Anime Legato?

[Plant_Angel]

After being crippled by Knives for sending out the order to kill Vash, Legato needed a way to get around, so he used the character known only as Legato's Bearer. She was huge, with pointy teeth and carried Legato about in some kind of sarcophagus with only his head showing. He does seem to have her completely under his control, hate to think where he found her... Leagato's Bearer was in his service in Trigun Maximum 5 where she also meets her end leaving Legato to seek a new means of travel. He resorts to the sarcophagus with a mechanical claw.....the first indications of Legato perhaps losing his touch? (not his power though!) He just keeps getting more and more insane.....

GHGs
Wolfwood (Is he really a GHG?)
Zazie the Beast (Through a second 'terminal' as he calls people, this time a young girl, older than the boy)
Elendira the Crimsonnail
Trip Of Death
Double Fang (two guys from the Eye of Micheal, a guild of assasins, carrying crosses similar in design to Wolfwoods......In the anime they didn't appear and instead we were given the two specially created characters Caine the Longshot and Chapel the Evergreen)

Legato Bluesummers (????????)

Hmmm, Trigun Maximum 8. (there will be spoilers, but seeing as you asked.....)

***************SPOILERS******************
Knives has started his rampage across the planet in an airship, cities are evacuating, riots and mass hysteria is ensueing, alongside a lot of destruction and death.
Vash, now fully aware of the powers he possesses, has been incarcerated after being knocked senseless by his brother previously, held in a cell in the ground on the airship for over six months (and looking the worse for it) under the watchful eye of Legato. Luckily he knows a good priest friend.....
Millie and Meryl appear on the flying ship (though havent been in contact with Vash, not since Maximum 6), Marlon gives Vash a new gun from a 'girl', Wolfwood takes his leave, hopefully only for the time being.

Wolfwood has his own chapter-long story.

Something VERY big is about to happen.........

Anything else you'd like to know?
-^____^-

[Spinnelein]

As an official Trigun Maxiumum nerd and Legato fan, I would like to give my two cents...

My partner in crime and I have staged a massive, ongoing psychological study of Legato Bluesummers (yes, we have NO lives) and have speculated to a point about the origins of his loyalty.

It's likely he's had his powers from birth, as I don't see how one could get [B]mental[/B] powers from an[B]arm[/B]. He was probably poor and some kind of street-rat, an orphan perhaps? Such an oddly-colored child was likely to have been thought of as demon spawn and not treated very humanely. On top of that, consider that one of the quickest ways to drive a sane person insane is by exposing them to unceacing chatter - like what an uncontrolled telepath might hear. There was probably very little order or safety in young Legato's life, and it would be a daily struggle just to stay alive, much less to keep from going nuts.

Perhaps Knives stepped in at some critical moment, having been attracted by the thoughts of the gifted young human. Knives would have recognized the untapped destructive potential in Legato and would have taken to training him to be another weapon in Knives's arsenal. For the first time in his life, Leagto Bluesummers has a steady supply of food, water, shelter, and someone who has promised to teach him how to modulate his powers. There are also some missing-father issues and resentment of the species that treated him so poorly, maybe? Nightow has said that Legato had a little sister; was she killed?


A brainwashed Legato, I think, isn't half as scary as Legato, knowing full well what he's doing and still doing it. He's bound to Knives by his own will and a sense of purpose that he lacked desperately in his formative years. Knives doesn't need to have "brainwashed" him; it would be a redundant effort. Besides, Legato stayed by Knives's side even when the Plant was incapacitated in the July City incident, which would have shaken any mental control Knives was exerting. That Legato did not leave his Master is telling. He is very much a willing slave.

That's just my opinion, however. Interpret Trigun as you will, but like Plant_Angel, I have read the manga, and I have way too much fun in psychology class.

Oh, I forgot:

As for Elendira the Crimsonnail...

When dealing with a transgendered individual, it is polite to call them what they consider themselves to be, no necessarily what their chromosomes imply. Therefore, Elendira is a "she", despite being sexually male.

