Gaming Homosexuality

[MillieFan]

[quote]Again, my personal belief is that the act is wrong, but the person is not. I can respect the person, just not that choice of lifestyle. [/quote]

I totally feel the same way GinnyLyn! Thanks for your post: you said everything I wanted to and more.

While I may not totally be opposed to the idea of a secondary character that is implied to be that way, I am opposed to it as simply an opportunity for yaoi fangirls ::shudders:: to lust. If it could be treated in a respectful, reasonable and serious manner and only one part of the entire character, maybe it would be fine. but if it's as many of the portrayals are, just your token gay guy who's totally defined by that, forget it!

[Break]

[size=1][color=crimson]Does there even [i]need[/i] to be a love interest in an FF game; homosexual or otherwise?[/size][/color]

[Semjaza]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Break [/i]
[B][size=1][color=crimson]Does there even [i]need[/i] to be a love interest in an FF game; homosexual or otherwise?[/size][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you. This was going to be my whole point. I personally do call the love stories in these games rather useless, at least to the extent that they have in FF8 and FFX. It was a bit more subdued in 6 and 7.

Do you guys like RPGs for their gameplay or do you play them for their soap opera styled stories? I have no problem with love in RPGs. Afterall, a story needs to be told... However, I don't think FF ever deals with it well.

I don't know how many of you have been in love or what not... but the love scenes in FF games are mostly awkward. Sure, love itself can be at first too... but not to the extent in these games. Things happen for very little reason, and they are often forced to extremes of happy or sad for no good reason. The dialogue is almost embarassing to sit through at times. Who actually says some of these things? And on top of that, the barely average acting in FFX between Tidus and Yuna made it even less believable.

I'm tired of the melodrama between guys and girls in these games... I don't see why FF needs to address homosexuality in addition to it, which you know would lead to even more drama in the game. The love between the two guys or two girls, and the obvious problems other characters would have with it just because it is what it is... which would most likely be even bigger than them not liking a straight couple.

Videogames are not social commentary, and I just know that if FF ever got into that stuff... they'd try to make some profound moral statement and fall on their faces, just like in the past.

Perhaps this would work for another series... but FF is not one of them. On top of that, a LOT of people still have a problem with gay people (guys especially). Sticking in a homosexual romance would alienate a huge number of the people that play these games in the first place (which is proven to be mostly guys). I really doubt that's something Square wants to do.

As for gays being less than desirable people on TV... Well, just remember it's TV. They show what they want you to think - news, sitcoms, documentaries (at times) and otherwise. It's not as if most straight people aren't less than desirable.

[MillieFan]

Yeah, definitely: the love stories are always usually very weak or stupid. (though I do confess that I liked the Zidane/Dagger one in FFIX for some reason beyond my understanding)

Also, yet another problem with incorporating a homosexual "romance" is that it would cause even more problems for some fans.

As it is already, RPG fans and otaku in general are considered as somewhat "bad" or "dangerous" people by some more conservative sections of society. Having a game that mentioned homosexuality openly (even more so if it could be seen as "promoting" it) would only make our image 1000 times all the worse to these sections of society, and while some of you may not care about that, I do because the gulf between us and these conservatives is already big enough to drive a tractor-trailer through. . .and adding to it will only increase hatred on both sides.

[James]

[color=#808080]Well, really, I don't think that exploring homosexuality/bisexuality in an RPG is a bad thing. At least, we have to realize that we aren't necessarily talking about [i]sex[/i], but that we're talking about flirting/love - something lighthearted and usually the way in which Square deals with the subject of love.

I mean, you could have a male/female romance as the main plot but still have gay characters. There's no reason why you can't, other than homophobia, really.

Having said that, I don't worry too much about it. I understand that Square Enix is a business; that it has to be careful about these things. However, I also feel that some developers could potentially make games much more interesting by adding these kinds of subplots in. It can certainly make for a more intriguing story. But it HAS to fit into the story. Putting a gay character in just for the sake of it would be silly, in my opinion.

I'd also agree strongly with what Semjaza said. Final Fantasy [i]rarely[/i] deals with love in an appropriate fashion. It's usually so ridiculously melodromatic that it hurts the story.

I disliked the romance in FFX, because it seemed pointless to me. It was overemphasized and was pushed to a point where it became highly unbelievable. So, before we even discuss homosexuality in games...I think we need to consider how love is dealt with in general. Few games deal with it in an effective way - Final Fantasy or otherwise.

