns, to the little chat they had with each other in the last ep and in Diablo) so who knows what they are fully capable of. Whether this was tramsmitted through the severed arm to Legato, I find perhaps doubtful, but not impossible. So what is it that Vash and Knives know (well, maybe not Vash he doesnt seem to have a clue!) that they arent going to show us?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Wow, very intreguing (forgive my spelling) questions...I try not to think about these unanswered questions because I end up getting frustrated and very confused...maybe Legato cant control Knives because he is a plant like you said Piccalo..or because Knives and Legato are in this together to get rid of Vash...as for Vash and Knives being (by the way I am watching Trigun as I type) plants yet they resemble the human body and systems, I think they were disguised as humans to keep the plant technology under raps..thats my opinion anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Hey Animangademon, Knives isnt trying to get rid of Vash, but rather persuade him to join his side. The reason he has assembled the Gun Ho Guns to do his work is because he wants to show Vash how evil and cruel and wasteful human beings are. He could really go to Vash himself, but he wants Vash to discover what he is for himself and decide of his own will to join Knives (Although blowing of his arm was a very unorthodox way of trying to get this point across!! But I reckon that was punishment for Vash shooting him in the leg in the first place) As for how Vash and Knives came about in the first place I beleive they were a complete fluke and the natural "evolution or mutation" (to quote Zazie's manga explanation) of the genetically engineered Plant Angels, my reasons for this, and my supporting references to the anime and the manga, were posted earlier on in this thread ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Yes, didnt someone ask if Legato "modify" Vash's left arm? Didnt Knives do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant_Angel Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Im not sure, what do you mean by "modify" Vash's left arm?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Oh, sorry for not clarifying that..someone asked if Legato made Vash's left arm and that's why he was able to control it..I thought he had it all along but Knives was the one who showed Vash how he should use it...Oh shoot, Im sorry its the right arm..drrr, I feel like a dork, I guess I still dont know my left from right, lol..but everything I just said I meant for his RIGHT arm not left, sorry bout that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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