[color=hotpink][size=1]PLEASE do not double post. Thank you. *QA*[/color][/size]

[MillieFan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Spinnelein [/i]
[B]As an official Trigun Maxiumum nerd and Legato fan, I would like to give my two cents...

My partner in crime and I have staged a massive, ongoing psychological study of Legato Bluesummers (yes, we have NO lives) and have speculated to a point about the origins of his loyalty.

It's likely he's had his powers from birth, as I don't see how one could get [B]mental[/B] powers from an[B]arm[/B]. He was probably poor and some kind of street-rat, an orphan perhaps? Such an oddly-colored child was likely to have been thought of as demon spawn and not treated very humanely. On top of that, consider that one of the quickest ways to drive a sane person insane is by exposing them to unceacing chatter - like what an uncontrolled telepath might hear. There was probably very little order or safety in young Legato's life, and it would be a daily struggle just to stay alive, much less to keep from going nuts.

Perhaps Knives stepped in at some critical moment, having been attracted by the thoughts of the gifted young human. Knives would have recognized the untapped destructive potential in Legato and would have taken to training him to be another weapon in Knives's arsenal. For the first time in his life, Leagto Bluesummers has a steady supply of food, water, shelter, and someone who has promised to teach him how to modulate his powers. There are also some missing-father issues and resentment of the species that treated him so poorly, maybe? Nightow has said that Legato had a little sister; was she killed?


A brainwashed Legato, I think, isn't half as scary as Legato, knowing full well what he's doing and still doing it. He's bound to Knives by his own will and a sense of purpose that he lacked desperately in his formative years. Knives doesn't need to have "brainwashed" him; it would be a redundant effort. Besides, Legato stayed by Knives's side even when the Plant was incapacitated in the July City incident, which would have shaken any mental control Knives was exerting. That Legato did not leave his Master is telling. He is very much a willing slave.

That's just my opinion, however. Interpret Trigun as you will, but like Plant_Angel, I have read the manga, and I have way too much fun in psychology class. [/B][/QUOTE]

That was. . .a great post. You'll be a wonderful contributor to this forum, although I'd suggest you watch the double posting as the mods don't really like it too well. Edit your first post if you're wanting to add something. :)

-^.^- Anyway, welcome and hey, that even got me to drop my old theory.

[Plant_Angel]

Groovy, something new for myself to consider ^_^

Thanks for the advice of those we know as tranvestites, I never mean any disrespect.

MillieFan plays Mod *(~_~)

[Spinnelein]

I'll edit from now on. :o

Plant_angel, I'm sure you meant no disrespect. What is and what is not polite when dealing with the transgendered can be very complicated. It's not something society at large prepares us for, ne?

But, ahh, Legato-sama... There are many conflicting theories about him, and not quite enough information. A bit of backstory from Nightow would be wonderful - but as Legato seems quite the enigmatic type (and probably would deny that he even had a life before Knives) we'll probably never know. Oh, well.

It's interesting to think how many people, if they had the oppurtunity, would like to be telepathic. However there are so many problems and sufferings attached to that power - imagine the disillusionment of discovering that most people lack depth, that people constantly are thinking disgusting, cruel thoughts. Dealing directly with the subconcious excretement of one's self is bad enough, imagine being exposed to [I]everyone's[/I]...

[MillieFan]

Sorry about playing mod, I was actually trying to keep a real mod from editing his post by telling him of the rule. -^.^-

That is an interesting theory. It's too bad Nightow doesn't do some kind of prequel/backstory or something (explaining, for example, Legato's past, the creation of Vash and Knives, and a bunch of other things the anime and from what I hear the manga never really went in-depth on), but I don't think he will and I think backstory will be left to fanfiction writers, who don't seem very interested in covering it either.

Blah. :p :smirk: :sleep:

[Plant_Angel]

Yeah thats true. If Legato does feel all the disgusting evil thoughts then he would harbor hatred towards mankind just as Knives does, especially seeing as on that planet there wont be many people thinking about love and peace in the state everything is in (even if they were the intrusion of their thoughts is unlikely to be welcomed).