[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Chinchiromon [/i]
[B]it's the worst sin and im not even christian but god created Adam and eve not adam and Steve.....well i got the off my back[/B][/QUOTE]

the bit "I'm not even a Christian" gets me...

you're saying you don't believe in this God, and yet you point to the Biblical creation account as true?

If you're not claiming the creation account to be true, then you have no point whatsoever.

If you [i]are[/i] claiming it to be true, then I don't see how you can not believe in God in order fo rit to be true.

Or maybe you're one of those people who believes in God but doesn't follow Him.

Either way I don't quite see how you can raise that point. but heh, you did.


However, biblically you would have a point, if you were Christian. God created man and woman to marry, rather than two of the same (and I don't think I need to express the biblical opinion on sex outside marriage). I wouldn't personally approve of a game with this kind of dimension in it, because I believe that in everything I do I should honour God by respecting his laws.

However, it's up to you and how literally you want to take this stuff (if you want to take it at all).

[zidane11]

I don't think they would do that because the majority of the people buying these games wouldn't like that and sales would be way down. It's just not a smart economic move for squaresoft.

[GinnyLyn]

I guess the real question I want to ask is, [i]why[/i] do you want to see SquareEnix put a same-sex relationship into their games? As both James and I pointed out, media in general (games, movies, tv, etc.) have not done the best job in portraying life accurately.

So, without sounding spiteful (and if you think I am, then you might want to check your maturity level on this subject .:smirk:.), why? Is it because you wish to see SquareEnix support same sex relations, or is it because you are curious about them and hope to have some questions answered?

Let's be realistic here--when has the media [i]ever[/i] been true to life? Life's problems are not solved in half an hour, you can't tell a sad moment from a happy moment because of the background music, and contrary to popular belief, everyone is [i]not[/i] watching you. Perhaps you want to see a game that shows tolerance as a theme? It's been done. Done well, done badly, but it's been done.

My mom and I had a long talk last night about this subject. We both agreed that it is ridiculous that people think that homosexuality is a much worse sin that, say, lying. In my belief, it's not. And if you can just hold on a moment for my point (I'm not out to offend anyone, just make a point here), then I would just say that if I wanted a game that focused around a pathelogical liar, it, quite frankly, wouldn't be done any better.

It goes back again to the tv mentality. By the end of the game, all characters will have this obligation to set aside their differences, grin happily at surviving, and gallop off into the sunset for a happy ending. Meanwhile, back here in reality, we have to deal with individual thoughts and beliefs that no one but each of us can control. Pathelogical liars aren't gonna quit just like that. In the same manner, homosexuals aren't going to be accepted just like that *snap*.

I suggest, if one is either curious about same sex relations or wishes to support them, to not sit around and let some big name company afraid of losing paying customers to stand up as unsung pioneers. Go out and get to know people. Again, I have nothing against the person, and sometimes, I wonder if calling someone homosexual only further alienates them versus helping them stand out as an individual.

Actions are not a person.

And that was another long thoughtful post from yours truly. ^^;

[James]

[color=#808080]I think we need to understand that fundamentally, Final Fantasy never resolves any deep issues of society. Whether we are discussing same sex or opposite sex relationships, it doesn't matter. Whether or not Square Enix were to include same sex or opposite sex...it really doesn't mean anything. As I said earlier, just look at the opposite sex relationships we've seen in Final Fantasy games over the years (particularly from VII onward).

For the most part, these relationships had been handled in a clumsy fashion. Whether or not a homosexual relationship were included would make no difference on that point.

Having said that, I don't think that the question is "why include homosexual relationships?" I think the question is more like "Why [i]not[/i] include homosexual relationships?" And really, that has been answered -- it's business. Just as a company may not want to depict interracial marriages during the 1950's, companies today are reluctant to depict same sex relationships. That's really about the size of it.

For me personally, I think that whether or not the characters are the same sex or the opposite sex is entirely irrelevant. There are a few reasons for that. First and foremost, Final Fantasy (whilst still having a massive focus on story) is fundamentally a video game. And as such, it needs to be [i]playable[/i] moreso than [i]watchable[/i].

If the game plays horribly, it doesn't matter how wonderful the story is. But if the game plays beautifully, a slightly worse story can probably be tolerated. I think there are many examples of this, with both Square Enix and other developers.

My point is simply that if you had a new Final Fantasy game where you had a deliberate homosexual relationship between two male or female characters, I don't think it would negatively affect the game regardless of your personal beliefs. If the game [i]is fun to play[/i], I don't think it will matter much. And if it DOES matter, then I think you need to check your maturity level (to quote Ginny there ^_^).