Death to all and eventually himself is most likely his only release from the torture of having to live with that. "To stay alive is to truly suffer" He suffers when everyone else is alive, and because he is alive.

[Spinnelein]

;) I'm a girl.

Anyway, I've done a little informal study (emphasis on "little") on Freudian and Jungian psychology as related to Legato's subconscious versus conscious. The subconscious is the part that is very primal, instinctive, concerned only with the preservation of the individual at any cost. The conscious, on the other hand, is the cultured, logical part of the mind, the part that is directly controlled by the Self, while the subconscious acts on its own.

Say, you're having a hard day and somebody bumps into you. The subconscious immediately pipes up, "Kill them!" While the conscious shushes the subconscious and solicits an apology from whoever bumped you. When we are stressed, the subconscious is more likely to act up and be harder for the conscious to control.

With Legato, whose mind was constantly flooded with the largesse of other people's thoughts, the conscious would have been unable to form properly. The influx of foreign signals and the need to simply remain alive would have given his subconscious control of his Self. He would be a literal street-rat, a shadow of a human potential and probably mostly concerned with finding food. Later, after whatever Knives did to him (used his own powers to "fix" Legato's overstimulation problem?) the imbalance in his mind would have resulted in Legato forming a very classical proxy conscious, a very controlled and mannerly facade. The turbulent under-mind is still very present, along with the residue of the voices he heard, but he seems to do a very good job of ignoring it.The whole mess between his ears slips a little after he's crushed in Trigun #3; he reverts somewhat back to his insane mode.

I find it peculiar that some people decribe the anime-version Legato as "insane". He isn't, really. In fact he is extremely stable - just with a very different ethical code than what is considered normal. He's only doing what he thinks is fair. And, with such pain and misery that he's been through, the pain and suffering of another (which he can, of course, easily feel) must seem petty to him. He's more of a zealot than an outright psychopath...that would be Knives, now wouldn't it?

[Plant_Angel]

Spinnelein......I think you are my hero *sniff*
WOW you certainly know your stuff! Ive been looking at philosophy, but now Im thinking I might look at psychology too. Now I know a lot more for pretending Im smarter than I am, heh heh, I do try really.

People who suggest that anime Legato is insane probably havent seen his expressions in Trigun Maximum, now THAT provokes deeper thought into his mental stability.

[Legato]

Hmm. Legato is probably the most interesting character in Trigun. I don't know whether or not Legato has been brainwashed by Knives. I don't think so.

Legato isn't cruel or insane. One of the key points of his philosophy is that human life is all suffering. Humans are worthless and much better off dead. In destroying humanity with Knives, Legato probably believes that he is doing the right thing. He is ridding humanity of its suffering and preparing the way for the superior plant race. As far as his fanatical devotion to Knives, I could very well see how that could make sense in Legato's mind. The two of them have the same goals in mind. Knives is an immensely powerful being both physically and mentally. It would make perfect sense for Legato to follow Knives.

[Spinnelein]

Well, seeing as he [B]does[/B] follow Knives...:rolleyes:

"Legato", you brought up an interesting point. Bluesummers-sama isn't necessarily evil (I don't believe in such things as "evil" anyway) his philosophy is just very, very different from the norm. He sees humanity as scum, miserable beings who would truly be better off dead; the kindest thing he can do for another human is "anrakushi", mercy killing. However at the same time he [I]is[/I] human. While this might seem like a paradox to many, it isn't really. Legato functions on a sliding scale of worthiness, with Knives at the top and humans (especially slavers and criminals, who he seems to hold a special contempt for) at the bottom. Because Knives has "chosen" him and Leagto follows Knives's path, Legato feels that he is special and better than other humans. This alots for both his extreme arrogance and abject humility, depending on whom he is interacting with.

Ahhh, I have too much free time...

[Plant_Angel]

Hey Spinnelein, can I ask your opinion on something?
Its not really psychological and changing the subject a bit, its not about Legato. Seeing as youve read the manga do you have the manga too? Its about Knives and Vash's Angel Arms, do you think they have seperate powers? Vash uses the energy gun and various feathery type things, but Knives uses blades high frequency as to travel distances and slice so cleanly through everything. Just a thought...

Legato does evil deeds so he can be rated as evil, and whether his intentions are for the best is debateable. If the best means destroying suffering as a way to solve it then that is like running from your problems, burning them away rather coming up with a solution or compromise, but thats getting back to destroying spiders to save butterflies.

[MillieFan]

Hey, I have an interesting question for you psychologists and amateur psychologists: what differs Legato's motivations from Wolfwood's? Both have a similar ethic, somewhat similar background (or so it could be assumed), and that's just an interesting question. Both seem to think the end justifies the means, they just work to different ends.

[Vertigo]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MillieFan [/i]
[B]Hey, I have an interesting question for you psychologists and amateur psychologists: what differs Legato's motivations from Wolfwood's? Both have a similar ethic, somewhat similar background (or so it could be assumed), and that's just an interesting question. Both seem to think the end justifies the means, they just work to different ends. [/B][/QUOTE]
Legato and Wolfwood's ruthlessness are completely different, along with their ethics. Wolfwood thinks in terms of who is being hurt, and who is hurting people, and Legato simply kills because he can, and believes that all humans should die because they are eating up the planet's resources.
Wolfwood was an orphan, and so he grew up wanting to make sure that others didn't have the same fate as him. I seriously doubt Legato has a soft spot for anything but Knives and food.:p

[Plant_Angel]

Wolfwood has personnal grudges against Knives. When he shouts in the Quick draw episode "I wont let anymore children suffer" Two different meanings can be taken from this.

The first being that he doesnt want any more orphans, victims of slaughtered parents forced to live a life of solitude (loneliness)without secure backgrounds, like he had to. Wolfwood wasnt the only kid to be taken as an orphan and trained as an assassin (see manga).
The other point is that Knives actually slaughtered the December orphans for motives which are unclear (well, he either has, or it is a very real fear of Wolfwoods that he will, its hard to tell in the manga, lacking in Japanese vocabulary and all that).
Using Vash was probably the best way of getting at Knives whilst swearing an insincere allegiance to him, to both of them. Though he does eventually become friends with Vash this was probably unintended.

Its also very difficult to assume Legatos background, since we know so little about him its more difficult to assess a mind which is not the easiest to understand to begin with!

Wolfwood wants to save by killing, Legato wants to irradicate by killing. Whether this is because of similar childhood scarring is not something we can be entirely sure of, but I doubt that the death of those he loved would be what caused Legato to think it right to kill everybody. Its interesting as to whether he beleives he is saving people from the suffering of living in empathy for his fellow beings, or whether he has been completely bought into Knives theory of Plant superiority.

[MillieFan]

Those were some really insightful posts! Thanks! -^.^-

[Spinnelein]

Legato and Wolfwood do have some interesting similarities, as well as many glaring differences. They are a pair in that they both have attached themselves to the lives of one twin; Wolfwood as a guide (literally) and Legato as a follower. Wolfwood seeks redemption but doesn't know the right path; Legato has found his "right path" but hesitates at the brink of "salvation" (his death). Both hate each other madly, thinking the other to be a complete headcase/a pathetic traitor. Both are sinners, but then again who isn't?

Their situations are very parallel. It would be interesting to write up a full-formed essay, perhaps I'll get around to it someday.;)

Heh, forgot to adress Plant_angel's questions...

No, I do not have the manga, but I want it desperately and will buy it as soon as I have the oppurtunity (and money, hah).

Also, it would be easier to explore the question of Legato's "evilness" if you could please define what "evil" means to you. Does killing others automatically make evil, or is it lack of compassion? It would seem more relevant to try to find out if Legato has compassion or not, compassion being a feeling of oneness with others. I would say that he does not for most people - especially adult men in positions of ill-gained authority - but he seems relatively kind to the women and children he interacts with. He perhaps sees some of himself in their powerlessness? The idea is now up for debate.