Having said all of this, I feel that including homosexuality in games is no different to including other minorities (such as including minority race characters and such). Whilst we shouldn't necesarily go overboard and try to cater the minority just for the sake of being fair (and potentially spend too much time on that aspect, rather than making a good game), I still think it's reasonable to expect companies to be socially aware; to be aware of the diversity of their audience. I would say that generally speaking, you can strike a balance between both sides. As has been pointed out, homosexuality has been at least somewhat depicted in Final Fantasy before (though perhaps in a highly childish way, rather than in a mature/reasonable sense).

Anyway, that's my ramble. Homosexuality [i]will[/i] happen in games more often in the future I think, it's more a matter of when than if. But certainly, it's worth discussing these subjects at the current time.[/color]

[MillieFan]

Someone mentioned earlier that a character in FFV was. That got my interest: yesterday, I decided to check it out since I own FFV and played it for a while a few months back (only to find out my characters' levels were too low, grrr)

Anyway, the character that *may be* in FFV is called "Faris" and later on in the game, "Salsa." She's Princess Reina's long-lost sister, who when first introduced is a *man* leading a gang of pirates.

The reason I say *may be* rather than *is,* is that Faris shows absolutely NO interest in any female character (which she would if she were unambiguously lesbian) and that she could easily be posing as a man only because she wants the respect of her all-male pirate crew.

So on that one, I honestly don't know. It's up to you to decide.

[Sandy]

Oh, I noticed something odd about Faris too! Just go to [url]http://www.ffonline.com/ff5[/url] and look at the CHARACTER-info. In it it says Faris is a man (referred as 'he'). But if you go to the list of JOBS, and scroll to DANCER, you see Faris wearing something HIGHLY feminine. Could anybody clear this up? Is he/she he or she?!

Okay, this is a BIT off topic, but bleh...

[Break]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sage [/i]
[B]Okay, this is a BIT off topic, but bleh... [/B][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=crimson]Damn right. But in the game you find out that Faris [spoiler]is a girl[/spoiler] a bit after you meet her.

EDIT: And can we try and keep this on topic from now on, please?[/size][/color]

[Shy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn [/i]
[B]I guess the real question I want to ask is, [i]why[/i] do you want to see SquareEnix put a same-sex relationship into their games? As both James and I pointed out, media in general (games, movies, tv, etc.) have not done the best job in portraying life accurately.[/b][/quote]
[size=1]Maybe they want to see a minority-group get equal treatment in video games, especially since gays and lesbians make up a fairly-large percentage of video gamers. It is just the same as demanding that Square-Enix put more of a specific minority in their games.[/size]
[quote][b]So, without sounding spiteful (and if you think I am, then you might want to check your maturity level on this subject .:smirk:.), why? Is it because you wish to see SquareEnix support same sex relations, or is it because you are curious about them and hope to have some questions answered?[/quote][/b]
[size=1]Why can't a straight person want to see more diverse characters and storylines in the games they play? According to that statement, anyone who supports homosexuality might possibly be a homosexual. This is a very immature "Us vs. Them" philosophy, Ginny. I support women's rights, but do I have to worry about suddenly becoming a woman?[/size]
[quote][b]Perhaps you want to see a game that shows tolerance as a theme? It's been done. Done well, done badly, but it's been done.[/b][/quote]
[size=1]And haven't there been a million different games which feature a "Good vs. Evil" theme? Just because a concept has been explored before does not mean that it should never be looked at again.[/size]
[quote][b]My mom and I had a long talk last night about this subject. We both agreed that it is ridiculous that people think that homosexuality is a much worse sin that, say, lying. In my belief, it's not. And if you can just hold on a moment for my point (I'm not out to offend anyone, just make a point here), then I would just say that if I wanted a game that focused around a pathelogical liar, it, quite frankly, wouldn't be done any better.[/quote][/b]
[size=1]But Final Fantasy games are full of "sins." There are thieves, murderers, prostitutes, and witches. How can it be acceptable for a game to include black magic, and not homosexuality? This is a completely biased double-standard.

-Shy[/size]

[GinnyLyn]

Yes, this [i]is[/i] pick on Ginny day. Shy, you completely miscontrued one of my statements, and that isn't fair to me.

[quote]Is it because you wish to see SquareEnix support same sex relations, or is it because you are curious about them and hope to have some questions answered?[/quote]

As I pointed out in my original post, this was NOT MEANT TO SOUND SPITEFUL, and yet you still took it that way. I was not downing homosexuals, I was trying to tap into the mind of people. I know that some groups benefit in self-confidence from having supporters. I also know from personal experience that I tend to seek out others in my curiousity, which is why I brought up the second question.

I'd appreciate if you apologized, Shy, or at least recognize that you misunderstood part of my posts.

[Shy]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn [/i]
[B]As I pointed out in my original post, this was NOT MEANT TO SOUND SPITEFUL, and yet you still took it that way. I was not downing homosexuals, I was trying to tap into the mind of people. I know that some groups benefit in self-confidence from having supporters. I also know from personal experience that I tend to seek out others in my curiousity, which is why I brought up the second question.

I'd appreciate if you apologized, Shy, or at least recognize that you misunderstood part of my posts.[/B][/QUOTE]
[size=1]I'm sorry for offending you, but I feel like I interpreted your original statement correctly. Nobody includes the :smirk: smiley without being at least a [i]little[/i] condescending. I don't think that you were tyring to offend the original person who posted that, but I do feel like you were making an assumption without much information to back it up.

-Shy[/size]

[Break]

[size=1][color=crimson]I don't really mind if the characters are hetrosexual or homosexual. As long as they are uniquely designed and have an instantly noticable personality around them, then I'm fine with it (of course the game has to be good too :p).

PS. I smell hostility, why do you bicker so?[/size][/color]

[Mitch]

[size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] It doesn't matter to me if there's homosexuality in a damned thing. People will still make fun of it and people will still hate you for liking it and condemn you about it.

It's just that way, Shy.

Now Ginny and Shy. This isn't a big deal. You guys just need to mind one another's opinion. Let Ginny have her opinion, she has a right to have it. And Shy, don't get so defensive. I know this topic is critical to you. But think. It's only an opinion. [i]Personal[/i] at that.

And Ginny, don't get so defensive. Please. You know Shy means well. He's simply using your opinion to contrast and say his. I don't see the big deal. I know sometimes we're just down and one thing leads to another. I've known that a lot recently.

But please. Don't get mad over this. It's so small. Shy means well. And you do too, Ginny.[/size][/font][/color]

[Break]

[size=1][color=crimson]Okay, can we kinda steer this thread back on-topic? Everybody has opinions, don't get angry because someone has a different opinion, it's totally okay.[/size][/color]

[Mitch]

[size=1][font=century gothic][color=gray] *steers*

There's nothing wrong, as I said, with homosexuality in a game whatsoever. As long as it isn't sexually explicit. If it's some wonderful love story or something, that's fine with me.

As for how it would generally be accepted. I don't think too well. Especially not too well. There. That help?[/size][/font][/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shy [/i]
[B][size=1]Maybe they want to see a minority-group get equal treatment in video games, especially since gays and lesbians make up a fairly-large percentage of video gamers. It is just the same as demanding that Square-Enix put more of a specific minority in their games.[/size]
[/b]
[size=1]Why can't a straight person want to see more diverse characters and storylines in the games they play? According to that statement, anyone who supports homosexuality might possibly be a homosexual. This is a very immature "Us vs. Them" philosophy, Ginny. I support women's rights, but do I have to worry about suddenly becoming a woman?[/size]

[size=1]And haven't there been a million different games which feature a "Good vs. Evil" theme? Just because a concept has been explored before does not mean that it should never be looked at again.[/size]
[/b]
[size=1]But Final Fantasy games are full of "sins." There are thieves, murderers, prostitutes, and witches. How can it be acceptable for a game to include black magic, and not homosexuality? This is a completely biased double-standard.

-Shy[/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

Shy, I suggest you read some of Ginny's other posts for some perspective on what she meant, rather than make assumptions based on that post alone.

In fact, most of the assumptions you made are based on a stereotypical view of Christians and "homophobes" and the two being the same, rather than [i]anything[/i] that was in that post.

and with regards to the placement of the wink smiley, that was in the context that she was asking people kindly to [i]grow up[/i] if they thought she was sounding spiteful, not that it was in any way related to the question.

And for the question itself, it was a question. Not a conviction, ie. don't [b]assume[/b] that she was implying that the majority of people want to see homosexuals in games for one reason or the other, but rather it was a [b]question[/b] of why [b]you[/b] (being everyone) want to see them in there. Not an implication.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dan L [/i]
[B]

In fact, most of the assumptions you made are based on a stereotypical view of Christians and "homophobes" and the two being the same, rather than [i]anything[/i] that was in that post. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=#808080]No, I don't think so [i]at all[/i]. Didn't you read Shy's post in its entirity? I think he brought up some extremely valid points.

He was questioning Ginny's points and raising questions about implied double standards. I don't see anything wrong with that - I think Shy's response was intelligent and very well conceived. We should encourage this kind of intelligent back-and-forth rather than being so dismissive.