[MillieFan]

The manga will be translated in English and released in the US this November. The price for the first volume is $14.99.

-^.^-

By the way, that is also a really interesting insight, Spin. :)

I say what defines "evil" is motive and of course the specific action. Both can make an action evil, although an action can be evil irregardless of motive (i.e. murder is evil despite the motive, the motive may make it somewhat more understandable, nevertheless the action of murder is evil) and a motive can be evil even if it results in a good action (i.e. if you're only being kind to someone in hopes that they will pay you back for your kindness with a physical relationship, then your motive is evil despite your action being good)

Sorry if you don't understand. :)

[Plant_Angel]

Hmmm, this brings back subjective and objective thoughts of philosophy.

Objective is what it is DEFINATELY right as conforms with our society, a basiic truth like Paris is the capital of France as an example. If someone said Paris was not the capital of France then they would definately be wrong.

Subjective however, is a like "Strawberries taste nice" which may differ to someone elses opinion, but in itself is not wrong.

Saying "Killing is wrong" however doesnt fall into either category, to be objective, a truth, it must be proven that it is wrong, that it is "evil" where to some one like Legato it is more merciful than cruel. Where as if it is subjective, a matter of opinion, then that makes it just as right to differ in that killing is alright because its what the other beleives in.

Basically what Im trying to say is that Evil is a judgement in whats most disagreeable with a society. Lets say executing a guy who has been accused of heinous crimes, say murder and theft. This will make both the victims and those who read about it happy right? But is it right therefore to accuse somebody and execute them whether or not they did it to make everyone else happy? They wont know they didnt do it, but thats not the point. Is it evil then to kill innocents, those with nothing to do with it? Is killing evil in itself when faced with the grisly execution Knives has planned? Legato has every faith he will succeed.

I would say evil is probably preventing others from making their own choices, from living their beleifs, but then that contradicts those who beleive killing is right, that being their beleif. It is most difficult.

Altruism is most defintely not evil, but how many people are genuinely altruistic? It may be a way of honouring some one to clear your own conscience of the guilt of their fate.......see Vash and Rem. Then it is still for your own benefit, but Vash is not evil is he?? He has a fair background of manslaughter though...

[Spinnelein]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Plant_Angel [/i]
[B]Hmmm, this brings back subjective and objective thoughts of philosophy.

Objective is what it is DEFINATELY right as conforms with our society, a basiic truth like Paris is the capital of France as an example. If someone said Paris was not the capital of France then they would definately be wrong.

Subjective however, is a like "Strawberries taste nice" which may differ to someone elses opinion, but in itself is not wrong.

Saying "Killing is wrong" however doesnt fall into either category, to be objective, a truth, it must be proven that it is wrong, that it is "evil" where to some one like Legato it is more merciful than cruel. Where as if it is subjective, a matter of opinion, then that makes it just as right to differ in that killing is alright because its what the other beleives in.

Basically what Im trying to say is that Evil is a judgement in whats most disagreeable with a society. Lets say executing a guy who has been accused of heinous crimes, say murder and theft. This will make both the victims and those who read about it happy right? But is it right therefore to accuse somebody and execute them whether or not they did it to make everyone else happy? They wont know they didnt do it, but thats not the point. Is it evil then to kill innocents, those with nothing to do with it? Is killing evil in itself when faced with the grisly execution Knives has planned? Legato has every faith he will succeed.

I would say evil is probably preventing others from making their own choices, from living their beleifs, but then that contradicts those who beleive killing is right, that being their beleif. It is most difficult.

Altruism is most defintely not evil, but how many people are genuinely altruistic? It may be a way of honouring some one to clear your own conscience of the guilt of their fate.......see Vash and Rem. Then it is still for your own benefit, but Vash is not evil is he?? He has a fair background of manslaughter though... [/B][/QUOTE]

See, the probem is with me. As a very overcontemplative Buddhist, my views of what is and what is not are just...whacked. Even with something as simple as "Paris is the capital of France", I see issues with that. I KNOW Paris is the capital of France, but everything in the mind is falliable. Everything I believe to be true is potentially false. In the future, perhaps, the capital of France will instead be, Lourdes. Then, the statement becomes false. But this has little relevance, I suppose.