The idea that this is a "pick on Ginny day" is a bit silly, really. We are adults here. And in any kind of discussion, people are going to disagree and rebut other points of view. And that's just fine - let's not make this out to be some sort of victimization of one person or something.

I don't think Ginny was trying to single out anyone, nor do I think Shy was trying to attack Ginny. Ginny constructed her initial post with great care and she put forward her points of view very eloquently and respectfully. And Shy responded with an equal level of eloquence and reason. Why must we start jumping in as though this is going to turn into a bar brawl? This is a critical problem on OtakuBoards. The moment anyone says something contradictory to someone else, we start getting all flustered as though it's some massive assault/argument.

That's ridiculous. This is a perfectly reasonable discussion. Those of you saying things like "calm down/let's be friends/kiss and make up" are really missing the point here. lol

And Dan, I think your post was really way off the mark. It might be more appropriate for you to quote Shy's points and rebut them specifically, rather than accusing Shy of stereotyping Christians. I've been accused of the same thing when I've tried to bring up points about homosexuality and it's an unfair attempt to dismiss the legitimate points of view that Shy brings up.

Let's try to be reasonable about this. I don't want anyone to just jump and and throw around vague references and pointless banter. If you have something to say about homosexuality in video games (as both Ginny and Shy do), then I encourage you to participate. But the other posts are starting to really detract from this discussion and [i]they[/i] are what will cause any break down here.

So please, let's behave like adults. Now's not the time to get all hot and bothered over a single thread. If you can't just stick to the discussion and treat each other with respect, you won't be posting in here much longer (and most of this is a message for several of you, not just Dan).[/color]

[quote][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn:[/i][b]
So, without sounding spiteful (and if you think I am, then you might want to check your maturity level on this subject ..), why? Is it because you wish to see SquareEnix support same sex relations, or is it because you are curious about them and hope to have some questions answered?[/b][/quote]

[color=#808080]Shyguy's response to this point in particular is something that is being attacked unfairly.

Ginny, are these the only two options here? It seems as though people who support the idea of including homosexuals in video games are either people who have some kind of subversive agenda (ie: wanting Square Enix to push a particular point of view on everyone) or that they have some sort of curiosity about homosexuals.

That is what you said and that is what Shy responded to. My response would only be the same as his. It seems to me that you're discounting that idea that people might [i]simply[/i] want to see equal treatment of all human beings. Maybe that should have been your third option?

I mean, you did mention that you don't want to sound spiteful. I don't think Shy was trying to tell you that you're being spiteful and I personally don't think you were [i]trying[/i] to be spiteful. That's not what Shy's post was about. He was simply pointing out an implication in your post, which is something I noticed but didn't comment on.

[i]"This is a very immature "Us vs. Them" philosophy, Ginny. I support women's rights, but do I have to worry about suddenly becoming a woman?"[/i]

This is part of Shy's response. Why take issue with it? I think Shy's comparison about women's rights is particularly appropriate.

If I want to see a woman in a game, does it mean that I'm either curious about women or that I am really gunning for some kind of feminist agenda that I want SE to promote? Nope and nope. Perhaps I want to see women in games because I feel that woman have historically been treated unfairly and that all human beings should be able to be included in games. See what I mean?

Really, c'mon now. This is a discussion. Shy wasn't picking on you Ginny; he was trying to [i]discuss[/i] this subject with you. And part of discussion is presenting opposing positions and dissecting what others say (I feel like I've been saying that a lot lately - ugh).

Anyway, I think my post is pretty self explanatory (I hope so, anyway). If you guys want to keep discussing this, PLEASE do so in an adult fashion. We [i]all[/i] need to "check our maturity level" when it comes to this discussion. If any of you are unable to disagree/explain/discuss things without recoiling like a snake, then maybe these discussions aren't for you (and that goes for several of you, unfortunately). [/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#808080]No, I don't think so [i]at all[/i]. Didn't you read Shy's post in its entirity? I think he brought up some extremely valid points.[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Just so you know, I'm writing the majority of this post without reading the rest of yours, so I can elaborate on what I meant. Then I'll read the rest and respond if necessary.

I should have narrowed down my quote.. I wasn't actually referring to the whole post but this bit:

[quote]Why can't a straight person want to see more diverse characters and storylines in the games they play? According to that statement, anyone who supports homosexuality might possibly be a homosexual. This is a very immature "Us vs. Them" philosophy, Ginny. I support women's rights, but do I have to worry about suddenly becoming a woman?[/quote]

I know Shy raised some valid points. The point I was making is that I personally don't think Ginny tried to say the opposite. In other words, I see his points, but I don't see how they're counter points to what Ginny said.