In Legato's case, he has the ability to kill everyone around him - "every man, woman, and child..." but he restrains himself from doing so. What holds him back? Compassion, or something Knives wants him to do? In episode 15, he has to beg Knives to "only kill half" of the Roderick's gang. Knives wants them all dead on the sin of humanity; Legato wants half of them dead as a lesson. He wants them to understand pain as he understands it, and act accordingly.

If killing makes one evil, then Legato is evil. But that is not necessarily so. Actions are merely actions. Like MillieFan said, it all depends on intent. So the question would be, what is Legato's intent?

He intends to destroy humanity, because Knives wants him to do this. So, his intent is to obey Knives. This comes back to the original topic of this thread:

Why does Legato follow Knives?


Also - great news about the manga.:D

[Plant_Angel]

I guess as far as considering the world around us we must assume that our senses are reliable for perception, which we can never really be sure of (could go deeper into this but others have done it better) how can we beleive Paris is really thereanyway without going there? It was just an example of a basic truth, although perhaps subject to change in the future, that cannot be questioned at this point.

Why would Legatos want the Rodericks to feel pain as he does? Is this a grudge Legato has against humanity for not having to suffer the way HE does? I cant see how knowledge of this pain would benefit them seeing as it is their fate to be destroyed anyway. Maybe he abhors humanities ignorance and is using Knives to get at humanity as Wolfwood was using Vash to get at Knives. We've already seen his ability to manipulate Vash, taking the place as an underling to help some one with so much power probably would make this task a whole lot simpler.

(Great news, but Im still gonna get all the manga in Japanese, could be a learning oppurtunity for me)

Oh and I wanted to thank you Spinnelein cuz Im sure it was you who informed me, maybe not personnally, of the site for the translations ^_^ I recognised yur sig.

[MillieFan]

I'm guessing what I want to say isn't probably going to be welcome here (my reasons why I really disagree with some of that), so I'm waltzing on out of this thread now for the sake of peace.

The last thing I want to do is start a real-life argument, and what I have to say would do just that. I'm here to have fun and be friendly: not to argue. -^.^-

You all posted some interesting things though, though I may indeed disagree on some points. -^.^-

[Plant_Angel]

Aww, C'mon MillieFan! A debate is about argueing your side, your opinions are very welcome here, thats why this thread was started! Its all speculation anyway, we may all be completely missing the point, please share your view!

Please share with us MillieFan, please *gives the puppy dog eyes*

[MillieFan]

OK, here goes. I can't resist puppy eyes LOL. ~.^

As a Christian, I'm a philosophical objectivist. That means that I see the Bible as the objective standard for truth, and that I believe some actions, in and of themselves, are precisely wrong no matter what the motive for them may be, and that these actions are what we call "sins."

For instance, according to my worldview, murder/killing is a sin no matter *what* the reason is, because the Bible teaches the general principles that it is not for men to judge or take revenge, that only God has the right to give and take life, and it expressly states that murder is a sin.

Some motives for this sin may be better than others, but the act itself is still sin.

[Plant_Angel]

I do agree with you on that MillieFan, murder IS the most evil act a person can do and is not right under even the most extreme circumstances.

But can I ask you? In a situation you stumble across a group of men, about 15, about to be executed for treason. The guys in charge of court marshalling dont want you think any less of them so make up a comprimise. If you can shoot any one of the innocent villagers, then all 15 will go free. Or if you shoot yourself, they will go free. Then whats the right thing to do? I'd say a sitution like that is evil, very evil, but also possible.

Whether or not a motive for sin can truly be stemmed in good is questionable.

Unfortunately the Bible is not the truth for everyone (whether or not that is a good or bad thing is not for me to judge) so murder is a depressingly common occurance.


Thanks for replying -^____^- I like a good banter