I'll elaborate on what I mean now (I just had an exam so I had very little time before):

[quote][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn:
I guess the real question I want to ask is, why do you want to see SquareEnix put a same-sex relationship into their games? As both James and I pointed out, media in general (games, movies, tv, etc.) have not done the best job in portraying life accurately.[/i]

Posted by Shy:
Maybe they want to see a minority-group get equal treatment in video games, especially since gays and lesbians make up a fairly-large percentage of video gamers. It is just the same as demanding that Square-Enix put more of a specific minority in their games.[/quote]

This particular statement I had no problem with.

[quote][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn:
So, without sounding spiteful (and if you think I am, then you might want to check your maturity level on this subject ..), why? Is it because you wish to see SquareEnix support same sex relations, or is it because you are curious about them and hope to have some questions answered?[/i]

Posted by Shy:
Why can't a straight person want to see more diverse characters and storylines in the games they play? According to that statement, anyone who supports homosexuality might possibly be a homosexual. This is a very immature "Us vs. Them" philosophy, Ginny. I support women's rights, but do I have to worry about suddenly becoming a woman?[/quote]

The assumption is that being "curious" and "wanting questions answered" necessarily infers that you are a homosexual yourself. If not then I have no idea where that statement came from. Well how does that work? I'm not in the slightest bit curious about heterosexuals, because I am one. I am not the "average" heterosexual, because there's no such thing, but the point is that I go for women, and that's just the way I am. Therefore I'm not remotely curious about men who go for women, as opposed to men who go for men. I'm not remotely curious about homosexuals and their lifestyles as an alternative either, but that's personal preference. I choose not to be particularly interested, in the same way that I choose not to get over-excited about some things the way my friends do.

However some heterosexuals are curious because they see homosexuality as a lifestyle different to their own. One which because of it's nature, they can't understand on their own. Thus they have a fair number of questions about it.

THAT is what Ginny meant, not "Do you want Square to support homosexuals, or are you just one yourself?"

So yeah. That's the assumption that I was on about.

[quote][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn:
Perhaps you want to see a game that shows tolerance as a theme? It's been done. Done well, done badly, but it's been done.[/i]

Shy posted:
And haven't there been a million different games which feature a "Good vs. Evil" theme? Just because a concept has been explored before does not mean that it should never be looked at again.[/quote]

I think that what Ginny meant was "Perhaps you want to see a game that shows tolerance as a theme", as in, as a new thing. As "groundbreaking stuff" which hasn't been done before, and is original. In which case it's already been done. That isn't to say it can't be done again, but rather that ground has already been broken, so if you want it sheerly for the novelty value then there's not a lot of point.

However, if you want to see an increase in these kind of games as more of an equal rights thing than just breaking new ground, then that's not a bad thing.

[quote][i]Originally posted by GinnyLyn:
My mom and I had a long talk last night about this subject. We both agreed that it is ridiculous that people think that homosexuality is a much worse sin that, say, lying. In my belief, it's not. And if you can just hold on a moment for my point (I'm not out to offend anyone, just make a point here), then I would just say that if I wanted a game that focused around a pathelogical liar, it, quite frankly, wouldn't be done any better.[/i]

Posted by Shy:
But Final Fantasy games are full of "sins." There are thieves, murderers, prostitutes, and witches. How can it be acceptable for a game to include black magic, and not homosexuality? This is a completely biased double-standard.[/quote]

I think Shy interpreted this point as meaning "regardless of the kind of sin, the main character shouldn't have any of it", and then he thought that she was opposed to homosexuality in games, and thus saw a double-standard.

Actually, what Ginny meant was "all sins are equal". That's it. And that if you were to base a game around a liar, it would not be done any better than if it was based around a homosexual. Before you interpret that, bear these things in mind:

1: This comment was obviously directed towards people who think homosexuality is a sin, and
2: It's also obviously directed towards people who view it as one of the "big sins"

Hence when she said it's on equal ground with lying and such, she is essentially saying they're wrong on that.

OK, so she views homosexuality as a sin, despite that, but she never said it should be excluded from FF games. The most that Ginny has done is to challenge people's motives for wanting this aspect in games, NOT to say that they shouldn't be in there. The reason for that being that we ALL sin, regardless of how large, how little, or whatever. Thus excluding a particular kind of person from being in a game because they are "sinners" is absolutely the wrong idea altogether, because in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter [i]what[/i] you consider sin, because we all commit some form of sin and are just as bad as each other.

Summary of the last paragraph:

Everyone sins. Therefore to exclude a type of person based on sin is a silly thing to do.


At the end of the day, even though I believe homosexuality, or the act of practicing it, is a sin, there are so many other sins out there that we all commit daily that I can't possibly be on any higher ground than anyone else.

And even if I were to tell people that I believe homosexuality wrong, that's all I can say.. "I believe it to be wrong". Emphasis on the "it". There's a common misconception that if someone sins, that makes them a bad person in the Christian view, and thus as a bad person you go to hell. That is known as [i]CONDEMNATION[/i]. However, the correct Christian approach is known as [i]CONVICTION[/i], whereby you let people know [b]you[/b] opinion on their actions but you do [b]NOT[/b] pass judgement on them for it. ie. you can tell them you [i]believe[/i] they're wrong but under [b]NO[/b] circumstances should you say "you're going to hell for your actions". That's just wrong. It's called "judging others" and the Bible warns against it.





But anyway. Yeah. That's pretty much what I meant by "assumptions" and "stereotypes" and whatnot. I didn't mean that Shy necessarily intended to make such assumptions, but rather, coming from the same perspective as Ginny, I think I know what she meant.

Shy [i]did[/i] raise good points, like you said. However I don't think that Ginny intended to imply the opposite.


EDIT:

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#808080]Ginny, are these the only two options here? It seems as though people who support the idea of including homosexuals in video games are either people who have some kind of subversive agenda (ie: wanting Square Enix to push a particular point of view on everyone) or that they have some sort of curiosity about homosexuals.

That is what you said and that is what Shy responded to. My response would only be the same as his. It seems to me that you're discounting that idea that people might [i]simply[/i] want to see equal treatment of all human beings. Maybe that should have been your third option?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I thought that when Ginny said "Is it because you wish to see SquareEnix support same sex relations", I thought the key word was "support". ie. the same way that people support women's rights or equal rights for everyone. It doesn't mean they have to be pushed into everything just for the sake of it, but rather that they get the same kind of treatment as the well-established trends which don't need the support referred to.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#808080][i]"This is a very immature "Us vs. Them" philosophy, Ginny. I support women's rights, but do I have to worry about suddenly becoming a woman?"[/i]

This is part of Shy's response. Why take issue with it? I think Shy's comparison about women's rights is particularly appropriate.

If I want to see a woman in a game, does it mean that I'm either curious about women or that I am really gunning for some kind of feminist agenda that I want SE to promote? Nope and nope. Perhaps I want to see women in games because I feel that woman have historically been treated unfairly and that all human beings should be able to be included in games. See what I mean?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

There is a distinct difference between being curious about women and "worrying about suddenly becoming a woman". Which is the key difference between what Ginny said and what Shy said.

Ginny was merely implying that some people may be curious about the lifestyle. As some people actually are. NOT that they might want to become a homosexual, or that they should be worried about becoming one.

As for the other option, I've already said that I think she was referring to equal rights rather than an actual push to see homosexuality in games. If she [i]did[/i] mean that, then it means that only [i]one[/i] of the two options is a bad thing.

I see your points against what Ginny said if she was not referring to equal rights, because that would mean she was asking a question with only bad answers. Which explains what you and Shy meant. I assumed you thought it was referring to equal rights. maybe not.




OK. After your elaboration, James, I think this was more of a misunderstanding of each other's meanings than a conflict of opinion.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dan L [/i]
[B]
Ginny was merely implying that some people may be curious about the lifestyle. As some people actually are. NOT that they might want to become a homosexual, or that they should be worried about becoming one.[/b][/quote]

[color=#808080]I agree with that - and it's how I interpreted Ginny's post.

The point is though, these are the only options. What if you are simply a person who agrees with the idea because you're being fair to people of all minorities? This is something that hasn't been included as an option.

It's kind of like a "one or the other" type of thing. I don't necessarily think that Ginny's reference to curiosity about homosexuals instantly meant people who are bisexual themselves or something...or are going to become gay or whatever. I don't think that's what she meant.

But what I mean is, she's implying that you're either a person who wants to see Square [i]promote[/i] homosexuality (as one might promote a political agenda) or that you are curious about the homosexual lifestyle (which in itself is a bit of a misnoma, but that's a seperate issue). It seem as though there can be no middle ground; you can't be a person who is simply fair minded and believes in including people equally. If that option had been included, I think it's one that the majority of us would probably take.

So, I think the main point here is that I felt both her and your reactions to Shy's comments were going a little far. Your interpretations in this most recent post are completely reasonable to me. But your insinuation that Shy was somehow casting Christians with the same brush is blatantly false. He never made any stereotypical reference to Christians in his post. That is primarily what I was taking issue with and it's why I felt that perhaps you hadn't understood the thrust of his message.

However, you've clarified your point of view -- thank you for doing so in an adult manner. I think that what you've said makes much more sense now and I can understand your reasoning process. And ultimately, that's all I was after here.[/color][quote][b]


I see your points against what Ginny said if she was not referring to equal rights, because that would mean she was asking a question with only bad answers. Which explains what you and Shy meant. I assumed you thought it was referring to equal rights. maybe not.[/quote][/b]

[color=#808080]Well, what we're talking about is why/why not homosexuals should be included in video games.

Ginny's comments were making implications that needed to be addressed. And I think Shy did that effectively. I don't agree with every single phrase that he used, but by the same token, I think that most of his interpretations were pretty accurate. The "becoming gay" thing isn't something I particularly agreed with, but the options that Ginny laid out where, in my opinion, both negatives. I read them as saying "Either you want to push a pro-gay point of view or you are curious about gays". Now, if that's wrong...then maybe Ginny can clarify it for me. However, this is how both Shy and I read it - and I think it's understandable that we read it that way. If that was what Ginny was saying, then yes...they are both negative options that don't factor in the basic idea of fairness to human beings, which I was talking about (the "missing option").

I mean, if we were talking about including black people in games and I said "Well, either you're promoting African Americans or you're curious about the African American lifestyle", I'd probably be taken to task on that. Do you see what I mean? That's the kind of point I'm trying to get across here.

But, as I said; if I've misinterpreted Ginny in any way, I really welcome a clarification.

Having said that, I don't think that my comments on the subsequent reaction to Shy's comments were at all inappropriate. I'm sure you understand that I'm trying to maintain a mature discussion here, rather than a tantrum session.[/color]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B][color=#808080]But what I mean is, she's implying that you're either a person who wants to see Square [i]promote[/i] homosexuality (as one might promote a political agenda) or that you are curious about the homosexual lifestyle (which in itself is a bit of a misnoma, but that's a seperate issue).[/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

I dunno.. the word Ginny actually used was "support", which has different meaning entirely to "promote". when you support something you hold it up when it doesn't always have the power to do so on it's own. In the same way that women's rights would have gotten nowhere if not for it's supporters.

To promote, however, is to try and push something into someone's viewpoint, whether discreetly or blatantly. And that, I think, is where the misunderstanding (if it is such) is coming from.

When Ginny said "support" I interpreted it as simply that. Not to promote them or essentially advertise the homosexual lifestyle, but rather to support them in any way possible, ie. not placing limits on which characters they use based on their sexuality.

So yeah.. I think the key point is the difference between supporting something and promoting it. I support a couple of charities that I know of, however I don't go about handing out leaflets for them or anything (promoting)

[James]

[color=#808080]Yes, but what I'm trying to get at is that the implication is that you're either a "homosexual supporter" or "curious about homosexuals".

So it's one or the other. You might not be a homosexual supporter (in the sense that you don't support homosexuals on whatever basic level), but that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy a story that may include a homosexual character. Or at least, whether you support homosexuality/homosexuals or not, it's really irrelevant to whether or not they get included in games.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding or anything, what you are describing to me is what I already know. But my interpretation of "support" for homosexuals was like "supporting the homosexual cause" or something of that nature. Do you see what I mean? You don't specifically have to support homosexuals/homosexuality to be able to play/enjoy/accept games that include them.

I probably wasn't very clear about what I was getting at in that last post, based on your response. So, once again, I hope this clarifies what I'm pointing out. This was the interpretation I had - and obviously I'm not the only one with that interpretation. So it obviously isn't hard to draw that meaning from the language used. I think that all Shy and I are really asking is for Ginny to explain the meaning/intention behind that - and it seems as though she has done so to some extent. So, for me at least, it's not really an issue anymore.

I'm just putting forward my own opinions on what was said. And basically, the specifics aside, the main point of my own post earlier was to point out (from a staff to member point of view) that the discussion was getting unnecessarily immature after Shy's post. And that's the core message that I was trying to convey. I really wasn't interested in getting into a discussion about Ginny's specific comments - I quoted them so that I could provide my interpretation and explain why Shy's interpretation might be justified (or at least understandable to everybody).

Thankfully though, we have sort of gotten back on track. I hope that the discussion can [i]remain[/i] civil throughout.[/color]